UKC

Scottish Natural Heritage is trying to survey the Scottish wildcat population:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/7240908.stm

Ever seen one? I once saw one on Mull crossing a forestry track up near Loch Frisa.

Anyway, here's the form:
http://www.naiadecology.co.uk/form.php

In reply to Touching Centauri: Mine's a bit wild

In reply to Touching Centauri:It's not exactly true that the wild cat has been extinct in England & Wales for 150 years. When I was a kid there was one had a litter in a hay barn in a field in Cumbria. The farmer didn't use the barn 'till they had left.

In reply to D.Musgrave:

Feral house cat rather than wild cat(as in the distinct species)?

In reply to D.Musgrave: Was that an actual wild cat though, or just a feral one?

In reply to Touching Centauri:

I saw a few in the Highland Wildlife park in Kincraig last October. Not sure if that counts.

I'm fairly sure that I saw one while out running one day last year. The stripy tail is a bit of a giveaway.

In reply to Touching Centauri: It was a proper wild one. It was identified by RSPCA man.

In reply to Touching Centauri:
Saw what I thought was one in Glen Clova a few years ago near to the howffe, or at least it looked like the ones they used to have in Camperdown animal park (awful place that it is). Only a fleeting glance though so could be wrong.

Stuart

In reply to Touching Centauri:

Jolly elusive creatures.

But, now that snares have not been banned, would it not be easier just to measure the snare density and record the number of wildcats caught then extrapolate up from there?

<btw - I don't like cats, I'm allergic>

In reply to Touching Centauri: Pretty sure we saw one on road from lochnagar parking, was about 11 pm, and it ran next to the car for a while before diappearing through fence into trees.

Also saw bloody big cat crossing road by trees on road from Tomintoul to Lecht.

In reply to Touching Centauri:

Years back there was one (genuine Wild Cat - tuty ears, fat tail, the lot) up in the woodland near Craig Phadraig Hospital (Inverness). Local photographer and I spent 8 hours squashed in a 'hide' hoping to photograph it. In preparing to abandon the task we turned around and siscovered the cat was actually watching us. God knows how long it had been there - but it seemed quite settled. More than can be said for us.

In reply to Touching Centauri:

Can anyone explain to me why people refer to them as Scottish wild cats when they used to be found all over the UK. ALso the same speices of cat is also found across europe and into parts of asia??? I've never understood the Scottish connection. Anyone know why??

In reply to Anonymous:


Their accents...They Purrrrrrrrr.....

In reply to Anonymous: Presumably because you only get them in Scotland now (in the UK).

In reply to Touching Centauri:

Maybe your right, maybe it is just to do with the fact that the last UK populations are in Scotland.

In reply to Anonymous: They havent been in the rest of the UK for many, many years. When people started cataloguing species, wildcats were only found in Scotland, hence 'Scottish Wildcat'. In other parts of its range its just called 'wildcat'.

In reply to Touching Centauri: on a snowy day in the beacons in 1994, i was the first up and across the tops - there was a trail of large cat paws al the way from the monument, up corn du, pen y fan and down as far as windy gap... they were the only prints there. have always wondered what kind of cat made them... took some photos but the paws didn't show up.

In reply to Removed User:

Cheers, good answer.

In reply to Removed User: The species was lost from England and Wales by 1880 according to a paper I've just dug up. It also reckons that early taxonomists thought the Scottish wildcat was a subspecies of the European one.

In reply to Touching Centauri: With such as disjunct distribution I wouldn't be at all surprised if it turned out to be a sub-spp TC. I just hope it survives long enough for us to get an answer! Its not a full species in its own right so its not like we would lose our version of Iberian lynx if it went. Its more akin to the situation in the Russian Far East with Amur leopard which is a sub-species of Common leopard. However the Russians are putting a lot of effort into conserving Amur leopard (and Amur tiger) and I think we should maybe pay a bit more attention to our own wildcat. Its not very good shouting at other countries to save their species if we casually let ours go down the pan. The big problem is that in order to give the beastie a fighting chance we would have to eradicate all feral cats and somehow greatly reduce the numbers of pet cats within the wildcat range. I cant see cat owners agreeing with a policy like that!

