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Back from a summer alpine trip, I was surprise to see the light and sound show performed by people in refuges when getting up!! Is it that hard to prepare your stuff the night before so one could get dressed with closed eyes. And does one have to put harness, jacket before having had breakfast??? Rant over...
Have a nice day
Have a nice day
In reply to sebastien:
Ha! Welcome to the wonderful world of the Alpine Huts, where the normal rules of courtesy don't apply, and all manners and considerations are left behind in the valley.
Ha! Welcome to the wonderful world of the Alpine Huts, where the normal rules of courtesy don't apply, and all manners and considerations are left behind in the valley.
In reply to sebastien: Why does someone always need to get up and rustle through all of their supermarket carrier bags in the middle of the night as well? And why are they always German?
In reply to Alex C: And why does it snow and get cold, why is there rockfall, all part of lifes rich tapestry of climbing in the Alps.
In reply to Alex C: And why do they always shut the window even when it is already unbearably stuffy, hot and smelly?
In reply to Alex C: It's usually the brits that are fannying about in the Alps.
The Europeans just get up and get on with it.
The Europeans just get up and get on with it.
In reply to Al Evans:
Actually, i don't see the 'commercial' huts as part of the Alpine lifestyle, and i personally prefer to bivy.
I find the huts to be overcrowded by a lot of inconsiderate people, most of which unfriendly and selfish, and i find them an intrusion to the beauty the Alps could have been without them.
I see the huts as the reason why the mountains are overcrowded, providing a too easy stay for the people who doesn't want to carry their food, sleeping bag, stove, etc, and would have been unable to be up there were there no huts.
Actually, i don't see the 'commercial' huts as part of the Alpine lifestyle, and i personally prefer to bivy.
I find the huts to be overcrowded by a lot of inconsiderate people, most of which unfriendly and selfish, and i find them an intrusion to the beauty the Alps could have been without them.
I see the huts as the reason why the mountains are overcrowded, providing a too easy stay for the people who doesn't want to carry their food, sleeping bag, stove, etc, and would have been unable to be up there were there no huts.
In reply to MG:
Sometimes it seems only Brits want the windows open.
In reply to Al Evans:
The answers to those questions are actually well known. Mine, however, is a bit of a conundrum. Human nature and all that.
I usually end up in the kitchen where it's quieter and cooler, kicking myself for leaving camping gear behind. It's better in the winter -- in fact the only good nights of sleep I've had in huts have been in winter. Even the Midi bogs are a better night's kip than the nearby huts in summer.
> And why do they always shut the window even when it is already unbearably stuffy, hot and smelly?
Sometimes it seems only Brits want the windows open.
In reply to Al Evans:
> And why does it snow and get cold, why is there rockfall
The answers to those questions are actually well known. Mine, however, is a bit of a conundrum. Human nature and all that.
I usually end up in the kitchen where it's quieter and cooler, kicking myself for leaving camping gear behind. It's better in the winter -- in fact the only good nights of sleep I've had in huts have been in winter. Even the Midi bogs are a better night's kip than the nearby huts in summer.
In reply to Mr Lopez:
Whilst I don't particularly like staying in Alpine huts (in Switzerland and France anyway - Austria and Italy are a different kind of experience), I've rarely found the occupants to be unfriendly!
And the mountains aren't overcrowded, just a small fraction of routes on a small fraction of the mountains. I'm hardly a wizened Alpine veteran, but even I've had several Alpine days starting from huts where we haven't met anyone else on our route, or even our mountain.
Get a private room in a hut in Austria or Italy, that'll solve most of the gripes above.
I've never understood the window-closing thing either, though!
Whilst I don't particularly like staying in Alpine huts (in Switzerland and France anyway - Austria and Italy are a different kind of experience), I've rarely found the occupants to be unfriendly!
And the mountains aren't overcrowded, just a small fraction of routes on a small fraction of the mountains. I'm hardly a wizened Alpine veteran, but even I've had several Alpine days starting from huts where we haven't met anyone else on our route, or even our mountain.
Get a private room in a hut in Austria or Italy, that'll solve most of the gripes above.
I've never understood the window-closing thing either, though!
In reply to Mr Lopez:
Perfectly reasonable point of view, and anybody's option, there are times when both are preferable and if you take the hut option you take on the huts drawbacks.
> (In reply to Al Evans)
> Actually, i don't see the 'commercial' huts as part of the Alpine lifestyle, and i personally prefer to bivy.
> Actually, i don't see the 'commercial' huts as part of the Alpine lifestyle, and i personally prefer to bivy.
Perfectly reasonable point of view, and anybody's option, there are times when both are preferable and if you take the hut option you take on the huts drawbacks.
In reply to Al Evans: Italian bivi huts are the perfect half-way house.
In reply to skog: Ok, maybe i generalised a bit too far there...
Admittedly, there are plenty of good huts were the experience can be ace, just that the OP reminded me of the usual suspects, and i took it from there.
Admittedly, there are plenty of good huts were the experience can be ace, just that the OP reminded me of the usual suspects, and i took it from there.
In reply to Mr Lopez:
Heh!
Alpine Huts I have detested:
Ecrins Hut
That's it, really. I've stayed at a fair few I was indifferent to, but nothing else awful. Though I do try to avoid the really busy ones most of the time.
Alpine Huts I have loved:
Bertol (just due to the situation, really)
Almageller
Berliner (almost more like a hotel)
Lavarella
Several in Corsica and the Pyrénées, if they count!
Heh!
Alpine Huts I have detested:
Ecrins Hut
That's it, really. I've stayed at a fair few I was indifferent to, but nothing else awful. Though I do try to avoid the really busy ones most of the time.
Alpine Huts I have loved:
Bertol (just due to the situation, really)
Almageller
Berliner (almost more like a hotel)
Lavarella
Several in Corsica and the Pyrénées, if they count!
In reply to skog: Good call, I would include the Leschaux hut there, but I have to say it was a year or two ago.
In reply to skog: The usual suspects...
Albert 1er
Cosmiques
Gouter
Tete Rousse
Argentiere
Schonbiel (In haute route season)
Fourche
Hornli
Albert 1er
Cosmiques
Gouter
Tete Rousse
Argentiere
Schonbiel (In haute route season)
Fourche
Hornli
In reply to Mr Lopez:
Good ones:
Chabod
Vittorio Sella
Testa Grigia
Allmageller
Not so good
Torino
Tracuit (largely due to the attitude of the warden when I visited rather than the hut)
Never stayed in anything really bad
Good ones:
Chabod
Vittorio Sella
Testa Grigia
Allmageller
Not so good
Torino
Tracuit (largely due to the attitude of the warden when I visited rather than the hut)
Never stayed in anything really bad
In reply to Al Evans:
Best hut I've ever stayed in, not least for the delectable guardienne.
> (In reply to skog) Good call, I would include the Leschaux hut there,
Best hut I've ever stayed in, not least for the delectable guardienne.
In reply to sebastien:
The Rossi Volante hut (Breithorn, Castor, Pollux area) is a cesspit. I have spent a few nights in it. The first time it was fine--apart from the smell--due to the fact that we were the only residents. On the second occasion, there were 25 people attempting to stay in a hut with lodgings for about 12. It was not a comfortable night.
The Rossi Volante hut (Breithorn, Castor, Pollux area) is a cesspit. I have spent a few nights in it. The first time it was fine--apart from the smell--due to the fact that we were the only residents. On the second occasion, there were 25 people attempting to stay in a hut with lodgings for about 12. It was not a comfortable night.
In reply to sebastien:
You're just back from the Alps and this is all you have to say!
Some folks have no soul ;(
> Back from a summer alpine trip, I was surprise to see the light and sound show performed by people in refuges when getting up!! Is it that hard to prepare your stuff the night before so one could get dressed with closed eyes. And does one have to put harness, jacket before having had breakfast??? Rant over...
>
> Have a nice day
>
> Have a nice day
You're just back from the Alps and this is all you have to say!
Some folks have no soul ;(
In reply to skog:
What was to detest about the Ecrin huts? I have stayed at Refuge du Ecrin, Glacier blanc, Chatelleret, Pevoux and Temple Ecrin and no complaints.
What was to detest about the Ecrin huts? I have stayed at Refuge du Ecrin, Glacier blanc, Chatelleret, Pevoux and Temple Ecrin and no complaints.
