UKC

/ Second referendum, here we come

Please Register as a New User in order to reply to this topic.
john arran - on 11 Jan 2018

This could be the one and only time I'll ever agree with Nigel Farage. Do you think May will now be forced to listen and to agree to a second referendum once the full horrors of the impending deal are known?

Chris the Tall - on 11 Jan 2018
In reply to john arran:

Maybe we should wait until the terms of Brexit are known, and then we have the choice between Hard Brexit (no deal), Soft Brexit (agreed deal) or No Brexit (stay in the EU). 

Using the good old British first past the post system obviously

 

Crewey-Rob on 11 Jan 2018
In reply to john arran:

It’s the only sensible thing I’ve ever heard him say. I suspect it more of a disclaimer so he can wash his hands of the impending chaos than a statement of any real intent.

tom_in_edinburgh - on 11 Jan 2018
In reply to john arran:

> Do you think May will now be forced to listen and to agree to a second referendum once the full horrors of the impending deal are known?

I think you couldn't make this sh*t up if you tried.  If Corbyn has any sense he'll jump on the bandwagon for a laugh and leave May isolated and holding the bags.

I think Farage and the other vote Leave guy are losing their nerve and starting to consider how much hatred would be directed against them after Brexit when people start losing their jobs.   They are probably also thinking life was more fun and they were making a bunch more money when they had their moment in the sun during the referendum and that losing a second referendum and making a career out of blaming the establishment and EU for it wouldn't be such a bad outcome.

 

Post edited at 17:00
Xharlie on 11 Jan 2018
In reply to Crewey-Rob:

I got the impression that he was bragging that Leave would definitely win a second referendum and that that would end all debate. From that perspective, he's not being sensible at all -- he's playing politics.

He's wrong, too.

  1. The bus won't work twice. Neither will the poster.
  2. We've now seen that all their baseless "promises" (the EU will bend over; countries knocking down the door etc. etc.) don't hold water. Use Leave proponents foresaw this, of course, but there can now be no doubt that these promises have any credibility, even amongst the most devoted Remain voters.
  3. Nobody will be complacent, should a second referendum be held. I didn't vote in the first one because I wasn't registered to vote, remotely, and I didn't believe it necessary to travel all the way back to the UK just to sort out the various bureaucratic nonsense that I'd have to clear up before I could get registered. Were a second referendum to be held, I would definitely bother to sort this out. I'm sure that a lot of people would feel the same.
  4. David Cameron is gone, now, so all those idiots who voted Leave because they opposed Cameron can't use that reason any more.
  5. The first referendum was pre-Trump. The world has changed, fake news is more open to scrutiny and people are generally more savvy and more aware of crazy ideas, I think.

There are probably a dozen more reasons why Remain would have gained strength -- the margin was very narrow, remember -- and I cannot think of even one reason why Leave would have more support, now, than then.

BnB - on 11 Jan 2018
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> I think Farage and the other vote Leave guy are losing their nerve and starting to consider how much hatred would be directed against them after Brexit when people start losing their jobs.   They are probably also thinking life was more fun and they were making a bunch more money when they had their moment in the sun during the referendum and that losing a second referendum and making a career out of blaming the establishment and EU for it wouldn't be such a bad outcome. >  

I don't think this is the reason at all. It looks to me that Farage is smelling a different coffee and realising that Brexit will end up the cobbled together compromise that it was always going to be. From half in to half out. As it won't deliver what his constituency demands, he needs to distance himself from the end result.

Post edited at 17:40
mountain.martin - on 11 Jan 2018
In reply to john arran:

I tend to agree with xharlie, that the vote would go the other way next time. But I was wrong before.

Farage is saying he thinks the leave vote will increase, maybe we are both only listening to our like-minded friends.

 

 

RomTheBear on 11 Jan 2018
In reply to BnB:

> I don't think this is the reason at all. It looks to me that Farage is smelling a different coffee and realising that Brexit will end up the cobbled together compromise that it was always going to be. From half in to half out. As it won't deliver what his constituency demands, he needs to distance himself from the end result.

So far most acknowledge the end of free movement, no customs union, and no single market. Pretty much everything Mr Farage wanted, really, if not slightly more in fact !Far from half in to half out, it's more something in the order of 80% in to 80% out.

