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How do people afford to go on trips and expeditions abroad especially to the farther reaches such as South America and Himalaya etc.
Me and may partner both work full time, we don't smoke or drink much, no kids yet and I can only dream of going to these places trekking and climbing and cannot ever imagine having the money to to get to these places. Obviously we need to get a lot better paid jobs but I cant see that happening anytime soon!
Me and may partner both work full time, we don't smoke or drink much, no kids yet and I can only dream of going to these places trekking and climbing and cannot ever imagine having the money to to get to these places. Obviously we need to get a lot better paid jobs but I cant see that happening anytime soon!
In reply to mc2006:
No one can afford it! We had to move in to a cardboard box in a gutter next to the crag and live on baguette, €2 bottles of local wine and cheese.
It was that or rob banks.
Good luck!
No one can afford it! We had to move in to a cardboard box in a gutter next to the crag and live on baguette, €2 bottles of local wine and cheese.
It was that or rob banks.
Good luck!
In reply to mc2006:
I've lived in a van, in a tent, on a mate's couch, stopping at my mum's at the moment. I don't buy much at all, I don't own much apart from climbing gear and a cheap car. When I'm on a trip somewhere, I'm not paying for anything back at home, so long trips work out pretty cheap.
Your money must be going somewhere?
I've lived in a van, in a tent, on a mate's couch, stopping at my mum's at the moment. I don't buy much at all, I don't own much apart from climbing gear and a cheap car. When I'm on a trip somewhere, I'm not paying for anything back at home, so long trips work out pretty cheap.
Your money must be going somewhere?
In reply to MaranaF:
Haha im glad im not the only one in the same boat! Mountaineering is certainly not a poor mans hobby! Two years ago I changed careers and thought that I should now be able to get out to these amazing places, but wasn't that a big let down!!!!
Haha im glad im not the only one in the same boat! Mountaineering is certainly not a poor mans hobby! Two years ago I changed careers and thought that I should now be able to get out to these amazing places, but wasn't that a big let down!!!!
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
We do manage to save a bit each month, where not skint, we just cant save the thousands it costs to go to these places.
Our money goes on our mortgage and bills.
We do manage to save a bit each month, where not skint, we just cant save the thousands it costs to go to these places.
Our money goes on our mortgage and bills.
Post edited at 12:00
In reply to mc2006:
Do you know how much it actually costs? Possibly less than you think...
> We do manage to save a bit each month, where not skint, we just cant save the thousands it costs to go to these places.
Do you know how much it actually costs? Possibly less than you think...
In reply to mc2006:
"Mortgage"? I think you will find the common thread here is; no mortgage, no bills, no Sky TV, no BMW in the drive, no motorbike in the garage, no garage!
Sell the house, buy a ten year old van, what doesn't fit in the van you don't need [I had to make a roof box for tools etc]. Spend the next ten years bumming around the best climbing in Europe.
"Mortgage"? I think you will find the common thread here is; no mortgage, no bills, no Sky TV, no BMW in the drive, no motorbike in the garage, no garage!
Sell the house, buy a ten year old van, what doesn't fit in the van you don't need [I had to make a roof box for tools etc]. Spend the next ten years bumming around the best climbing in Europe.
In reply to mc2006:
You have one of those money pits, you know a house. You may have a small window of opportunity when you've paid off a bit more of the mortgage but before any children after that you'll have to wait until you're retired and hope your knees have held out.
I'm joking.. a bit... manic laugh.. then sobbing.
Cheers
Toby
You have one of those money pits, you know a house. You may have a small window of opportunity when you've paid off a bit more of the mortgage but before any children after that you'll have to wait until you're retired and hope your knees have held out.
I'm joking.. a bit... manic laugh.. then sobbing.
Cheers
Toby
In reply to mc2006:
Well, there you go. Turn off the heating and use candles for light. Or sell your house and live in a van, crashing on a mate's couch when it gets too cold.
You've chosen to buy a property and you will reap the reward for that decision when you've paid off your mortgage and are reasonably financially secure. You've also chosen the luxury of a warm and confortable bed every night (like most other people!)
Others spend every last penny they have on other stuff (trips/gear/etc) and are happy to rough it any way then can. But in 20 years time they may not have any savings at all, and financially will be in a much less secure place than you (and may well have a bad back!). But they will have had all the experiences that you won't have had.
It's all a balance, you've just got to choose your priorities.
> Our money goes on our mortgage and bills.
Well, there you go. Turn off the heating and use candles for light. Or sell your house and live in a van, crashing on a mate's couch when it gets too cold.
You've chosen to buy a property and you will reap the reward for that decision when you've paid off your mortgage and are reasonably financially secure. You've also chosen the luxury of a warm and confortable bed every night (like most other people!)
Others spend every last penny they have on other stuff (trips/gear/etc) and are happy to rough it any way then can. But in 20 years time they may not have any savings at all, and financially will be in a much less secure place than you (and may well have a bad back!). But they will have had all the experiences that you won't have had.
It's all a balance, you've just got to choose your priorities.
In reply to seankenny:
Well to be honest when I look at trips I would need to add the cost of a guide in to it or an organised trip which is a big cost.
Well to be honest when I look at trips I would need to add the cost of a guide in to it or an organised trip which is a big cost.
In reply to Alun:
Yes I agree, ah well looks like I will have to start putting the lottery on again.
Yes I agree, ah well looks like I will have to start putting the lottery on again.
In reply to mc2006:
I have 4 jobs and my boyfriend has 3. we rent a room in a shared house, eat at work when possible and live frugally. we don't drink or smoke and never go out. BUT we manage 3 or 4 trips abroad every year. Its what we live for
I have 4 jobs and my boyfriend has 3. we rent a room in a shared house, eat at work when possible and live frugally. we don't drink or smoke and never go out. BUT we manage 3 or 4 trips abroad every year. Its what we live for
In reply to mc2006: Do you run a car? You live in a city don't you? Have you been conditioned into believing that it's abnormal not to own a car?
Have you done much research into the cost of trips to the Alps? Cheap flights? I never have any problem taking both camping and climbing gear within the hold baggage allowance.
Have you done much research into the cost of trips to the Alps? Cheap flights? I never have any problem taking both camping and climbing gear within the hold baggage allowance.
In reply to MaranaF:
I wish I could. I certainly dont have all the other luxuries you said.
This is all my fault, I watched a documentary last night on K2 and every time I watch a film on places like that it makes me want to get out there.
I will have to wait until I retire which people are saying. Only 40 years to wait then. Haha.
I wish I could. I certainly dont have all the other luxuries you said.
This is all my fault, I watched a documentary last night on K2 and every time I watch a film on places like that it makes me want to get out there.
I will have to wait until I retire which people are saying. Only 40 years to wait then. Haha.
In reply to silhouette:
Yes live in Leeds and work in York so need a car to get to work. I understand though you need to be rich or stick to the bare minimum and have no luxuries and have the money for trips!
I looked at the alps this year but could not afford it but again, we were looking at a guide to learn from. (We do not have any friends who are into climbing, mountaineering to learn from) all our friends just spend their weekends getting drunk which is not my cup of tea anymore.
Yes live in Leeds and work in York so need a car to get to work. I understand though you need to be rich or stick to the bare minimum and have no luxuries and have the money for trips!
I looked at the alps this year but could not afford it but again, we were looking at a guide to learn from. (We do not have any friends who are into climbing, mountaineering to learn from) all our friends just spend their weekends getting drunk which is not my cup of tea anymore.
In reply to mc2006:
Sell the house, live in a van and save all your money. Pack the job in and go enjoy yourself. Might be worth having a safety net, maybe a friend with a spare room you could crash in temporarily, just in case.
Or spend decades of your life, which you will never have again, just getting by, dreaming of some future that might never arrive.
Okay, it's not quite that simple, but it's worth having a perspective on the choice you have.
Sell the house, live in a van and save all your money. Pack the job in and go enjoy yourself. Might be worth having a safety net, maybe a friend with a spare room you could crash in temporarily, just in case.
Or spend decades of your life, which you will never have again, just getting by, dreaming of some future that might never arrive.
Okay, it's not quite that simple, but it's worth having a perspective on the choice you have.
In reply to mc2006:
I learnt to do trekking in the Himalaya by, erm, going trekking in the Himalaya. It's just a fancy word for putting one foot in front of the other and camping at night. The last trip there I did in three weeks off work, and a good week of that trip was spent in Delhi.
For full disclosure, I drive an old car with a massive dent in the side door.
> Well to be honest when I look at trips I would need to add the cost of a guide in to it or an organised trip which is a big cost.
I learnt to do trekking in the Himalaya by, erm, going trekking in the Himalaya. It's just a fancy word for putting one foot in front of the other and camping at night. The last trip there I did in three weeks off work, and a good week of that trip was spent in Delhi.