In reply to Max_01:
The guardians (deliberately unhelpful on a number of things, including withholding the weather forecast, presumably because it was poor and they wanted to keep customers in the hut), the food (confirmed in advance by phone that they could do something veggie, so didn't take my own food. Got dry pasta, with -nothing- on it, not even a generous helping, plus one slice of baguette), and the overcrowding. Thus was early August 2005, so may have changed.
I guess it's to be expected in the hut nearest the only 4000m peak in the area, at peak season. But no other hut I've stayed in anywhere has been as bad.
The guardians (deliberately unhelpful on a number of things, including withholding the weather forecast, presumably because it was poor and they wanted to keep customers in the hut), the food (confirmed in advance by phone that they could do something veggie, so didn't take my own food. Got dry pasta, with -nothing- on it, not even a generous helping, plus one slice of baguette), and the overcrowding. Thus was early August 2005, so may have changed.
I guess it's to be expected in the hut nearest the only 4000m peak in the area, at peak season. But no other hut I've stayed in anywhere has been as bad.
In reply to Max_01:
Oh, and I also stayed at the Glacier Blanc hut that trip. It was busy, but good, with excellent food.
And the Refuge du Soreiller was also busy but good. Some friends had a bit of an epic and got down -very- late there, and the guardienne went out of her way to prepare and leave some food aside for them when they missed dinner. Simple stuff, but just good, friendly service beyond the basic required.
My complaint was purely about Refuge des Écrins, not the huts in the Ecrins in general.
Oh, and I also stayed at the Glacier Blanc hut that trip. It was busy, but good, with excellent food.
And the Refuge du Soreiller was also busy but good. Some friends had a bit of an epic and got down -very- late there, and the guardienne went out of her way to prepare and leave some food aside for them when they missed dinner. Simple stuff, but just good, friendly service beyond the basic required.
My complaint was purely about Refuge des Écrins, not the huts in the Ecrins in general.
In reply to MG:
The Swiss are superstitious about a breeze, they think it makes them ill. Hence closed windows on buses, alpine huts etc.
> (In reply to Alex C) And why do they always shut the window even when it is already unbearably stuffy, hot and smelly?
The Swiss are superstitious about a breeze, they think it makes them ill. Hence closed windows on buses, alpine huts etc.
In reply to KeithW (LMC): I can second that Leschaux hut is fantastic. Stayed there last season and the guardian lady made us fresh bread for our breakfast, still warm at 0300! Far and away the best hut I have stayed in around the Mt Blanc area.
A few weeks ago we stayed at Monzino Hut and had a whole wing to ourselves, and climbed the Punta Innomminata in complete isolation. Really enjoyed staying there. Depends on where you go I guess...
The worst hut I have stayed in was Torino, mainly due to the unfriendly guardian.
To the OP: Noisy huts are part and parcel of staying in huts, I try to find out how busy they are when booking and if its rammed you can always bivvy...
A few weeks ago we stayed at Monzino Hut and had a whole wing to ourselves, and climbed the Punta Innomminata in complete isolation. Really enjoyed staying there. Depends on where you go I guess...
The worst hut I have stayed in was Torino, mainly due to the unfriendly guardian.
To the OP: Noisy huts are part and parcel of staying in huts, I try to find out how busy they are when booking and if its rammed you can always bivvy...
In reply to Ruahine Tramper:
" Stayed there last season and the guardian lady made us fresh bread for our breakfast"
Same here, IIRC her name was Delphine(?)
P
" Stayed there last season and the guardian lady made us fresh bread for our breakfast"
Same here, IIRC her name was Delphine(?)
P
In reply to skog:
OK - realised that's what you meant now. The refuge des Ecrins was very busy when we were there, ended up sleeping on a table in the dining room as it was so busy- like you say, it's the only 4000m peak.
> My complaint was purely about Refuge des Écrins, not the huts in the Ecrins in general.
OK - realised that's what you meant now. The refuge des Ecrins was very busy when we were there, ended up sleeping on a table in the dining room as it was so busy- like you say, it's the only 4000m peak.
In reply to skog: the Bertol hut is everything I hate about the Europian alps (I really like alpanism) , and alpine huts.
Too many people in a small space. I doubt most would do that walk in if here was no hut...
Too many people in a small space. I doubt most would do that walk in if here was no hut...
In reply to MG:
> (In reply to Alex C) And why do they always shut the window even when it is already unbearably stuffy, hot and smelly?
This puzzles me as well. Either these people have never stayed in huts before or they like sleeping in a ridiculously hot environment. I always try to get a bottom bunk (hot air rises) next to the window so I can sneakily open the window at night if it's been closed.In reply to Mr Lopez:
Isn't that a bit elitist though. We were all beginners at some stage after all. Besides, huts are very useful for lots of routes, both hard and easy. Often there's a good vibe in the huts and you get to chat with interesting people.
Isn't that a bit elitist though. We were all beginners at some stage after all. Besides, huts are very useful for lots of routes, both hard and easy. Often there's a good vibe in the huts and you get to chat with interesting people.
In reply to Mr Lopez:
Plust it's easy enough to avoid the overcrowded ones.
Plust it's easy enough to avoid the overcrowded ones.
In reply to skog:
There's a new guardien at the Ecrins hut this year, apparently used to look after the Aigle hut. Spent a night at the Ecrins a couple of weeks back and it was fine, apart from being a bit too hot in the dorm overnight as the window couldn't be kept open due to high winds. The hut was only about half full, guess it would be less pleasant if at full capacity.
There's a new guardien at the Ecrins hut this year, apparently used to look after the Aigle hut. Spent a night at the Ecrins a couple of weeks back and it was fine, apart from being a bit too hot in the dorm overnight as the window couldn't be kept open due to high winds. The hut was only about half full, guess it would be less pleasant if at full capacity.
In reply to Misha:
If someone doesn't want to sleep in a sleeping bag, spend the night outdoors and cook his/her own food then (s)he should seriously reconsider whether they should be in the mountains.
>We were all beginners at some stage after all.
You don't need to be Reinhold Messner to be able to do that.
>Besides, huts are very useful for lots of routes, both hard and easy.
Huts are 'convenient' in a world where the 'spirit of adventure' is being lost in favour of a new tourism industry that is bringing the mountains down to the level of people that do not wish to put the time and effort it takes to meet the mountains in their own terms.
People get into crowded huts that are constantly increasing in size without even considering bivying, fixed ropes are appearing in every commercial route, holds are being chipped to make the routes easier.
What happened to the old tradition of doing routes you are capable of, and slowly work towards those long dreamed objectives? Now it's as easy as paying a guide, who takes you to a hotel-hut, and walks you up the fixed lines and into a summit that you have not earned.
Hard work, experience and knowledge is no longer as important as a bank account overflowing with Euros.
> (In reply to Mr Lopez)
> Isn't that a bit elitist though.
Why elitist? > Isn't that a bit elitist though.
If someone doesn't want to sleep in a sleeping bag, spend the night outdoors and cook his/her own food then (s)he should seriously reconsider whether they should be in the mountains.
>We were all beginners at some stage after all.
You don't need to be Reinhold Messner to be able to do that.
>Besides, huts are very useful for lots of routes, both hard and easy.
Huts are 'convenient' in a world where the 'spirit of adventure' is being lost in favour of a new tourism industry that is bringing the mountains down to the level of people that do not wish to put the time and effort it takes to meet the mountains in their own terms.
People get into crowded huts that are constantly increasing in size without even considering bivying, fixed ropes are appearing in every commercial route, holds are being chipped to make the routes easier.
What happened to the old tradition of doing routes you are capable of, and slowly work towards those long dreamed objectives? Now it's as easy as paying a guide, who takes you to a hotel-hut, and walks you up the fixed lines and into a summit that you have not earned.
Hard work, experience and knowledge is no longer as important as a bank account overflowing with Euros.
In reply to sebastien:
we have this debate all the time, it's the same in bunkhouses. some people just seem to rustle and faff about for ages. I think it's just stupid people.
we have this debate all the time, it's the same in bunkhouses. some people just seem to rustle and faff about for ages. I think it's just stupid people.
In reply to Mr Lopez:
I see what you are saying, but why not have a bit of comfort and convenience, you get enough spirit of adventure just doing the routes! It's a harsh enough environment. I've done a bit of bivvying when it's been necessary but would use huts if possible and think they're a key element of Alpine mountaineering. Always have been, except these days we don't have to bring up the firewood from the valley with us. Nor are huts constantly expanding, most have been the same size since at least the 80s.
