UKC

So I face a dilemma, do I go for something the girlfriend will like and want to keep once the finance is finished or something I'll just use till it dies. The options are.

Focus ST or st diesel

BMW 118i or 218i gran coupe

Kia stinger 

Kia proceed estate

Focus estate 

This really is a bit of an odd dynamic as climbing can be heavy on kit and this means an estate would be preferable. Does anyone have any of these cars? Are they livable or should I just buy a massive estate? 

Skoda Octavia estate, obvs.

4x4 version does sound goodfor those winter trips in Scotland, reason I discounted it was because the superb its just more car for the same money. Also want to stay from belt driven cams. 

I only really suggested it because it's UKC's standard answer to "what car should I get?" - though I must admit I am actively considering one, they are good.

The Superb is bigger but not that much bigger - like the Focus (which it's in the same market segment as) it's grown significantly.

That's going to be very limiting, and is rather unnecessary - just budget a cambelt change (typically about £500 I think) into your costings when buying and have it done straight away if you have any doubt about it having been done on schedule, then with most cars that's 80-100K miles before you need to worry about it again.

I personally do share your dislike of the design principle of having a consumable which, if it fails, can destroy the engine - but they don't fail by the minutes as long as they are changed punctually.

I have recently got a 1.6 diesel Kia ceed sportswagon, pretty much the same as the proceed underneath but the latter more expensive due to the bling extras and rakish hatch line (= less full packing space). Excellent kia warranty, as long as it's been serviced within terms. My usual garage man has one that's got to 100k with only tires/brake consumables.

Did 150k (to173k total) in a diesel '08 Focus mk2, only had tires brake disks/pads, drop links, 2 front struts and all 4 calipers in that time.

Prefer the kia...... but it is 10years more advanced.....

Mark

I'd possibly steer clear of the Kia if you intend to run it into the ground. The older Kia's were absolutely bomb proof as they tried to get market penetration. They've now got the way of most manufacturers with a good reputation and started reducing costs. A lot of reports of 3,4,5 & 6 gear synchro rings failing.

https://www.eco-torque.co.uk/post/kia-hyundai-6-speed-manual-gearbox-issue-...
 

Sounds like they've been uprated, but the website isn't clear.

My ceed estate (just out of warranty) has had 4th gear syncho go at just 70k miles. As it's had a few dings and scrapes I just changed the gear oil and I'm now reliving the good old days and double-declutching when necessary.

It's not so bad if the engines aren't interference or wet belt but higher mpgs are achieved by interference engines so most are nowadays that's what is putting me off. 

Watch out for anything VAG post-2020. The internet seems to think they're all cursed with incurable electronics failures.

I was thinking of starting a thread about it because it implies there is or soon will be a generation of octavias to be avoided, which would be a catastrophe for UKCers.

I did think of that however I prefer the 1.6 dct petrol proceed they don't do that engine in the ceed estate as far as I'm aware. 

Thankyou that's very interesting, how much is a replacement or repair if you know?

This thread seems to suggest that the concept of 'enshittification' applies to cars these days, too...

Have VAG been taken over by PSA?

Dunno. Most independent garages wont touch gearboxes, and send them off to a specialist, so it's maybe 3 or 4 hours labour at the garage to remove and refit the gearbox, courier to and from the specialist, then the cost of stripping, repair and rebuilding the box.

Parts are less than a couple of hundred quid to replace all four syncromesh rings if you fancy some DIY. Given the age and condition of the car I went down the cheapskate 'hopefully drain out the broken bits and stick some quality oil in and see what happens' route.
 

From what I've read it sounds a bit more like if Lucas made touchscreens

Just replaced the EGR valve on Mrs Ridge's 20 plate SEAT. Local mechanic says, along with fuel injectors, EGR valves keep him busy.

Honda Accord diesel or CRV diesel. Get an older 2.2 engine, chain driven cams and expect 250 - 300k without problems. CRV no ball of fire, get about 43mpg, but very big. Accord was quick, 55mpg but quite low slung.

Buy a Berlingo. Loads of space, they seem to be as durable as anything else and you won't care about it picking up a few war wounds from flinging bikes/skis etc in the back. From your list I'd pick the BMW (one of the RWD ones, not the new FWD one) but I am very biased and if it was nearly new I'd be fretting over cosmetic damage. Or an X1, a lot more practical than a 1 series.

