UKC

Hello

I was told that I would get some help if I posted my problem here but I also think it is worth speaking out if I am not in a unique situation.

I ordered a Goretex Alpha jacket from Arc'teryx but decided to return it straight away, using their website system for (free) tracked returns. When I tried to fill out the form and print a shipping label, I was not able to and guessed that it might be related to the fact that I was in Portree and the nearest drop off point for their courier, DPD, was in Inverness, a six hour round trip. After many back and forth emails with the company to various parts of Europe, I was able to get them to agree to my returning the order (at my expense) using Royal Mail tracked, to the same address as the DPD shipping label or to any alternative address that suited them. The DPD address is Amer Sports in Irvine and eventually they approved it and later instructed that same address in a separate email. The parcel was sent and I then emailed the tracking link to Arc'teryx the same day, which they acknowledged receiving by email. The package was delivered within a few days and showed a receipt 'signature' and GPS location for the corner of their building (tracking number KL632644811GB). I then waited a week before asking about my return which wasn't showing in my customer account, again sending them the Royal Mail link for the tracked delivery. This was their answer half an hour later:

"We have double checked with the wearhouse and they have NOT received a parcel from Royal Mail. You will need to open a claim with the carrier, as this return was not send in with our pre-paid label.

We do not use Royal Mail as a carrier for Arc'teryx and therefore we are not able to assist you with the claim. The only thing we can confirm is that we have not received the parcel. I am sorry for the inconvenience."

Now my problem is this: I mistakenly only used "1st Class Signed For", not really expecting a package to go missing in the grey area between Royal Mail postie and the Arc'teryx warehouse, and not thinking the insurance was so low in any case. As this method has very little compensation cover (the jacket was £350 from the Outlet), I am left now with limited options or perhaps only one. Should I try and claim from Paypal, who will probably need further proof that the parcel was definitely delivered to Arc'teryx themselves? Should I report the jacket stolen? Is it best to proceed with Royal Mail for the 20-50 pounds compensation? Or should I try and pressure Arc'teryx to take responsibility for the missing item, since it was delivered to their property at the address agreed to after my request for specific confirmation, and which they also instructed me to use along with instructions for a 'returns authorisation number' to be written on the outside of the parcel. I don't understand how they can say that they have not received it when it will have been delivered, under their CCTV cameras, with all of the other post that goes to the same building? Does anyone have any advice or suggestions?

Any help appreciated

Helen

In reply to Helen Skye:

This is probably not what you want to hear but its likely the jacket never made it back to Arcteryx. My wife used to work in customer service for an online shop and they had loads of parcels go missing, even signed for. Bad (or time pressured) delivery drivers signing for parcels themselves before actually dropping them off then the parcels going missing. The claims mechanism for lots of these companies were also so bad that they didn't even claim the compensation and just wrote it off as a loss.

I'd chase arcteryx to make 100% sure they don't have it, then it's probably a claim from the delivery company, which unfortunately you are underinsured for.

In reply to Helen Skye:

When I had an issue with Royal Mail loosing a parcel best I got was sick stamps. First class mind. In your case they will say they delivered it and they have a signature so I think you'll have little luck claiming from them.

PayPal are very good with claims but I expect your situation is a bit beyond what they protect against but worth checking.

I would want advice first but my gut would tell me to start a small claims procedure against arcteryx as you have proof it was delivered and they have lot it. The aim would be to get them to have a proper look for it. But I'd want to know what liability I would be open to before going down this route.

In reply to Helen Skye:

I wouldn't have thought you'd get a penny from royal mail as according to them they delivered it. I'd try and go through PayPal as if you have proof of delivery they will probably side with you. 

In reply to Alex Riley:

I'm defence of RM I recently got a parcel misdelivered to my neighbour (silly me clicked the wrong house number on a dropdown menu). Neighbour annoyingly signed and got the delivery photo taken, before refusing to accept delivery. Anyway it took a while but the parcel eventually made it back to sender, who arranged redelivery to my correct address.

I would email the person you originally spoke to (emailed) and who approved you returning at your own expense, with a copy of their email and proof of delivery, also copy in everyone else you have corresponded with during the whole process. Sounds very much like their returns department only deals with DPD, so other parcels may just get overlooked/ignored unless you kick up a fuss.

In reply to Helen Skye:

I've found paypal really really good for this kind of problem. Get intouch with them directly and I'm confident they'll be able to sort it.