It seems to me the reason is more trivial : he marketed himself as the populist hero of English anti EU exceptionalism to build his following. He accidentally got what he wanted and the Tories stole his gig, leaving him, well, pretty much useless.

So he has to find new windmills to keep existing...  

Post edited at 19:59
john arran - on 11 Jan 2018
In reply to mountain.martin:

> Farage is saying he thinks the leave vote will increase, maybe we are both only listening to our like-minded friends.

Maybe, but I'd like to think I was also listening to repeated and consistent polls too. Where do you think he might be getting his expectations from, if it isn't just political posturing based on false premises?  

 

snoop6060 - on 11 Jan 2018
In reply to RomTheBear:

Farage knows 100% there will not be a second referendum. He is just saying this to look rational. Or maybe  stay relevant and get some press. Absolute c'nt basically. 

john arran - on 11 Jan 2018
In reply to snoop6060:

Agreed but for your first statement, which is defeatist nonsense.

Eric9Points - on 11 Jan 2018
In reply to john arran:

If we end up with a shit deal at the end of the negotiations and Parliament votes it down then there will be a lot of pressure to either hold another referendum or a General election.

 

At the end of the day, whatever you may think of our current Prime Minister she must see that it is in the best interests of the country not to leave the EU with no deal. That would be a disaster and something she could not support. If that is where we end up then I can only see those two options open to her.

 

https://www.camecon.com/news/economic-impact-brexit-starkly-revealed-new-report/

Post edited at 21:41
RomTheBear on 11 Jan 2018
In reply to snoop6060:

> Farage knows 100% there will not be a second referendum. He is just saying this to look rational. Or maybe  stay relevant and get some press. Absolute c'nt basically. 

Exactly. Nothing more than desperate attention seeking.

pasbury on 11 Jan 2018
In reply to snoop6060:

> Farage knows 100% there will not be a second referendum. He is just saying this to look rational. Or maybe  stay relevant and get some press. Absolute c'nt basically. 

you cannot possibly be certain that another referendum will not happen. It maybe doubtful but surely not impossible.

What result or effect it would have is beyond prediction, it's chaos theory now.

Tom V - on 12 Jan 2018
In reply to snoop6060:

If you want something as a matter of principle and a long time opponent comes round to agreeing with your objective, does that make him a c'unt  ?

Post edited at 00:16
captain paranoia - on 12 Jan 2018
In reply to john arran:

Maybe he's found some small print in his pension agreement that says his £70k PA stops if Britain leaves the EU...

Big Ger - on 12 Jan 2018
In reply to john arran:

Love it, Farage asks for something that the rewhiners have been bleating about since the first vote, and suddenly he's a c*nt.

Have I mentioned at all that I think  that that insulting people with different views to you doesn't help win the debate?

Have I mentioned that left wingers seem to think using sexist terms is ok if they use them against people they do not like?

I may have mentioned both those points before, I think.

 

Post edited at 05:16
snoop6060 - on 12 Jan 2018
In reply to Big Ger:

He's not suddenly a c'nt, he has always been one. This just doesn't change that. He is just after attention as usual. And who says I am left wing? 

Post edited at 06:43
doz generale - on 12 Jan 2018
In reply to john arran:

I fear that a second referendum would just throw up a similar result. Most leavers don't seem to give a hoot about the consequences and I genuinely believe that the only thing that will shift public opinion would be a period of suffering the consequences or a seismic shift in press bias.     

Xharlie on 12 Jan 2018
In reply to Eric9Points:

No way. They'll just polish the turd and sell it with spin and lies. Whatever the deal is, in reality, there's no way it will be a "shit deal" when the public are landed with it and there's no way there will be another referendum as a consequence.

zebidee - on 12 Jan 2018
In reply to Xharlie:

> No way. They'll just polish the turd and sell it with spin and lies. Whatever the deal is, in reality, there's no way it will be a "shit deal" when the public are landed with it and there's no way there will be another referendum as a consequence.


