UKC

Does anyone know what the queues of Land Rovers who periodically make their way up and down Stanage Causeway on busy weekends, are actually doing?

Are they MRT? Park warden-related? or just Land Rover enthusiasts doing it for kicks?

Cos I have to say if the latter - most. boring. outdoor. 'sport'. ever.

I mean, why? Downhill mountain biking, I can see the point - exciting, exhilerating, dangerous, skillful, etc. But driving a 4x4 down the causeway? It's sufficiently rough that someone has to get out every 5-10 yards to negotiate a rocky bit, so it's not like you can even get up enough speed to be exciting or exhilerating. Dangerous? you're in a land rover for heaven's sake. Skillful? Maybe it's possible one will get irretrievably stuck on pointy boulders, or fall down a ravine or something, but somehow they always seem to make it down.

Come on, justify yourselves.

In reply to plexiglass_nick: They can't!

In reply to plexiglass_nick: They like getting stuck, making a small traffic jam, getting their jacks out,and standing around in the countryside to have a chat

In reply to plexiglass_nick:
We live in hope. Just hope they don't damage anyone or any routes on the way.

They don't just go down, they also go up it sometimes!

In reply to johnj:


They aren't just jacks, they're _high lift_ jacks. Always. I think Dr Freud would be able to enlighten us further

In reply to plexiglass_nick: Its called greenlaneing and is enjoyed fore the sake of doing it much the same as climbing and i'm sure many greenlaners wouldnt quite understand peoples desire to climb on stanage edge.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

You have a point, it does look very boring in that all of the 4x4s I've seen on the causeway have had to go at a snail's pace to get over the terrain.

More to the point, though, is the damage that these vehicles do to the land. Last time I was there, I witnessed four vehicles struggling to make their way down over some of the larger boulders. They grounded on the rock - each and every one of them - and gouged deep scratches into the gritstone. On one boulder, a flake the size of a fist had been smashed off.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:
I belive that,that track is a byway open to all traffic or B.O.A.T.these are usually old unsurfaced roads and tracks.there arent many of these left as they are being systimaticaly closed to every one but foot traffic.

off road driving is more about skill than ripping round the countryside doing damage and annoying people.Althought there will be some who will and do and dont care and give everyone else a bad name. But then this is the same with any activity there is alway as small group who anonnoy another user group

i have done some offroad driving on boats and private land and is great fun on a purpose built course with different obsticals to negotiate.

everyone has a right of access to the countryside as long as they us it in
a resposible manner and stick to there leagle rights of way. and im would say there are more miles of badly damage foot paths and scared hill sides than dammaged B.o.a.t's

ive prob opened a whole can of worms now but hay this is my opinion. your free to have yours.

Paul.

In reply to pwood:
Now if they only stuck to the road all may be well, but they cannot any more as they have damaged it so much it is impassable, so they drive on the verges, into the retaining fence and damage even more land. Maybe a prosecution for doing that may stop a lot trying to get up the causway. If it was a trial on a field with markers they would have fails galore.

http://www.sportingtrials.com/Trial%20gallerys/BTRDA%20Gold%20Star%202005/D...

In reply to sutty:
in that case they where acting irrisponsibly. i have spoken at length with a rep from Glass,who was telling me about the repair work they have done.
have you ever seen walkers and climbers or mountain bikers going round a puddle on a path making the path wider?

In reply to pwood:

Repair work is, in the main cosmetic. Bluntly, these vehicles exploit legislation that was never designed for a Shogun with a wading kit, desert dust filter and uprated suspension. It was designed for horses with carts. And it wasn't that popular for that, otherwise the lane would have been uprated and tarmaced 80 years ago.

People in vehicles cause much more damage - a dozen off road fearless adreneline junkies cause more erosion in a day than a years worth of red socks. Plus that drystone wall has just the material they need to build up so they can get their HI-LIFT (c) jack under the back axle.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:


I think you're being a little narrow minded on this one. I don't drive a 4X4 but i can see the attraction. Driving skill, team effort to release stuck veihicles etc. Its only as stupid as climbing a cliff face when you could just as easily walk around.