In reply to Helen Skye:

Slightly off topic, but i wouldn't touch arcteryx now. They've been bought out by a Chinese company and they are not what they used to be. A bit like 5.10 getting bought by adidas and then going down the tubes. The prices are still high but the quality and their customer care has plummeted.

I hope you get this resolved. You may have to be incredibly persistent for as long as it takes.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Arcteryx still seems to be owned by Amer, a Finnish company, as it has been for well over a decade I believe. Amer is in turn owned by a massive Chinese sports conglomerate, but do you really think it is the parent company of the parent company that has really led to changes with Arcteryx rather than just standard company gets much bigger and moves into mass market problems?

In reply to TobyA:

Indeed. 
 

Amer owns Arc’Teryx, Salomon, Mavic, and so own. But it is a holding company, so doesn’t do much per the actual brands it owns (other than corporate support, network), as long as they are making profit. And the Chinese company owns the shares of Amer… but they are there pretty much for the dividends…

the problems that ’Ryx has been having is mostly about rapid growth related. And to extent profit management (cheaper stuff done in China and rest of far east, Alpha stuff still mostly done in CAN AFAIK).

510 problems were a tad different, as there the owned actually meddled with the business…

that being said, 510 has always had quality issues. Even when they were a niche brand (so late 90s).

In reply to Helen Skye:

Is this their actual reply, it seems unprofessional with the spelling error and SHOUT.

As a new account, it would be helpful if you returned to the thread to prove you are not a Troll or a Bot.

In reply to Godwin:

Internet was down last night and only came on this morning, apparently. DM me if you need personal confirmation that I can give you. She will copy and paste more of the emails if you need to see proof, otherwise she will reply tonight. Cheers, Jon.

Here's the number they told her to write on the parcel, which can be confirmed by Arc'teryx:

RMA number R1-0030138231

In reply to J Skye:

This sounds like a bit of a disaster for you!  I hope it works out well, but it's hard to see how.

How can Royal Mail claim to have delivered it?  I think, because I now know their Signed For system is not credible.

Last week I was waiting for a Signed For parcel, that ended up being delivered on a Saturday when I was out in the hills.  Fortunately when I arrived home the next day, the parcel was sitting right outside my door.

But more interestingly, the tracking showed the Delivery as Signed For by some random squiggle -- like yours.  In my case I guess the delivery person signed it off themselves.

Maybe yours did too.  And pocketed the parcel?  Or was it left outside the building and later stolen/lost.

Best of luck.

In reply to Helen Skye:

Hound Arcteryx until they sort it out, if royal mail have said it's delivered it's up to Arc to prove it hasn't. 

It sounds like it just needs to be escalated to someone who can actually track it down , there's a good chance CS won't actually have anything to do with the parcels upon return.

In reply to BruceM:

I can't see a RM worker risking their job for a twenty quid package? They only know that it is something that would be sent valued at that much, so why would they risk a good job for what might be a just a returned t-shirt? Multiple mistakes were made, unfortunately.

We have parcels left at the end of the road and sometimes they are there overnight. One forgets to be street-smart after a while, I guess, living out here. Cheers.

In reply to TobyA:

I don't know. The quality & customer support has crashed since that takeover so I'd still avoid them like the proverbial, as I would with 5.10. There are better brands.

In reply to Helen Skye:

Another possible avenue? Did you pay by credit card? Section 75 may cover this.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Dunno about their customer service but they still make the best harnesses on the market IMO.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Since which takeover - being bought by the Finns? Or the Finns being bought by the Chinese?

5.10/Adidas seems more complex as well. I haven't heard many people moan about the quality of newer 5.10 shoes, more just that they don't like the changed designs - so they don't fit and works as well as the previous range. But then modern 5.10 shoes hardly seem to be holding back Garnbret, Coxsey or Bosi so I doubt they are lousy if they fit your feet.  Unparalleled is to my understanding, the factory that used to make 5.10. It seems that some people are complaining about inconsistency in fit and shape and excessive stretch with that brand, just like back in the old days of 5.10, pre the Germans. I heard from the Adidas side why they stopped working with the old factory, although that's only one side of the story. I'm sure the folk who became Unparalleled have a different perspective on it.  

In reply to Helen Skye:

Have you tried getting in touch with the premises in Irvine?

Here's a screen shot

In reply to TobyA:

Shauna is Mad Rock now. If you look at 5.10's insta, you'd think is was only a bike brand.

In reply to galpinos:

Well… in the northern hemisphere it is pretty much biking season… way too warm to climb anything hard and thus insta-worthy… but trails are quite mint right now.

and Yeah, 510 biking shoes are pretty sweet… both pre and post Adidas takeover.

