I'm only an hour in but I have to say, what an awesome effort to put such a huge download of info together and then giving it away for free. I guess it'll end with "and here's my new book" which no doubt will be to the same high standard as his other texts.
On a personal level, everything he's said so far, mirrors my own struggles with fuelling/nutrition strategy.
I'm not sure I'd be able to hack a keto diet but I suppose I should try and see if it does indeed solve many of the problems.
> I'm only an hour in but I have to say, what an awesome effort to put such a huge download of info together and then giving it away for free. I guess it'll end with "and here's my new book" which no doubt will be to the same high standard as his other texts.
Sounds like this means your thread is an advert for his book then :P
Just my way of saying thanks, Dave.
> Even though the ketogenic diet is significantly superior in the induction of weight loss in otherwise healthy patients with obesity and the induced weight loss is rapid, intense, and sustained until at least 2 years, the understanding of the clinical impacts, safety, tolerability, efficacy, duration of treatment, and prognosis after discontinuation of the diet is challenging and requires further studies to understand the disease-specific mechanisms.
Not sure if this is covered in the video as I can't be bothered to sit through 4 hours of it, but it seems to be a good idea on paper in the short term but the long term effects are unknown
You've got to put the groundwork in if you want them to drink the kool-aid.
> I'm not sure I'd be able to hack a keto diet
Then try the alternatives - Cyclical Ketogenic Diet and Targeted Ketogenic Diet.
You don't have to eliminate CHO on a Ketogenic diet and max-output generally demands CHO.
> On a personal level, everything he's said so far, mirrors my own struggles with fuelling/nutrition strategy.
Same. I watched it all already. I've never been too concerned whether my diet was classed as keto or not (rightly or wrongly) but being willing to educate yourself and experiment with diet has been really worthwhile.
Dave is great but he needs to get out more 😂.
i find how he bangs on about eating more daily meat than a lion very boring. almost preaching that vegetarians are wrong in their choice and are disadvantaged. i wont be watching it.
I'm 20 minutes in and this is really good stuff from Dave. I love his approach to the topic and general demeanor in the film. He's clearly put a lot of thought in to it.
Can't wait to watch the rest of it.
It raises a wry smile as i reflect on the UKC Keto Diet War circa 2008. IYKYK.
You mean the paleo diet wars. Now, as then, the popularity of this diet has far more to do with Rousseau's Nobel Savage than physiology.
The video has timestamps which are well labelled so you could watch the 10 mins or so labelled "downsides of the keto diet" and see if it answers your question
> You mean the paleo diet wars. Now, as then, the popularity of this diet has far more to do with Rousseau's Nobel Savage than physiology.
Keto was originally framed as paleo but Rousseauism was refuted, or at least the charge of paleo re-enactment was explicitly refuted. Great times! 😆
I'm 3hrs in now. While i'm still impressed by the level of effort that's gone into it, most of it is 10,000ft over my head. I think I'll need to wait for "Keto for Dummies" to be pulished.
>"i find how he bangs on about eating more daily meat than a lion very boring. almost preaching that vegetarians are wrong in their choice and are disadvantaged. i wont be watching it."
I've not seen that so far. To paraphrase, he seems to be saying... "This wont help everyone. It has helped me. If you are like me then it might help you."
If your gonna try be prepared to eat FAT! I had a tub of clotted cream yesterday and climbed all night with energy throughout! Didn’t finish though!
i think he is saying referenced studies don’t have credibility as those trialled typically are poorly adapted or not following a proper keto diet (low carb is looow). He uses his first try as an example of how lack of detail results in failure.
It’s working for me.
> Not sure if this is covered in the video as I can't be bothered to sit through 4 hours of it, but it seems to be a good idea on paper in the short term but the long term effects are unknown
I've been on a keto diet since about the mid 2000s. I've easily kept around 10%BF with no calorie counting (and the odd big blow outs on booze during 6N). At the same time my active peers complain of middle-age spread - even the runners. Keto (TKD) was a game-changer for me.
Caveat 1: Anecdote != evidence.
Cavest 2: Beware Survivorship Bias: there could be a thousand others out there who 'went keto' and can't post here because they're all dead! 😬
Good reply, have an upvote
4 hours? He needs an editor.
What an infantile post, how old are you, 12?
> What an infantile post, how old are you, 12?
The irony on that post.
Ok, I'm 20:20 in to this film and Dave absolutely frickin nails it. I was a similar age in 2007 (35), when i realised that CICO whilst irrefutable for weight loss, was not the best model for fat loss.
Eating fewer calories than you expend is a necessary condition but eating low calorie food is not a necessary part or the solution. Satiety and satitation trump willpower (which is exhaustible).