For full disclosure, I drive an old car with a massive dent in the side door.
In reply to mc2006:
You don't need to waste money on a guide <ducks from hail of missiles>
Join a club if you don't have any climbing mates, download an Alps guide, research the routes until you're blue in the face and try it.
I did this in my 20's, no drama, camped in Snells field and gained the experience as I went along.
Guides would massively bump up the costs whereas experienced alpinists in a good club will give advice (and often their time) for free
You don't need to waste money on a guide <ducks from hail of missiles>
Join a club if you don't have any climbing mates, download an Alps guide, research the routes until you're blue in the face and try it.
I did this in my 20's, no drama, camped in Snells field and gained the experience as I went along.
Guides would massively bump up the costs whereas experienced alpinists in a good club will give advice (and often their time) for free
In reply to mc2006:
You have to be single really, not have a much of a rent to pay and more or less do just that. Also there are expeditions and expeditions, driving overland is cheaper than flying but not always possible. Also the three I went on got some help from a university, two we drove overland but for Bolivia we couldn't find a road!
PS. Just read the rest of the thread.. guides?! You must be kidding, even huts of telepheriques in the Alps is out.
PPS. To be honest I'm not sure how possible it is these days, things are so much more expensive and jobs hard to find, in the 70s renting a share of a flat was all cash in hand and you could get a job on a building site in an hour of searching, the world has changed but I think it is still possible as long as you have no family commitments, or a very very laid back partner
You have to be single really, not have a much of a rent to pay and more or less do just that. Also there are expeditions and expeditions, driving overland is cheaper than flying but not always possible. Also the three I went on got some help from a university, two we drove overland but for Bolivia we couldn't find a road!
PS. Just read the rest of the thread.. guides?! You must be kidding, even huts of telepheriques in the Alps is out.
PPS. To be honest I'm not sure how possible it is these days, things are so much more expensive and jobs hard to find, in the 70s renting a share of a flat was all cash in hand and you could get a job on a building site in an hour of searching, the world has changed but I think it is still possible as long as you have no family commitments, or a very very laid back partner
Post edited at 13:16
In reply to mc2006:
Perhaps you should set up a "Just Giving" page and solicit contributions from sympathetic UKC's for a trip to Bhutan ( classier than Nepal ) !
PS
If I'm up to it, I'll gladly take you on the Beciberri traverse, in exchange for a San Miguel !
Perhaps you should set up a "Just Giving" page and solicit contributions from sympathetic UKC's for a trip to Bhutan ( classier than Nepal ) !
PS
If I'm up to it, I'll gladly take you on the Beciberri traverse, in exchange for a San Miguel !
Post edited at 13:17
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
You are starting to sound like that annoyingly smug Travelodge advert. "There is no sleep till bedtime". I am going to give my business to Premier inn from now on.
> Sell the house, live in a van and save all your money. Pack the job in and go enjoy yourself.
You are starting to sound like that annoyingly smug Travelodge advert. "There is no sleep till bedtime". I am going to give my business to Premier inn from now on.
In reply to mc2006:
Don't wait, when you retire you're past it. Expeditions are for young people, unless you mean the luxury trips with a servant to carry you sack and make your tea.
> I will have to wait until I retire which people are saying. Only 40 years to wait then. Haha.
Don't wait, when you retire you're past it. Expeditions are for young people, unless you mean the luxury trips with a servant to carry you sack and make your tea.
In reply to silhouette:
It works out cheaper with a car if there are two of you as far as the Alps is concerned. You can doss in the car, move about and save money by going to supermarkets. Also cheap flights have to be booked in advance, not much flexibility.
It works out cheaper with a car if there are two of you as far as the Alps is concerned. You can doss in the car, move about and save money by going to supermarkets. Also cheap flights have to be booked in advance, not much flexibility.
In reply to mc2006:
Sorry to hear that you're feeling a bit limited. But there's some reasonable advice being given, not least to trust your own abilities, and that it might all cost a lot less than you think. It also depends on where you want to go and how technical a trip you're looking at.
For example, last Easter we went trekking in Nepal; over the winter we spent six months mostly in a van in Europe and Morocco. We thought we were skint before, but now we have a new understanding of what skint is. No pension, currently one usable car and no more van. I'd do it again in a heartbeat, but have no money. So it all begins again.
If you just wanted to go trekking in Nepal, then 3 weeks could cost you 1000 quid each, all in. That's a sensible budget, based on airfares at 600 return and no guides / porters (but including a hundred quid donation to a porters' benevolent fund). The more of you there are, the cheaper it gets with shared rooms etc.
Two thousand quid. I know it's a lot of money, but it's not insurmountable. Open a separate bank account and DD money into it. Top it up with birthday / Xmas / ebay / car boot funds. Ask relatives for money, especially the old ones. I'll send you twenty quid myself, just to get you started. Seriously - PM me.
You only regret the stuff you haven't done (except that time I threw up in public, obviously. Or buying that pension off a spiv in a shiny suit. But you know what I mean).
Martin
Sorry to hear that you're feeling a bit limited. But there's some reasonable advice being given, not least to trust your own abilities, and that it might all cost a lot less than you think. It also depends on where you want to go and how technical a trip you're looking at.
For example, last Easter we went trekking in Nepal; over the winter we spent six months mostly in a van in Europe and Morocco. We thought we were skint before, but now we have a new understanding of what skint is. No pension, currently one usable car and no more van. I'd do it again in a heartbeat, but have no money. So it all begins again.
If you just wanted to go trekking in Nepal, then 3 weeks could cost you 1000 quid each, all in. That's a sensible budget, based on airfares at 600 return and no guides / porters (but including a hundred quid donation to a porters' benevolent fund). The more of you there are, the cheaper it gets with shared rooms etc.
Two thousand quid. I know it's a lot of money, but it's not insurmountable. Open a separate bank account and DD money into it. Top it up with birthday / Xmas / ebay / car boot funds. Ask relatives for money, especially the old ones. I'll send you twenty quid myself, just to get you started. Seriously - PM me.
You only regret the stuff you haven't done (except that time I threw up in public, obviously. Or buying that pension off a spiv in a shiny suit. But you know what I mean).
Martin
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
Interesting thought, but why should a friend who has probably sacrificed their own dreams and aspirations for the security of their own home have to put up with someone else using their spare room as a "safety net"?
> Sell the house, live in a van and save all your money. Pack the job in and go enjoy yourself. Might be worth having a safety net, maybe a friend with a spare room you could crash in temporarily, just in case.
Interesting thought, but why should a friend who has probably sacrificed their own dreams and aspirations for the security of their own home have to put up with someone else using their spare room as a "safety net"?
In reply to mc2006:
Move to York or get a job in Leeds, and join a club, that will make a huge difference.
> Yes live in Leeds and work in York so need a car to get to work.
> we were looking at a guide to learn from. (We do not have any friends who are into climbing, mountaineering to learn from)
> we were looking at a guide to learn from. (We do not have any friends who are into climbing, mountaineering to learn from)
Move to York or get a job in Leeds, and join a club, that will make a huge difference.
In reply to mc2006:
Prioritisation. Living very cheaply both at home and away.
Alternatively, a very well paid contracting job or a trust fund.
Prioritisation. Living very cheaply both at home and away.
Alternatively, a very well paid contracting job or a trust fund.
In reply to mc2006:
even if you can only save £100 per month after 18months you will have £3600 between you,so start saving now! Don't just think about it or you will be in the same position the next time you get psyched watching a film!
lifes too short not to!
I'm going to climb el cap and having to do just that!its not easy but it is doable!
even if you can only save £100 per month after 18months you will have £3600 between you,so start saving now! Don't just think about it or you will be in the same position the next time you get psyched watching a film!
lifes too short not to!
I'm going to climb el cap and having to do just that!its not easy but it is doable!
In reply to mc2006:
Employing a guide is a very expensive option. The advice on joining a club is sound - most will run trips to the Alps and you can learn from more experienced companions. Larger groups can pool costs - it can sometimes be cheaper to rent a large apartment between several people than for a couple to camp.
The same goes for trips further afield - the most expensive trips are fully supported and gudied, but many companies provide different levels of support without guides, although there may a be leader. The difference is whether you take responsibility for yourself on the hill or rely on a guide to look after you. The more you are able to do for yourself the cheaper it becomes.
Employing a guide is a very expensive option. The advice on joining a club is sound - most will run trips to the Alps and you can learn from more experienced companions. Larger groups can pool costs - it can sometimes be cheaper to rent a large apartment between several people than for a couple to camp.
The same goes for trips further afield - the most expensive trips are fully supported and gudied, but many companies provide different levels of support without guides, although there may a be leader. The difference is whether you take responsibility for yourself on the hill or rely on a guide to look after you. The more you are able to do for yourself the cheaper it becomes.
