UKC

We’re viewing some council allotments tomorrow as we’ve finally made it to the top of the waiting list. I think they show you round a selection of what will be coming available and you get to choose which to go for. 

What things should we be considering? So far we have been thinking: 

Size - don’t want anything too big/unmanageable.
Proximity to on-site water source/taps. 
Aspect / how much sun will it get. 
Anything already there (e.g. shed, fruit tree). 
How overgrown / messy it is - i.e. how much initial work to get it into a state where we can plant things.

Any other tips and advice would be welcomed. 

They need to be used/cultivated rather than for pure recreation if that makes any particular difference. 

In reply to James Malloch:

Size: the bigger the better. Just cover the bits you can’t use for now (not in carpet). you don’t want to do all the work and realise it’s too small - which it will be if it is actually quite small. Mine is 500 sq meters which sounds big but it’s not once you get a grip of it. 
 

Other than that, if it’s full of glass, metal, shit just bite the bullet and get a skip. Clear the lot and start from a blank canvas. It takes a few years to get a grip of even a good plot so don’t get overwhelmed. 

Start by making a nice place to sit and chill out and then work from there. 

If it’s too far from your house tho then it’s gonna be a headache. 

grow plenty of flowers too. 

In reply to snoop6060:

Shed, you forget to mention the shed. You've got to have a shed.

In reply to snoop6060:

Thanks for the reply. It’s 3/4 mins walk from the house and I walk past with the dog every day on one of the walks so should be nice and easy in that regard.

I know that since Covid the demand rose significantly, so they clamped down quite hard on people who didn’t make use of their plots properly (but I don’t know if that means leaving parts of it to be developed in future years, or just letting it get overgrown). 

I’ll have a chat with the guy tomorrow to see what the rules are around that. Especially with it being so hot and dry right now - things are likely to be hugely overgrown and hard to dig up/out. Also I suspect we have missed a lot of the main planting season which would delay some cultivation.

I’m happy to put some money in to make it nice and make life easier (e.g. skips or tools). We looked at moving house but the prices (and mortgage costs) mean we are putting it off. So since we’ve just got a terrace with no garden, we’re hoping we can make this a nice place to be.

Definitely want plenty of flowers as well. 

In reply to James Malloch:

I'd be looking for more than allittle...

In reply to James Malloch:

If it’s that close than take it unless you can genuinely find some strong reason not to. It will likely look sky high with weeds given the time of year and although you get some stuff in for autumn / winter I wouldn’t be thinking about that. I’d be using this season to just sort it out. 

Clear all the crap, work out what weeds are there. Any really tricky ones ( I.e bind weed) then consider a herbicide as a one time only thing. I didn’t, regret it, as you’ll never ever be able to dig that stuff out. And you’ll be dealing with it forever if you don’t sort it whilst you have the chance. If I could go back and all that. 

other than that it’s enjoyable even just sorting a vacant plot out. Especially if you can walk to it. Mine is opposite my house and that makes a huge difference. 

In reply to James Malloch:

A nice open aspect, so not shaded by trees. A shed and / or greenhouse is always welcome, you may have to buy off the previous owner of the plot, but as they are not easy to move usually for a small cost. Access to a water supply is good.

I prefer an allotment which has not been divided up too much or full of raised beds. Small fruit bushes you can dig up and relocate if needed, a large fruit tree you'll be stuck with.

Weed wise there are some you will just have to live with, horse tail everyone says is a nightmare, but it is easy enough to manage. If it's not been worked for a bit you may have some stubborn weeds, but nothing a spade or fork won't sort out.

Getting one now I'd look at just getting a workable section ready asap this year and plant up, plenty of time to get the rest of the plot ready for next year.

In reply to craig h:

Id defo agree on horsetail. You won’t get rid of it but it doesn’t really shade anything and can clearly live off almost zero nutrients or water so presumably doesn’t actually steal much. And it’s easy to pull as doesn’t grow that fast. At least compared to some. Pabbay was absolutely carpeted in the stuff when we went. 

In reply to James Malloch:

Water

Max unobstructed southern exposure

Low level of persistent weeds, dandelion, thistle etc..

Not a potential wet winter hollow

Compost area

Shed, green house, water barrel etc..as bonuses.