In reply to Removed User: I'd agree I hate domestic cats!

In reply to Touching Centauri:

I thought they hunted entirly diffrent species?

Saw a nature program on them a while back where the cat was hunting rabbits.

The rabbits looked tiny compared with the cat. For some reason your eye assumed the cat was normal size and the rabbit small not the other way around.

There are lots of wildcats on Mull although not as many as there used to be I think.

Wildcats are very good at staying out of people's way but it's pretty easy to see where they've been if you know what to look for.

In reply to Gareth T: It's more to do with stopping breeding between wild cats and feral cats.

"Scottish Wildcats interbreed with feral (i.e. living in the wild) domestic cats. Indeed, this is one of the main threats to their continued existence as a distinct species."

In reply to Touching Centauri:

I thought distinct species couldn't interbreed? Mixed-race cats seem to be the main threat to the natives...

In reply to thomasadixon: Hmm, that's the traditional view of a species. It falls apart though for all sorts of reasons.

Example, two island species. Are they different species? There's no chance of them naturally meeting and mating so you don't know. You might be able to get them to breed in artificial circumstances (ie. in a lab) but that isn't natural and doesn't really prove anything.

It gets very confusing!

In reply to Touching Centauri: And anyway, wildcats and domestic cats are the same species.

Wildcat is Felis silvestris (various subspecies) and the domestic cat is Felis silvestris catus.

In reply to Touching Centauri:

I am sure there were some round Mardale in the 50s, along with Pine Martins. Not heard of them since.

This article is a good read about all UK mammals being at risk. Says here that new laws are needed to protect the wild cat as it getting impossible to say whether a cat is a true wild cat or not. Says the Law should be changed to include the cat by its colouring so to include all living wild tabby's.


http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/extinction-beckons-for-britains-we...

In reply to niggle:

'There are lots of wildcats on Mull although not as many as there used to be I think'

Are there wildcats on mull?
In the last wildcat census carried out in the mid 80s there were no occupied 10km squares recorded on the island.
Do you know if mull was included in this survey?

Cheers

Graeme Cook

In reply to graemecook:

there's a map of occupied squares on the original link

In reply to graemecook: Seems to me a fair few people have seen them there.

In reply to Touching Centauri:

Do you know of many sightings from creditable witnesses?

In reply to graemecook: Depends if I count myself as credible!

In reply to graemecook: I suspect they are cats that are wild rather than the species wild cat. The map on link in the OP doesn't even have suspected sightings on Mull

In reply to graemecook:


Wasn't even aware of a survey having been carried out!

I've certainly seen wildcats and trace of them since then and occupants of our house in the south of the island certainly report seeing them fairly regularly.

In reply to MG:


Oh well that must be right then. Everyone knows that only animals reported on web sites exist.

In reply to MG: No, it doesn't but maybe Mull wasn't sampled. There are plenty of google links reckoning wildcats are to be found on Mull, but none from any reliable organisations.

It's been years since I was there, so can't remember what any of the nature reserves have to say on the matter.

In reply to Touching Centauri:

Are you sure it was a wildcat then?
If you are, and Mull was surveyed in the mid 1980s, then that's big news, you should definately tell SNH.
Personally I'm sceptical.

Not meaning to be rude, but a big moggie can look alot like a wildcat.

Graeme Cook

In reply to niggle:

where are you on the island? do the locals of mull think there are wildcats there (as opposed to feral cats)?

In reply to niggle:

I have heard (rumour really) that many cats on the West coast are at most crosses between reall wild cats and feral domestic cats. This resulted when many people left the islands and their domestic cats got left behind. It seems unlikely that a major survey missed out on recording wild cats on Mull if there are as abundant as you think.

In reply to graemecook: No, I'm not sure. It was a brief encounter with a very large tabby cat.

I've filled in the form in my OP. So should anyone else who has seen what could be a wildcat in the last 5 years. The form asks about various characters, and whether the cat was likely to be a wildcat or a feral one.

In reply to graemecook:


Of course you are. You've already reached your conclusions without investigating all the evidence. You've set yourself up as an expert and now you feel you have to defend your position.


Ah, the "you're stupid" defence.