Its poor logic to say that becase you don't like a sport its not worth its environmental impact and hypocritical considering the dammage that climbers also do to Stannage and the surrounding areas.

I don't recall the causway sticking out like a sore thumb but i would agree that there are probably better places to use you're 4x4 and better ways to enjoy the scenery and nature but we have to look at what we as climbers do to the area before getting highbrow and laying into some chaps that are legally driving down a public road.

In reply to toad: I'm guessing you're the sort of person who rants about 4x4 owners never taking their vehicle offroad and clogging up your streets.

In reply to Matthew Burton:

Except that rock is a rather hard substance whereas greenlanes are nacient rights of way, which were designed for feet, packhorses and pall bearers, not knobbers in 4x4's.

Have you seen the state of a typical green lane? theone above Dent is impassable, and Mastilles Lane, one of our most ancient is well on it's way to being fooked.

what green laners are doing is taking the piss out of the law, which was designed for Heathcliffe on his horse, not a Shogun with Gary and Wayne in it.

In reply to petellis:

Yes I agree that you have a point but consider this, if the amount of people that climbed at Stanage went green laneing then the damage would be massive and unsustainable. I think we all have a responsibility to use the environment in a sustainable way and maybe the Stanage Causeway should be closed and they could play somewhere else where the damage was more manageable and sustainable.

But lets be honest ....their all a bunch of big girls blouses and should get some pedals! :-p

In reply to Nevis-the-cat:


It is like this for 30 miles.


A 1,000 year old right of way, f*cked in 20

http://www.walkingenglishman.com/dalescelebrationway/day3/06.jpg

In reply to Nevis-the-cat: don`t you pick on the Simon and Lyndsay offroaders you goddam hippy green fascist !

Next, you`ll be saying that Clarkson is an irresponsible, selfish fat cnut.

It really is the thin end of the wedge etc. etc.

In reply to Nevis-the-cat:

looks good to me, just pedal like fook

In reply to Nevis-the-cat: Tht's the same one where I found guys industriously stripping the wall to get some rocks to lob under their landy.

In reply to graeme jackson:

I'm guessing you are the sort of people who will defend the actions of offroad vehicle owners, regardless of their actions and in the face of reasoned dabate, simply because you own one.

In reply to Nevis-the-cat:
Green laning is just f*cking ridiculous. A great big automotive wank.

I own a Defender....it is a work vehicle, not a weekend toy. I imagine that it is 'green laners' that wave at other Landrover drivers, with all those lights, spades, sand ladders and other such shite hangin off their roof rack.
Knobs.

In reply to toad:

If that's the one near Whernside there's a sign at each end requesting off-roaders don't use it. We got to one end at the same time as a bloke on a trials bike who looked at us, loked at the sign then rode off on the metalled road. We started to pick our way through the bog, only to be met by the same bloke coming the other way. Obviously they only get churned up if you ride round them one way, going in the opposite direction must repair it.

In reply to Ridge:

cheesewire - you need cheesewire

In reply to Nevis-the-cat: years ago I remember reading a Perrin article about him and his mates sabotaging some offroaders route in Wales.

Sounds fine to me apart from the possibility of taking out non motor users n all.

In reply to Nevis-the-cat: Personally I dont drive greenlanes unless I have a good reason such as access for tree work or farming activities. All i'm saying is that i see how that sort of driving is an attractive activity to some.

Landrovers on greenlanes do considerably more damage than climbers on crags, i cant argue there. I do think some of the more visible rights of access should be made for genuine access only, this would still leave lots of what are effectively farm tracks for these drivers to enjoy their past time. If you were to put much of the arguement on this thread to active greenlaners i'm sure they'd have multiple comebacks.

In reply to pwood:
No that road was very well surfaced by the Romans. It stayed in reasonable nick for the traffic it was carrying (people, horses, the odd bike) until about 10-15 years ago when 4x4 traffic became common. Since then the sufrace has degraded to the point at which you wouldn't know it was a made road.