No fan of fixed gear myself, shame about the ropes on the Dent for example. That's a different debate, though I see the connection you are getting at.
I see what you are saying, but why not have a bit of comfort and convenience, you get enough spirit of adventure just doing the routes! It's a harsh enough environment. I've done a bit of bivvying when it's been necessary but would use huts if possible and think they're a key element of Alpine mountaineering. Always have been, except these days we don't have to bring up the firewood from the valley with us. Nor are huts constantly expanding, most have been the same size since at least the 80s.
No fan of fixed gear myself, shame about the ropes on the Dent for example. That's a different debate, though I see the connection you are getting at.
In reply to sebastien
I think you must be one of the lucky ones who actually manages to get some sleep in.
Ear plugs or no ear plugs, I find it hard to get much sleep at all due to the farting and snoring of others and the adrenalin coursing my veins in anticipation of the next day.
But that's all part of the hut experience. And I don't mind the overcrowding in that it's a great opportunity to chat to many people from different countries.
Almageller hut - lovely hut with great dorms and pink quilts.
Ayas hut - 'orrible toilets and not a lot of them but great for socialising with other climbers, probably due to cramped conditions. Great hut for guides as well who are fed with appetizers and free booze.
Window open is the rule with a dorm full of men!
A german couple (well fit) were responsible for both late night and early morning very noisy plastic bag moments in my recent Alps experience.
I think you must be one of the lucky ones who actually manages to get some sleep in.
Ear plugs or no ear plugs, I find it hard to get much sleep at all due to the farting and snoring of others and the adrenalin coursing my veins in anticipation of the next day.
But that's all part of the hut experience. And I don't mind the overcrowding in that it's a great opportunity to chat to many people from different countries.
Almageller hut - lovely hut with great dorms and pink quilts.
Ayas hut - 'orrible toilets and not a lot of them but great for socialising with other climbers, probably due to cramped conditions. Great hut for guides as well who are fed with appetizers and free booze.
Window open is the rule with a dorm full of men!
A german couple (well fit) were responsible for both late night and early morning very noisy plastic bag moments in my recent Alps experience.
In reply to sebastien:
My wife and I stayed in the Andolla Hut, Italy about 2 weeks ago. Only people in the hut other than the guardian and his Nepalese helper. Best nights sleep in a fortnight and you sohlud have seen their well stocked bar...
My wife and I stayed in the Andolla Hut, Italy about 2 weeks ago. Only people in the hut other than the guardian and his Nepalese helper. Best nights sleep in a fortnight and you sohlud have seen their well stocked bar...
In reply to sebastien:
Great huts with flexible friendly guardians and good sleep and worth staying for a few days
Monzino(3 people staying for the two nights)
Mountet(great location, lots to do, guardians were great, had 6 one night, few school children parties other nights)
Dalmazzi(great food, quite small and lots to do)
Almagellar - good but crowded at weekends ( 120 on sat, 20 on sun)
not so good
Arben bivi(when it is busy- very crowded and noisy) - Spent 5 nights in 3 separate visits, 4 attempts on arbengrat all ended by unexpected blizzard. Walkin is a pig.
Tete rousse was worst night ever.
Great huts with flexible friendly guardians and good sleep and worth staying for a few days
Monzino(3 people staying for the two nights)
Mountet(great location, lots to do, guardians were great, had 6 one night, few school children parties other nights)
Dalmazzi(great food, quite small and lots to do)
Almagellar - good but crowded at weekends ( 120 on sat, 20 on sun)
not so good
Arben bivi(when it is busy- very crowded and noisy) - Spent 5 nights in 3 separate visits, 4 attempts on arbengrat all ended by unexpected blizzard. Walkin is a pig.
Tete rousse was worst night ever.
In reply to skog: The Ecrins hut is cack...Glacier blanc is marginally better, the Pelvoux hut is pretty cack, but the Bans hut is fantastic... mainly becasue it's privately owned and not very busy... Trient is cracking, The one below the Badile on the Swiss side is great, and all the huts in the D|olomites I've stayed in have been fantastic... So really the running theme is: French CAF huts are cack... Personally I'd rather sniff dogpoo than stay in most French huts...
In reply to mike kann:
The new Argentiere(CAF)hut is nice enough. Duvets instead of blankets. We had really good food there on Wed.
The new Argentiere(CAF)hut is nice enough. Duvets instead of blankets. We had really good food there on Wed.
In reply to Mr Lopez:
Just because you bivy you think everyone else should. Huts have been part and parcel of the Alps for a very long time.
What a load of Tosh! A new Tourism industry? The First Ascent of nearly every 4000m peak in the Alps was done with a guide by a 'Tourist' over 100 years ago
Have you got a big chip on your shoulder because theres people with more money than you in the mountains.
Just because they are not using the mountains as you do does not make you superior.
Theres plenty of Mountains in the world with no huts, very few people and plenty of space for you to go and show every one how much better you are than them.
You are just as much a 'Tourist' as any of us climbing abroad.
> (In reply to Misha)
> [...]
> Why elitist?
> If someone doesn't want to sleep in a sleeping bag, spend the night outdoors and cook his/her own food then (s)he should seriously reconsider whether they should be in the mountains.
> [...]
> Why elitist?
> If someone doesn't want to sleep in a sleeping bag, spend the night outdoors and cook his/her own food then (s)he should seriously reconsider whether they should be in the mountains.
Just because you bivy you think everyone else should. Huts have been part and parcel of the Alps for a very long time.
>
> >We were all beginners at some stage after all.
> You don't need to be Reinhold Messner to be able to do that.
>
> >Besides, huts are very useful for lots of routes, both hard and easy.
> Huts are 'convenient' in a world where the 'spirit of adventure' is being lost in favour of a new tourism industry that is bringing the mountains down to the level of people that do not wish to put the time and effort it takes to meet the mountains in their own terms.
> >We were all beginners at some stage after all.
> You don't need to be Reinhold Messner to be able to do that.
>
> >Besides, huts are very useful for lots of routes, both hard and easy.
> Huts are 'convenient' in a world where the 'spirit of adventure' is being lost in favour of a new tourism industry that is bringing the mountains down to the level of people that do not wish to put the time and effort it takes to meet the mountains in their own terms.
What a load of Tosh! A new Tourism industry? The First Ascent of nearly every 4000m peak in the Alps was done with a guide by a 'Tourist' over 100 years ago
> People get into crowded huts that are constantly increasing in size without even considering bivying, fixed ropes are appearing in every commercial route, holds are being chipped to make the routes easier.
> What happened to the old tradition of doing routes you are capable of, and slowly work towards those long dreamed objectives? Now it's as easy as paying a guide, who takes you to a hotel-hut, and walks you up the fixed lines and into a summit that you have not earned.
>
> Hard work, experience and knowledge is no longer as important as a bank account overflowing with Euros.
> What happened to the old tradition of doing routes you are capable of, and slowly work towards those long dreamed objectives? Now it's as easy as paying a guide, who takes you to a hotel-hut, and walks you up the fixed lines and into a summit that you have not earned.
>
> Hard work, experience and knowledge is no longer as important as a bank account overflowing with Euros.
Have you got a big chip on your shoulder because theres people with more money than you in the mountains.
Just because they are not using the mountains as you do does not make you superior.
Theres plenty of Mountains in the world with no huts, very few people and plenty of space for you to go and show every one how much better you are than them.
You are just as much a 'Tourist' as any of us climbing abroad.
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut: Well said.
I don't think saying I haven't earned a summit just because I was guided up it or stayed in a hut on the way is fair. It's a different experience to bivvying, leading or a solo effort granted, but not totally unearned!
To be honest, apart from the hassle of carrying a whole load more stuff about, including on the trip out, bivvying is preferable to a hut in my opinion (but I'm an anti-social b*gger). In fact, I would go so far as to say you've earned it more if you stayed in the hut (some of them anyway)!
I don't think saying I haven't earned a summit just because I was guided up it or stayed in a hut on the way is fair. It's a different experience to bivvying, leading or a solo effort granted, but not totally unearned!
To be honest, apart from the hassle of carrying a whole load more stuff about, including on the trip out, bivvying is preferable to a hut in my opinion (but I'm an anti-social b*gger). In fact, I would go so far as to say you've earned it more if you stayed in the hut (some of them anyway)!
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:
>Just because you bivy you think everyone else should. Huts have been part >and parcel of the Alps for a very long time.
Point is, people only goes to the mountain because there is a comfortable hut. Had the hut not been there they would have gone to Disneyworld.