I've been visiting Mull for 30 years. My family are from there and several members lived there. I've seen wildcats dozens of times in fact I think I'd be right in saying every member of my family has.


It's only big news if you know almost nothing about Mull and didn't bother even asking before you made up your mind.

In reply to graemecook:


I'm not on the island. I own a house in the south but I've seen wildcats around the house as well as in the south-east above gorrie's leap and in the central northern area between ben more and balnahard.

Of course, being as you're an expert on the geography and ecology of Mull, you'll know all of those places well enough to definatively say there are no wildcats there, right?

In reply to MG:

Wow, another expert on the wildlife of Mull!

What a surprise to meet two on the same forum. Tell me, which part of the island are your family from? Have you been down to the south end, especially around tor mor and burg? You must know the island very well to be so sure that there are not and have never recently been wildcats there!

In reply to niggle:

hey man, chill out, my mind's not made up - i just have my opinion about what i think's going on, i'm no expert

look - i don't even know if SNH survey the island back in the mid 80s

I certainly wasn't accusing anyone of being stupid - but it's very easy to confuse wildcats and domestic ferals

what do the local farmers say about wildcats?

'It's only big news if you know almost nothing about Mull and didn't bother even asking before you made up your mind.'

My original post was a question, also just after posting that I e-mailed the same question to the scottish wildcat association and to SNH

once again, calm down, i was only asking

graeme cook

In reply to graemecook: Seems to me that this book might help:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Survey+of+the+status+and+distribution+o...

Websites for cottages, B&Bs, etc on the island frequently mention wildcats.

In reply to Touching Centauri:

'No, I'm not sure. It was a brief encounter with a very large tabby cat.'

I've been wondering that - how do you think SNH are going to collate all the information they collect, in light of all the confusion about seperating wildcat sightings and big domesting cat sightings?

Sorry man, i wasn't trying to turn your thread into a slagging match

In reply to graemecook: Presumably they will investigate the ones of dubious identify in locations that wildcats aren't expected. Maybe forms of certain identity from experts will be taken at face value.

Surveying any species is a tricky business, especially something as secretive as a wildcat.

In reply to graemecook:


You mean crofters.

The answer is not much to me. If you know as much about wildcats as you claim, you'll know that they stay well away from people if they can. You'll also know that even a really big wildcat would pose little threat to most livestock.

I dare say just like here some people will have seen them and some won't. I haven't done a survey and only know about the cats because firstly I've seen them and secondly through small incidents like a family of polecats which camped out on a crofter's land in the mid 80s (actually I'm not sure why I'm telling you that, you'll probably say that there are no polecats on Mull either).


For you, maybe. but hopefully it's becoming apparent to you that not everyone's experience of wildcats is as limited as yours.

In reply to Touching Centauri:


As do several of the local history books we keep in our cottage.

In reply to Touching Centauri:

hey man,
was looking at this -

http://www.scottishwildcats.co.uk/sightings.html

look at the map bit

as evidence goes, i know it's pretty crap - but there aren't any on mull

graeme cook

In reply to graemecook:

saying that, it does look like the west coast coverage might be pretty crap

In reply to graemecook:

I was intrigued about this so I phoned my father.

He says to tell you, "eh? yes there are wildcats on Mull".

If you want to scour one whole web page for dots indicating "possible" wildcats and conclude that no such creature exists, go ahead. it says absolutely nothing about the distribution of wildcats and everything about the agenda you're pursuing.

I'd just like to add: as I said earlier on another thread, this is what amazes me about UKC. No matter how self-explanatory or obvious what you post is, there's always an idiot who's willing to take exactly the opposite position and defend it to the death.

Amazing.

In reply to graemecook: The map also shows none on Ardnamurchan - a known hotspot for wildcats.

In reply to niggle:

did you get out of the wrong side of bed this morning or something?
I'm just saying don't you think it's wierd that the scottish wildcat census doesn't have any mull sightings?
why would a scottish census not include mull?
despite what you say - there's alot of confusion about seperating wildcat sightings from domestic cat sightings - not helped by the crap, brief views that people usually get.
if there are wildcats on mull then brilliant

graeme cook

In reply to Touching Centauri:

True - i have my doubts about that sightings map
was just pointing out that that, again, mull comes up blank

In reply to graemecook:


Well according to your "excellent" single source on their site, there are no sightings in at least 99% of Scotland, so no it doesn't really surprise me.