FWIW, I have an Octavia, it is a good car but it's not the best car in the world that the forums would have you believe, nor are they immune to expensive/terminal failures.

Can I please just jump on this thread to ask about timing belt changes, based on what you've said, because we just got a 10 year old VW Sharan diesel auto that only has partial service history.

It was serviced every year for it's first 5 years of life then the MOT's are all good for the whole life of the car, but there is no service history at all for the last 5 years, which I am kind of hoping means it's just been lost rather than it was never serviced for 5 years and just happened to pass all it's MOTs with out any fails or advisories.

But anyway - basically I have no idea whether the timing belt has been changed. The car's done 55k miles in 10 years, looks and drives really nice, clean and new looking. One of my mates and the car dealer himself said what you said, that if it fails it "can destroy the engine", but when I read about them online on the AA websites etc. it said you would notice a loss of power and excess noise etc. when it needed replacing. But my mate and the dealer made out you could be driving along happy then one day it just goes and your engine is totalled.

So basically now feel like I'm driving a ticking bomb (but also it might have had the belt changed already but the service history is lost....)

Interested in this cheers as I’m looking for a new car and the CRV stands out to me! Good reviews and as a Honda bike rider it all stacks up!

That was true of old style non-interference engines.  My Dad had one go when we were on holiday in France once, and that was the symptom - loss of power then the engine stopped.  Sometimes you'll notice first but mostly not, I don't think he had much notice of it!  Indeed if I recall rightly (but it was 30 years ago) we were sat at the lights then when he tried to set off it just stalled and wouldn't restart.

...is largely true of modern interference engines (where the pistons and valves can clash).

You basically are...would be best to get it changed if it's past the number of miles when it's required and you're not sure it has been done.  Mr Average probably doesn't bother, he just takes it to Kwik Fit once a year and doesn't pay attention to the extra bits.

As far as I am aware, having been warned by a friend who is a mechanic, belts can fail without warning which would effectively write off your car. I used to always buy older (6-10 years) cars and would almost always get the belt (if it had one) and water pump changed first thing, for peace of mind. I had a VW van done a couple of years ago, I can't remember the cost but it wasn't crippling and will do you for another 30-50k miles.

My dad just got rid of his Kia Sportage for this reason. Local garage directed him to a gearbox specialist who said he's seeing more and more Kias with the same issue 

I had a 2009 Ceed sports wagon diesel for 8 years and over 100k. Gave me virtually no hassles.

I had a Focus estate for several years and loved it. The way they did the rear suspension means the boot space is HUGE.

Got 3 people, 3 mountain bikes and camping gear for a weekend INSIDE it and the roof bars regularly had kayaks and surfboard on top. Even used to get the tandem inside it for a weekend away.

I have a 2017 BMW 320d drive estate. Great car to drive, but...

EGR valve/cooler - EGR cooler went up in a cloud of smoke when the car had done ~20,000 miles. It had a recall for a check just before it went puff. Got repaired by BMW man in a van who carried 4 spares at all times! Then recalled twice more for a replacement EGR valve and a software change. Just got letter for another recall about EGR software.

I now get it serviced by a BMW trained specialist. He says they need oil/filter replacing every 10,000 miles, not the 20,000 BMW recommend. He showed me a box of bits from a Mini Cooper S diesel engine (same engine as 320d) where the cam chain had let go. It had had 20k oil changes then the cam chain went ping at 65k. It had gunked up piston rings, scored piston skirts and didn't look 'clean'. He says that Audi went from 10k to 20k oil change intervals as a move to lower cost of ownership for leasing companies without changing their engines or upgrading oil. BMW followed suit - again with no changes. He reckons he's seeing a steady stream of these engines needing cam chain changes at 60 to 70 k. BMW recommendation is 90k. Because the cam chain is at the back of the engine(?) they need to drop the gearbox and bell housing to replace cam chain - so a lot of labour.

Car before that was a Passat TDI - lost power when VW did the software update to fix the 'NOx' cheat.

Car before that was an Octavia TDI - turbo blew at 60k - serviced like clockwork.

Don't know what to do for my next car! Buy one within manufacturer warranty and don't keep it beyond warranty. Or buy a shed that can be scrapped if it goes pop!