> It raises a wry smile as i reflect on the UKC Keto Diet War circa 2008. IYKYK.
I didn’t realise Dave had received such a tough time because of his stance on Keto (at around 01:01:00 in the vid).
Boom. Done the whole 4hrs (at 1.5x speed 😉). Excellent exploration of the topic with some novel insights.
I wish I'd had this video 15 years ago because going against conventional wisdom on some issues like LDL, saturated fat, high protein and fasting, never mind lowering CHO, was pretty scary. Trying to navigate the science was challenging. Dave does a great job with these issues and breaks down the science really well. He's cautious with speculation and qualifies his position/understanding throughout.
It's interesting that he now resolves to a cyclical/flexible approach to keto/LC after a period of initial restriction. This is where i quickly ended up (as did others i knew who were using this approach).
I'm looking forward to his future episodes.
ATAWNTM*, so could you CMWP*, and FITB*?
(* All These Abbreviations Were New To Me, Check My Working Please, Fill In The Blanks)
LDL (low-density lipoprotein) I already knew, as a type of cholesterol.
(Wouldn't have bothered posting if I didn't think that your points were interesting and worth being able to understand fully. If you could invest an extra few seconds typing, then the 'saving' for the multiple readers would be several times the extra effort.)
Re-reading whole thread I see that TKD is probably: Targeted Ketogenic Diet.
Excited to watch this, hopefully he GEOTA*.
(Goes Easy On The Acronyms)
Yet to watch the video but i'll get cracking tonight, sounds like an epic!
I've had a very similar approach to keto to you - I went zero carb about three years ago but am now just low carb (imo this is more achievable with family meals). My experience is that my energy levels are far more stable and I'll never go back to a carb based diet. Anecdotally I also seem to pick up far less soft tissue injuries than before.
> TKD = The Keto Diet?
> %BF = percentage body fat?
> 6N = ?? Something lockdown-related maybe?
> IYKYK = ?? If you know your ...?
> LC = low-carb?
> CICO = calories-in, calories-out?
> LDL (low-density lipoprotein) I already knew, as a type of cholesterol.
You've nailed several acronyms. The corrections:
TKD = Targeted Ketogenic Diet (higher CHO lower fat on training days, lower CHO higher fat on rest days)
6N = Six Nations rugby tournament
IYKYK = If you know, you know.
Use of CHO (carbohydrate), PRO (protein) and FAT is common in nutrition papers. Other acronyms you'll come across include CKD (Cyclical Ketogenic Diet). Lyle McDonald's "The Ketogenic Diet" book is a brilliant resource if you want to dig in to this subject.
My turn. What does PM stand for? 😉
Ta! Kicking myself for not figuring out 6N now. PM possibly stands for Pedantic Motherf… in this case.
Out of interest what started you on the Paleo route?
After spending a lot of time in SW France c.20-25 years ago I realised that all my French in-laws/friends were eating volumes of fat that would get the sirens wailing here yet they were all elegantly thin, healthy and not shy of booze or other culinary pleasures. They consumed nothing like the volume of refined carbs that we do though and portions were smaller, though I never went hungry.
However when anyone here sees you living off fat and meat you get more sceptical opinions than vegans do.
I go back and forth, but I always feel better and am less lardy during periods where my diet is meat and fat heavy. I am lucky in being able to do this without my cholesterol level going above 5 though. Also, at risk of lowering the tone, if I’m eating lots of fibre (oats, bread) and stodge (rice, spuds, rarely pasta) visits to the bog are generally unsatisfactory whereas a diet of meat, eggs, fat and veg would win me a medal from Gillian McKeith.
I am about half way through.
Interesting how DM dismisses the work of towse? In one breath the repeatedly references him almost immediately afterwards
We should probably stick to TLAs
Do you have a specific time reference for this?
No, and not prepared to go through it all again.
DM mock spits at first mention of the name without qualifying, then repeatedly references later. Somewhere in the second hour, 2 hours is as far as I have got.
Fair enough. I had a quick look (the bit you mention is at 1:28:00) but couldn't see any other references to Gary Towse (or however it is spelled). It's possible Dave disagrees with his conclusions/interpretations but references for the raw results of a study?
Gary Taubes ruffles the feathers of the nutrition industry with his books about fat and sugar, being a physics-trained journalist. I got the impression that Dave approves of his work and was referencing the response of the diet-industry stalwarts with the faux spitting. Maybe Dave can clear this up for us?
> I am about half way through.