In reply to Godwin:

Yes I am a real person. I was a bit shocked by that reply too - the use of shouty caps made me feel like they were implying either it was my fault or that I was being dishonest. Very poor customer service - first that they expected me to drive a 6 hour round trip in tourist traffic on bad roads to return a parcel to their courier. And then, when they agreed I could use Royal Mail and I followed their instructions to the letter and have proof that it was delivered to their warehouse (or wearhouse?), they appear to absolve themselves of any responsibility. I'm still shocked.

Helen

In reply to Helen Skye:

Thanks so much for all the helpful advice. 

I have started a Paypal dispute, which will then need to become a claim if Arc'teryx do not respond before the second week of June. Then I will probably follow the advice above and collect the relevant emails, including this excerpt below, into a single complaint letter:

quote: "You can also send your parcel to us at your own expense, for this we recommend the following:

- Use a carrier that provides a tracking number in case there are logistical problems (from our side we cannot initiate a claim, so the guest has to follow up on any logistical problems)

- Write the RMA number R1-0030138231 on the top of the parcel and include our RMA label INSIDE the box so that the warehouse can scan the parcel, which will trigger the refund.

- Use the same address provided on our RMA:

AMER SPORTS UK SERVICES LTD 

CROMPTON WAY 

IRVINE

UNITED KINGDOM 

KA11 4HU " end quote.

If the above fails, I will probably submit a 'Simple Procedure' (small claims). I might follow the suggestion above and get the parent company to initiate a triple check with "the wearhouse".

I guess I just got complacent with companies that are actual shops with people who deal with your orders, 

I'll try to post an update. 

Thanks again

Helen

In reply to Helen Skye:

The fact that you live in an area of the country with bad roads and no local courier depot is hardly bad customer service on their part. The vast majority of the country would see a free returns service as excellent customer service.

Yes that is bad and I fully sympathise with your frustrations.

In reply to Helen Skye:

Fairplay.

I suppose the crux of the issue is Arcteryx cannot locate the parcel and are trying to say it was not delivered.

So how good is your proof of delivery, what would a reasonable person think?
 

How good do you think your proof of delivery is out of 10?

In reply to Jenny C:

'Poor' customer service would be ignoring the customer who says that they cannot print out a shipping form because the computer will not recognise the location, as it is too far away from any drop-off points and the company simply changing the location to Inverness and sending a link solely to that print-out, which meant the customer had to explain that that print-out was not useful, as it would still be a six-hour round trip, and which then caused a few more emails and the company sending a link to DPD Belgium, which would not recognise any postcodes, before the company eventually accepted or understood that the customer simply wanted to use a local tracked carrier at their own expense, and so on and so forth.

'Good' customer service might be: Alpinetrek in Germany having an easy Royal Mail shipping form link as an option for (inter)national returns. Norrona warehouse in Denmark refunding the item to Paypal and also refunding the estimated return international postage to Denmark before the item has even left the UK. Patagonia shipping from the EU but allowing returns to an office in the UK without problem, after the Manchester-based manager phoning personally to apologise for the problem, etc.

Let me know if you need proof of any of those claims, Jenny.

In reply to Jenny C:

Oh can you show me where it says free returns except from certain postcodes, I can't find it on the website.

Helen

In reply to Helen Skye:

You clearly could return it, it was just somewhat impractical. It’s pretty clear why they don’t offer RM as a default service, based on this lack-of-delivery. Yes this is unfortunate, but it’s not really Arc’teryx’s fault, who were then happy to let you use a courier of your choice rather than the one they have a contract with. 
 

The issue you actually have is with RM. Firstly, for the non-delivery, and secondly, becasue you didn’t get a suitably insured service (and by the sounds of it were not advised to get one). I’m not sure what you expect Arc’teryx to do about this, which is something you arranged independently of them. Yes, it’s frustrating that this has happened, but it’s disingenuous to suggest Arc’teryx are to blame. IANAL, but I suspect the most you’ll get from small claims is the value to which your package was insured by RM.

In reply to ianstevens:

* alleged non-delivery. Royal Mail tracking shows the GPS location of where the delivery was made to be what very much looks like the building’s reception. I find it kind of hard to believe that they would go to reception to get a GPS lock and then just nick it and leave. 