I had a 2008 that I changed at 160k, no major hassles. Hyundai/Kia have basically lost their reputation for reliability in order to save probably £20 per car on production costs.

You basically are...would be best to get it changed if it's past the number of miles when it's required and you're not sure it has been done.  Mr Average probably doesn't bother, he just takes it to Kwik Fit once a year and doesn't pay attention to the extra bits.

+1

First job with a second hand car, especially one missing 5 years of history, change the cambelt (and water pump while the belts being removed). Worth the cost, considering the possible alternative.

I suggest you go for an older higher quality car.

All of the Lexus Hybrids for example are excellent, cheap to run, very reliable. They will likely give you less trouble than the newer cheap stuff. 

Plus, you have a nicer car to drive.

The Lexus 4x4's line the RX are a great choice. They are effectively a Prius with an extra electric motor on the back. All the benefits, none of the negatives.

2013 Focus Estate 1.6 diesel here. Still going strong after 110k miles. Avge 58mpg.

The gearbox packed up after 80k due to the dual-density flywheel shattering after so many stop/start cycles at traffic lights (so I was told). The gearbox was replaced by the Ford dealership who stumped up part of the cost as a gesture of goodwill.

It's a good car for lugging stuff about locally. Fewer long journeys now with a high mileage engine.

Mrs Mac's car is a Skoda 1.5tsi estate. Great car on long journeys full of gear. Very quiet and smooth. 55mpg on motorway journeys at a steady 70mph.

I’ve been in the unfortunate position TWICE of having a timing belt go whilst I’ve been driving.  It stops, suddenly and without warning.  And it will not go again until major repairs are done.

First time was in MrSs car.  Repair for that was replacing destroyed engine with a reconditioned one (expensive and time-consuming).

Following that, we were both very twitchy about cam belts, so I booked my car in to have its belt changed a couple of thousand miles shy of the recommended mileage.  Car was due to go in to garage a couple of days later, when the belt self destructed.  This time the engine was rebuilt because the damage wasn’t so bad.  Still expensive and annoying.

If you are in any doubt - change the belt.

A 300bhp V6 - hardly comparable to a Prius! Agree that a Lexus is a great choice though

A newer Prius is close to 200hp. Some of the extra power comes from the additional electric motor at the back. It's the same technology using a V6 instead of an I4.

As for the V6 (probably the I4 also), these engine runs the Atkinson cycle which effectively shortens the intake stroke by holding valves open a little longer. Loss of top end power in exchange for better fuel economy.

With hybrids, power and efficiency are a little detached as you can always add more motors to make bigger numbers with minimal impact on efficiency.

I wouldn't buy a diesel these days. They are on borrowed time and I'm sure rules will change soon nationally sooner or later.

It's certainly not at all unlikely that we will see a total ban on diesel cars (difficult to ban diesel lorries) in most urban areas at some point, though I can't decide if that will come first or just simply a zero-emissions zone.

I'd certainly not buy a non-ULEZ compliant diesel as London tends to lead the way on these things.

Cam chains go wrong too and when they do they're properly buried making access super expensive and they shed bits into the engine further increasing costs. A couple of quid's worth of broken plastic guide scrapped my E46 BMW.

Is the rather random mix of vehicles you're considering reflective of the tension between your needs and your partner's tastes? Whose car will it be? What is the main use case? What are the options if it's not suitable for the fringe cases?

With a similar set of competing needs and differing tastes in cars we went for a diesel F31 3-series estate. Efficient (by my standards), big boot (big dog), nice with gadgets (wife), back doors (kids), 4wd and modern traction (wife commuting in snow), auto (lazy), fast (yay, young again for a few seconds here and there). Roof bars and heated sport-seats would make it 9/10, if I still lived where I could use all the go it'd need bigger brakes for 10/10.

You don't mention budget.

jk

I had several of these, but my last one got written off when smashed into outside the house by a detached trailer containing a stolen ATM machine. The crooks were being chased by police though they never admitted it.

Back on message, I relaced it with a Yeti petrol 1.2. Great liitle car. Useful ground clearance, easy to see where its corners are, very easy to get in and out of (useful for geriatrics), excellent 6 speed auto. What’s not to like? Real shame they’re not made any more.