And you still haven't detailed the extensive experience of Mull which enables you to rant so "knowledgeably" on the subject.


Again, do us all the favour of not assuming that everyone finds identifying wildcats as utterly baffling as you do.

In reply to niggle:

'Well according to your "excellent" single source on their site, there are no sightings in at least 99% of Scotland, so no it doesn't really surprise me.'

The SNH census has them over most of the highlands of scotland - just not mull -

I'll say again that i'm no expert - i'm just intrigued by the hole in the census.

Neither my experience of wildcats, nor mull, is extensive. I've been to the island a few times, and i've seen cats in the hills a few times (never could be 100% that they were wildcats though - despite that i do know what to look for and have a good pair of binoculars)

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what this SNH survey work says about wildcats on mull. You should definately tell them bout your sightings.

All the best niggle,
it wasn't anything personal,

if SNH have got it wrong - you tell them,

graeme cook

In reply to niggle:


I've been reading the last few posts with interest and just wonder what is your background with identifying a TRUE wild cat? Only aksing as if you search the web/read books etc there are plenty of reports on the cats asking for the Laws to be changed to include protection of cats with the Tabby like markings to protect the gene pool. If the so called experts are finding it difficult to identify the species what makes you think that what you know as the True wild cat species is infact a genuine wild cat and not some sort of hybrid?? Just interested thats all.

In reply to Anonymous:


Wildcats are pretty distinctive. Go see them at kincraig wildlife park and you'll pretty quickly see that for yourself.

In reply to graemecook:


Here's a quick summary of this thread:

"I saw a wildcat on Mull"

"There aren't any wildcats on Mull"

"I've seen lots of wildcats on Mull too"

"There aren't any wildcats on Mull"

"My father's seen them and so have all my family and many of my friends"

"There aren't any wildcats on Mull"

"The local histories mention them extensively"

"For the last time! There aren't any wildcats on Mull! There's a web page! With a map! And there are no dots on Mull! So there aren't any wildcats on Mull!"


It's very clear that you have an agenda and you're sticking to it no matter what. If the SNH survey says there are no wildcats on Mull I'll be very happy. The cats are a troubled species and are best left alone by meddling f*ckwits.

In reply to niggle:

http://www.isle.of.mull.com/wildlife.htm

from that link attracting tourists to mull:

'Being an island it has to be said that certain wildlife species are not to be found here, such as the Pine Marten and the Scottish Wildcat, but that can make for an excuse to take the 30 minute ferry crossing to The Ardnamurchan Peninsula which is the most westerly point on the British mainland.'

In reply to niggle:


Telling apart a true wildcat from a tabby is practically impossible in the field. The only thing you can say for certain is that there are cats on Mull.

I've been to Mull because my clan used to own it.

In reply to graemecook:

And?

For many years SNH's position was that there were no white tailed sea eagles on Mull either, despite locals taking tourists on trips to see them every day.

In reply to Removed User:


That raises an interesting point.

If, as you and mr cook seem to think, wildcats are almost impossible to identify in the wild, how do you imagine SNH are planing to conduct a census of them?

Indeed, what makes you so sure they exist at all?

In reply to Removed User:

'there are cats on Mull.'

wildcats?

In reply to graemecook:
>

Interestingly other B&B and cottage sites reckon pine martens are on Mull. Again, quite elusive things to track down (well, apart from when they come and feed at houses!).

I was recently watching some TV program with Iolo Williams who was hunting for them in Wales. Nobody is really sure if there are any here or not!

In reply to niggle: I have said to SNH that I have doubts as to whether anybody can really tell. And the point you raise Niggle as to whether they exist at all is, in my opinion, entirely valid. I think genetic studies may show a way forward but not field signs.

In reply to Touching Centauri: Ah, well I can confidently tell you TC that there are definitely pine marten in Wales. 100% sure, had the droppings analysed and they are definitely the real thing. Theres not many of them mind, but they are there. There should be another weekend survey happening soon in your area. Keep your eyes peeled or enquire with Snowdonia NP. I'll see you there!