> Interesting how DM dismisses the work of towse? In one breath the repeatedly references him almost immediately afterwards
It's Gary Taubes he's referring to. Taubes wrote 'Good Calories, Bad Calories' which was quite influential in 2007 (Taubes drove a lot of interest in LC and Ketogenic diets. He digs in to some interesting history, raises very interesting questions, but omits to address some conflicting evidence).
Taubes predicates his obesity model on the insulin hypothesis. This has been pretty much debunked now and nutritionists with strong scientific backgrounds like 'Carbsane', Alan Aragon, James Krieger and Stephan Guyenet have written some excellent analysis explaining why that model no longer flies.
> Out of interest what started you on the Paleo route?
I was vegetarian (and then went vegan)for best part of a decade. I looked and performed reasonably well in sport, took care to follow a nutritionally complete diet, but given my training I was dissatisfied with how i looked.
I went back to thinking about the basics (2005ish) and ditched veganism. Within 6 months back on meat i was bigger, stronger and leaner. I quickly found a burgeoning paleo movement in 2006/7 which gave me confidence to go against a lot of the conventional wisdom on diets as they'd dig up lots of useful research and the some bright scientists moved in those circles.
It's odd that 15 years later some of that 'conventional wisdom' about LC, satfat, fasting etc... persists. Dave has spent years pulling out research, critiquing it, and then presented it - yet on the other channel, someone who has not watched Dave's video feels able to denounce it as a diet requiring 'willpower' (Dave explicitly tackles this idea), talks about issues of 'digestive stability' and suggests LC is taking a 'risk' as it is a 'relatively radical diet'.
That kind of ignorant, clownish comment was prevelant back in 2007. No excuse for it to continue, yet it does. It's closed minded. The science on LC, fasting, satfat etc... has radically evolved in the last decade. I can't believe some people haven't noticed.
> almost preaching that vegetarians are wrong in their choice and are disadvantaged
Yep, it's pretty sickening how he rams his opinions down other people's throat, for example (from the end of a related Dave MacLeod vid: youtube.com/watch?v=UPi41bSrFdI& ): "There is only one thing that I recommend in any of these discussions, which is education. I really hope that people take the time – and it does take a lot of time and effort – to read beyond the headlines or the opinions of any single person that you see on the internet, including myself, and read the raw research, and try to understand all aspects of the physiology."
Seriously, he's always so almost-painfully politely careful to say: 'this worked for me, it might not for you', 'there's not enough evidence to draw a conclusion either way here', or 'this is what I did, and not advice or a recommendation', it's quite impressive to me that someone could manage to manage to distil his intent down into 'vegetarians are wrong' preaching.
I found it to be an extremely interesting video, and I don't recall (despite it being four hours long!) there being a single mention of how much meat (specifically) or protein (generally) he eats daily.
I can't comprehend the amount of effort that has gone into researching the topic, never mind producing the video, and I'm sure both people who have a passing interest in diet (but no intention of trying keto) or anyone who's a totally committed vegetarian/vegan would find lots of interest, nothing 'threatening' and no pressure/preaching to change their position or diet, if viewed with open-minded curiosity and interest.
Or, alternatively, there is the position that someone who thinks eating meat is important and valuable for their own health can never again have anything else of value to say, even on the wider topic of diet more generally.
It's not a hard to guess which sort of person one would rather stumble across in an isolated bothy, irrespective of whether they're vegetarian or not.
I accept that your mind is highly unlikely to be anything but firmly made-up here, but what you describe and what I've seen from DM, I struggle to relate to each other.
> - yet on the other channel, someone who has not watched Dave's video feels able to denounce it as a diet requiring 'willpower' (Dave explicitly tackles this idea),
Dave kind of glosses over it really, but for me not drinking alcohol and drastically reducing my portions if carbs would require way more willpower than just controlling portion sizes and limiting the ‘bad’ things to being occasional.
> Dave kind of glosses over it really, but for me not drinking alcohol and drastically reducing my portions if carbs would require way more willpower than just controlling portion sizes and limiting the ‘bad’ things to being occasional.
Change requires willpower and willpower is exhaustible. But this misses the LC nuance which is to do with satiety and satiation and not to do with portion sizes per se.
A thought experiment; we go to an 'all you can eat' pizza buffet and stuff our faces with 15 slices! Then i offer a bet as to who can eat another 2000 calories. The catch is, you have to eat 2000 calories in boiled eggs (over 20), but i get to eat a piece of rich chocolate cake and sugary latte. Who will win?
WHAT you eat can matter more than portion control because of food reward and palatability etc....
'The Hungry Brain' by Stephan Guyenet is a good read on food reward etc..
