UKC

We're off to the alps to bag ourselves a big lump of muck, happy days. For myself and regular partner, this is a fairly familiar process of planning, kit and skills reminders and it's a well oiled machine as my partner is my wife. Travelling as a pair we both have a crevasse rescue kit and the skills to use it.

We are adding an extra person to make up a 3 and the question is simple, should our 3rd man have his own personal crevasse rescue kit so we all have our own individual set u?. I'm thinking more from rescuing a partner from the top, rather than dangling in a hole. Many thanks.

In a party of three, whilst it would be most likely for the person up front to fall in a slot, any one of the three could. So I would say yes, all three of you need the equipment and the skills / knowledge to potentially secure themselves and prussik back out of a crevasse. Similarly, those on the surface all need the equipment / skills too. As a party of three, assuming the second person can hold the fallen person, it is often easier and quicker for the third to set up an anchor by the second person as required.

It depends what you mean by a rescue kit. Do you mean just a prussik, a progress capture and a pulley or do you mean something like the RAD system? 

If you all have a traxion or similar then you can make your rescue system quite efficient which can make pulling someone out much easier if they are unable to help themselves. 

The 3 person party does make things easier like you say as the person holding the fall can anchor in  whilst the spare person can start setting things up to haul them out if needed.

In this scenario it could be said that only one hauling kit between 2 up top is enough if the fallen climber has the spare one.

However I accept that if 2 climbers fell down carrying both rescue kits, the climber left up top has a mess on their hands.

It's a question of how much safety we build into a party of 3 when it comes to personal rescue kit. I think I agree with you, all 3 should have the basic rescue kit to bring themselves up the rope and also to haul up a partner. Always good to put these questions to the forum. Thanks very much for the reply.

Myself and my wife each carry 2 prussiks, a long ice screw, 2 slings, a progress capture and a pulley with a few other bits of lockers etc on personal preference. So the piece of kit our new 3rd partner does not have is a personal progress capture device. We're all aware this can be done using other methods but I'm all for best/safe so I was wondering if we tell him to get his hand in his pocket and go get one.

If I was in a three I wouldn't care if the middle person didn't have everything required. As you say, one rescue kit on top is enough. The third person adds to the overall safety just by being there and being an extra mass that isn't in the crevasse.

I wouldn't ask a third person to go out and buy a microtrax or similar just for glacier travel, especially if you've already got two in the party.

That said, what do you actually need at a minimum - a couple of prusiks, a couple of krabs, a sling and an axe to bury. The third person presumably will already have an axe; a prusik weighs virtually nothing and costs virtually nothing, so there's not much downside to having one or two; a sling and a couple of snapgates is also pretty light, so if you own them already the downside to taking them is small. What does a 120cm sling, two light snapgates and two prusiks weigh - maybe 200g?

And that is the other opinion I was wondering if I'd see. It might be as a party of 3 it's down to what the group feel safe carrying. As you say, personal kit isn't optional but a microtrax per person? That's the debatable part perhaps.

As a group of three other than slings and Prussics nothing from a crevasse rescue point of view needs to be added.

From a general perspective if they are to carry a share of, or additional communal kit a Bothy bag big enough for you all, or modern fancy clotting wound dressing would possibly be a better addition to your hopefully not needed kit, than more pulleys and triaxions etc.

He's probably going to be carrying prusiks, slings and krabs anyway.  It's not a lot of weight to add an ice screw  A traxion or similar is useful but optional. There's no time saving for three people to set up for glacier travel compared with two. I can't see any reasons for the third person not to be prepared to assist in a crevasse rescue, and plenty of reasons for them to do so. 

If he's going to have to spend some money and you don't already have a onother ice screw between you, that is possibly a better buy than a traxion. A secure anchor is the first priority.

The third person assists simply by being there, being attached to the rope and weighing something, so they're going to assist regardless of what they're carrying.

If I was going to travel across a glacier as a three to go and do an alpine route I'd try and cut off as much weight as I could, which includes unnecessary crevasse rescue gear. So weight saving is at least one reason for the third person to not be as equipped as the first two for crevasse rescue.

Depending on the type of glacier you're crossing and route you're going to do there might be no weight savings to be had (maybe you want micro-trax's and screws for the route, so you're bringing them anyway), or there might be some (maybe you don't want microtrax or screws or a third sling on the route, so you could not bring them). A long screw and a traxion weighs about 250g along with another 200g or so for the sling, krabs and prusik. Maybe 4/500g isn't enough weight to consider saving some of it for you, but it is for some people.

Some interesting thoughts from others. Personally I would always want each person in a group I am with to have at least the basics of two prussiks, ice screw, sling, locker krabs, ice axe and know how to and be practiced in the use of them. I have seen the middle person in a three go into a slot, the back person in a three and on a memorable occasion the middle two of four. I feel the safety of each member outweighs the perceived benefits of one person not carrying at least the very basic kit on a snowed up crevassed glacier- which is incredibly minimal in weight, especially bearing in mind you are likely to want to use or have all that kit for a snow or mixed route anyway. 

    However, it also depends on the glacier and current conditions. For a more remote route or a more complex and heavily crevassed glacier, after fresh snow or making a crossing later on a hot day I would be more likely to take a capture device and a pulley as appropriate per person simply because whilst the hazard is the same the risk is higher. 

It is of course a personal choice what to take, and what importance you place on weight saving over other factors. Congenitally lazy though I am, I don't think the weight saving from taking one less sling is sufficient compared with the extra safety it offers, but I'm a scaredy-cat. Your choices may differ.

My point was that a crevasse rescue kit can be assembled mostly from stuff you'll probably be carrying anyway - slings, krabs and prusiks. A traxion is optional, it adds weight but reduces the effort considerably should you need to use it. However there's scope there to save weight if that is important to you. 

A 22 cm Black Diamond Ultralight Ice Screw weighs 168g or there's the Ultralight at 91g, and of course shorter lengths weigh even less. But also possibly optional if you're prepared to rely on a single screw carried by one of the others, or on there being sufficient snow for a reliable axe belay.

Yeah absolutely.

What is the extra safety of the middle person in a three carrying the same stuff as the end people? I'm not sure there is any, or at least not much. Bearing in mind the OP specifically asked about rescue from above, rather than getting yourself out having fallen in.

The end people are carrying whatever stuff they think is necessary to haul someone out. They are happy to carry that travelling as a pair, that is acceptably safe. I don't see how what the extra person in the middle is carrying changes that. 

Myself and my wife will carry an Edelrid Spoc capture device and all the other things mentioned in the thread. This device weighs a bit less than the Petzl and rather than use the mechanical prussic whateveritscalled, we use a traditional prussic loops with a dmm locking revolver instead of a pulley so we use multi use items that don't really make the system worse.

Our 3rd man is somewhat new to this 4000m alpine arena but excellent on rock and performs in the UK mountains at a level, nothing short of exceptional. Regardless of the fact he's good company, it's great having him with us. He is having to get his hand in his pocket to buy some more kit but I don't want to blow his bank account on non essentials that we're already bringing.

Great replies, I'm beginning to think perhaps the middleman doesn't need the full MRT kit.