In reply to mc2006:
mountaineering is not that expensive. do u live in the se and spend a fortune on rent perhaps? There is huge variations in costs for trips. self organised to Kyrgyzstan for example is less than half the cost of self organised in Nepal for example. If avoid chamonix and Swiss the alps can be climbed very cheaply.
mountaineering is not that expensive. do u live in the se and spend a fortune on rent perhaps? There is huge variations in costs for trips. self organised to Kyrgyzstan for example is less than half the cost of self organised in Nepal for example. If avoid chamonix and Swiss the alps can be climbed very cheaply.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Thank you for the advice. You right though by the time you retire your too buggered to enjoy it.
Thank you for the advice. You right though by the time you retire your too buggered to enjoy it.
In reply to maisie:
Thank you for that advice everyone its very appreciated.
I was living with gfs parents and we wanted our place, I didn't want to be paying expensive rent so saved up for 4 years to pay for a deposit on a house. If we didnt get a house then yes I could afford to travel but having somewhere to call ours is amazing and was a sensible thing to do I think.
Regarding jobs, I have been very lucky to get the job I have now so quitting to travel would be a def no! I do however get 5 weeks off at summer in which I can get out there.
Once again its been nice to hear people's opinions and im grateful to get advice.
Thank you for that advice everyone its very appreciated.
I was living with gfs parents and we wanted our place, I didn't want to be paying expensive rent so saved up for 4 years to pay for a deposit on a house. If we didnt get a house then yes I could afford to travel but having somewhere to call ours is amazing and was a sensible thing to do I think.
Regarding jobs, I have been very lucky to get the job I have now so quitting to travel would be a def no! I do however get 5 weeks off at summer in which I can get out there.
Once again its been nice to hear people's opinions and im grateful to get advice.
In reply to mc2006:
Oh I wouldn't say that...
Most of my retired friends are having the life of riley on snow, ice, rock and everything else.
If you have that attitude in your 20's you're definitely a glass half empty person. Get more optimistic and get living!
> Thank you for the advice. You right though by the time you retire your too buggered to enjoy it.
Oh I wouldn't say that...
Most of my retired friends are having the life of riley on snow, ice, rock and everything else.
If you have that attitude in your 20's you're definitely a glass half empty person. Get more optimistic and get living!
In reply to alasdair19:
No in Leeds, mortgage is a third of our income. Which I don't think is that bad. We chose a house well within our budget. I will look into self organised trips and see the price difference.
No in Leeds, mortgage is a third of our income. Which I don't think is that bad. We chose a house well within our budget. I will look into self organised trips and see the price difference.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Maybe with the airline prices of 1973 it was, but today? No way. Flying to exotic destinations is well cheap.
No, it's still possible. Big debts are the killer, tho.
> driving overland is cheaper than flying but not always possible.
Maybe with the airline prices of 1973 it was, but today? No way. Flying to exotic destinations is well cheap.
> PPS. To be honest I'm not sure how possible it is these days, things are so much more expensive and jobs hard to find,
No, it's still possible. Big debts are the killer, tho.
In reply to Babika:
Apologies if I offended, I just picture my grandad on my mums side who worked all his life and now hes crippled and cant do the things he wants. Yet my grandad on my old mans side has never ever worked a single day of his life and he is fit as a fiddle. I have seen this and it frustrates me.
Apologies if I offended, I just picture my grandad on my mums side who worked all his life and now hes crippled and cant do the things he wants. Yet my grandad on my old mans side has never ever worked a single day of his life and he is fit as a fiddle. I have seen this and it frustrates me.
In reply to mc2006:
Or you may have a heart attack and die a year or two before you retire. A few life experiences have taught me not to assume I'll make it to retirement as a guarantee. Try to live as you go along.
Squaring the circle of how to go climbing as much as you can while balancing it with other things you might be interested in is the eternal search for a climber. It's very very unusual for someone to 'have it all.'
Want to start a family further down the road? Want to do that within the context of a solid relationship? Want to do that in a home you're working towards owning, rather than renting? Want to build a career doing something you actually like, that pays enough for you to afford the above, and your hobbies? Want to retire at some point and afford to eat and to heat your home?
All of those things can put the breaks on quitting a job or drifting between crappy jobs, as can your friends' tolerance of having your stuff in their attic/garage and you on their sofa.
Or you may have a heart attack and die a year or two before you retire. A few life experiences have taught me not to assume I'll make it to retirement as a guarantee. Try to live as you go along.
Squaring the circle of how to go climbing as much as you can while balancing it with other things you might be interested in is the eternal search for a climber. It's very very unusual for someone to 'have it all.'
Want to start a family further down the road? Want to do that within the context of a solid relationship? Want to do that in a home you're working towards owning, rather than renting? Want to build a career doing something you actually like, that pays enough for you to afford the above, and your hobbies? Want to retire at some point and afford to eat and to heat your home?
All of those things can put the breaks on quitting a job or drifting between crappy jobs, as can your friends' tolerance of having your stuff in their attic/garage and you on their sofa.
In reply to mc2006:
In addition to what other people have said, this might sound trite but don't get too sold on the "Adventure Travel" marketing that says you need to go to Peru to "find yourself" or to Central Asia to have an adventure. Plenty to do on the cheap nearer home.
In addition to what other people have said, this might sound trite but don't get too sold on the "Adventure Travel" marketing that says you need to go to Peru to "find yourself" or to Central Asia to have an adventure. Plenty to do on the cheap nearer home.
In reply to Ramblin dave:
This chap is all about adventures close to home - he talks about seizing the 'five to nine' hours.
http://www.alastairhumphreys.com/microadventures-3/
This chap is all about adventures close to home - he talks about seizing the 'five to nine' hours.
http://www.alastairhumphreys.com/microadventures-3/
In reply to mc2006:
It doesn't have to be that expensive. Even when I've been really broke, I've just hitched and camped. Especially if you can be flexible and get whichever flights are cheapest...
Why not look at where is cheap and go there, rather than thinking it has to be in a different continent?
It doesn't have to be that expensive. Even when I've been really broke, I've just hitched and camped. Especially if you can be flexible and get whichever flights are cheapest...
Why not look at where is cheap and go there, rather than thinking it has to be in a different continent?
In reply to mc2006:
That's where you failed, mortgage and girlfriend, high maintenance no doubt, the commited don the habbit and join the ranks of the mountain monk, a vow of chastity, tending goats, living the simple life of seasonal jobs, all you own in a cardboard box, climbing mountains is then easy.
I didn't have a penny back then and have been to Alaska twice, south America three times, Nepal, southern alps etc...
That's where you failed, mortgage and girlfriend, high maintenance no doubt, the commited don the habbit and join the ranks of the mountain monk, a vow of chastity, tending goats, living the simple life of seasonal jobs, all you own in a cardboard box, climbing mountains is then easy.
I didn't have a penny back then and have been to Alaska twice, south America three times, Nepal, southern alps etc...
Post edited at 16:56
In reply to mc2006:
I never did the travelling bit when I was younger, and it's one of the few things I regret. As you get older, time truly accelerates and before you know it, the practicalities of day-to-day life may be your priority. As others have said, try to get in the habit of saving regularly (a good rule of thumb is to tuck away 10% of your income), and keep focused on your goal. Also, it might be worth 'conditioning' yourself by planning progressively more ambitious destinations. Begin with independent trips to the Alps, or a month in Greece for that matter, and learn the wily tricks of the frugal traveller!
I never did the travelling bit when I was younger, and it's one of the few things I regret. As you get older, time truly accelerates and before you know it, the practicalities of day-to-day life may be your priority. As others have said, try to get in the habit of saving regularly (a good rule of thumb is to tuck away 10% of your income), and keep focused on your goal. Also, it might be worth 'conditioning' yourself by planning progressively more ambitious destinations. Begin with independent trips to the Alps, or a month in Greece for that matter, and learn the wily tricks of the frugal traveller!
In reply to mc2006:
I can share your pain though I know the causes of my own: mortgage (on a nice flat which is great to live in), a dog (I hate leaving him behind) and a wife who can't fly without getting crippling ear & sinus pain that last for days / weeks, has a seious spider phobia and skin issues with sunlight!
However I do get away within the UK a fair bit and that's gives me a lot to play with, more than I can use.
I can share your pain though I know the causes of my own: mortgage (on a nice flat which is great to live in), a dog (I hate leaving him behind) and a wife who can't fly without getting crippling ear & sinus pain that last for days / weeks, has a seious spider phobia and skin issues with sunlight!
However I do get away within the UK a fair bit and that's gives me a lot to play with, more than I can use.