Most byways are like that, ancient roads and trackways that were not designed for 4x4's and aren't capable of taking them. Many of them were never suitible for anything heavier than pack horses. The redesignation of the tracks is sad because we are losing the history of these ancient roadways, however given their use by large numbers of 4x4's its either that or upgraded them to proper dirt tracks. Where foot paths see very heavy use most are being upgraded to the "roman road" standard of most national park "moterways" or people are encouraged on to other already upgraded paths.

greenlaning => what happens when a sunday driver buys a 4x4....

In reply to davidwright:

spot on.

In reply to Nevis-the-cat: the old road coming of Rushup edge down into Edale, used to be ridable going up five years ago, now its rutted, two foot drops, slippy, and lots of bits to catch you out, thanks to the 4x4 brigade it's probably the best downhill in the peak for the now!

In reply to Nevis-the-cat:

To be honest on that path your right. When it was used as a footpath it was a barely noticable mark on the grass. Now you can count the number of trail bikes that have used it to cross from one byway to another...

In reply to Ridge:
I was wandering along the bridleway underneath Plover Hill and Penyghent the other weekend, watching the trials bikes churning up the bogs. Don't know if that's legal, but I sadly suspect it is.

In reply to plexiglass_nick: i own a landrover, mainly for offroad competitions, but i will use it for greenlaning,far better to use it for what its actually designed for than clogging up the roads.the drivers have as much right to be there as you do.most off road clubs make an effort to repair any damage caused, and when done properly, and with a bit of know how and thought, greenlaning shouldnt cause any damage really.to be fair you do get folk who decide that taking a wall apart to get a stone to stick under the wheel is an acceptable practice, but you get people like that in everything,people who think its acceptable to chip holds, mountainbikers that go round puddles and make tracks wider.theres already too many boats closed.

In reply to plexiglass_nick: also those that think its clever to sabbotage green lanes to stop 4x4s going on them should take the time to find the article about the enterprising bastard that put a spike strip in a deep puddle to pop tyres and consequently nearly had a horse rider off after it stepped on it.

In reply to dannym2710:

Sorry, but a 2 ton Land Rover on a historic trackway designed for horses is not on. Saying it is all within the law is not the full argument, the law s simply obsolete and green laners are ust taking the piss.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

Hmm its not my thing but think of all the damage that walkers have done to most of our natural areas. Seems some people think that the activities they do are justified but not what other people do. Some people whinge about mountain biking too but the number of places where you are allowed to do it is actually fairly limited.

In reply to John Rushby: I was at stanage once on a quiet day, when a "fellow climber" started bellowing at the top of his well heeled lungs " I say you, stop, I SAID STOP" to a mountain biker who was riding on the top path.

Everyone turned to see what the commotion was about and the chap legged it off to "catch him on the bottom path". Why?

"What he was doing was illegal.."

Who gives a monkeys?

Leave people alone. If green laners currently are allowed to drive un metalled roads leave them to it.

I used to think climbers were ok, but they aren't, they are a bunch of selfish, egotistical tossers.

Threads like this prove it.

In reply to Daniel Armitage:

What they have done is truly sad - http://www.pbase.com/chris_craggs/image/70030325 - roll on the day it is tarmaced!


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Look at the bike lines through that, awesome!!!

In reply to plexiglass_nick: I find it disturbing how much damage they do. Last time I went to High Neb (Feb?) the road was a right mess with huge gouges of earth, massive puddles, it was terrible. As others have said, it's clearly an abuse of a right of way that was not intended for this.

youtube.com/watch?v=H9lHkYBlPFk&

In reply to Daniel Armitage:


Have you been drinking? That makes no sense.

In reply to Chris Craggs: ... Or go and beg 30 tonnes of scrap rock from a local quarry and fill in all the craters - make it a nice smooth track for walkers, cyclists and horse riders and then you'll take the 'adventure' out of it for the 4x4 ers. Without the 'challenge' they'd soon get bored of driving up and down it. Simple.