As an example, the Argenitere hut (and glacier) is usually pretty busy during the summer season. Last summer the hut was closed due to (surprise) and extension to fit even more people and make more money. Well, not surprisingly, every time i went into the Argentiere glacier there wasn't a single person in sight. People were staying away from climbs they wanted to do just because there wasn't a warm bed and a restaurant.
You deem this normal? I found it strange, yet predictable.
>What a load of Tosh! A new Tourism industry? The First Ascent of nearly >every 4000m peak in the Alps was done with a guide by a 'Tourist' over >100 years ago
Yep, but it's only recently with the advent of the 'active holidays', 'extreme sports' fashion, etc. that unsustainable numbers of people are going to the mountains and expect the city comforts to be brought in.
>Have you got a big chip on your shoulder because theres people with more >money than you in the mountains.
>Just because they are not using the mountains as you do does not make you >superior.
It is not a matter of being better or worse, or one person being superior or inferior to another. But plainly that people who go to the mountains should understand that going to the Alps is not like going to Benidorm.
Nor should they expect for mundane comforts to be had.
People is loosing respect of the mountains, and the accessibility is increasing the numbers of unprepared people in what can be a very hostile environment, a quick look at this thread http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=365435 can give you an idea of the scope of the problem.
There is something that really baffles me whenever an argument like this comes up.
How come that people that get pride on very pure climbing ethics can be so hypocrital whenever they go abroad? The extension of the CIC hut brought some reasonable doubts, and if wardenned huts were to be proposed to be built in wild remote Scottish (or English) mountainous areas the outcry would be tremendous. what if fixed ropes were install in Tower Ridge so local guides can take clients up safely?
>Theres plenty of Mountains in the world with no huts, very few people and plenty of space for you to go and show every one how much better you are than them.
If your idea of Alpinism is to pit or compare yourself against others then you got it very wrong indeed.
There surely are other ranges and mountains without overcrowding, but to see the cradle of Alpinism loose it's tradition and become an adventure park is just heartbreaking.
>Just because you bivy you think everyone else should. Huts have been part >and parcel of the Alps for a very long time.
Point is, people only goes to the mountain because there is a comfortable hut. Had the hut not been there they would have gone to Disneyworld.
As an example, the Argenitere hut (and glacier) is usually pretty busy during the summer season. Last summer the hut was closed due to (surprise) and extension to fit even more people and make more money. Well, not surprisingly, every time i went into the Argentiere glacier there wasn't a single person in sight. People were staying away from climbs they wanted to do just because there wasn't a warm bed and a restaurant.
You deem this normal? I found it strange, yet predictable.
>What a load of Tosh! A new Tourism industry? The First Ascent of nearly >every 4000m peak in the Alps was done with a guide by a 'Tourist' over >100 years ago
Yep, but it's only recently with the advent of the 'active holidays', 'extreme sports' fashion, etc. that unsustainable numbers of people are going to the mountains and expect the city comforts to be brought in.
>Have you got a big chip on your shoulder because theres people with more >money than you in the mountains.
>Just because they are not using the mountains as you do does not make you >superior.
It is not a matter of being better or worse, or one person being superior or inferior to another. But plainly that people who go to the mountains should understand that going to the Alps is not like going to Benidorm.
Nor should they expect for mundane comforts to be had.
People is loosing respect of the mountains, and the accessibility is increasing the numbers of unprepared people in what can be a very hostile environment, a quick look at this thread http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=365435 can give you an idea of the scope of the problem.
There is something that really baffles me whenever an argument like this comes up.
How come that people that get pride on very pure climbing ethics can be so hypocrital whenever they go abroad? The extension of the CIC hut brought some reasonable doubts, and if wardenned huts were to be proposed to be built in wild remote Scottish (or English) mountainous areas the outcry would be tremendous. what if fixed ropes were install in Tower Ridge so local guides can take clients up safely?
>Theres plenty of Mountains in the world with no huts, very few people and plenty of space for you to go and show every one how much better you are than them.
If your idea of Alpinism is to pit or compare yourself against others then you got it very wrong indeed.
There surely are other ranges and mountains without overcrowding, but to see the cradle of Alpinism loose it's tradition and become an adventure park is just heartbreaking.
In reply to mountainbagger:
I'm probably gonna be flamed for bringing this up, but to be honest, if you climb a mountain guided, the chances are that it was an athletic achievement rather than a mountaineering achievement.
The fact of using a guide implies that the person doesn't believe is ready to climb the mountain. Plain and simple.
Climbing a mountain involves more than putting one foot on top of the other. It is not even just the planning, route choice, route finding, decisions taken, etc. but it goes beyond the couple of weeks before the climb. It is the coming together of months or years of training in easier objectives, gathering experience, acquiring knowledge...
But in the current society time is too precious to waste getting ready, and there's a culture of 'i want this, i got money, so i want it now. No next month, no next years, i want it now.'
I'm probably gonna be flamed for bringing this up, but to be honest, if you climb a mountain guided, the chances are that it was an athletic achievement rather than a mountaineering achievement.
The fact of using a guide implies that the person doesn't believe is ready to climb the mountain. Plain and simple.
Climbing a mountain involves more than putting one foot on top of the other. It is not even just the planning, route choice, route finding, decisions taken, etc. but it goes beyond the couple of weeks before the climb. It is the coming together of months or years of training in easier objectives, gathering experience, acquiring knowledge...
But in the current society time is too precious to waste getting ready, and there's a culture of 'i want this, i got money, so i want it now. No next month, no next years, i want it now.'
In reply to sebastien: I can think of one good reason why staying in a hut is preferred to staying in a tent. People congregate in huts to eat, sleep and go to toilet. Eating and pooping creates a lot of waste which is left in the mountains.
If you ever have gone up Voie Royale onto MB, there are often tents after Refuge Gouter even though none are allowed (according to my guide) above Tete Rousse. The place is always filthy around this tent village.
If you ever have gone up Voie Royale onto MB, there are often tents after Refuge Gouter even though none are allowed (according to my guide) above Tete Rousse. The place is always filthy around this tent village.
In reply to Mr Lopez: I agree with a lot of what you say but I am not sure your thoughts on huts are quite right. Starting from huts goes right to the very earliest days of alpinism - de Saussure had one built for climbing Mont Blanc and before that Paccard used the highest chalets as bases. It is entirely possible to climb in a very pure manner but start from a hut.
In reply to Patrik:
Some more reasons:
I recall sitting down to dinner at the Couvercle with my 12 year old daughter (We had just climbed the Moine). Dinner took about 2 hours and we were sitting with two Germans, 2 Italians and two French people. The conversation was in English, and my daughter was the centre of attention. Probably the most enjoyable meal I ever had, and my daughter was enthralled and will never forget it.
We would have missed that with a bivouac.
Some more reasons:
I recall sitting down to dinner at the Couvercle with my 12 year old daughter (We had just climbed the Moine). Dinner took about 2 hours and we were sitting with two Germans, 2 Italians and two French people. The conversation was in English, and my daughter was the centre of attention. Probably the most enjoyable meal I ever had, and my daughter was enthralled and will never forget it.
We would have missed that with a bivouac.
In reply to Mr Lopez:
Oooh, Mr Lopez, that does sound like a CHIP. Did you fly into Denali or walk...?
Oooh, Mr Lopez, that does sound like a CHIP. Did you fly into Denali or walk...?
In reply to JTM: Do you walk to the telepherique or drive...?
In reply to JTM: Ok, i do get a bit fired up when threads like this come along, that's why a usually refrain of posting in them.
Bottom line, if you don't want to share your bed with 25 other snoring, smelly alpinists, then grab your sleeping bag and sleep outside.
It won't kill you, honest!
Bottom line, if you don't want to share your bed with 25 other snoring, smelly alpinists, then grab your sleeping bag and sleep outside.
It won't kill you, honest!
In reply to Mr Lopez:
I drive to the telepherique then take it as high as it'll go. I've flown in a helicopter three times to above the Rothornhutte, then walked down to it. I just don't preach to people how they should do things when I have no qualms in doing them myself. So, did you walk in to Denali?
I drive to the telepherique then take it as high as it'll go. I've flown in a helicopter three times to above the Rothornhutte, then walked down to it. I just don't preach to people how they should do things when I have no qualms in doing them myself. So, did you walk in to Denali?