Completely agree! Just look at all the spin about how Europe are punishing the UK for this or that in the negotiations when actually things have been laid out openly and in advance by the EU.

snoop6060 - on 12 Jan 2018

In reply to:

I see this morning he's changed his mind and decided now he doesn't want one. Another day, another headline for Nigel. 

krikoman - on 12 Jan 2018
In reply to Big Ger:

> Have I mentioned that left wingers seem to think using sexist terms is ok if they use them against people they do not like?

Really? Is it only left wingers you object to using the word c*nt, or is it because it's sexist?

What about Conservative women calling people c*nts? Is that OK?

Farage is a prime example of why the word c*nt was invented. There's no suddenly about it.

I do question his reasoning behind his sudden change though, there's more to it than he's letting on. It's not because they'll win again, for sure.

Post edited at 10:58
Andy Hardy on 12 Jan 2018
In reply to krikoman:

If you notice Farage doesn't say "we should have a 2nd ref" he says "I am coming round to the idea of a 2nd ref"

He is all about getting himself noticed again, nothing more.

Nevis-the-cat - on 12 Jan 2018
In reply to Big Ger:

I know plenty of right wingers who think Farage is a suppurating wound on the arse tube of humanity. 

snoop6060 - on 12 Jan 2018
In reply to krikoman:

So people actually think using the insult c**t is sexist?

What about bellend, dicknose, cock womble, ball bag, tit rifle and the classic: you're a dick?

Post edited at 12:22
Stuart en Écosse - on 12 Jan 2018
In reply to Nevis-the-cat:

> I know plenty of right wingers who think Farage is a suppurating wound on the arse tube of humanity. 


Quite, but then it's no surprise that right-wingers have such a generous and rose tinted view of Farage.

RomTheBear on 12 Jan 2018
In reply to Nevis-the-cat:

> I know plenty of right wingers who think Farage is a suppurating wound on the arse tube of humanity. 

What I find weird is that many say they do think that, but in fact is there any major difference between his policies and those of the conservative party ? 

I mean if you look at the 2017 Tory manifesto you’ll find plenty of policies comparable to those in the 2015 UKIP manifesto.

oldie - on 12 Jan 2018
In reply to Chris the Tall:

> Maybe we should wait until the terms of Brexit are known, and then we have the choice between Hard Brexit (no deal), Soft Brexit (agreed deal) or No Brexit (stay in the EU). Using the good old British first past the post system obviously. <

Hopefully an alternative vote/second ballot to avoid complete chaos!   

 

Post edited at 15:00
oldie - on 12 Jan 2018
In reply to snoop6060:

> Farage knows 100% there will not be a second referendum. He is just saying this to look rational. Or maybe  stay relevant and get some press. <

Possibly. However he may also be genuinely worried that we will have a "bad" deal which means that he will be held partly responsible for landing us in a situation where we have neither a good outlook nor achieved the supposed benefits of regained sovereignty. 

I'd like a second referendum because the first has been so devisive (a second leave vote once the future outlook was clearer would mean that more remainers would accept it), and because it is ludicrous to say that the same proportion would still support leaving (changed opinions is one reason we have general elections every few years).

I actually think that slightly more  would now vote to leave, but only guessing.

Any referendum would have to give a genuine choice ie include remain, not just deal or no deal.

 

Big Ger - on 12 Jan 2018
In reply to krikoman:

> Really? Is it only left wingers you object to using the word c*nt, or is it because it's sexist?

No.

> What about Conservative women calling people c*nts? Is that OK?

No.

> Farage is a prime example of why the word c*nt was invented. There's no suddenly about it.

LOL!! Another classic example of the hypocrisy of some on the left.

> I do question his reasoning behind his sudden change though, there's more to it than he's letting on. It's not because they'll win again, for sure.

He wants another referendum, because, outside of the little and shrinking rewhiner bubble, more and more are realising that the undemocratic EU is bad for the UK.

 

John Stainforth - on 12 Jan 2018
In reply to Big Ger:

...whereas you presume your own bubble is growing. Well, good luck! (But you'd better watch it in case it pops - unless you've already succumbed to the toxic fumes within).

Steve Hayward - on 12 Jan 2018
In reply to krikoman:

I'm playing safe with 'C***'. 

You can slip in your own pejorative, while enjoying the dichotomy of Farage being simultaneously a C*ck and a C*nt.