In reply to Milo: unfortunately closing lanes has lead to the ones that are still open to become more eroded, by way of forcing more and more people onto them.if the old lanes were still open we wouldnt have to go on the same few all the time.i agree with the comment about climbers being up their own arses.if somebody was to say they think climbers damage the rock and shouldnt be there they would be shot down instantly.if you happen to see a red q plate landrover 90 with a station wagon body and full off roading equip, feel free to stop me and vent your spleen,youll only get the same back, get a grip, greenlanes are for anyone.and by the way, im fairly sure that i, and the other landy drivers i know, judging by that picture,would be able to pass that lane without grounding out.

In reply to Mutl3y:tbh thats pretty much a video of how not to rock crawl.the idea being to keep it in low and 1st or 2nd, and crawl slowly over, therefore not bouning around, smashing rocks etc.dont put us all under the same blanket

In reply to plexiglass_nick: I was enjoying a very peaceful day on the causeway crags last year when they trundled up and got stuck for half an hour. I think they were the only other people I saw all day. It did make me think though, you come out here to get away from the roads and everyday life but that didn't stop the buggers. Still, I guess we all have the right to enjoy the countryside in our own ways.

In reply to John Rushby:

A while back someone posted a link to a petition to 'make wild camping legal'. Most people were against it, since knobbers would simply turn up in their shoguns, make bonfires out of gates "because it's legal, innit?"

The actions of 'green laners' and knobbers on trials bikes proves the point. "It's legal so I'm gonna do it", regardless of the disruption and damage.

In reply to Ridge:
I'm loving the 'but, but climbers chip holds(?) and mountain bikers ride round puddles' arguments on this thread. Like that is somehow the same as a convoy of fat chavvy bastards in 4x4s. What pish.

In reply to Hay:

of course it is, horse for courses, one mans E5 is someones total path

In reply to dannym2710:

No one's forcing people to drive a 4X4 down a historic track. A grown up with an an IQ over 15 would realise that taking his 4X4 down such a track is going to f*ck it.


Green lanes are a legal anomoly. THe law protecting them is weak and this is being exploited. THer is a moral question as to why it should be acceptable to wreck something that has lain unassaulted for 1,000 or 2,ooo years.

If I happen to see a red Q plate landie wrecking a green lane be assured I will drag the driver from his cab and rub his f*cking nose in it.

In reply to John Rushby: Its only a matter of time till they find the way in to hope cross

In reply to John Rushby:

So presumably you don't think recreational walking and climbing should be allowed either?

In reply to grumsta:

Hardly comparable.

I would go further, trashing green lanes is akin to climbers wilfully ignoring bird bans, and chipping as they go.

In reply to John Rushby: It's the hoary old cliche about everyone knowing their rights and no one being prepared to face up to the associated responsibilities

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

Thanks to all those who have branded all 4x4 drivers as chavy bastards and the like.

Incidentally, there are a number of threads about Stanage on several Land Rover forums at the moment, and the general feeling there is that the state of the causeway is unacceptable too. As has been pointed out Most LR clubs and greenlane associations do a lot to repair lanes, and contrary to what someone on here said it's not just cosmetic work they do.

Yes there are drivers who are irresponsible, but thats the same as anything in life, the minority can spoil it for the majority. If climbers were squeaky clean too then they might be more justified in adopting the moral high ground.

In reply to LCJ:

Fair comment.

I am responding to those who are saying "it's my right and I'll do it if I want to".

In reply to LCJ: Perhaps I was wrong in calling it cosmetic, it's more about damage limitation. It isn't restoration of the path to an appropriate pre-vehicle damage condition, it's about producing a surface that is more resilient to further vehicle damage, but still retains enough of a bounce that 4 wheel drive users can get their kicks. It's the equivalent of bolting holds onto an outdoor crag.

In reply to LCJ:

"Thanks to all those who have branded all 4x4 drivers as chavy bastards and the like"

Read the thread. I said that and I also said I drive a Landrover. Owning a 4x4 does not neccesarily single you out as a chavvy bastard. Roaring about the countryside in a 4x4 carving up pony paths does. If not chavvy bastard then just an arsehole.