I drive with very gentle right foot and get 45 mpg on average, up to 50 on longer runs. Mainly short runs, now.

Benefit of a chain is more often than not, you get some warning, usually a rattle on start-up.

With belts, everything is fine in the world, and then, less so.

For cargo carrying versus size of car, I'd take our Peugeot 308 diesel estate over a Focus any day.  Very well optimised cargo carrying capability.

Euro7 will be in force in a year. I expect by 2030 ULEZ (which will probably be in most cities by then) will switch to only allowing Euro7 diesels to enter for free, and whatever the equivalent Euro petrol is.

The limits on Euro 6 and 7 are pretty remarkable, so good that the less-regulated things like brake and tyre dust are becoming proportionally a larger issue.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyres-produce-more-...

I'm not sure how reliable these studies are.

Give her one.

I have a Skoda Octavia estate. I thought that was the rule if you wanted to be a decent climber. I actually went up 2 leading grades after I got it. 

Can confirm, went from leading HVS at the time of purchase to E2 about 2 years later.

Jokes aside, I legit think having the car did boost my grade, by increasing the quantity of climbing trips substantially.

Basically no sign from the engine as it wears.  If it goes and it isn't an anti interference engine then it is likely totally ruined. Don't replace them based on funny noises or anything like that, replace them according to schedule.

My 2l diesel Astra, £350 for belt and pump etc from small local trusted garage (not dealership). Every 70-80 k miles.

Son's 2l diesel Golf cost more (can't remember amount but more like £500) but I think that was dealership or specialist VW garage. However he said it needs to be done every 40 k miles!

may have just had oil and filter changes by the owner + other key jobs. This is what I do, so none of my cars have service history after I own them. Doesn't mean they aren't serviced.

Engines vary but 100k / 10 years is quite normal, whichever comes first, so it's probably due. Which probably means it hasn't been done. I wouldn't do it early.

You were probably reading about a stretched timing chain. Behaviour is different. Results can be the same. I.e., new engine.

Look for a sticker on the timing belt cover, if it was done professionally there should be a sticker. I do my own belts, and kits I buy come with a sticker so I always add the date and stick it on the belt cover. No sticker, probably means it's not been done.

You can also normally remove part of the belt cover quite easily. You can then visually inspect the belt. If it's really new it will be obvious, but can be hard to find cracked teeth as you can't bend the belt back. But the belt will have numbers on it, last two numbers are normally the belt manufacture date. If they read 13, then it's an original belt given your car is around 2014.

Jesus, I would never buy a car with that interval.

I was surprised, and he certainly wasn't aware of that when he bought it.

Maybe a <100% scrupulous garage trying to increase business.

probably not in my lifetime just bought a grand picasso 1.6 hdi 2013 for £2K to replace an older (2009) nissan micra auto active that seems to be worth just as much- surprisingly high resale values (reliability?)

Sure but when the job needs so many special tools it's dealer only (or make them yourself) and the dealer isn't even that interested a cracked guide costs multiples of the car's value to fix. Might as well have smashed the valves, it's still a write off.

Jk

For a low value car what you really need is a back street garage. I would only use a dealer if the car was under warranty as they are too expensive.

I've got an 18 year old Lexus and the cambelt is due in a couple of years. I'm probably not going to bother with it. On balance I suspect the belt will last longer than the car retains it's remaining value. The car ows me nothing, if I can get 7 years out of it then happy days.

Just a quick note on hybrids. I had a suzuki swift on hire last week, yeah I know, did around 400miles in it average of 42mpg, not much better than my 24year old vw t4.

Chatting with a colleague at work and his experience of hybrids was similar the mpg is worse than a regular ice.

Re timing belts they work until they don't, had a few go on me. Pretty much terminal. Just change it if you don't know the history, regardless. 

A relative used to visit different companies while selling metal fatigue related software (he used to do lectures in different countries and became a professor), on speaking to Ford engineers, apparently they build their drivetrains to get a minimum of 200k out of them.

neither.

you get a van.

once you go van, you never go back!

I've been told that the stop start cycles are bad for engine in different ways, that it's worth disengaging the stop start cycles if possible. 

Yes you're right, I wouldn't buy a new one now either. Bought secondhand though, they are good workhorses and would probably keep ploughing on until a total ban is enforced.