In reply to graemecook: Well with people not believing if they are real or not they're probably no very happy.

In reply to Removed User:


Which would of course make every specimen, photograph, study, guidebook entry, film, documentary and written account of the species totally wrong.

What a truly extraordinary position to take.

Wow.

In reply to Removed User: Ooh, now I'm intrigued! Where abouts are they? Towards southern Snowdonia? I've seen them in Torridon and Ardnamurchan when they came down to the garden to eat bread and jam which was quite an experience.

In reply to niggle: It could if you limit your scope to Scottish wildcats (they are found in other countries) in the last 30 years. There may well be some genuine wildcats out there but proving it is another matter. See, thats the thing about ecology, we have to deal in shades of grey and keep an open mind. I personally hope that some are left but I know if I see one in the field I'll never be able to be 100% certain thats its a true wildcat and not a hybrid.

In reply to Touching Centauri: Well Mr proto-MSc Ecologist, why dont you join the search and find out? Go on, you know you want to! You know what they say about our field of study TC? One mans shit is another mans Phd. We could be calling you Dr Centauri in a few years if you find some good stuff!

In reply to Removed User:

What about the summit of Ben Nevis?

In reply to heather monkey: It probably saw you and went 'ooh, look a monkey up Ben Nevis'.

Pine marten is unlikely on top of the Ben but not impossible. As much as I think you're a lovely person and completely above board, I'd need more proof.

In reply to Removed User: Yeah, it sounds interesting. Drop me an email if there's any surveying or anything I could take part in.

In reply to Removed User:

if there are wildcats on mull, why do you think there's this widespread opinion that they are absent from the island?

I'm not contradicting you, I'm just interested in your opinion about how people got the idea that there were no wildcats on mull

are the population densities very low? or did they long ago get irrevocably muddled with the islands pets?

The idea that there's no such thing as a scottish wildcat - it'll be fascinating to see what this work throws up. Know of any good population genetics studies about these animals?

cheers,

Graeme Cook

In reply to Removed User:
This is the best I can do by way of proof:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7304924@N06/2281876457/

There was more than one btw.

In reply to heather monkey: I'm impressed, did you carry that stuffed PM all the way up the Ben?

In reply to heather monkey:

I'm gobsmacked!!!!

What on EARTH were a bunch of pine martens doing on top of the ben?

Awesome!!!

In reply to graemecook: Graeme, I dont know if there are or aren't. What I do know from talking to the bloke that knows more about them than anybody else, is that its damn near impossible to be certain in the field that you are looking at a true wildcat.

The population density of most cats is fairly low. They are not (apart from lions) the most sociable of species. I know some genetics have been done but I dont know the results sorry.

In reply to niggle: Its stuffed Niggle, you can practically see Morv hiding behind that big stone!

Pine Martens are very inquisitive and opportunistic. They will probably have stumbled on some food left by walkers one time and come up from time to time for a scavenge. Cracking photie though.

In reply to heather monkey:

I've got to admit it does look a little rigid to say the least lol...not doubting you though.

I've witnessed 2 Pine Martens in the wild one on the Cairngorm ski road and the other in Algonquin (Canada) fantastic creatures. The Algonquin encounter was awesome I got to within 10 feet of him before he realised he had been rumbled snififng around the food packs and ran off pretty sharpish.

I also encounter what I believe to be called a Fisher though they also belong to the same family as the Pine Marten. Evil looking creatures the noise it was making was something out of a horror film give him his due though he managed to get on top of food packs whilst they were hanging 15ft up a tree, crafty little bugger!!

In reply to Alan M: What the hell is a fisher?

In reply to Touching Centauri: Biiiig mustelid. Cool! I've never seen one although I have been bitten by a wolverine which was not something I wish to repeat.

In reply to Touching Centauri:

http://home.mcn.net/%7Ewtu/fisher.html

In reply to Touching Centauri: I remember seeing one when i was a kid Near Bridge of Cally, Perthshire. Never seen one since.

In reply to Alan M: Wow, never even heard of those.

Seen plenty of mink in Scotland, and stoats and weasels and otters. Just need to tick off the polecat now.

In reply to heather monkey: That is superb!