In reply to John Rushby:

The video of the causeway is interesting, interesting for the second bit. What looks like an old muddy quarry. That is surely where the 4x4's should go and play. It would appear that the problem is them dipping in their pocket and paying to use the facilities

Many of the green lanes near me have TRO traffic restriction orders placed on them. They stay as green lanes but the 4x4's have no access

In reply to Hay:

the horses are quite good at that themselves during the winter months

In reply to John Rushby:

Agreed, I think if you give someone a right (albeit perhaps unintentionally with greenlanes given their historic background) then you have to expect them to exercise it, and that is what off-roaders do. However most that I've come across and know exercise this right considerately, it's those that adopt a bloody minded 'I'll do this because I can' attitude that cause the most damage.

In reply to Hay:

"I imagine that it is 'green laners' that wave at other Landrover drivers, with all those lights, spades, sand ladders and other such shite hangin off their roof rack.
Knobs."

I extend my thanks to you too.

In reply to Milo:

It wouldn't work, that was more or less the state it was in when the vandalism started

In reply to davidwright:

in my opinion one of the biggest reasons for the the remaining lains being dammaged is due to the fact that they are being closed down so there are less places to go. concentrating the problem due to the inability to spread the load.
imagine if all climbing was band in the peaks/any othere area bar for 1 or 2 crags, do you think people would give up climbing? or would the remaining craggs be trashed? Have you seen sum off the dammage do to the southern sand stone crags where there are loads of people and not many crags?
or what if you closed all the foot paths in north wales and told every one that you could only go up 1 or 2 hill what would be the result.
as walkers and climbers we have the ability to spread the load over a vast area and we are lucky to have that. othere groups dont have that.

In reply to pwood: Rubbish. The reason the some restrictions are in place is because there was damage being done. If what you say was true there would have been no reason to introduce restrictions in the first place.

In reply to LCJ:

>Incidentally, there are a number of threads about Stanage on several Land Rover forums at the moment, and the general feeling there is that the state of the causeway is unacceptable too

I read a couple of them yesterday;

http://forum.glag.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=77&sid=5f4faaa712d81c0d2322d6d4...

It seems the causeway is only supposed to be descended, however there IS a solution the landy owners could help with. They could carry a load of hardcore up there, the Peak Park people might supply it, and repair some of the damage. If everyone did that each trip, there would possibly be a lot less antagonism to them, and they may even be welcomed on some lanes.

Think of it as being like the climbers crag cleanups, working to get better facilities for all.

The trials bikers may have to be kept off them if they were not willing to help, in fact a permit to use them could be conditional on the users going on a working party every three months.

In reply to sutty:

Toll Booths?

In reply to sutty: That has been suggested on one of the forums - applying to the Park to have it closed and then voluntarily repairing it.

This happens a lot, especially on the popular lanes. Long Mynd was repaired last weekend, the Old Coach Road in Keswick was done not long ago, ditto some of the lanes around Grizedale.

pwood makes a good point too, there are probably just too many competing interests and not enough space in this country

In reply to LCJ:

As LCJ says:

http://www.crag-uk.org/forum/showthread.php?p=19848#post19848

In reply to pwood:

Cr@p the damage is being done by very few 4x4's. A single 4x4 over some of those "roads" produces significant damage. Those rights of way are being lost because the land can't sustain the level of damage being done by the current low levels of 4x4 vandalism. In a short while the whole activity will stop because none of the rights of way currently in use can sustain the usages they now have. In a few cases where the rights of way have been upgraded to properly made dirt roads they might stay open but I don't think these will offer the level of "challenge" wanted. Spreading the load won't work because there is no load of 4x4 traffic that the byways can cope with.


We don't have to imagine it we know what it was like. All I need do is look at the difference between stanage popular and bamford to see the degree of damage done.

>Have you seen sum off the dammage do to the southern sand stone crags where there are loads of people and not many crags?

I climb on those crags regularly, the problem there is as much geology as usage rates Harrison's and Stanage popular see very similar rates of use. However look at the photos Chris has posted and you'll see how much damage has been done to causway in less than 10 years. That damage has been done by no more than 10 4x4's in a typical weekend over that period probably fewer. If climbing on harrisons did damage at that rate the crag wouldn't be there now. Given the traffic and the underlying geology there is little damage done to those crags.