> Change requires willpower and willpower is exhaustible. But this misses the LC nuance which is to do with satiety and satiation and not to do with portion sizes per se.
So you would agree that low carb requires will power, but you consider the type of willpower to stick to a rigid set of rules about what you can and can’t eat to be less than that to moderate a mixed diet. I think this may come down to personality type, as I’m certainly the opposite.
In your thought experiment you just took yourself out of ketosis, so you may as well enjoy the cake too!
There's a bit of me which thinks that there's a pretty high overlap in terms of what you've said there with a "don't eat highly processed calorie bombs" diet, since they tend to be very calorie dense but not very filling. I have never tried going seriously low carb but did get reasonable results from just swapping some of my carbs for veg some years ago - less calorie dense food hitting some of the triggers of fullness/satiety. And that was obviously far less restrictive in terms of removing large food groups.
> So you would agree that low carb requires will power, but you consider the type of willpower to stick to a rigid set of rules about what you can and can’t eat to be less than that to moderate a mixed diet. I think this may come down to personality type, as I’m certainly the opposite.
I only agree LC requires willpower in as much as any change requires will power. But appetite quickly adapts and so the need for willpower to sustain LC quickly drops (Dave explicitly addresses this).
LC isn't really a rigid set of rules any more than you writing down your weekly meal plan and asking me to follow it, is. LC is guidance and can be flexed (as Dave advises he does, as do LC advocates above).
I agree that personal experience can play a part.
> In your thought experiment you just took yourself out of ketosis, so you may as well enjoy the cake too!
That was to illustrate the point that portion control is not the only or necessarily a significant part of reducing calories consumed.
In fact it was an example that shows why CHO makes it easy to over consume in a way you couldn't on a LC, high FAT and PRO diet; you voluntarily restrict calories without need for willpower!
However, I'm currently resisting cake - see the Die Lard thread!
I know several people on low carb for whom not going for chips or toast is still a constant fight, so I’d say the appetite adaption seems to vary from person to person too.
I don’t have a meal plan btw, but I think trying to describe low carb as not being rigid when you have to control your carb intake and also make sure you’re eating enough fat (and salt it seems from Dave Mac’s vid) seems a bit of a stretch.
> I know several people on low carb for whom not going for chips or toast is still a constant fight, so I’d say the appetite adaption seems to vary from person to person too.
Agreed. You can go too LC, and LC-flu is tough. I go for a TKD approach.
> I don’t have a meal plan btw, but I think trying to describe low carb as not being rigid when you have to control your carb intake and also make sure you’re eating enough fat (and salt it seems from Dave Mac’s vid) seems a bit of a stretch.
Just as you don't have a meal plan, i don’t, but i know my diet is LC as, like most of us, I eat from a regular range of meals. I just choose a higher CHO option on a training day and lower CHO on a rest day. These days tend to be fixed, so no real need to think about the nutrient profile - i don't operate at that level. I think in terms of meals not macros. Habit takes care of thing nowadays.
I wouldn't have any idea about salt intake. In fact do you know the nutritional profile of your diet? I've never had need to. I do have a rough idea of the macros in my meals to ensure i get enough PRO daily and i have some heuristics (such as a fist sized spud is about 200g of which 40g is CHO), but it's all quite coarse. My appetite does the heavy lifting. Life's too short to stress this stuff.
You probably think your diet is moderate/normal, and I'd say the same about mine. It comes down to what you're used to. In fact it's those who eat a typical Western diet that need to monitor salt, fat and sugar.
> It raises a wry smile as i reflect on the UKC Keto Diet War circa 2008. IYKYK.
Those were the days. Better than arguing about Brexit, at least keto has some benefits.
There’s some interesting discussion about this in the ultra / endurance world. Some athletes have had some success on this diet; Zach Bitter had the 100 mile track record for a while. For shorter distances (50k race walkers) the excellent Supernova studies have definitively shown that carbohydrate rich diets are better for endurance performance.
Tim Nokes and Phil Maffetone, endurance gurus, have both gone all in on Keto for health reasons. I’m not sure if they’re right of wrong, but there’s an excellent Tim Hoax spoof account on Twitter 😃
I watched the whole video and thought it was great. I’ve done Keto three times, in 2010, 2018 and 2020. Each time was for about 3 months and each time I lost between 10 - 15 kg. I have always fallen off it due to finding it hard to stick to with family/friends/social occasions/beer etc. Each time I’ve stopped, the weight has just piled back in to my previous set point. Having watched this I’m keen to do it again and just accept that it’s for the long term. I always feel better in ketosis anyway. I reckon that Dave’s video is a great resource and I can’t wait for the follow up films.