In reply to mc2006:
Also, maybe look at places that are slightly tamer than the Alps, and you could do more easily without a guide? Easier if you don't have to learn glacier travel. Dolomites via ferrata. Pyrenees walks and scrambles. Loads of fun, and very affordable if you camp.
Also, maybe look at places that are slightly tamer than the Alps, and you could do more easily without a guide? Easier if you don't have to learn glacier travel. Dolomites via ferrata. Pyrenees walks and scrambles. Loads of fun, and very affordable if you camp.
In reply to mc2006:
I know it's hard, but be patient! We couldn't afford trips like that until our late 30's.
I know it's hard, but be patient! We couldn't afford trips like that until our late 30's.
In reply to seankenny:
With a ton of gear and food? It also depends a lot on the destination surely?
> Maybe with the airline prices of 1973 it was, but today? No way. Flying to exotic destinations is well cheap.
With a ton of gear and food? It also depends a lot on the destination surely?
In reply to mc2006:
Houses don't have to be expensive. Rent out as much of it as possible to other people. It can be possible to cover mortgage payments and majority of bills... you still have the security of owning a home later down the line and get to live rent free!
Houses don't have to be expensive. Rent out as much of it as possible to other people. It can be possible to cover mortgage payments and majority of bills... you still have the security of owning a home later down the line and get to live rent free!
In reply to mc2006:
Another problem of leaving things is that once you have a wife and kids and a mortgage and a dog and all the other delights of responsibility are you really going to be able to head off with some mates doing something which you might well not come back from just for the fun of it? It's not just about the money... the time to do it is when you're young and single and only your parents will miss you, but the young never worry about them... until they become parents themselves.
There are other ways of enjoying climbing though but even they don't fit in well with a family There's always dominoes though.
Another problem of leaving things is that once you have a wife and kids and a mortgage and a dog and all the other delights of responsibility are you really going to be able to head off with some mates doing something which you might well not come back from just for the fun of it? It's not just about the money... the time to do it is when you're young and single and only your parents will miss you, but the young never worry about them... until they become parents themselves.
There are other ways of enjoying climbing though but even they don't fit in well with a family There's always dominoes though.
In reply to mc2006:
Overseas trips are easy for you.... just head north or south or west from your house and climb where Yorkshire ends
Overseas trips are easy for you.... just head north or south or west from your house and climb where Yorkshire ends
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Yes I understand that but you could die on the way to work so I wouldn't really think about going on trips now for that reason.
Yes I understand that but you could die on the way to work so I wouldn't really think about going on trips now for that reason.
In reply to Offwidth:
Haha yes very good. Leaving leeds behind to go to the lakes is like a different world!
Haha yes very good. Leaving leeds behind to go to the lakes is like a different world!
In reply to mc2006:
depends what your expectations are 4 of us saved for a year ,bought an old laundry van,converted it ourselves filled it with all the gear ,and as much food as we could,took ourselves of for a year Atlas and Morroco for 6 month and Alps for rest ..and we crossed part of the Sahara in the Van..rented our house and we had a great time ...
depends what your expectations are 4 of us saved for a year ,bought an old laundry van,converted it ourselves filled it with all the gear ,and as much food as we could,took ourselves of for a year Atlas and Morroco for 6 month and Alps for rest ..and we crossed part of the Sahara in the Van..rented our house and we had a great time ...
In reply to mc2006:
I think you getting the idea that everyone other than yourselves is jetting off to Nepal or south America every weekend when in reality most people are just happy to get to north Wales to camp and climb for a few weekends. It's the reporting bias, if you've just climbed Denali you're going to tell everyone about it.
I'm sure if you sat opposite someone who earned a lot less than yourselves you'd find out where your money goes and if you did the same with someone who goes on all these expeds you so desire you'd realise how they pay for them (either by being minted or more likely by sacrifice).
I think you getting the idea that everyone other than yourselves is jetting off to Nepal or south America every weekend when in reality most people are just happy to get to north Wales to camp and climb for a few weekends. It's the reporting bias, if you've just climbed Denali you're going to tell everyone about it.
I'm sure if you sat opposite someone who earned a lot less than yourselves you'd find out where your money goes and if you did the same with someone who goes on all these expeds you so desire you'd realise how they pay for them (either by being minted or more likely by sacrifice).
In reply to gethin_allen:
Yes I think you hit the nail on the head, but I dont want to go to these places because others have, I want to because I would love to see the places and adventure.
Yes I think you hit the nail on the head, but I dont want to go to these places because others have, I want to because I would love to see the places and adventure.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
The trick is to not take a ton of gear and buy your food when you get there. If it doesn't fit within your baggage allowance it doesn't go.
> With a ton of gear and food? It also depends a lot on the destination surely?
The trick is to not take a ton of gear and buy your food when you get there. If it doesn't fit within your baggage allowance it doesn't go.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Well... yeah. We just go together, as although we are married, we are also mates, strangely enough, and we got the neighbours to look after the cat before he died...
Reading that microadventure man's site, he said something about people focus on all the obstacles in the way of them having an adventure, instead of working out how they can fit in an adventure...
When I was broke, I hitchhiked and camped.
When I had no time I flew and went for weekends or a week
When I was married to someone who wouldn't let me go, I went in the UK, for weekends.
When I had no one to go with, I joined clubs.
When I had no car I shared lifts
When I had no climbing gear, I borrowed it.
When I lived miles from any rock, I climbed indoors.
If you think about what you CAN fit in, what you CAN do, then there are always adventures to be had!
> Another problem of leaving things is that once you have a wife and kids and a mortgage and a dog and all the other delights of responsibility
Well... yeah. We just go together, as although we are married, we are also mates, strangely enough, and we got the neighbours to look after the cat before he died...
Reading that microadventure man's site, he said something about people focus on all the obstacles in the way of them having an adventure, instead of working out how they can fit in an adventure...
When I was broke, I hitchhiked and camped.
When I had no time I flew and went for weekends or a week
When I was married to someone who wouldn't let me go, I went in the UK, for weekends.
When I had no one to go with, I joined clubs.
When I had no car I shared lifts
When I had no climbing gear, I borrowed it.
When I lived miles from any rock, I climbed indoors.
If you think about what you CAN fit in, what you CAN do, then there are always adventures to be had!
In reply to mc2006:
It's easy to be put off by looking at the prices of expeditions on places like the Jagged Globe website.
For example, JG would charge £2495 for a 13 day guided ascent of Elbrus. I did the same trip last year with three friends for £550.
To echo what seems to be being said above, there comes a point where you've just got to give it a bash!
It's easy to be put off by looking at the prices of expeditions on places like the Jagged Globe website.
For example, JG would charge £2495 for a 13 day guided ascent of Elbrus. I did the same trip last year with three friends for £550.
To echo what seems to be being said above, there comes a point where you've just got to give it a bash!
In reply to OwenM:
It depends what you want to do though, doesn't it? Tents and compact food aren't available everywhere and even individual gear for a few months weighs a bit... If there are 6 of you driving is still the cheapest, the problems are political though nowadays.
> The trick is to not take a ton of gear and buy your food when you get there. If it doesn't fit within your baggage allowance it doesn't go.
It depends what you want to do though, doesn't it? Tents and compact food aren't available everywhere and even individual gear for a few months weighs a bit... If there are 6 of you driving is still the cheapest, the problems are political though nowadays.
In reply to mc2006:
if it's a third of joint income get your trips in now cause add kids to the equation and holiday money will be pretty tight. However that's not to say it's not sensible. I was lucky as I did lots of learning in the mountains when young and had a bunch of friends to share in experience with! A good club iis a great way to share experience and cost.
if it's a third of joint income get your trips in now cause add kids to the equation and holiday money will be pretty tight. However that's not to say it's not sensible. I was lucky as I did lots of learning in the mountains when young and had a bunch of friends to share in experience with! A good club iis a great way to share experience and cost.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
As ever, Bruce is offering the best advice... for 1975! In the modern world, flights to the Himalaya for six will be around three grand, I very much doubt you'd be able to get a van for six and drive it to Kathmandu for that price.
If you need things that can't be bought over there, it can be shipped easily enough. But for most trekking you don't need fancy freeze dried food - I've done a bunch of trips with nothing more than the food I could buy in the bazaar at the trailhead.
> It depends what you want to do though, doesn't it? Tents and compact food aren't available everywhere and even individual gear for a few months weighs a bit... If there are 6 of you driving is still the cheapest, the problems are political though nowadays.
As ever, Bruce is offering the best advice... for 1975! In the modern world, flights to the Himalaya for six will be around three grand, I very much doubt you'd be able to get a van for six and drive it to Kathmandu for that price.
If you need things that can't be bought over there, it can be shipped easily enough. But for most trekking you don't need fancy freeze dried food - I've done a bunch of trips with nothing more than the food I could buy in the bazaar at the trailhead.