I've seen this in Essex while a path is in use by walkers and riders its passable at a run at all times of year however bad it looks. Get 4x4's or trail bikes on it and within weeks its turned into an impassable quagmire from October to May.

In reply to davidwright:
>

That's more a time of year argument isn't it? Going on any soft ground when its wet will cause year long damage. Horses can render soft ground into a quagmire when its wet just as well as the iron horse

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

Not all 4 x 4 clubs are irresponsible.

Abou 10 years ago our local Land Rover Club spent a lot of time and effort re-opening some local By Ways which had become totally overgrown and fallen into disuse. They spent the whole summer cutting back trees and vegetation, and filling in ruts and potholes, creating some very pleasant walks. They of course used the lanes for green laning themselve in dry weather but continued to maintain these By Ways. They received a lot of positive press publicity.

But then what happened?

Gangs of didicoys discovered these newly opened tracks running deep into woodland and started using them for access into the woods for fly tipping, eventually re-blocking the By Ways with tipped rubbish, burnt out cars etc.

In reply to Trangia:

Don't be racist.


































"Theiving Pikey Bastards" is the PC term..

In reply to woolsack:

No, the damage gets done at any time of year. Horses don't do as much damage and don't do it in the same way. A bridle path might be heavy going but it will be passable. Trail bikes and 4x4's cut up the land much more.

In reply to davidwright:
going back to my original point every one has a right of access to our countryside as long as it resposible. I in no way condown the ripping up of the contryside. as as i said in my 1st post there are a few who spoil it for the rest.and i do feel it a bit trendy to bash 4x4s at the moment. im sure there are (as ive met some) very hard working green laners who do repair work and consider there impact. everyone has an effect on our land and we all need to take resposibility for our bit if we want to us it.

nearly every user group annoys someone else.the impact on the enviroment is massive. shall we have a go at game keepers and farmer afterall most of the land has been permanantly alterd so cattle and sheep can be grased or birds bred for shooting lots of land cleared so someone can shoot grouse or deer.

well i was right about the can of worms any way! lets hope the weather picks up so we can all go climbing and not sit round grummbling.

Paul.

In reply to pwood:
>

However there is no way in which you can drive 4x4's over most of those tracks without doing excesive and irreparable damage to them. If these people considered the damage they were doing to the land they wouldn't be driving over Stanage coursway in a 4x4 in either direction. I first saw 4x4's on that track in 1995 and said then that if it wasn't stopped the track would be trashed inside 10 years. The answer for that track is very simple down graded it to a bridle way then repair it. Repairing without down grading is a waste of time and effort. Upgraded it so the track can take 4x4's and it'll be about two weeks before some idiot gets a 32 ton truck stuck on it trying to go from bamford to dronfield.


None of the english country side is in a pristine state, most of it requires active intervention to keep it in its current nick but that doesn't mean that driving 4x4's over tracks that can't bare veicles of that size, weight and power improves matters any.

In reply to davidwright:

"However there is no way in which you can drive 4x4's over most of those tracks without doing excesive and irreparable damage to them."

Try during the summer or dry spells where the ground isnt soaked. and the driving i have done on lanes used by farm vehicals regularly.
32ton trucks are down to bad mapping on sat navs not 4x4 enthusiasts

i see you live in london, now there is some where 4x4 should be band for being un nessicary.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

Some 4x4 green road enthusiasts were talking in the office today:

"Only 3% of public rights of way are open to vehicles, why can't the bloody ramblers stick to the other 97% and stop complaining?"

In reply to Mutl3y:
Looks like it would be good fun taking the Downhil bike up there, then run down the trail and over the cars, some great drops at the back end of them.

In reply to The New NickB:

I'm guessing you are the sort of person who likes to stick his nose in, say something sarcastic, make no contribution, accuse people of ignoring reasoned debate without offering a reasoned debate yourself and then get niggly with people. Fantastic.