Big Ger - on 12 Jan 2018
In reply to John Stainforth:

> ...whereas you presume your own bubble is growing. Well, good luck! (But you'd better watch it in case it pops - unless you've already succumbed to the toxic fumes within).

Yawn...

Big Ger - on 12 Jan 2018
In reply to john arran:

He's after his pay packet

 

> Nigel Farage has had his MEP's salary docked by £35,500 after claims he misspent EU funds, the BBC understands. The ex-UKIP leader was investigated by the European Parliament over claims his office assistant had not been working on EU matters. Half of his salary has been withheld to recoup the money the Parliament says it is owed. The move was condemned by a spokesman for the European Parliament group which Mr Farage heads.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42669293

Post edited at 23:27
John Stainforth - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to Big Ger:

...ing gulf

Jim C - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to Eric9Points:

> If we end up with a shit deal at the end of the negotiations and Parliament votes it down then there will be a lot of pressure to either hold another referendum or a General election.

The government could come back with a cake and eat it deal, and Parliament would still vote it down, because they just don't want out of the EU no matter what their constituents think. 

Eric9Points - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to Jim C:

> > If we end up with a shit deal at the end of the negotiations and Parliament votes it down then there will be a lot of pressure to either hold another referendum or a General election.

> The government could come back with a cake and eat it deal, and Parliament would still vote it down, because they just don't want out of the EU no matter what their constituents think. 


Really? What evidence do you have?

pec on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to krikoman:

> What about Conservative women calling people c*nts? Is that OK?

But do they really? Obviously I can't say its never happened but I've never heard of it but there are countless examples of lefties hurling that kind of abuse at Tories, especially Corbyn's momentum chums. It seems that hate is in their DNA.

Only yesterday we had this story

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tory-lord-swears-debate-baroness-jenkin-explicit-language-quotes-a8154621.html

"During the election campaign in June the Ealing Central and Acton Conservative candidate was met daily outside her home by a large group of Momentum and Labour activists yelling at her. . . . 'f*cking Tory c***'.

"Her activists and volunteers were routinely spat at. They told an Asian activist that she deserved to have her throat slit and be in the ground for being a Conservative and much more - especially on social media."

Lovely lefties ?

 

 

john yates - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to john arran:

No. I thought you’d accepted the first result. I’m also sure you have said referenda are not the way to sort this issue. And you are still peddling the lie that we face disaster. In agreeing with Nigel - a man with no power and waning influence - you seem a sad figure clutching at straws. 

john arran - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to john yates:

Yes of course. You talk so much sense.

john yates - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to john arran:

At last we agree on something x

john yates - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to john arran:

At last we agree on something 

Pete Pozman - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to john arran:

To be honest I'm terrified of  a second referendum.  Leave will get an even bigger majority which will embed us deeper in the crap. I think we'll only realise what it means to leave the EU/EEA/EFTA (because it seems we have to go for the full monty) when we finally find our level; that's up to our necks in it. 

Myths about empire and the second world war will lose their potency when we we have well and truly shafted ourselves.

I heard a bloke on "Any Answers" saying that the EU was behaving like a petulant child. How Leavers get to that I have no idea but maybe it's time we took the medicine (which we are prescribing for ourselves) and then in about 20 years time we might  get a realistic idea of how we actually measure up. About the same as the England football team, I should think. 

krikoman - on 08:59 Mon
In reply to pec:

> But do they really? Obviously I can't say its never happened but I've never heard of it but there are countless examples of lefties hurling that kind of abuse at Tories, especially Corbyn's momentum chums. It seems that hate is in their DNA.

Or and it might just be a long shot, that Labour represent the disenfranchised, the people at the bottom of the ladder as it where, the more poorly educated, the people who might be more likely to swear in everyday life. It might be a bit easier not to swear when your not living hand to mouth.

I suggest you compare these actions with huntsman, the countryside alliance, or people in the army, for DNA samples.

Obviously calling someone a c*nt is not the nicest of things, but I know plenty of women who use the word, so it hardly sexist.

Once upon a time, and it's within my lifetime, blokes wouldn't swear in front of women, I've seen people being barred from clubs and fight break out over swearing. today it just as likely for women to swear as man, so let's not get all precious over a word, especially if you use the word yourself.