Post edited at 09:40
In reply to tlm:
TBF, kids do tend to get in the way a touch more than a wife; neighbours (and even grandparents...) are less keen to look after a couple of preschoolers than a cat
Not that having kids stops you doing everything by any means.... wild camping is free, and a proper adventure for a toddler!
> Well... yeah. We just go together, as although we are married, we are also mates, strangely enough, and we got the neighbours to look after the cat before he died...
TBF, kids do tend to get in the way a touch more than a wife; neighbours (and even grandparents...) are less keen to look after a couple of preschoolers than a cat
Not that having kids stops you doing everything by any means.... wild camping is free, and a proper adventure for a toddler!
In reply to Carolyn:
Quite. We have two kids and made a conscious decision that the overseas adventures would start again when the youngest was five. Last year we went to Nepal with them and both got up to annapurna base camp quite happily (did cost a lot more money than when we were young and unencumbered, though)
Before that it was Europe in the van, climbing and surfing. For those trips, the kids only cost us the price of the food they ate
Martin
> Not that having kids stops you doing everything by any means.... wild camping is free, and a proper adventure for a toddler!
Quite. We have two kids and made a conscious decision that the overseas adventures would start again when the youngest was five. Last year we went to Nepal with them and both got up to annapurna base camp quite happily (did cost a lot more money than when we were young and unencumbered, though)
Before that it was Europe in the van, climbing and surfing. For those trips, the kids only cost us the price of the food they ate
Martin
In reply to Carolyn:
I know - I have friends with kids who made a real effort to get out with them, but I don't think it's just the practical difficulties (the extra costs, the extra gear, the choice of activities, the need for supervision, the need to take responsibility for if they are cold, tired, wet, hungry, need sunprotection, thirsty, can't carry their own kit, don't like the activities and all the rest). I think your priorities also change, especially once your kids have their own commitments at weekends. That's why I will always offer to babysit - no matter what effort it is to me, it is worth so much more to the parents! And actually, it's fun when it is for a short burst of time!
> TBF, kids do tend to get in the way a touch more than a wife; neighbours (and even grandparents...) are less keen to look after a couple of preschoolers than a cat
I know - I have friends with kids who made a real effort to get out with them, but I don't think it's just the practical difficulties (the extra costs, the extra gear, the choice of activities, the need for supervision, the need to take responsibility for if they are cold, tired, wet, hungry, need sunprotection, thirsty, can't carry their own kit, don't like the activities and all the rest). I think your priorities also change, especially once your kids have their own commitments at weekends. That's why I will always offer to babysit - no matter what effort it is to me, it is worth so much more to the parents! And actually, it's fun when it is for a short burst of time!
> Not that having kids stops you doing everything by any means.... wild camping is free, and a proper adventure for a toddler!
In reply to maisie:
My younger one is now five and it's definitely time to move beyond ski resorts and Font (and all kids of local lakes stuff). I have them convinced that trekking in Morocco would be a lot more fun (and a lot cheaper) than staying in Marrakesh for the whole week
My younger one is now five and it's definitely time to move beyond ski resorts and Font (and all kids of local lakes stuff). I have them convinced that trekking in Morocco would be a lot more fun (and a lot cheaper) than staying in Marrakesh for the whole week
In reply to tlm:
I find it's the lack of planning time that's the real problem (though easier now they're a bit older), because it makes it so much harder to do things cheaply (and be confident you've planned for what the kids need), and it means we've gone back to places like Font that we know well, rather than head to new places.
Convincing them that climbing is more fun than football hasn't been a problem - the older one shrugged his shoulders when his cousin gave him her outgrown football boots, but insisted on wearing his first pair of fell shoes for 3 days solid, regardless of activity. The younger one chose a pair of rock boots and a penknife for his 5th birthday. The indoctrination is going well so far......
I find it's the lack of planning time that's the real problem (though easier now they're a bit older), because it makes it so much harder to do things cheaply (and be confident you've planned for what the kids need), and it means we've gone back to places like Font that we know well, rather than head to new places.
Convincing them that climbing is more fun than football hasn't been a problem - the older one shrugged his shoulders when his cousin gave him her outgrown football boots, but insisted on wearing his first pair of fell shoes for 3 days solid, regardless of activity. The younger one chose a pair of rock boots and a penknife for his 5th birthday. The indoctrination is going well so far......
In reply to tlm:
PS I offer free, comfortable accommodation in the Lake District for those who like to babysit
PS I offer free, comfortable accommodation in the Lake District for those who like to babysit
In reply to Carolyn:
Morocco is ace - we were there for a few weeks before Xmas. We skirted round the Atlas, but went to Tafraoute for a bit. Depending on the time of year you go there's potential for a BRILLIANT adventure on Jebel el Kest.
If you do have time as well, try to get down to Merzouga, on the edge of the Sahara. There are a few dunes which are several hundred feet high, which the kids will love.
Sorry for the hijack
Martin
> My younger one is now five and it's definitely time to move beyond ski resorts and Font (and all kids of local lakes stuff). I have them convinced that trekking in Morocco would be a lot more fun (and a lot cheaper) than staying in Marrakesh for the whole week
Morocco is ace - we were there for a few weeks before Xmas. We skirted round the Atlas, but went to Tafraoute for a bit. Depending on the time of year you go there's potential for a BRILLIANT adventure on Jebel el Kest.
If you do have time as well, try to get down to Merzouga, on the edge of the Sahara. There are a few dunes which are several hundred feet high, which the kids will love.
Sorry for the hijack
Martin
In reply to seankenny:
A friend of mine just drove his Toyota from Baku to England for a lot less than that, and the roads are a lot better now, tarmac all the way. I thought the subject was mountaineering, not trekking? But anyway the situation has changed for going further East than Turkey. I haven't done the sums but overland to Central Asia might still be fun, missing out the Ukraine. Kathmandu is perhaps special as being popular you can buy gear but in less popular places for people wanting to do something adventurous buying gear might not be easy, nor cheap... Personally I would always prefer my own gear anyway, although for me the problem is iunlikely to arise now.
Shipping gear is an option, we did that for Bolivia, but it's not without risk either. At the time charter flights already existed but not to La Paz, we had to go to Philadelphia, bus to Miami, plane to Lima, bus, steamer and train to La Paz. That was the cheapest way, also the most interesting. One new problem for overland travel could be the cost of visas, they used to be free or cheap, now they cost an arm and a leg, so if you need to pay for each country crossed your solution of a direct flight could work out cheaper. You're right to say conditions change and it's always best to check out all options in advance.
A friend of mine just drove his Toyota from Baku to England for a lot less than that, and the roads are a lot better now, tarmac all the way. I thought the subject was mountaineering, not trekking? But anyway the situation has changed for going further East than Turkey. I haven't done the sums but overland to Central Asia might still be fun, missing out the Ukraine. Kathmandu is perhaps special as being popular you can buy gear but in less popular places for people wanting to do something adventurous buying gear might not be easy, nor cheap... Personally I would always prefer my own gear anyway, although for me the problem is iunlikely to arise now.
Shipping gear is an option, we did that for Bolivia, but it's not without risk either. At the time charter flights already existed but not to La Paz, we had to go to Philadelphia, bus to Miami, plane to Lima, bus, steamer and train to La Paz. That was the cheapest way, also the most interesting. One new problem for overland travel could be the cost of visas, they used to be free or cheap, now they cost an arm and a leg, so if you need to pay for each country crossed your solution of a direct flight could work out cheaper. You're right to say conditions change and it's always best to check out all options in advance.
In reply to Carolyn:
For me once you have kids it's finished, in my case their mother wasn't keen anyway, to put it mildly, but I think it is rather risky - I don't mind having the shits for a month and losing a couple of stones but I wouldn't force it on anyone else, let alone on young children. Is Morocco considered safe these days? I just had a look for Algeria and most of the country is considered risky by the Foreign Office. The price of the visa was a body blow too - £85! And that's just for a tourist, for work it's £270, and the fee is not refunded if the visa is refused!
For me once you have kids it's finished, in my case their mother wasn't keen anyway, to put it mildly, but I think it is rather risky - I don't mind having the shits for a month and losing a couple of stones but I wouldn't force it on anyone else, let alone on young children. Is Morocco considered safe these days? I just had a look for Algeria and most of the country is considered risky by the Foreign Office. The price of the visa was a body blow too - £85! And that's just for a tourist, for work it's £270, and the fee is not refunded if the visa is refused!
i manage 2 or 3 decent trips a year. I dont get paid loads, but my only constant outgoing is rent in shared accommodation(includes all bills).
I use a pay as you go cheap mobile phone and don't eat out/get take away (except special occasions). I don't own much/buy many possessions.
While i am away i will still eat cheaply/live in a tent and cook my own food.
find cheap flights.
hitchhike/ take bus/trains instead of taxi's when possible.