We bought ours in 2013 in the midst of the diesel scandal, as we were told at the time of purchase that the engines emit nothing but flower petals and alpine air.

We still only pay £25 tax on the Ford, whereas the petrol Skoda is >7 times more.

^ This, provided they have a good reputation. I've been less than impressed with main dealer servicing.

Note. It does help if you actually re-fill the master cylinder after doing the recall work on the brakes, Mr Mitsubishi main dealer…

Oh I tried. Even considered doing it myself but it's top, bottom and front of the engine off after the ancillaries, basically an engine out job plus the custom tool list and timing procedure is absurd. Even at minimum wage for the labour it'd have scrapped the car and as a daily driver rather than a loved project, I wasn't going to do it. If I were to I'd have swapped the engine for simplicity

For every story of snapped belts there are dozens untold of neglected belts outliving the tinwork 😁

Jk

Can a trained eye gauge the wear of the belt? Was planning to replace belt on a 120000K 1.6 Hdi as a matter of urgency, but Citroen mentions 150000K/ 10yrs (whichever sooner?)

Probably not reliably especially in-situ. Assuming it's valuable to you, just get it done with the next service if it's a concern.

Jk

I used to have a 2 litre Ford Capri which I maintained by doing practically nothing. I went down to visit my brother in Hampshire and after we’d been out for the day I was just coasting into his driveway when then engine stopped. Turned out the cam belt had snapped. My brother, unlike me, can’t stop himself if there’s a mechanical problem needs fixing. He spent the rest of the weekend replacing the belt whilst I occasionally passed a spanner. Zero engine damage. 

I’ve heard no.

It’s not unknown for belts to have been checked by a garage and yet fail quickly after. Also, newly replaced belts can fail prematurely for various reasons. I was told part of the problem is you can’t really inspect a belt in situ, and a common reason for failure is a change in tension on the belt. The latter is why you shouldn’t put a used belt back on if removed for any reason. All anecdotal so take as you wish.

The only time I've done it (well, helped a mate's dad do it) the slit in half trick worked perfectly, so no timing faff required. I could believe there are frustrating unnecessary design choices that preclude that on modern cars though.

The problem is that losing power while going down the fast lane of the M1 is rather dangerous (and inconvenient).  Deciding not to replace the exhaust or something but scrap it when it starts blowing is one thing, but an unreliable car is rather another - I tend to prefer to get where I'm going without the risk of stopping randomly and being crashed into by a 120mph BMW.

Youtube might have instructions on how to change it. Lexus cars can last up to 500k if carefully looked after according to Scotty Kilmer the (nicely) eccentric youtube car mechanic. Once I pass my test after finishing my uni work, I'm possibly going for a 2000's Honda or Toyota with up to 130k and a good service history, seems if one avoids a 'whoops' engine year/model they can get 300k without issues, as far as I've absorbed at least. 

It's more just the effort involved. Bodywork is really tatty on this car so not interested in putting any money or serious effort into it unless necessary.

I suspect the belt will have several years left in it as the hybrid engines live pretty easy lives. Whatever may be the death of this car, it will likely be leaving me and going straight to the scrapper.

I advise you not to run a car that's a couple of decades old 

I don't

Of course any car can break down, but in most cases you'll get at least some warning.

Another vote for a diesel focus. I had an older estate for a while and now have a newer (2011) 1.6tdci hatch, was about a grand a couple of years ago and I've spent a couple of hundred on parts since then. £30 a year to tax, this year's insurance for me is £195 and it does 55mpg without trying. Unless you're looking for a racey model, diesel foci in the 2010-2015 age bracket are all cheap to run and maintain and drive ok. You can pick up a nice mid mileage estate for under £2k. Decent amount of space in the back of the hatch if you don't need the back seats, the estate is huge and well designed (flat floor, square loading space) plenty space for two to sleep in comfortably.

I wouldn't buy anything newer than 2015 until prices have settled down a bit, the cost of vehicles are absurd just now, to buy and maintain and catastrophic failures (or failures too costly to repair) seem to be getting more common with newer cars. A friend of mine has lost two in the last 2 years, one was £7.5k, the auto box died and the repair bill was going to be over £5k. The other was £10.5k and the engine has now gone. Went to look at both of them with him and both low mileage and well looked after.