In reply to Mr Lopez:
Seem to have crossed replys there. Sure, I've bivvied. Huts are THE thing I detest about my job. But I use them and don't complain about them. Well, not very much.... the Schonbiel last night was APPALLING!
Seem to have crossed replys there. Sure, I've bivvied. Huts are THE thing I detest about my job. But I use them and don't complain about them. Well, not very much.... the Schonbiel last night was APPALLING!
In reply to JTM:
Yes i did.
I walked carrying all my stuff from the airport to the summit. Are you now going to suggest i should have started from the Pacific ocean?
Old thread my friend.
Yes i did.
I walked carrying all my stuff from the airport to the summit. Are you now going to suggest i should have started from the Pacific ocean?
Old thread my friend.
In reply to JTM: Crossed reply again...
In reply to Mr Lopez:
No, not at all. My beef with people complaining about lifts etc, is that saying one should walk from the car and not take a lift is such an arbitary place whereas if they're are that pedantic, and more importantly critical of others, that sea level can be the only place to start.
My hat is off to sir. You do mean Talkeetna, not the glacier...? Very impressive, and unusual, I'd say.
No, not at all. My beef with people complaining about lifts etc, is that saying one should walk from the car and not take a lift is such an arbitary place whereas if they're are that pedantic, and more importantly critical of others, that sea level can be the only place to start.
My hat is off to sir. You do mean Talkeetna, not the glacier...? Very impressive, and unusual, I'd say.
In reply to JTM:
No, i mean from the Airport... http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=119761
> My hat is off to sir. You do mean Talkeetna, not the glacier...? Very impressive, and unusual, I'd say.
No, i mean from the Airport... http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=119761
In reply to JTM: Actually, i had planned to exit by foot, but due to the heat down low that late in the season there was a 2 day stretch through 'the muds' because of the lack of snow, which didn't sound appealing. That plus the mosquitoes...
Still planning on doing the walking approach another year, not that unusual, a few parties do it every year.
And the modern way to exit now is to ski to the end of the glacier and then raft the river all the way to Talkeetna. Now, that's something i want to do!
Still planning on doing the walking approach another year, not that unusual, a few parties do it every year.
And the modern way to exit now is to ski to the end of the glacier and then raft the river all the way to Talkeetna. Now, that's something i want to do!
In reply to Mr Lopez:
When John Barry, Rob Collister and co did their Deborah route, they walked out and were eventually picked up by some guys in a big pick up who'd been "huntin' griz"... They asked JB, if he could climb Deborah and walk out, "Why do you talk like a poof...!"
When John Barry, Rob Collister and co did their Deborah route, they walked out and were eventually picked up by some guys in a big pick up who'd been "huntin' griz"... They asked JB, if he could climb Deborah and walk out, "Why do you talk like a poof...!"
In reply to sebastien:
I'm quite with Lopez on some issue regarding banalization of mountains, and yes, there's a lot of huts (particularly the big ones) tha are simply badly run hotels in the wrong place.
On the other hand, there are huts w/warden that are both well run and pleasant places to rest/stay when you're in the mountain. My list (for the Italian Alps, but there's a lot to recommend in France too) may be
Monzino / Dalmazzi (as mentioned by others).
Rifugio Chabod (Gran Paradiso): lay to rest the myth that a hut can't be very very busy AND decently run.
Rifugio Pontese at the Valsoera (Gran Paradiso): Mara, the warden, is a legend.
Rifugio Daviso alla Fea (Levanne): may be busy, but is never unpleasant
Rifugio Cibrario (Southern Graians): very lonely at times, and not exactly luscious, but is a nice place to stay.
and many others....
I'm quite with Lopez on some issue regarding banalization of mountains, and yes, there's a lot of huts (particularly the big ones) tha are simply badly run hotels in the wrong place.
On the other hand, there are huts w/warden that are both well run and pleasant places to rest/stay when you're in the mountain. My list (for the Italian Alps, but there's a lot to recommend in France too) may be
Monzino / Dalmazzi (as mentioned by others).
Rifugio Chabod (Gran Paradiso): lay to rest the myth that a hut can't be very very busy AND decently run.
Rifugio Pontese at the Valsoera (Gran Paradiso): Mara, the warden, is a legend.
Rifugio Daviso alla Fea (Levanne): may be busy, but is never unpleasant
Rifugio Cibrario (Southern Graians): very lonely at times, and not exactly luscious, but is a nice place to stay.
and many others....
In reply to Luca Signorelli:
To an extent it doesn't matter what the hut is like - it's the gardien who makes it a pleasant stay or not. Obviously there are exceptions... Chez Albert and the (dé)Gouter come to mind...
To an extent it doesn't matter what the hut is like - it's the gardien who makes it a pleasant stay or not. Obviously there are exceptions... Chez Albert and the (dé)Gouter come to mind...
In reply to JTM:
Of course. The hut success stories are invariably the result of someone concentrating on the hospitality (particularly the food) and the atmosphere. You may have a derelict stone hut with bunkbeds, and still make it a pleasant place to stay.
It's interesting to see that all the good hut wardens I know/knew have a background as bar/hotel/restaurant owners, but see hut guarding as a sort of hobby, not a profession.
> (In reply to Luca Signorelli)
>
> To an extent it doesn't matter what the hut is like - it's the gardien who makes it a pleasant stay or not. Obviously there are exceptions...
>
> To an extent it doesn't matter what the hut is like - it's the gardien who makes it a pleasant stay or not. Obviously there are exceptions...
Of course. The hut success stories are invariably the result of someone concentrating on the hospitality (particularly the food) and the atmosphere. You may have a derelict stone hut with bunkbeds, and still make it a pleasant place to stay.
It's interesting to see that all the good hut wardens I know/knew have a background as bar/hotel/restaurant owners, but see hut guarding as a sort of hobby, not a profession.
In reply to Luca Signorelli:
The guy at the Dix used to work at MacDonalds. He's excellent. There's even a record of when he last cleaned the toilets posted on the toilet wall...! Just like MacDo!
The guy at the Dix used to work at MacDonalds. He's excellent. There's even a record of when he last cleaned the toilets posted on the toilet wall...! Just like MacDo!
In reply to Mr Lopez:
Was going to point out, with a mixture of incredulity and admiration, that Anchorage airport IS on the Pacific Ocean, more or less. Got the wrong end of a very long stick, obviously!
> (In reply to jon)
> I walked carrying all my stuff from the airport to the summit. Are you now going to suggest i should have started from the Pacific ocean?
Was going to point out, with a mixture of incredulity and admiration, that Anchorage airport IS on the Pacific Ocean, more or less. Got the wrong end of a very long stick, obviously!
In reply to JTM:
The Dix stands apart - excellent hospitality and a gentle, but firm hand with big groups. Woe betide you if you don't book though.
The Dix stands apart - excellent hospitality and a gentle, but firm hand with big groups. Woe betide you if you don't book though.
In reply to SouthernSteve:
It's common sense and plain politeness to book at any refuge. The guy at Chanrion turned a couple away on Monday night. I should point out that the hut was full, the couple had three young children and a tent...
It's common sense and plain politeness to book at any refuge. The guy at Chanrion turned a couple away on Monday night. I should point out that the hut was full, the couple had three young children and a tent...
In reply to JTM:
Are you sure it's got anything to do with the gardien, all but two of my hut nights have been out of season with no gardien and they seemed pleasant enough. I thought the lack of a gardien was a major plus point
Then again it may have been the lack of any other residents or indeed any other people within whole glacier basins that made it special.
> (In reply to Luca Signorelli)
>
> To an extent it doesn't matter what the hut is like - it's the gardien who makes it a pleasant stay or not. Obviously there are exceptions... Chez Albert and the (dé)Gouter come to mind...
>
> To an extent it doesn't matter what the hut is like - it's the gardien who makes it a pleasant stay or not. Obviously there are exceptions... Chez Albert and the (dé)Gouter come to mind...
Are you sure it's got anything to do with the gardien, all but two of my hut nights have been out of season with no gardien and they seemed pleasant enough. I thought the lack of a gardien was a major plus point
Then again it may have been the lack of any other residents or indeed any other people within whole glacier basins that made it special.
In reply to Luca Signorelli:
> Rifugio Chabod (Gran Paradiso): lay to rest the myth that a hut can't be very very busy AND decently run.
>
just to add a bit of balance, i also liked the vittorio emanuele (sp.?) - to be honest, apart from the torino, i'm yet to find a refuge in italy i'm not impressed with but perhaps i'm not particularly discriminatory.>
In reply to JTM:
You're probably right but if it's an away from it all experience you're seeking a hut gardien is as big an intrusion as a fellow climber ;(
> (In reply to timjones)
>
> I suspect the latter.