Do all planning yourself and climb within you leading limit so you don't need an expensive guide/travel agents.
Post edited at 13:52
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Morocco - much more so than large parts of Algeria, certainly (and no visa needed for under 90 days, I think). Safe enough for the mainstream "adventure" companies to run family holidays there.
It's all a balance, isn't it - very obvious benefits to them seeing the rest of the world doesn't live in quite the same way, but there are certainly places I'd avoid til they're rather older (eg would rather delay anti-malarials til they're a bit bigger)
Morocco - much more so than large parts of Algeria, certainly (and no visa needed for under 90 days, I think). Safe enough for the mainstream "adventure" companies to run family holidays there.
It's all a balance, isn't it - very obvious benefits to them seeing the rest of the world doesn't live in quite the same way, but there are certainly places I'd avoid til they're rather older (eg would rather delay anti-malarials til they're a bit bigger)
In reply to mc2006:
Ok, slightly off track from climbing expeditions, but my last major trip was motorbiking through the himalayas - 4 weeks, including flights, motorbike hire, acomm, food etc was just over £1000. Cheap!
Ok, slightly off track from climbing expeditions, but my last major trip was motorbiking through the himalayas - 4 weeks, including flights, motorbike hire, acomm, food etc was just over £1000. Cheap!
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Bruce!
The world has moved on somewhat: when we first went to India and Nepal, 20 years ago, I put on a stone (cast iron stomach from being immersed in cow sh*t all day) and my wife lost the same. We wouldn't have entertained the idea of taking children.
Last year, we took two smallies, stayed in the usual dives, ate in local places as much as possible and there wasn't a loose stool between us. Nepal in particular is different now.
As to using Algeria to muddy Morocco's reputation, just stop it. I seem to remember having one half of a conversation with you about the political situation in Morocco; you ducked out when it was clear that you couldn't get away with applying your usual 'insight'. To paraphrase the advert, 'Algeria; Morocco. Different countries; different political climates'.
I think Sean nailed it when he endorsed your advice entirely - for people wishing to travel in 1975. It's a shame, because you've clearly done some stuff. Why not tell the stories for their own interest, rather than to try to belittle others' plans?
Martin
> For me once you have kids it's finished, in my case their mother wasn't keen anyway, to put it mildly, but I think it is rather risky - I don't mind having the shits for a month and losing a couple of stones but I wouldn't force it on anyone else, let alone on young children. Is Morocco considered safe these days? I just had a look for Algeria and most of the country is considered risky by the Foreign Office. The price of the visa was a body blow too - £85!
Bruce!
The world has moved on somewhat: when we first went to India and Nepal, 20 years ago, I put on a stone (cast iron stomach from being immersed in cow sh*t all day) and my wife lost the same. We wouldn't have entertained the idea of taking children.
Last year, we took two smallies, stayed in the usual dives, ate in local places as much as possible and there wasn't a loose stool between us. Nepal in particular is different now.
As to using Algeria to muddy Morocco's reputation, just stop it. I seem to remember having one half of a conversation with you about the political situation in Morocco; you ducked out when it was clear that you couldn't get away with applying your usual 'insight'. To paraphrase the advert, 'Algeria; Morocco. Different countries; different political climates'.
I think Sean nailed it when he endorsed your advice entirely - for people wishing to travel in 1975. It's a shame, because you've clearly done some stuff. Why not tell the stories for their own interest, rather than to try to belittle others' plans?
Martin
In reply to maisie:
Having said that, Bruce's suggestion of going to Central Asia overland is pretty good. A friend of mine did the Mongol Rally in an old Fiesta with his dad and it was pretty cheap and a great trip, all the way to Ulaan Bator. They went through Russia and it's good roads all the way, visas weren't extortionate, it looked like excellent fun.
However... personally I'm not a fan of taking one's own car into Asia, it's another thing to worry about and more importantly it puts you in a little bubble with your mates. Buses, trains, donkeys, everything's a bit more in your face that way imho. There's nothing like having a bus crash and leave you stranded on the side of the Karakoram Highway for self-reliance )
Having said that, Bruce's suggestion of going to Central Asia overland is pretty good. A friend of mine did the Mongol Rally in an old Fiesta with his dad and it was pretty cheap and a great trip, all the way to Ulaan Bator. They went through Russia and it's good roads all the way, visas weren't extortionate, it looked like excellent fun.
However... personally I'm not a fan of taking one's own car into Asia, it's another thing to worry about and more importantly it puts you in a little bubble with your mates. Buses, trains, donkeys, everything's a bit more in your face that way imho. There's nothing like having a bus crash and leave you stranded on the side of the Karakoram Highway for self-reliance )
In reply to maisie:
I wasn't aware I was doing that! I checked out Algeria for work possibility for my son just a few days ago and was surprised to see the rating the FO gave it - I knew about the "spot of bother" in the South the other day and I wondered if it was the same in Morocco... It's nothing to do with politics it's just where the nasties decide to kill people.
Morocco is one of the more stable countries in N Africa, on and off and it's often in the news in France for obvious reasons so I know what's going on there. The political situation is a bit like Tunisia used to be, stable but not altogether democratic but much used by French tourist operators. Now Tunisia has had it's "spring" and the tourists have left, Morocco hasn't so is probably doing better... for the average man or women in the casbah it's not evident which country is better. For the "ethical" tourist neither... but if you only wanted to climb in politically correct countries you wouldn't get much done.
> As to using Algeria to muddy Morocco's reputation, just stop it.
I wasn't aware I was doing that! I checked out Algeria for work possibility for my son just a few days ago and was surprised to see the rating the FO gave it - I knew about the "spot of bother" in the South the other day and I wondered if it was the same in Morocco... It's nothing to do with politics it's just where the nasties decide to kill people.
Morocco is one of the more stable countries in N Africa, on and off and it's often in the news in France for obvious reasons so I know what's going on there. The political situation is a bit like Tunisia used to be, stable but not altogether democratic but much used by French tourist operators. Now Tunisia has had it's "spring" and the tourists have left, Morocco hasn't so is probably doing better... for the average man or women in the casbah it's not evident which country is better. For the "ethical" tourist neither... but if you only wanted to climb in politically correct countries you wouldn't get much done.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
If meddling in Africa, supporting the Rwandan genocide and blowing up protestor's ships in foreign harbors was a concern to climbers, Font would be fabulously quiet.
> but if you only wanted to climb in politically correct countries you wouldn't get much done.
If meddling in Africa, supporting the Rwandan genocide and blowing up protestor's ships in foreign harbors was a concern to climbers, Font would be fabulously quiet.
In reply to seankenny:
I've always been in self organised groups with climbing as the objective, nowadays I'm shocked at how little tourism we did, I've hundreds of photos of the mountains but very few of the places we went through. Weeks spent in Kabul are recorded by a few photos of us repairing the lorry and few of the town which is a pity as it was pretty well destroyed not long after. You do get contact with local life though, finding spares, dealing with officialdom, certainly more than from an aeroplane but in our early twenties we were a bit one-tracked for getting to the mountains. You still do the road-movie bit especially with an old banger. You got stuck when the coach broke down but we were stuck too and then had to hitch hike to the next town to have a valve made up... the cylinder head came off twice by the side of the road
For Maisie: when I went to Afghanistan it was a monarchy then a pseudo republic, Pakistan was about to hang Bhuuto and Bolivia had had a fascist takeover by Banzer so I don't think mentioning safety aspects is knocking people's plans, it was doing the same with children that I questioned - also the world is a far more dangerous place in Asia and N Africa than it used to be, there's nothing wrong in saying so.
I've always been in self organised groups with climbing as the objective, nowadays I'm shocked at how little tourism we did, I've hundreds of photos of the mountains but very few of the places we went through. Weeks spent in Kabul are recorded by a few photos of us repairing the lorry and few of the town which is a pity as it was pretty well destroyed not long after. You do get contact with local life though, finding spares, dealing with officialdom, certainly more than from an aeroplane but in our early twenties we were a bit one-tracked for getting to the mountains. You still do the road-movie bit especially with an old banger. You got stuck when the coach broke down but we were stuck too and then had to hitch hike to the next town to have a valve made up... the cylinder head came off twice by the side of the road
For Maisie: when I went to Afghanistan it was a monarchy then a pseudo republic, Pakistan was about to hang Bhuuto and Bolivia had had a fascist takeover by Banzer so I don't think mentioning safety aspects is knocking people's plans, it was doing the same with children that I questioned - also the world is a far more dangerous place in Asia and N Africa than it used to be, there's nothing wrong in saying so.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
It's kind of sod's law - not something one would necessarily think of at the time, but all the 'stuff around the climbing' sounds in some ways more interesting than the climbing itself, to the outsider; after all, the mountains are likely to have changed less than the places you went through to get to them.