I am biased and I like fords, I might have been lucky but the 1.6tdci is ubiquitous and seem to go on for ever as long as they're serviced regularly, I saw one on ebay with over 400k on the clock. The parts are cheap and they're mostly easy to work on. I got two genuine and unused shocks last year for £20. New wheel bearing was £30. The timing kit is £80 and a few hours to fit. Mines on 130k now and no reason it wont sail past 200k, rust will probably be what kills it eventually.

If the focus doesn't suit you, then go for an older honda, nissan or toyota and avoid anything that's nice enough that someone with a heavy foot would have owned it before you.

I really wouldn't buy a non-ULEZ diesel unless you live in a rural area and never drive into urban areas.  It's likely every city in the UK and some towns too will start having these within a few years.

If you are on certain disability benefits then for the London ULEZ at least, you can get an exemption for 4 years on a non-ULEZ car.

Technically the exemption is given to the person and they give details of the car (don't know if more than one is allowed). No idea what the exact legal position is for the car when it's not containing the exempt person (or dropping them off or picking them up) - in practice it's unlikely to be challenged as the "recognition" system is car number plate based.

Yeah... It had continuously variable timing and lift and all driven from deep inside the engine. Unnecessarily complicated just about starts to describe it. Nice idea but really!

Jk

I used to only buy Mondeos (MK2 era). All round good reliable car which were incredibly easy and cheap to maintain. Cheap to insure also.

I only stopped when their diesels moved to common rail and they were plagued with injector issues which were costly to sort and only a temporary fix.

No idea what they are like these days but your experience otherwise aligns with mine.

That's a good point if you live in a city or are regularly delivering heavy items into urban areas. Thankfully I am able bodied enough that when I need to go into the city I either take public transport or just park outside the LEZ and walk in. It's quicker than sitting in traffic and parking is free. I'm fortunate to live in a rural area with nice clean air, I can sympathise with city dwellers wanting to keep cars out.

There should be plenty of choice for Euro 6 diesels.

Ebay lists 31,591 diesel vans/pickups of which 6,205 are 2005-2015.
More than 80% of used diesels are likely to be ULEZ compliant.

I think you have to make a special effort to buy non-ULEZ petrol vehicle.
Anything post 2006 will comply and even my 2005 petrol car complies (phew).

 

Not necessarily, my old focus, an 08 1.7tdci is liable for London emissions charge at £12:50, as a private car it would still be ok (cutrently) to go into other English city CAZ's, but it is NOT  allowed into any Scottish CAZ without attracting a £60 fine (doubles each time up to £400).

One of the reasons it went, along with knocking rear suspension and a big stonechip right in driver eyeline 🤨, otherwise it was great at 173k.......

Mark

An 08 diesel?

Post 2006 petrol & post 2015 diesel likely to be ULEZ compliant.

Sorry misunderstood/misread your previous post. 

Mark

The way I write has that effect

Yes a trained eye can tell when the belt needs replacing by simply looking at the date/mileage since the last belt was fitted and comparing with the recommended service interval.

The ULEZ in London is 36 miles across so it could be a very long walk

Got to get your steps in 👣

When Oxford gets one (I'm sure it will, the ZEZ is going to expand too) it's only a few miles to the P&R.  But the bus is probably easier.  It really is a very good service, I never even consider driving all the way in.

Perhaps it was your heavy right foot. I have a Toyota CHR 1800cc hybrid that averages 73mph. On a 10 mile B road trip doing 40 to 50 mph I managed 93 mpg. I mainly do 20 mile journeys, mixed motorway and  A roads. My partner’s 15 year old Prius is doing 58mpg, which will increase in summer.

Maybe, but I doubt it. Most of the roads I drove on were covered with average speed cameras. 

Mild hybrids will only really bring much benefit in urban driving where regenerative braking can recover a fair bit of energy from stop-starting (Milton Keynes is probably the best case for them in the country, with more or less all urban driving being "floor it to 60/70 then hard on the brakes for the next roundabout").  On the motorway they are probably marginally worse than pure ICE because of increased friction and weight.

it's remarkable how the depreciation of cars varies- eg citroen vs nissan.

thought my 2008 Micra activ auto (80K) would be worth £500 or so, but seems hard to find anything similar for less than £2500 (has a few dents tho;()