In reply to Removed User:

Just got a reply from the mull ranger service

They don't know of any wildcats on the island


Ring Ouzel: this guy you know, next time you see him you should ask him about wildcats on mull.


On another note - the only pine martin i've ever seen was near aberfoyle - it was a cool looking beast.

In reply to niggle:


Why do you have to be so unpleasant and aggressive about everything? I think most people on here would be delighted if there were wild cats on Mull. However, given the consesnsus of experts it seems unlikely. Shouting that you have a house on Mull so you must be right hardly adds anything.

In reply to graemecook: Guess what I saw was probably just a feral cat. Cheers for the info.

In reply to graemecook: I will Graeme, thanks. Off home, hope you all have a good weekend!
Cheers!

In reply to Touching Centauri:

I agree awesome creatures. I think I got very lucky that day. Algonquin is an awesome place hearing the Wolves whilst sitting around the camp fire is a sound I'll never forget.

Polecats were are you based??? Most Cheshire woodlands offer a good chance of spotting the little beastie (So I've been told). They also have a captive relase programme in Cheshire at the moment contact the nature conservation organisations for the area and see if they will let you attend a release day. Worth a try!!

In reply to Removed User: Some interesting stuff here

http://www.scottishwildcats.co.uk/

In reply to Alan M: Didn't know that. Used to spend a lot of time wandering in Cheshire, although I never encountered any.

In reply to Alan M:

That explains a lot; we have a pack of cards at home with cats on the back and I was wondering what on earth a 'fisher cat' was and why it had a totally different Latin name from all the other cards (well they're all different of course, but you know what I mean).

jcm

In reply to Touching Centauri:

The scottish wildcat association just got back to me,

here's what they had to say:

"You're venturing into a somewhat debated topic!

Classic common sense suggests a wildcat wouldn't swim all the way to Mull or stowaway on a ferry, however I;ve had sightings there too, one in particular that was hard to discount, it's possible that rehomed hybrid cats (a lot go through Cats Protection) could have brought the genes there, but at different times in the wildcat's evolution there have been various land and ice bridges around so the cats may simply have lasted all this time, supplemented by the occasional feral domestic.

That said, there are still people arguing for wildcats on Ireland, they turn up in folklore and rumour all the time, and if they made it there then Mull's certainly not very far to go at all.

So, it'll remain an area of uncertainty until someone produces a decent photo I'm afraid!"

hey niggle - do you have any photos, or are there any in the books you were mentioning?

graeme cook

In reply to Touching Centauri:

I've just done a quick search on google and came up with this link about the Polecat project in Cheshire. Might be worth giving them a call or an email.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/manchester/content/articles/2007/06/14/140607_polecat_...

Good luck

In reply to Removed User:

You know what I'd be threatening to do with it if it was stuffed, don't you? :-P

And Niggle - eating dropped sandwiches etc mainly.

In reply to graemecook: Wow, awesome! Cheers for the info. I might be up in Mull over summer so maybe I'll go on the prowl myself!

In reply to Touching Centauri:

Hi again, SNH have got back to me about the status of the wildcat on mull. The island wasn't surveyed.
Here's what they say:

'As far as we know, there are no historical or archaeological records of wildcats from Mull. All of the authoritative sources say that they have never been recorded there. For example, Harvie Brown and Buckley's 1892 "Fauna of Argyll and the Inner Hebrides" says of the wildcat "totally absent from the isles". More modern authors agree (e.g. Corbet & Harris (1991) "Handbook of British Mammals"; Yalden (1999) "History of British Mammals"). For this reason, Mull was excluded from the 1983-87 survey. However, since the launch of the latest wildcat surveyhttp://www.snh.org.uk/speciesactionframework/latestnews/wildcat.asp we have received a couple of reports of apparent 'wildcats' from Mull. These have been passed to the survey co-ordinator, Adrian Davis, to follow up. One potential explanation is that these are domestic cats which have gone feral and , over the course of generations, reverted to a more wild-type appearance. We may never know for sure...'

I've e-mailed them the locations of niggles' sightings plus the sighting you mention in your OP.

All the best,

Graeme Cook

In reply to niggle:

actually niggle if you're reading this could you provide me with some more info about your sightings and I'll pass it on

cheers,

graeme cook