What might be more appropriate is to consider why as simple word is more injurious than another, why is c*nt more offensive than prick, or wanker. They are after all only words.

Surely we should be more concerned and words like, kill, murder, etc.

No one should be spat at or abused for doing their job, but let's be sensible about it!

Post edited at 09:00
jkarran - on 09:52 Mon
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> If you notice Farage doesn't say "we should have a 2nd ref" he says "I am coming round to the idea of a 2nd ref"

> He is all about getting himself noticed again, nothing more.

New leadership bid in the offing? He's said himself he's skint so I guess he'll need a new job now his EU wages have been docked

jk

jkarran - on 10:02 Mon
In reply to Jim C:

> > If we end up with a shit deal at the end of the negotiations and Parliament votes it down then there will be a lot of pressure to either hold another referendum or a General election.

> The government could come back with a cake and eat it deal...

Except of course they can't unless they keep the one we have.

> ...and Parliament would still vote it down, because they just don't want out of the EU no matter what their constituents think. 

Nonsense, there is no way a majority in parliament (the commons at least) will vote against the last expressed wish of the electorate which is IMO why a second referendum is now more likely than not as public opinion shifts and the unicorns evaporate.

jk

 

mullermn - on 11:01 Mon
In reply to jkarran:

Looks like the leading Brexiters are all jumping on the bandwagon now that someone’s blinked first:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-would-reportedly-rather-remain-in-eu-than-accept-a-soft-brexit_uk_5a5c7d26e4b0fcbc3a11b186

 

 

Rob Exile Ward on 11:11 Mon
In reply to mullermn:

So he's trying to find a way back! 

stubbed on 11:11 Mon
In reply to Xharlie:

I dunno. My husband voted remain last time but reckon he would vote leave this time, unfortunately.

 

 

krikoman - on 11:54 Mon
pec on 19:59 Mon
In reply to krikoman:

> Or and it might just be a long shot, that Labour represent the disenfranchised, the people at the bottom of the ladder as it where, the more poorly educated, the people who might be more likely to swear in everyday life. It might be a bit easier not to swear when your not living hand to mouth.

etc etc. >

 

Talk about avoiding the issue, you couldn't have put more straw men in a post if that was the challenge I'd set you, because you know at heart that you're trying to defend the indefensible.

 

Lets be clear, its not the people at the bottom of the ladder standing outside people's houses screaming “you f*cking c*nt” at them in front of their young children and even if it was it's still inexcusable. Its a hard core of mostly educated, middle class, student activist types doing this, who as you point out, are as likely to swear as anybody these days.

 

So some women use the “c” word so its not sexist? Well some black people use the “n” word so its not racist then? But really that's just one of your straw men, the real issue is that we're talking about a bunch of self righteous hooligans screaming in people's faces and spitting at them in the most intimidating way imaginable and making death threats (I see you totally ignore the bit about calling for the Asian woman's throat to be slit) for having the audacity to belong to a different political party from themselves. And this is only one of countless examples.

 

Momentum with its component of hard left thugs have infiltrated a potential party of government and that's the issue here. They are at the core of the Corbyn project and he's either unable or unwilling to do anything about it and all his henchman McDonnell can do is make mealy mouthed excuses for tacitly condoning this sort of thing.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/john-mcdonnell-branded-truly-evil-by-tory-cabinet-minister-for-attack-on-esther-mcvey_uk_5a5b533fe4b03c4189666d6f

 

That's when he's not making jokes about things which ought to be a stain on any self respecting organisation.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/25/laura-kuenssberg-bodyguard-abuse-female-political-journalist-abuse

This behaviour has no place in civilised politics, the fact that within mainstream parties Labour has a near monopoly on this sort of thing shows that the party is rotten and unfit for government under Corbyn's leadership because once they've got power those voices of hate aren't going to get quieter.

 

Its not even as if pedalling this hate filled bile does anything to improve their chances of electoral success, any rational person sees it for what it is, it even alienates many on their own side

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/jessie-thompson/left-wing-people_b_4941582.html

 

but sadly the voices of reason have lost control of the Labour Party at the moment.