> I've always been in self organised groups with climbing as the objective, nowadays I'm shocked at how little tourism we did, I've hundreds of photos of the mountains but very few of the places we went through. Weeks spent in Kabul are recorded by a few photos of us repairing the lorry and few of the town which is a pity as it was pretty well destroyed not long after. You do get contact with local life though, finding spares, dealing with officialdom, certainly more than from an aeroplane but in our early twenties we were a bit one-tracked for getting to the mountains. You still do the road-movie bit especially with an old banger. You got stuck when the coach broke down but we were stuck too and then had to hitch hike to the next town to have a valve made up... the cylinder head came off twice by the side of the road
It's kind of sod's law - not something one would necessarily think of at the time, but all the 'stuff around the climbing' sounds in some ways more interesting than the climbing itself, to the outsider; after all, the mountains are likely to have changed less than the places you went through to get to them.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
No, I don't buy it. You were sledging into taking kids on trips, to places with which you're not up to date. Not helpful.
But the rest of your post is a cracker, Bruce. You should talk about your travels more - on an outdoor forum, it'd be pure gold. An article or two, perhaps - the old reactionary as a young Turk?
> so I don't think mentioning safety aspects is knocking people's plans, it was doing the same with children that I questioned - also the world is a far more dangerous place in Asia and N Africa than it used to be, there's nothing wrong in saying so.
No, I don't buy it. You were sledging into taking kids on trips, to places with which you're not up to date. Not helpful.
But the rest of your post is a cracker, Bruce. You should talk about your travels more - on an outdoor forum, it'd be pure gold. An article or two, perhaps - the old reactionary as a young Turk?
In reply to mc2006:
Well I don't travel for pleasure abroad myself- work only
( lots to see in cold wet Scotland)
But a chap I met in a hotel in the North West , worked seasonally in the UK then headed off abroad to explore the rest of the year.
(No house, no car, no steady relationship, ( no kids) no worries! )
Well I don't travel for pleasure abroad myself- work only
( lots to see in cold wet Scotland)
But a chap I met in a hotel in the North West , worked seasonally in the UK then headed off abroad to explore the rest of the year.
(No house, no car, no steady relationship, ( no kids) no worries! )
In reply to Jim C:
That's sounds very appealing. For my job I travel to Glasgow sometimes and that's the closest I get to going abroad for me to work!! Haha.
That's sounds very appealing. For my job I travel to Glasgow sometimes and that's the closest I get to going abroad for me to work!! Haha.
In reply to maisie:
Not sure if you noticed but Bruce's profile contains a link to his website which has some lovely writing about his expeditions: http://www.windmillweb.info/climbing/climbing_home_page.htm
Not sure if you noticed but Bruce's profile contains a link to his website which has some lovely writing about his expeditions: http://www.windmillweb.info/climbing/climbing_home_page.htm
In reply to mc2006:
I seem to remember when I first left uni about 15 years ago I started work in central London. Despite only being on 18k I lived in a shared house in 10 mins train from Liverpool Street, went out on the lash too frequently and seemed to be away most weekends. I bought a car that year, went on a commercial trek to Nepal and went to the alps for 3 weeks.
Later in 2006 I had 3 months off work despite having a mortgage and travelled around south america. I also went to Canada, Eastern Turkey and the alps that year.
I guess if the desire is there you can make it happen!
I seem to remember when I first left uni about 15 years ago I started work in central London. Despite only being on 18k I lived in a shared house in 10 mins train from Liverpool Street, went out on the lash too frequently and seemed to be away most weekends. I bought a car that year, went on a commercial trek to Nepal and went to the alps for 3 weeks.
Later in 2006 I had 3 months off work despite having a mortgage and travelled around south america. I also went to Canada, Eastern Turkey and the alps that year.
I guess if the desire is there you can make it happen!
In reply to mc2006:
I know this may not help, but unless you and your partner have particularly badly paid jobs I'd look carefully at where your money is going. I'm a student doing a second degree, so my disposable income (after £9k a year fees paid by bursary, student loan and savings) is £200 a month from a part time job. My OH is a nurse about 3 years qualified, so not exactly on a banker's salary. We have a house with a mortgage, run 2 cars and 2 motorbikes and have 18 pets with the associated costs in food, insurance and vets bills. We can't currently afford foreign holidays (last year we stayed in a pod in Scotland), but as soon as I have a proper job we'll have more money than we know what to do with (and probably no time to spend it)!
I know this may not help, but unless you and your partner have particularly badly paid jobs I'd look carefully at where your money is going. I'm a student doing a second degree, so my disposable income (after £9k a year fees paid by bursary, student loan and savings) is £200 a month from a part time job. My OH is a nurse about 3 years qualified, so not exactly on a banker's salary. We have a house with a mortgage, run 2 cars and 2 motorbikes and have 18 pets with the associated costs in food, insurance and vets bills. We can't currently afford foreign holidays (last year we stayed in a pod in Scotland), but as soon as I have a proper job we'll have more money than we know what to do with (and probably no time to spend it)!
Post edited at 20:33
In reply to philipivan:
The desire and money more like. You said 15 years ago you were on 18k! Well I am not on much more than that now!!!
The desire and money more like. You said 15 years ago you were on 18k! Well I am not on much more than that now!!!
In reply to Carolyn:
I've made a note!
> PS I offer free, comfortable accommodation in the Lake District for those who like to babysit
I've made a note!
In reply to Tall Clare:
I quite agree, especially when you think that things you saw have disappeared for ever and you didn't even take a photo.
> It's kind of sod's law - not something one would necessarily think of at the time, but all the 'stuff around the climbing' sounds in some ways more interesting than the climbing itself, to the outsider; after all, the mountains are likely to have changed less than the places you went through to get to them.
I quite agree, especially when you think that things you saw have disappeared for ever and you didn't even take a photo.
In reply to mc2006:
meh. It isn't just about how much you earn - it's also about your costs. I'm on about the same as you and we manage to go to all sorts of places. We just look to see where is cheap and arrange things ourselves. You can get a flight to somewhere like sharm el sheik for about £100, then buses out there are about a pound for a journey, and staying at the desert fox camp is about £5 per night including breakfast and evening meal - more mountains than you can shake a stick at and you have them all to yourself!
Yeah - it isn't the Himalaya, but we've been to Croatia, France, Spain, Italy all sorts of places with cheap flights and self catered. We usually manage a couple of trips a year and a week in the uk as well.
What is stopping you? I usually think of a holiday as costing about £300 for a week, but I would spend £50 of that in the uk on food anyway...
> The desire and money more like. You said 15 years ago you were on 18k! Well I am not on much more than that now!!!
meh. It isn't just about how much you earn - it's also about your costs. I'm on about the same as you and we manage to go to all sorts of places. We just look to see where is cheap and arrange things ourselves. You can get a flight to somewhere like sharm el sheik for about £100, then buses out there are about a pound for a journey, and staying at the desert fox camp is about £5 per night including breakfast and evening meal - more mountains than you can shake a stick at and you have them all to yourself!
Yeah - it isn't the Himalaya, but we've been to Croatia, France, Spain, Italy all sorts of places with cheap flights and self catered. We usually manage a couple of trips a year and a week in the uk as well.
What is stopping you? I usually think of a holiday as costing about £300 for a week, but I would spend £50 of that in the uk on food anyway...
In reply to ceri:
We do save alot, infact we save around 20% of our income, but thats to save for a lot of different things. We probs are on average salaries.
We can and will save, I have just assumed that trips will be too expensive for us but reading the advice from some helpful people on here I have realised that they are with in our reach.
We do save alot, infact we save around 20% of our income, but thats to save for a lot of different things. We probs are on average salaries.
We can and will save, I have just assumed that trips will be too expensive for us but reading the advice from some helpful people on here I have realised that they are with in our reach.
In reply to tlm:
I know, it can be done, I have looked at these adventure company trips and now realise that it can be done a lot cheaper by sorting it ourself.
Thanks for the info but I cant see a week holiday abroad anywhere for 300!
I know, it can be done, I have looked at these adventure company trips and now realise that it can be done a lot cheaper by sorting it ourself.
Thanks for the info but I cant see a week holiday abroad anywhere for 300!
In reply to mc2006: Don't save it all for a rainy day, spend some on fun things!
In reply to mc2006:
I think you've had a lot of good answers here.
Employing another skilled person is never going to be cheap, so you need to find the adventures that you are happy doing yourselves.
If you are happy with your general mountain skills and navigation, and you want to go to the Alps, then try the Dolomites (or maybe Austria?) for mostly glacier free peaks. If you are happy with climbing exposure, then think about the via ferrata. If you don't want to do it completely by yourselves then look at Colletts. I've not used them but I think they'd help with the organising, though I don't think they do guided VFs now.