>
> I suspect the latter.
You're probably right but if it's an away from it all experience you're seeking a hut gardien is as big an intrusion as a fellow climber ;(
In reply to Tobias at Home:
Problem with the VE is that there's REALLY too much people there, whatever effort the wardens will do, you'll never sleep well. By the way, both me and one of my brothers did the GP (in separate occasions) straight from Pont Valsavaranche, stopping outside the VE just to rest a bit. I didn't find the experience terribly strenous (my brother suffered a bit more, but he was just 15 years old at the time!).
The problem with the current Torino management is that they seem to dislike customers. It's not that they do anything wrong, but you feel like an intruder. The same problem, but multiplied by ten, has always plagued the Gnifetti hut (not the Margherita hut at Pt. Gnifetti) which get my vote for one of the worst italian hut ever.
> (In reply to Luca Signorelli)
>
> [...]
> just to add a bit of balance, i also liked the vittorio emanuele (sp.?) - to be honest, apart from the torino, i'm yet to find a refuge in italy i'm not impressed with but perhaps i'm not particularly discriminatory.
>
> [...]
> just to add a bit of balance, i also liked the vittorio emanuele (sp.?) - to be honest, apart from the torino, i'm yet to find a refuge in italy i'm not impressed with but perhaps i'm not particularly discriminatory.
Problem with the VE is that there's REALLY too much people there, whatever effort the wardens will do, you'll never sleep well. By the way, both me and one of my brothers did the GP (in separate occasions) straight from Pont Valsavaranche, stopping outside the VE just to rest a bit. I didn't find the experience terribly strenous (my brother suffered a bit more, but he was just 15 years old at the time!).
The problem with the current Torino management is that they seem to dislike customers. It's not that they do anything wrong, but you feel like an intruder. The same problem, but multiplied by ten, has always plagued the Gnifetti hut (not the Margherita hut at Pt. Gnifetti) which get my vote for one of the worst italian hut ever.
In reply to sebastien: Ah the good old Torino - my mates in Cham call it Alcatraz - sums it up nicely!
In reply to Luca Signorelli:
Ah that probably explains why we liked it - me and the girlfriend had a room to ourselves so it can't have been too busy!
> (In reply to Tobias at Home)
> [...]
>
>
> Problem with the VE is that there's REALLY too much people there, whatever effort the wardens will do, you'll never sleep well.
> [...]
>
>
> Problem with the VE is that there's REALLY too much people there, whatever effort the wardens will do, you'll never sleep well.
Ah that probably explains why we liked it - me and the girlfriend had a room to ourselves so it can't have been too busy!
In reply to Tobias at Home:
You're right Tobias. The little four bedded rooms are great. I've always been pleasantly surprised there. But I do much prefer Chabod.
The Gnifetti gets my vote for one of the worst too. 200 hundred places and self service dinner... It's record for the highest number on one night is over 500 apparently...
> (In reply to Luca Signorelli)
> [...]
>
> Ah that probably explains why we liked it - me and the girlfriend had a room to ourselves so it can't have been too busy!
> [...]
>
> Ah that probably explains why we liked it - me and the girlfriend had a room to ourselves so it can't have been too busy!
You're right Tobias. The little four bedded rooms are great. I've always been pleasantly surprised there. But I do much prefer Chabod.
The Gnifetti gets my vote for one of the worst too. 200 hundred places and self service dinner... It's record for the highest number on one night is over 500 apparently...
In reply to Fredt:
was there about a week ago.. really easy going guardians. Quite a few people biviing a couple of hundred meters away from the hut and using the huts winterraum for meal cooking and being able to use the huts water water free of charge. Also after coming back in to late for dinner they didnt even charge us for it eventhough we made reservations for it. Definatly one of the better huts ive stayed in so far...
was there about a week ago.. really easy going guardians. Quite a few people biviing a couple of hundred meters away from the hut and using the huts winterraum for meal cooking and being able to use the huts water water free of charge. Also after coming back in to late for dinner they didnt even charge us for it eventhough we made reservations for it. Definatly one of the better huts ive stayed in so far...
In reply to Mr Lopez:
Re guiding. There seem to be two types of guiding.
There are the guides who 'drag' their clients up and down peaks. The clients get to climb a peak but don't learn much along the way. The clients are quite happy with that as they just want to bag a few peaks.
On the other hand, there are the guides who actively instruct their clients in the various Alpine skills. Peaks are climbed not just for the sake of reaching the summit but as training and preparation for harder climbs. The clients want to gain the experience required to become autonomous. This will probably happen in the context of a one or two week programme. Some of the clients will probably be in independent rope teams.
I have benefited enormously from the latter form of guiding with the UCPA. I would recommend this form of guiding to most people venturing out to the Alps for the first time. It's a dangerous place, very different to what you encounter in the UK and calling for a far greater range of skills (unless you already have lots of UK winter experience). It's well worth spending a few weeks with guides who will show you the ropes. There are a lot of people out there bumbling along with their mates, not really knowing what they're doing. 99% of the time they get off scotch free, but only 99%.
Re guiding. There seem to be two types of guiding.
There are the guides who 'drag' their clients up and down peaks. The clients get to climb a peak but don't learn much along the way. The clients are quite happy with that as they just want to bag a few peaks.
On the other hand, there are the guides who actively instruct their clients in the various Alpine skills. Peaks are climbed not just for the sake of reaching the summit but as training and preparation for harder climbs. The clients want to gain the experience required to become autonomous. This will probably happen in the context of a one or two week programme. Some of the clients will probably be in independent rope teams.
I have benefited enormously from the latter form of guiding with the UCPA. I would recommend this form of guiding to most people venturing out to the Alps for the first time. It's a dangerous place, very different to what you encounter in the UK and calling for a far greater range of skills (unless you already have lots of UK winter experience). It's well worth spending a few weeks with guides who will show you the ropes. There are a lot of people out there bumbling along with their mates, not really knowing what they're doing. 99% of the time they get off scotch free, but only 99%.
In reply to Misha:
I'd agree Misha, but bear in mind there are two types of clients: those who just want to tick a peak/climb, and those who want to learn something!
I'd agree Misha, but bear in mind there are two types of clients: those who just want to tick a peak/climb, and those who want to learn something!
In reply to Tobias at Home:
I liked the VE as well, but then we were there in March and stayed in the stables behind the hut. There was a climbing/skiing team in each compartment so far from overcrowded! The bogs were revolting though.
In reply to Mr Lopez:
I'm in agreement with everything Mr Lopez says I'm afraid. Elitism isn't a dirty word, and the mountains should be a bastion of it. It's nice for everyone to be able to enjoy the hills, but it just results in the region becoming a playground full of people who shouldn't/couldn't be there were it not for all of the mechanisation and the huts. It's a shame the Alps and Everest in particular are having this done to them. The comment about "we're all beginners at one stage" is also total tosh -- not only would you not expect beginners to hammer straight up into the high mountains to climb at their limit, but anyone with physical fitness can drag their tent and food up to the base of their chosen objective (I did as a beginner in the Alps) -- it's just harder and takes more time and conviction. These are all good things. Just my opinion I guess, I realise lots of people disagree.
The money aspect isn't about chips on shoulders either. The point is you can make up for your lack of fitness, imagination or conviction with a fat wallet and that's a shame. Maybe it's just a fact of life and a feature of people but it's a shame nonetheless.
I have to say, that looks f*cking dreadful.
I liked the VE as well, but then we were there in March and stayed in the stables behind the hut. There was a climbing/skiing team in each compartment so far from overcrowded! The bogs were revolting though.
In reply to Mr Lopez:
I'm in agreement with everything Mr Lopez says I'm afraid. Elitism isn't a dirty word, and the mountains should be a bastion of it. It's nice for everyone to be able to enjoy the hills, but it just results in the region becoming a playground full of people who shouldn't/couldn't be there were it not for all of the mechanisation and the huts. It's a shame the Alps and Everest in particular are having this done to them. The comment about "we're all beginners at one stage" is also total tosh -- not only would you not expect beginners to hammer straight up into the high mountains to climb at their limit, but anyone with physical fitness can drag their tent and food up to the base of their chosen objective (I did as a beginner in the Alps) -- it's just harder and takes more time and conviction. These are all good things. Just my opinion I guess, I realise lots of people disagree.