 

Big Ger - on 22:00 Mon
In reply to krikoman:

> Or and it might just be a long shot, that Labour represent the disenfranchised, the people at the bottom of the ladder as it where, the more poorly educated, the people who might be more likely to swear in everyday life. It might be a bit easier not to swear when your not living hand to mouth.

It's a long time since they represented the working class, nowadays they just patronise the underclass.

 

> Obviously calling someone a c*nt is not the nicest of things, but I know plenty of women who use the word, so it hardly sexist.

LOL!!

 

 

krikoman - on 10:36 Tue
In reply to pec:

If you keep believing the things in the Huff as facts then I think you might be in trouble.

krikoman - on 10:39 Tue
In reply to Big Ger:

> It's a long time since they represented the working class, nowadays they just patronise the underclass.

I disagree, but don't they deserve representation too

> LOL!!

It was tongue in check, but no more sexist than calling someone a cock, or dickhead. OR god forbid a burk

 

pec on 21:49 Tue
In reply to krikoman:

> If you keep believing the things in the Huff as facts then I think you might be in trouble. >

Don't shoot the messenger, I chose a lefty rag like the Huff because I thought it would appeal to your politcal leanings but its the same story in the Grauniad

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/25/mcdonnell-defends-calling-female-mp-stain-of-inhumanity-esther-mcvey

Or if you prefer a right wing rag, the Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/01/14/andrea-leadsom-labels-john-mcdonnell-truly-evil-esther-mcvey/

Its the same story in any number of places

http://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/new-tory-party-chairman-urges-activists-of-all-ages-to-fight-labour-online-11364243200836

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/esther-mcvey-shadow-chancellor-john-11936281

How many more links would you like (there's any number you could care to wish for out there) before you'll address the real issue insead of flippantly avoiding the subject because you know what's going on in Momentum is a disgrace to politics?

Or perhaps you think threats, violence and intimidation is ok? After all, its your niche in the political spectrum where all this hate comes from and you've got form for posting that sort of thing on here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

johncoxmysteriously - on 21:56 Tue
In reply to pec:

I have no time for McDonnell, but he didn’t call McVey a stain on humanity, he said that he hoped the electorate would remove the stain of inhumanity from the body politic. And nor did he call for her to be lynched, he said that her policies had caused such anger that at a meeting he had attended there had been calls from the audience for her to be lynched. It’s a typical nonsense story, the sort of made-up journalism and knee-jerk bollocks from the likes of Leadsom and Cooper which is, to coin a phrase, a stain on politics.

 

jcm

 

Post edited at 22:03
johncoxmysteriously - on 22:03 Tue
In reply to pec:

McVey, on the other hand, definitely said that it was right and proper that people were being forced to use food banks.

 

jcm

pec on 23:14 Tue
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

McDonnell seems to have a habit of making outrageous comments when "just quoting what others have said" or "being taken out of context" and always having some mealy mouthed excuse for not being to able to condemn them. He seems to spend a lot of time at meetings where this sort of stuff goes on, hardly the way a potential future chancellor should be preparing for government.

Take a listen to what he said

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-42682854/audio-of-john-mcdonnell-s-2014-lynching-remark

The comments are an absolute disgrace, perhaps he is just quoting someone else but he's not exactly making any effort to criticse that sort of inflammatory language or distance himself from it. He has subsequently refused to condemn the comments and defended similar comments he has made himself even when told he should do by members of his own party.

http://www.itv.com/news/2016-09-25/mcdonnell-refuses-to-apologise-for-extreme-attackon-mcvey/

Seems to me that like krikoman, your trying to make excuses for the indefensible.

johncoxmysteriously - on 01:28 Wed
In reply to pec:

I don't agree with you, but you can think what you like. The fact is that he didn't call for her to be lynched, as reported in various media outlets and, IIRC, as the ludicrous Leadsom suggested.

 

jcm

French Erick - on 09:01 Wed

 

> but sadly the voices of reason have lost control of the Labour Party at the moment.

I agree that that they are bad eggs in all baskets, being left or right, there will always be a core of "extreme" people. The hard left is as ugly as the hard right.

Swearing has a beneficial effect on the mood... you ought to keep it to your private circles and swear amongst like-minded folks. I swear a lot whilst climbing because 1) I'm at my limit, 2) as a teacher I can't swear at work ever...so it's satisfying and 3)I quite enjoy swearing within the reason.