If you think your mountain skills need improving, then a course at PYB will probably be a lot cheaper than a guide when you get there.
And don't underestimate the UK, going somewhere completely new in the UK, maybe Skye or Ullapool or ?? could also be the adventure you want.
I think you've had a lot of good answers here.
Employing another skilled person is never going to be cheap, so you need to find the adventures that you are happy doing yourselves.
If you are happy with your general mountain skills and navigation, and you want to go to the Alps, then try the Dolomites (or maybe Austria?) for mostly glacier free peaks. If you are happy with climbing exposure, then think about the via ferrata. If you don't want to do it completely by yourselves then look at Colletts. I've not used them but I think they'd help with the organising, though I don't think they do guided VFs now.
If you think your mountain skills need improving, then a course at PYB will probably be a lot cheaper than a guide when you get there.
And don't underestimate the UK, going somewhere completely new in the UK, maybe Skye or Ullapool or ?? could also be the adventure you want.
In reply to stevieb:
Iv had some excellent answers on here, I just want to say thanks to everyone for that.
Well we have decided we are going to go to the Pyrenees for a few days, cheap and somewhere I will be confident by ourselves.
Thanks for the tips Stevieb
Iv had some excellent answers on here, I just want to say thanks to everyone for that.
Well we have decided we are going to go to the Pyrenees for a few days, cheap and somewhere I will be confident by ourselves.
Thanks for the tips Stevieb
In reply to philipivan:
I will most certainly have a read through that - thanks very much
Martin
> Not sure if you noticed but Bruce's profile contains a link to his website which has some lovely writing about his expeditions: http://www.windmillweb.info/climbing/climbing_home_page.htm
I will most certainly have a read through that - thanks very much
Martin
In reply to mc2006:
You have to take gambles in life. Work for yourself?
I financed my last trip after only working for 6 months and saving every penny. I am fortunate though, I don't have a mortgage.
You have to take gambles in life. Work for yourself?
I financed my last trip after only working for 6 months and saving every penny. I am fortunate though, I don't have a mortgage.
In reply to mc2006:
HOOORAHHHHH!!! have fun, won't you?
> Well we have decided we are going to go to the Pyrenees for a few days, cheap and somewhere I will be confident by ourselves.
HOOORAHHHHH!!! have fun, won't you?
In reply to Blizzard:
Im not self employed no, I am a lecturer and assessor at a college. So i cant exactly just pack up and leave, I just have the summer hols off where I could get away for a while.
Tlm: yes I will enjoy.
Mike
Im not self employed no, I am a lecturer and assessor at a college. So i cant exactly just pack up and leave, I just have the summer hols off where I could get away for a while.
Tlm: yes I will enjoy.
Mike
In reply to maisie:
I m interested to hear more about your trip with the kids . We ve both travelled quite a bit in India / Nepal but not yet with the kids. I'll start a thread later.
I m interested to hear more about your trip with the kids . We ve both travelled quite a bit in India / Nepal but not yet with the kids. I'll start a thread later.
In reply to mc2006:
The thing is - you can just pack it all in and leave. You're choosing not too, a bit like me.
I did 16 nights in Font, Ariege, Suirana and Montserrat last Sept, kipping in a mate's Transit van, We spent £515 each for the whole trip. That was for everything, adding me to his insurance, the ferry, toll fees, fuel. You only need to pay for these once and after that, every other week is just food and water. So I'm off for 6 weeks this summer on my own - Swizzy may be expensive and I'll have a small budget but I'll get by.
It's all about priorities. I'm self employed, so taking eight weeks in total off this summer means no income at all. Oh to have holiday pay! I dare say I'll loose some customers too but I don't want to look back and have to say that I was too scared to go for it.
The thing is - you can just pack it all in and leave. You're choosing not too, a bit like me.
I did 16 nights in Font, Ariege, Suirana and Montserrat last Sept, kipping in a mate's Transit van, We spent £515 each for the whole trip. That was for everything, adding me to his insurance, the ferry, toll fees, fuel. You only need to pay for these once and after that, every other week is just food and water. So I'm off for 6 weeks this summer on my own - Swizzy may be expensive and I'll have a small budget but I'll get by.
It's all about priorities. I'm self employed, so taking eight weeks in total off this summer means no income at all. Oh to have holiday pay! I dare say I'll loose some customers too but I don't want to look back and have to say that I was too scared to go for it.
In reply to maisie:
A hundred quid to a porter benevolent fund? It seems like the right thing to do, but that would hire you a porter for ten days or even a couple of weeks, and there wouldn't be any of the jiggery-pokery that goes on with some of those things.
But you're right it doesn't have to be so expensive. We get suckered into buying crap we don't need, when what we need is to live.
A hundred quid to a porter benevolent fund? It seems like the right thing to do, but that would hire you a porter for ten days or even a couple of weeks, and there wouldn't be any of the jiggery-pokery that goes on with some of those things.
But you're right it doesn't have to be so expensive. We get suckered into buying crap we don't need, when what we need is to live.
In reply to Ed Douglas:
The thing is, though, we've only so far been on tea house treks - and I'm d*mned if I'm going to pay someone else to carry my bags for me. Or the kids' stuff for that matter (on the sanctuary trek last year, I carried the shared gear, all my stuff and both of the kids' sacks - and was still carrying half the weight that the teenage porters were. At half the speed). I'm just not ready to make that adjustment yet. But I'm acutely aware that the local economy depends on all aspects of trekking, so a donation seems the least I could do.
Our next Nepal visit will be a bit more off the beaten path, so it's likely we will be needing some physical help. But I'm certain that nobody in the party will be carrying more than me - I just couldn't look myself in the eye, so to speak.
Martin
The thing is, though, we've only so far been on tea house treks - and I'm d*mned if I'm going to pay someone else to carry my bags for me. Or the kids' stuff for that matter (on the sanctuary trek last year, I carried the shared gear, all my stuff and both of the kids' sacks - and was still carrying half the weight that the teenage porters were. At half the speed). I'm just not ready to make that adjustment yet. But I'm acutely aware that the local economy depends on all aspects of trekking, so a donation seems the least I could do.
Our next Nepal visit will be a bit more off the beaten path, so it's likely we will be needing some physical help. But I'm certain that nobody in the party will be carrying more than me - I just couldn't look myself in the eye, so to speak.
Martin
In reply to mc2006:
Right approach to the subject does the changes.
Treat your trips not as a way to enjoy yourself a bit
but as an investment into your health and working abilities,
and things at once turn different.
Mind that a week at the hight of 15000 feet
changes your blood vessel characteristics profoundly
and the fact that when you get back to work
you look upon many things quite differently
and that gives you a priority.
Your approach to the subject changes,
you are more capable of influencing people for you think faster.
You find yourself more result oriented
just at the moment you decided to start planning your trip.
You meet people you would never meet in case you did not plan your trip and share ideas.
A trip itself may not appear very productive
but its preparation generally is.
Best wishes and good luck.
Right approach to the subject does the changes.
Treat your trips not as a way to enjoy yourself a bit
but as an investment into your health and working abilities,
and things at once turn different.
Mind that a week at the hight of 15000 feet
changes your blood vessel characteristics profoundly
and the fact that when you get back to work
you look upon many things quite differently
and that gives you a priority.
Your approach to the subject changes,
you are more capable of influencing people for you think faster.
You find yourself more result oriented
just at the moment you decided to start planning your trip.
You meet people you would never meet in case you did not plan your trip and share ideas.
A trip itself may not appear very productive
but its preparation generally is.
Best wishes and good luck.
In reply to panz:
Thank you for your words of wisdom, very interesting points which I agree with.
Mike
Thank you for your words of wisdom, very interesting points which I agree with.
Mike
In reply to mc2006:
Not sure if it's come up yet but there's plenty of grants available to pay for interesting mountain expeditions: BMC, Alpine club, MEF etc... They can make a massive difference.
see here for a list of people who'll give you cash for your next holiday: https://www.thebmc.co.uk/list-of-general-mountaineering-grants?s=4
hth,
Will
Not sure if it's come up yet but there's plenty of grants available to pay for interesting mountain expeditions: BMC, Alpine club, MEF etc... They can make a massive difference.
see here for a list of people who'll give you cash for your next holiday: https://www.thebmc.co.uk/list-of-general-mountaineering-grants?s=4
hth,
Will
In reply to mc2006:
Depends on how and where you want to go.
I once had the choice of Scotland for £240 or Spain for £60, no contest.
Incidently that £60 included flight, shared car hire and accomodation.
If you shop around you can find good deals
Depends on how and where you want to go.
I once had the choice of Scotland for £240 or Spain for £60, no contest.
Incidently that £60 included flight, shared car hire and accomodation.
If you shop around you can find good deals
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