In reply to pwood:


You will still do damage even in summer particularly to the kind of soil that underlies the peak district moors. In particular you will break up surface layer unless the road has been graded. Even walking on farm tracks you can always tell where the farmer drives his vehicals and that is 1 4x4 every few days. The only bits that aren't damaged are where the tracks have been graded properly. The causeway will continue to break up and be damaged even further untill eventually the reataining walls of the road collapse. The only response that will preserve the utility of the landscape in the mid to long term is to reclassify the causeway as a bridleway. The loss of utility to 4x4 drivers will be minimal there is the good traditional alternative route via Owler Bar.


Upgrade Stanage causway to the point at which it can cope with the 4x4 traffic it currently gets and you will have a track that is of a type that the database at navigation_for_brainless_lemmings.com will want to know about some of the time. The robot that produces the database from the mapping data won't know which of those tracks it needs to know about and those it doesn't and thus recoreds them all so you get the target audience of navigation_for _brainless_lemmings trying to drive over the road in 32 ton trucks.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

now if i wasn't a climber i could say what are all those people doing on the rocks, scaring the hillside with all the tracks they make,ruining all the vegatation at the base and the top of the crags all the way along, all the people they put out when they take a fall,MRTs Helicopters,etc.

their probably enjoying their selves, the same as 4X4 users!!

but i am, so i won't

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

I own a economical small 4x4, I sometimes go down posh green lanes (private access roads) for a bit of fun when it has been raining. Although these lanes are dirt tracks, they are for vehicle access to the posh houses that run alongside. Never cause any damage as I my jeep is tiny.

If I had a sump guard I would probably go to a old quarry (definately would have to be a dedicated 4x4 site) where I could roll around without churning up beautiful countryside.

I can tell you that bouncing about on a wobbly track in a 4x4 is far from boring, takes some skill (otherwise you damage the vehicle), dangerous no, but you do get the heart racing when you hit a large puddle, thus cannot see a thing through the windscreen and car has taken off and lands with you hitting yer head on the roof. Have driven a tractor a few times and that was alot of fun!

As for the landies on the causeway, rather selfish of them, there are plenty of dedicated off roading sites across the UK to play in.

Lara Croft x

In reply to plexiglass_nick: due to this thread, the very first lane the landy does when its back up and running is stanage causeway.shot yourself in the foot there a bit didnt you

In reply to Lara Croft: to me a pay and play site is quite boring, you know what to expect and at the end of the day you could drive round most of them in a family car with a bit of skill.i intend to do club trials, that take place on farmers land, and do a lot of lanes as well

http://www.peakdistrict-nationalpark.info/people/northLees/visit/index.html...

I don't think anyone who climbs at Stanage is in a position to be so bloody hypocritical.

In reply to dannym2710: To$$er chav. Come to S Wales, you'll feel at home here - there's 2000 year old Roman tracks you can really screw up with your mates. Get yourself a jetski at the same time, why don't you.

In reply to fiveknuckle: I've been climbing at Stanage for 35 years. How much litter have I dropped in that time? None. How many extra tracks have I created? None. How much rock have I scratched? None. How much noise and pollution have I introduced? None. (I might have wimpered once or twice.)

So I can't see how I'm being hypocritical by objecting to children driving their silly 'landys', playing at soldiers, ruining the peace and carving up ancient tracks and encroaching on the fragile wilderness.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward: You are a climber. You put other peoples lives at risk (MRT) by what you choose to do with your own.

This makes you wantonly selfish, just like the 4x4 drivers, therefore you are a hypocrite.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:
these guys are my heros
youtube.com/watch?v=EbPERR2aybc&

In reply to Daniel Armitage:

There's far more risk involved in driving to the crag than in the actual climb.


Total rubbish.

In reply to The Purple Pimpernel:

Are you going to start stalking me on every thread, simply becaue I do not lap up your football related hate filled ranting.

In reply to Ridge: The argument might have more force if there was an army of volunteers who spent their free time cheerfully repairing bridleways after 4x4s had trashed them.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:
its fun. Simple as that. No worse for the environment than 1 thousand climbers on stanage. hey, your sport and one of mine up therecame about because some one broke the law. glass houses and all that.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:
Please, would all those who reply get their facts right first. Eg rattling on about 4wd on bridleways. agreed there is illegal use, just like those who climb in the quarries in wales. However most use legal rights. No good spouting on about its bad. One rule for you and one for the rest of us maybe??
As far as I am concerned I have a million times more rights to take my landrover up my local roads than those bastard visitors who travel miles to climb on my local crags.
Live and let live. its whinging like this thats turning this country into a useless commie nanny state.