Sadly, the voice of reason was never part of party politic. Entrenched people on both sides with sometimes widely differing views (funnily enough sometimes not, but posturing for climbing hierarchy helps ignoring similarities) are simply leaving rationality behind because they want to make a point... making a point calls for bias and has an agenda. Reason should be constant- I am no philosopher so maybe someone on here can take this argument apart.

I am not wanting to make too many assumptions Pec, but you seem to be on the right. I will save you making any. I am a centre left guy. I couldn't vote for the ref and, whilst I think Brexit is bad, I wouldn't say I am a "remoaner". Hopefully next big vote (referendum/general election) I will be able to make my voice heard as a British citizen as I am almost there.

Overall, I dislike that brand of " chip on the shoulder working class background but now well off lefties" almost as much as "silver spoon in mouth supposedly self-made rightie who thinks anyone less rich is lazy". This is however my opinion and I am entitled to it. I think Farage is an "enculé" but equally that Corbyn is a "putain d'abruti" PS: I don'y want my swear words to be edited so excuse my French.

Bogwalloper - on 09:09 Wed
In reply to pec:

> McDonnell seems to have a habit of making outrageous comments when "just quoting what others have said" or "being taken out of context" and always having some mealy mouthed excuse for not being to able to condemn them. He seems to spend a lot of time at meetings where this sort of stuff goes on, hardly the way a potential future chancellor should be preparing for government.

> Take a listen to what he said

> The comments are an absolute disgrace, perhaps he is just quoting someone else but he's not exactly making any effort to criticse that sort of inflammatory language or distance himself from it. He has subsequently refused to condemn the comments and defended similar comments he has made himself even when told he should do by members of his own party.

> Seems to me that like krikoman, your trying to make excuses for the indefensible.


Blah blah blah bla blah. Can you point me to some Labour / McDonnell / Momentum policies which might lead to poor and disabled people committing suicide?

W

BnB - on 09:25 Wed
In reply to Bogwalloper:

> Blah blah blah bla blah. Can you point me to some Labour / McDonnell / Momentum policies which might lead to poor and disabled people committing suicide?

Any policies which threaten employment opportunities could lead to heightened suicide risks. Mishandling of the economy through ill-advised tax rises or an anti-business agenda are quantifiable risks implicit in Labour's last manifesto.

Bogwalloper - on 09:50 Wed
In reply to BnB:

> Any policies which threaten employment opportunities could lead to heightened suicide risks. Mishandling of the economy through ill-advised tax rises or an anti-business agenda are quantifiable risks implicit in Labour's last manifesto.


But more chance of there still being a  welfare state and NHS to catch people caught out.

W

The New NickB - on 09:57 Wed
In reply to BnB:

> Any policies which threaten employment opportunities could lead to heightened suicide risks. Mishandling of the economy through ill-advised tax rises or an anti-business agenda are quantifiable risks implicit in Labour's last manifesto.

Mainstream social democratic policies, with a good track record of working in modern democracies. 

BnB - on 10:06 Wed
In reply to Bogwalloper:

> But more chance of there still being a  welfare state and NHS to catch people caught out.

There is no evidence of the latter being a policy priority in Labour's manifesto. Plenty of noise, but spending commitments that barely exceeded those in the Tory proposals. I'm surprised you're not aware of this.

Given the true state of the NHS, if Labour were genuinely that concerned, you'd think they would have taken the trouble to understand what needed to be done. After all, it's just another thing that the same tax rises on a tiny portion of the electorate could have paid for.

Post edited at 10:18
BnB - on 10:10 Wed
In reply to The New NickB:

> Mainstream social democratic policies, with a good track record of working in modern democracies. 

Amongst similar democracies, the combination of anti-austerity and soak the rich is only really evident in France recently. It was a disaster with youth unemployment hitting 25%. If there were no suicides, no riots, no gang killings as a consequence I'd be more than surprised.

The New NickB - on 10:17 Wed
In reply to BnB:

I think we both know I’m not talking about France. Regurgitating propaganda isn’t really what I expect from you.