The money aspect isn't about chips on shoulders either. The point is you can make up for your lack of fitness, imagination or conviction with a fat wallet and that's a shame. Maybe it's just a fact of life and a feature of people but it's a shame nonetheless.
> No, i mean from the Airport... http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=119761
I have to say, that looks f*cking dreadful.
In reply to Alex C:
If only people (including complete beginners) would stop thinking Alps = Chamonix and realise that there are other areas out there, then the overcrowding might stop. Completely unrealistic, of course...
If only people (including complete beginners) would stop thinking Alps = Chamonix and realise that there are other areas out there, then the overcrowding might stop. Completely unrealistic, of course...
In reply to JTM:
Yes, I should have phrased that differently. Ultimately it's the client who determines what is done and how.
Yes, I should have phrased that differently. Ultimately it's the client who determines what is done and how.
In reply to Alex C:
If everyone had to camp or bivvy, there would of course be fewer people in the mountains. As others have said though, huts have been a feature of Alpine climbing for over a century. Long may that continue. I think they actually add something to the Alpine experience. Some are very overcrowded and unpleasant but you can go out of season or simply mid-week. Camp or bivvy if you like (just clean up after yourself - why can't some people poo in a plastic bag... or down in the valley?) but it's not nice or helpful to look down on the majority who use huts.
If everyone had to camp or bivvy, there would of course be fewer people in the mountains. As others have said though, huts have been a feature of Alpine climbing for over a century. Long may that continue. I think they actually add something to the Alpine experience. Some are very overcrowded and unpleasant but you can go out of season or simply mid-week. Camp or bivvy if you like (just clean up after yourself - why can't some people poo in a plastic bag... or down in the valley?) but it's not nice or helpful to look down on the majority who use huts.
In reply to Misha:
Agreed. Carry a tent up or bivvy if you want, walk from the valley or Geneva airport - but it doesn't make you a better person because you haven't taken a lift, slept in a hut or employed a guide. If you think it does, then you should re-assess your reason for climbing. Live and let live.
> (In reply to Alex C)
but it's not nice or helpful to look down on the majority who use huts.Agreed. Carry a tent up or bivvy if you want, walk from the valley or Geneva airport - but it doesn't make you a better person because you haven't taken a lift, slept in a hut or employed a guide. If you think it does, then you should re-assess your reason for climbing. Live and let live.
In reply to JTM:
I use lifts, sleep in huts and pay for the sevices of a guide!! I guess I'm not a real climber then!!!
Personally, I'm up in the mountains enjoying myself, along with Jon's clients while a lot of others are sat in the valley, umming and ahhing about conditions or joining the queue on the Cosmiques, for the 10th time!!!
I use lifts, sleep in huts and pay for the sevices of a guide!! I guess I'm not a real climber then!!!
Personally, I'm up in the mountains enjoying myself, along with Jon's clients while a lot of others are sat in the valley, umming and ahhing about conditions or joining the queue on the Cosmiques, for the 10th time!!!
In reply to JTM:
One thing that will ALWAYS puzzle me is this idea that the "Alp" are just a tiny corner of mountains near Chamonix, Zermatt or Grindenwald. The Alps are HUGE. You could just devote the rest of your active climbing life excusively to (for instance) the Western Alps, climbng / walking one route once every weekend, and you'll not do the same climb or walk twice!
I'm proposing to the UKC people one experiment - check this page
http://www.gulliver.it/index.php
It's a route database very popular with the northern Italian crowd, the bias is obviously on the NW. Nothing terribly exotic - we're speaking of popular routes here. Now - think honestly how many route names you're recognizing on the home page. I bet that the answer doesn't go up to 10!
> (In reply to Alex C)
>
> If only people (including complete beginners) would stop thinking Alps = Chamonix and realise that there are other areas out there, then the overcrowding might stop. Completely unrealistic, of course...
>
> If only people (including complete beginners) would stop thinking Alps = Chamonix and realise that there are other areas out there, then the overcrowding might stop. Completely unrealistic, of course...
One thing that will ALWAYS puzzle me is this idea that the "Alp" are just a tiny corner of mountains near Chamonix, Zermatt or Grindenwald. The Alps are HUGE. You could just devote the rest of your active climbing life excusively to (for instance) the Western Alps, climbng / walking one route once every weekend, and you'll not do the same climb or walk twice!
I'm proposing to the UKC people one experiment - check this page
http://www.gulliver.it/index.php
It's a route database very popular with the northern Italian crowd, the bias is obviously on the NW. Nothing terribly exotic - we're speaking of popular routes here. Now - think honestly how many route names you're recognizing on the home page. I bet that the answer doesn't go up to 10!
In reply to Luca Signorelli:
At a quick glance, 8! Though I might have missed a couple as it appears to be written in Latin or something similar... just joking, Luca.
At a quick glance, 8! Though I might have missed a couple as it appears to be written in Latin or something similar... just joking, Luca.
In reply to JTM:
but it doesn't make you a better person because you haven't taken a lift, slept in a hut or employed a guide.
Quite so. Although perhaps worth pointing out the reverse is true too. Just because someone has employed a guide doesn't mean they and the guide can push past people who haven't. I have in mind in particular the occasion when in a short queue for the Moseley slab near the Solvay hut a Zermatt guide grabbed my mates chest coils, pushed him out over the East Face and said "it's all right, I'll hold you" as he shunted his client past us.
(The Zermatt guides partially redeemed themselves by preparing hot tea at the Arben bivouac for us on another occasion when they saw us descending.)
but it doesn't make you a better person because you haven't taken a lift, slept in a hut or employed a guide.
Quite so. Although perhaps worth pointing out the reverse is true too. Just because someone has employed a guide doesn't mean they and the guide can push past people who haven't. I have in mind in particular the occasion when in a short queue for the Moseley slab near the Solvay hut a Zermatt guide grabbed my mates chest coils, pushed him out over the East Face and said "it's all right, I'll hold you" as he shunted his client past us.
(The Zermatt guides partially redeemed themselves by preparing hot tea at the Arben bivouac for us on another occasion when they saw us descending.)
In reply to Luca Signorelli:
www.camptocamp.org is very useful as well
>
> http://www.gulliver.it/index.php
>
> It's a route database very popular with the northern Italian crowd, the bias is obviously on the NW.
> http://www.gulliver.it/index.php
>
> It's a route database very popular with the northern Italian crowd, the bias is obviously on the NW.
www.camptocamp.org is very useful as well
In reply to MG:
I was coming down the fixed ropes on the Hornli one time, Brian Hall below me, on the next anchor/stanchion. He appeared to be having an altercation with a Zermatt guide. When I caught Brian up a few minutes later he told me the guy had placed his rope over Brian's, lowered his client, burning Brian's rope a little (nothing serious) and when Brian, who'd already lowered his client asked if he could just retrieve his rope and climb down the bastard said 'This is our mountain, not yours...!'
Not all guides come from Zermatt.
I was coming down the fixed ropes on the Hornli one time, Brian Hall below me, on the next anchor/stanchion. He appeared to be having an altercation with a Zermatt guide. When I caught Brian up a few minutes later he told me the guy had placed his rope over Brian's, lowered his client, burning Brian's rope a little (nothing serious) and when Brian, who'd already lowered his client asked if he could just retrieve his rope and climb down the bastard said 'This is our mountain, not yours...!'
Not all guides come from Zermatt.
In reply to JTM:
Ouch, you got me here! Actually is a website for nostalgic of the Roman Empire
> (In reply to Luca Signorelli)
>
> At a quick glance, 8! Though I might have missed a couple as it appears to be written in Latin or something similar... just joking, Luca.
>
> At a quick glance, 8! Though I might have missed a couple as it appears to be written in Latin or something similar... just joking, Luca.
Ouch, you got me here! Actually is a website for nostalgic of the Roman Empire
One of the attractions of Chamonix is the lift network. I wonder whether this over-mechanisation detracts somewhat from the Alpine experience. Sure, it's convenient to whizz up to the Midi or the Grands Montets and I've done it often enough, but there's much to be said for the proper walk-ins (and walk-outs) you get in places like the Ecrins (and they're not that bad either!). Of course even in the MB range there are some impressive walk-ins starting down in the valley.
Just four from the list on the Italian website...
Just four from the list on the Italian website...
In reply to Misha:
Chamonix shamelessly sells itself as the capitale mondiale de l'alpinisme. What else can you expect - a hospital, perhaps?