In reply to mattsccm: "Live and let live"

But it's not live and let live, is it? A relatively tiny number of people's "hobby" causes huge amounts of damage that spoils paths and lanes for the majority (go and have a look at Mastiles Lane near Malham for a 30 yard wide rutted quagmire that wasn't there 15 years ago) - that's why it's antisocial and selfish. 4WDs have been banned from most of the green lanes in the dales because over a very short (<10 years) period they've royally f*cked several lanes. The YDNP is reclassifying the lanes as bridleways to stop people driving along them precisely because a tiny minority's "fun" screws it up for the vast majority.

In reply to pwood: the off roading club at uni are a bunch of hippies so I'am told. I do believe there is an general extacate(spelling wrong but I'am some spelling troll will along to correct me) by the most off roaders not to do damaged. But people only notice the one who do the damaged and not the ones who don't do any damage cos there's no way to tell they have been there.

In reply to stephen Rowley: Plus Greenlanes are roads and as such 4*4 users pay to use them via there road tax enuf said.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward: Alright grandad, chill out.

In reply to fiveknuckle: You're right, sorry I don't feel as relaxed as passing on a trashed world to my grandkids as I should. We can always get another one.

In reply to plexiglass_nick: A bit of tire slashing is what is called for...

In reply to tom r: Somewhat extreme I fear.

This is a step in the right direction.

http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/news/article/yorkshire-green-lanes-ban-for-mot...

In reply to mattsccm:

1 4x4 across the causway does more damage to the physical environment of the moor than ALL the climbers and walkers who use the moor that day combined. The only reason that I can't say the same about the biological environment is the number of dogs walked on the moor.

That is the fundermental problem, that a small number of 4x4's are doing a very large amount of damage.

In reply to plexiglass_nick: There's also the contradiction between a national park as a place for peaceful recreation and enjoyment of the natural environment and the noise created by using vehicles away from roads. Filling in a few potholes doesn't compensate for this. The majority of people who go to places like Stanage do so to enjoy some tranquility.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

quote from uk off roaders forum

"does any one know what the mad little ant type fellows hanging from stanage edge are actually doing? are they bird watchers? or just climbers doing it for kicks?"

hmmmm...i was up there climbing at the weekend and we couldnt figure out what they were doing either...this sort of clears it up...

x

In reply to mattsccm:

A brilliant bit of logic. My second hand bit of artillery is no worse for the environment than a thousand 4x4s. I'm off the shell the f*ck out of the National Parks and a few nature reserves for a laugh..

In reply to plexiglass_nick: yes its called green laning and the right to roam. The track is likely to be a RURP or green lane and is legally accessable by 4x4... BE VERY CAREFULL WHAT YOU SAY HERE YOU WILL UPSET A MOTHER AND FATHER OF A VERY WELL POLICED COMMUNITY THAT CARES AND RESPECTS OUR BEAUTIFUL OFFROAD AREAS.

If you want to learn more, search for LROI on the net or any diffock.com

In reply to Ridge:


of course you could shell the 4x4s - kinda like that carbon neutrality scheme, if you dont get your quota you have to plant some trees.

In reply to Chris Rose:
well the random upper casing convinced me.
the link between right to roam and driving 4x4 admittedly has me stumped but the careful use of capitalisation convinced me.

has your exclamation mark key broken though? could do with some

In reply to stewart murray:

"CLIMB WHEN YOU ARE READY"

"CLIMBING"

"WHAT?"

"C L I M B I N G!"

"W H A T?"

"C L I M B I N G!!!"

In reply to woolsack: With hindsight it's a bit obvious but ... you don't really like climbers or climbing very much, do you?

In reply to Rob Exile Ward: care to elaborate on this pearl of your wisdom?