In reply to ianstevens:

I'm not sure of your powers of perspicacity but let's assume it is "clear why they don't offer RM as a default service, based on this lack-of-delivery". It would be nice to be warned in advance of these post hoc reasons for them not offering the service if, as you aver, it is and was abundantly clear to them that the delivery location address (matching the GPS coordinates?) to be used by Royal Mail is not a secure one when used by Royal Mail. Perhaps this intuition that you have is also the reason why it was necessary to ask in writing for agreement in writing before sending to the DPD wearhouse [sic] drop-off point?

In reply to Helen Skye:

If she doesn't get the money back I will be selling my Arc'teryx stuff here (hopefully, never sold anything online before) until I make the £364 to give back to Helen. I am the idiot who didn't get postal insurance (I just sent it with another return to Trekitt that I was doing at the same time, and which was unremarkably good service from them, as usual) and I am also the one who suggested she buy the 'Hadron' jacket in the first place.

If she doesn't get her money back I have told her to put a post in the "Lost and Found" sub, as well, in case anyone sees a person wearing a blue Alpha women's coat in Irvine. Cheers, Jon.

In reply to Helen Skye:

An alternative approach. 

Are you on Linkedin?

Message CEO, Stuart Haselden on the platform and complain, wait and see what happens. 

You might be surprised. 

Good start to any message;

'As a long time satisfied user of your companies products  I was disappointed at the following issues........'

In reply to Helen Skye:I'd get on the phone PayPal and explain you've successfully returned an item to arcteryx and they're refusing to refund you.Whether or not they can find it ,as far as the sender and royal mail is concerned the parcel has been returned and signed for, good luck.ps I've had nightmares with returns in the past but always came good,don't give in.

Sorry to hear this Helen, I hope you can get compensated.

All - Not to hijack the thread, but has Arcteryx quality really plummeted?  I still very much rate them, and have found their gear to be still of a very high standard.

In reply to waterfall:

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'quality'. If designing less and less for mountain pursuits and more and more for street use with heavy fashion bias, then that aspect of functional design is no longer represented as fully in their products as it was in the beginning. I have used Arc'teryx for 25 years and bought one of the first items they ever sold in the UK, when it was mostly all made in Canada. 'Quality' as in QC, may still be the same, so it might depend on how much you purchase; lately it appears as if the QC has deteriorated, IMO. 'Quality' of innovation, or the spirit of product design and exploration of cutting edge concepts in application, has declined, IMO. Finally, the 'quality' of the construction in terms of glued seams where sewing and taping would be better, has always been the same: form over function.

Back on topic: I have done some searching and reading as to whether or not Royal Mail would compensate a parcel if they have evidence from their post-person that it was delivered and the answer seems to be 'no'. I would contact them for a written answer but their contact form for such questions is limited to about 15 words, for some reason. The best thing a person could do in Helen's situation would be to use a credit card and a service that took a photo as well as a GPS lock, should the recipient testify that they have not received the item and a claim then need to be made with the funding source, as a first option.

In reply to Helen Skye:

I must admit I kinda didn't believe you when you said DPD don't do a drop-off or pick-up from Portree so I checked - you are correct!

Did DPD deliver the jacket to you in the first place? Weird that they can't organise returns.

Lesson is - don't buy from anyone online whose selected couriers can't offer a return service from your location. We went through a phase of not buying from anyone who used DHL for this reason - and we're in Lancashire!

Have you tried talking to a human?

LinkedIn message to CEO good idea. Maybe mention that you live and operate at the edge of the UK. If that doesn't work hit Insta, etc. - large companies hate this kind of exposure. They'll have a team managing the CEO's emails and socials.

In reply to Godwin:

Not sure why this is still rumbling on.

If you believe your proof of delivery is good, send a missive to Arcteryx stating they refund within X days or you will small claims  them.

If you do not believe your proof of delivery is good, contact the royal mail.

You are making this far more complex than it actually is.

In reply to Helen Skye:

Thanks to everyone who provided helpful advice. Much appreciated.

After I escalated it and provided a detailed account of the sequence of events with a link to Royal Mail's evidence of delivery, Paypal decided in my favour and the money was returned to my account. I have no information about the process and decision apart from that. 

Best wishes

Helen

In reply to Helen Skye:

Great news.  Well done.  And thanks for the update.

I'm impressed, and maybe should think about using Paypal more rather than the standard credit card purchase methods.

In reply to Helen Skye:

Great to hear!! 

Thought paypal would do the do for ya!

Excellent stuff

In reply to J Skye:

Just to clarify, Patagonia's Manchester-based manager was phoning up to apologise for the order being drastically wrong, not the alternative method of return, which was then arranged without problem. (Didn't want it to sound like The Dirty Fork sketch.)