BnB - on 10:20 Wed
In reply to The New NickB:

It's not propaganda it's my own observations of events. Besides, why then did Corbyn come across as Hollande mark 2 and not Stefan Löfven?

Lets just stick to suicide shall we? I wasn't defending Tory policy. I was pointing out that different policies have negative impacts on different sectors of the population and that Labour's proposals entail risks just as the Tory's ones do.

Post edited at 10:25
krikoman - on 11:34 Wed
In reply to pec:

> Seems to me that like krikoman, your trying to make excuses for the indefensible.

Not making excuses for anyone, as in if read my post above, "No one should be spat at or abused for doing their job,.." which you seem to have glossed over. It would be nice though  to be dealing in facts rather than bullshit that get's reported as facts.

The continued attempts at character assassination of JC and McDonnell keep getting regurgitated on such regular basis.

The problem with this is that true issues become clouded by the false accusations, it similar to Israel calling everyone anti-Semites when really what they are is anti-Israeli government. They choose not to make the distinction, because it suits their agenda,

 

The New NickB - on 11:43 Wed
In reply to BnB:

The BMJ study puts austerity deaths at 120,000. Some would argue that is conservative.

I remember saying on here in 2010 that the austerity measure would lead to tens of thousands of deaths. I was roundly condemned for being alarmist and melodramatic. It seems that I was wrong, I massively underestimated the impact.

Its despirately sad.

Probably off topic, but I’ve been thinking about this for a while.

Post edited at 11:44
BnB - on 15:46 Wed
In reply to The New NickB:

Yes it is sad. Very much so.

But no one believing you at the time, when you understood the social impact better than most, isn't legitimate reason for you not to take me seriously in respect of an area I understand well enough for the government to consult with me several times a year. 

The New NickB - on 17:35 Wed
In reply to BnB:

> Yes it is sad. Very much so.

> But no one believing you at the time, when you understood the social impact better than most, isn't legitimate reason for you not to take me seriously in respect of an area I understand well enough for the government to consult with me several times a year. 

I’ve lost you completely I’m afraid. What area of expertise are you talking about?

Having checked the whole thread assuming I had missed something, I am even more confused.

Furthermore, I admit to probably being off topic. I’m not calling to authority, I’m expressing sadness and frustration.

Post edited at 17:56
captain paranoia - on 17:53 Wed
In reply to BnB:

> isn't legitimate reason for you not to take me seriously in respect of an area I understand well enough for the government to consult with me several times a year.

So it's all your fault, eh...?

BnB - on 18:00 Wed
In reply to The New NickB:

> I’ve lost you completely I’m afraid. What area of expertise are you talking about?

> Having checked the whole thread assuming I had missed something, I am even more confused.

Not your fault. I hadn't explained in detail although you must have pondered what business owners do all day that might affect their current and potential employees. The government consults with me (and plenty of others) regularly on the effect of policy (employment and corporate taxes, investment, apprenticeship schemes, Brexit etc) on business behaviour. That's not my job, which is to run and grow companies, it's just a side effect of my knowledge and experience.

The behaviour of businesses in turn affects how we all feel. That was my original point and you chose to pour scorn on my comments, which is your right, and I'm standing up for what I believe, which is my right. I don't think there's much point in carrying on the argument, since I'm not in any way disagreeing with your point about mental health. Meanwhile you can choose whether or not to embrace my view that a Corbyn/McDonnell (more the latter in my view) government would bring hardship "to the many and not just the few".

 

 

 

Post edited at 18:06
BnB - on 18:05 Wed
In reply to captain paranoia:

> So it's all your fault, eh...?

Yes, I suppose it must be* although it only goes back as far as meeting the Chancellor in 1997 so don't pin Thatcherism on me ;-)

 

*It's not obvious that they actually listen. They just want to show they've consulted.

The New NickB - on 18:07 Wed
In reply to BnB:

Pour scorn is an interesting turn of phrase and certainly doesn’t reflect my contribution to this thread. 

Corbyn’s policies are mainstream social democratic policies. That is a statement of fact. Your response in tabloid language didn’t really suggest a measured approach to policy evaluation, even then I didn’t “pour scorn”. I disagreed then by my own admission went off topic.


Please Register as a New User in order to reply to this topic.