Chamonix shamelessly sells itself as the capitale mondiale de l'alpinisme. What else can you expect - a hospital, perhaps?
In reply to JTM:
I think it's a real shame the hospital in Cham is being wound down. I was there in 10 mins by failicopter and x-rayed straight away but then had to wait to be transported to Sallanches to be seen by a surgeon. I think they either need to take you directly to Sallanches or get the doctors back into Chamonix.
I think it's a real shame the hospital in Cham is being wound down. I was there in 10 mins by failicopter and x-rayed straight away but then had to wait to be transported to Sallanches to be seen by a surgeon. I think they either need to take you directly to Sallanches or get the doctors back into Chamonix.
In reply to Mick's Daughter:
Have a quick glance through this http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=332209&v=1#x4938537
Have a quick glance through this http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=332209&v=1#x4938537
In reply to Mick's Daughter:
Is the A&E being shut down as well?
That would only increase the failicopter call-outs.
If i were to get injured i would try to get my arse of the mountain by myself if possible, and make my way to the hospital.
But if that will involve not just getting off the mountain, but then trying to make my way to Sallanches via public transport, which is an expedition in itself, i think i'll be choosing chopper everytime.
Is the A&E being shut down as well?
That would only increase the failicopter call-outs.
If i were to get injured i would try to get my arse of the mountain by myself if possible, and make my way to the hospital.
But if that will involve not just getting off the mountain, but then trying to make my way to Sallanches via public transport, which is an expedition in itself, i think i'll be choosing chopper everytime.
In reply to sebastien: And why do the cable cars honk of bad breath??
In reply to Mr Lopez:
It's been closed for 8 years - just a skeleton service (no pun intended). And that's only in high season... If you do more than cut your finger, or, more worryingly, arrive after 6:00pm, it's Sallanches. The X ray dept's gone too - there is a private one in the hospital, but of course that closes at 6:00!
It's been closed for 8 years - just a skeleton service (no pun intended). And that's only in high season... If you do more than cut your finger, or, more worryingly, arrive after 6:00pm, it's Sallanches. The X ray dept's gone too - there is a private one in the hospital, but of course that closes at 6:00!
In reply to JTM:
Last summer i walked into the A&E entrance, checked in at the desk in the hall, and was seen by a doctor within 10 minutes... I guess that was the reduced service.
Last summer i walked into the A&E entrance, checked in at the desk in the hall, and was seen by a doctor within 10 minutes... I guess that was the reduced service.
In reply to Mr Lopez:
Late last summer, I was pushed into the A@E in a wheelchair. One hour later, I left the A@E, minus said wheelchair and still unable to walk!!!! I love the way that you have to make your way to the Pharmacy to pick up your crutches!!!
Late last summer, I was pushed into the A@E in a wheelchair. One hour later, I left the A@E, minus said wheelchair and still unable to walk!!!! I love the way that you have to make your way to the Pharmacy to pick up your crutches!!!
In reply to Mr Lopez:
You were lucky. Seriously there is no longer an operating theatre, cold injury specialists, X ray dept... Just a couple of nurses and a doctor who will patch up a minor bobo. And then only till 6. And then only in high season.
I arrived by heli last September after a large piece of rock crushed my foot at 5:59! The doctor took pity on me - and wrote a report of my injury to speed things up for when I arrived by ambulance at Sallanches. He wrote "pied droite écrasé". It was my left foot. He must have been very tired after his long day!
You were lucky. Seriously there is no longer an operating theatre, cold injury specialists, X ray dept... Just a couple of nurses and a doctor who will patch up a minor bobo. And then only till 6. And then only in high season.
I arrived by heli last September after a large piece of rock crushed my foot at 5:59! The doctor took pity on me - and wrote a report of my injury to speed things up for when I arrived by ambulance at Sallanches. He wrote "pied droite écrasé". It was my left foot. He must have been very tired after his long day!
In reply to JTM:
Thank the stars he wasn't talking about your kidney!!!!
Thank the stars he wasn't talking about your kidney!!!!
In reply to JTM:
Au moins, je m'attends aux bonnes conditions! Eh bien...
> (In reply to Misha)
>
> Chamonix shamelessly sells itself as the capitale mondiale de l'alpinisme. What else can you expect - a hospital, perhaps?
>
> Chamonix shamelessly sells itself as the capitale mondiale de l'alpinisme. What else can you expect - a hospital, perhaps?
Au moins, je m'attends aux bonnes conditions! Eh bien...
In reply to JTM:
>
i assume any life-threatening cases get flown direct to sallanches so chamonix is really just a doctor's surgery with an x-ray machine for a bit of triage. (sending the people with sprained ankles back to their campsite as opposed to the helicopter flying an extra 10min round trip out the valley)
it is a shame there isn't a world-leading mountain-injuries research hospital in town but as i mentioned in the other thread, Sallanches is a lot more accessible to Megeve, Flaine and the rest of the surrounding area and, apart from causing people delay (and possibly getting the wrong foot amputated ) I'm yet to hear of anyone dying from the set-up.
however, that's not to say that i don't curse the state when i have to drive all the way to sallanches...
>
i assume any life-threatening cases get flown direct to sallanches so chamonix is really just a doctor's surgery with an x-ray machine for a bit of triage. (sending the people with sprained ankles back to their campsite as opposed to the helicopter flying an extra 10min round trip out the valley)
it is a shame there isn't a world-leading mountain-injuries research hospital in town but as i mentioned in the other thread, Sallanches is a lot more accessible to Megeve, Flaine and the rest of the surrounding area and, apart from causing people delay (and possibly getting the wrong foot amputated ) I'm yet to hear of anyone dying from the set-up.
however, that's not to say that i don't curse the state when i have to drive all the way to sallanches...
In reply to Tobias at Home: i just reread the old thread....maybe i'm wrong
In reply to JTM:
I forgot about the fog issues. I personally think the demise of Cham hospital is a real shame. I remember talking to a chap about frostbite and he said if he ever got a cold injury, no matter where he was in the world he'd ask to be taken to Chamonix hospital. Not any more, I guess.
I must have been lucky last week. After arriving by failicopter, I was x-rayed straight away on the place that the chopper medic told them he thought was broken. I wasn't asked if anywhere else hurt so I volunteered that info and was sent for more x-rays. They weren't sure if my break would require surgery so I was fairly swiftly taken by ambulance to Sallanches (the ambulance tech in the back with me slept for the whole journey). Once at the hospital in Sallanches, normal service was resumed. I had to wait ages on a trolly in the corridor until a surgeon could see me and I had to go to a pharmacy in town to get the required arm brace.
I forgot about the fog issues. I personally think the demise of Cham hospital is a real shame. I remember talking to a chap about frostbite and he said if he ever got a cold injury, no matter where he was in the world he'd ask to be taken to Chamonix hospital. Not any more, I guess.
I must have been lucky last week. After arriving by failicopter, I was x-rayed straight away on the place that the chopper medic told them he thought was broken. I wasn't asked if anywhere else hurt so I volunteered that info and was sent for more x-rays. They weren't sure if my break would require surgery so I was fairly swiftly taken by ambulance to Sallanches (the ambulance tech in the back with me slept for the whole journey). Once at the hospital in Sallanches, normal service was resumed. I had to wait ages on a trolly in the corridor until a surgeon could see me and I had to go to a pharmacy in town to get the required arm brace.
In reply to Mick's Daughter:
What happened to you then...?
The real shame about the hospital is that it was brand new, purpose built, filled with specialists in the fields of cold injuries and 'mountain trauma'. Two of the doctors were also guides and therefore often out with the helicopter and first on the scene, and didn't need looking after by someone else. Then a couple of years later they shut it. It's not like there wasn't a vigorous campaign to save it either, citing it as a special case...
What happened to you then...?
The real shame about the hospital is that it was brand new, purpose built, filled with specialists in the fields of cold injuries and 'mountain trauma'. Two of the doctors were also guides and therefore often out with the helicopter and first on the scene, and didn't need looking after by someone else. Then a couple of years later they shut it. It's not like there wasn't a vigorous campaign to save it either, citing it as a special case...
In reply to JTM:
Real shame. Everything I'd heard about the hospital/staff before I got out here was good.
I was the reason the chopper was called to the Argentiere hut last week unfortunately.
Real shame. Everything I'd heard about the hospital/staff before I got out here was good.
I was the reason the chopper was called to the Argentiere hut last week unfortunately.
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