It's not too late if you're quick. Salads, peas etc.. will crop quickly, even carrots just have baby autumn carrots. Scour the garden centres you might still find trays of young plants of most type ready to go, not as cheap as seeds, but still cheaper than supermarket veg.

In reply to James Malloch:

Webcam for catching scrotes stealing your veg. Have you seen the prices in the shops? Shocking!

In reply to Lankyman:

Indeed, I'd say an allotment where you can only walk in and out, ours has a track down the middle and occasionally sees white flatbed ford van traffic along it, permanently borrowing anything not bolted down, one drives the other two jump out. 

Obviously if the OP has hopes with the local leek shows etc.. then a little secrecy doesn't harm there either! 

In reply to James Malloch:

Location.... Allotments need regular attention both watering in dry periods and after planting, plus during the harvesting season, so you want one close to home or on your daily commute.

In reply to snoop6060:

That is huge. I wouldn't like to have a plot that big. I just don't have the time for that. At our site most plots are 120 m2 or so, and a few are double that. ie standard half-plot and full-plot sizes. 

I have a half-plot and find that it it is enough to indulge various interests such as the eternal turf war between my wife and myself, without being overwhelming when our energy and enthusiasm flags, as it does from time to time over the years. As the Chair of the site, I don't want to get one of those letters from the committee.....

On that issue, we have clamped down on people who don't tend their plots, but if someone new came  along and clearly wanted to make a go of it we would be only too glad to let them get on with it, whatever the rules say precisely about X% being cultivated. Most likely, they would be offered help from all directions. That said, it is amazing what transformation some new plot holders have wrought in a short time over the tips they inherited.

In reply to mbh:

On ours, if someone has let theirs go it generally gets a bit wild before they give in and let someone else take over, so often we rustle up a few volunteers and have a couple of hours surge at it to help the new start. Less weed seeds blowing around and more chance the newbie makes a thing of it. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

Yes, we do that too. Helps everyone in the end.

In reply to James Malloch:

Neighbours. Allotments are great places for making friends.

In reply to twentytwoangrymen:

Near essential. Watering each others plants when away. 

In reply to James Malloch:

I've no experience with allotments. I read through the other replies and no one mentioned soil type. If you've a choice of location and soil types vary, then perhaps this should enter into your calculations ?

Also parking near by? Humping sacks of compost from the garden centre gets old if two far from the car to the allotment ?

Best of luck with it !!

In reply to James Malloch:

Most important thing is the soil....you'd be surprised how much it can be different over a site! Ideally you want a good loam soil that some old guy has looked after for years with lots of organic homemade fertilizer....everything else on an allotment can be fixed with grafting but poor soil can't!!!

In reply to abr1966:

I'd disagree most soil can be improved, if you've got too much shade you're stuffed when trying to growing sun loving crops. Even with those less critical if you've an open site getting the full arc of sun, stuff really grows fast, compared with those that only get it after midday etc.. but these quirks are all the fun of the game. 

In reply to abr1966:

Of course soil can be improved it just takes a lot of time and a vast amount (multiple tonnes) of organic material to do it on the allotment scale. You can also remineralise it if you get a good soil test and know what you are missing. Again it takes time and quite a bit of money to do it properly as the organic minerals don’t come cheap. Neither does none organic fertiliser these days mind you.

Either way one thing to defo point out is that allotments are not a good route to cheap food. Better food yes, cheap food definitely not. 

In reply to snoop6060:

Year 1, no, the out lay for tools, pots etc adds up but you can often pick them up second hand.

Year 2 onwards, it's way cheaper, eat seasonally, pre growing seedlings at home, share seed packets with other growers, learn to pickle, freeze, make jam etc.. the key is growing what you like to eat and costs most, filling a plot with spuds and carrots, won't save very much compared to 10 varieties of veg you can make a good fresh salad with almost every day. It takes a little planning and a few errors to learn, but you can easily get kilos of veg per £2,3,4 packet of seeds. 

In reply to James Malloch: a couple of mates have them and as you mentioned water is key .  at the moment the allotment crew in one of the villages near me have joined several hose pies together to the nearest house without a meter as many of their water capture containers are empty . 

In reply to ExiledScot:

Well yeah but you are missing out the cost of your time. Even if you pay yourself £1 an hr it’s way more expensive than bags of tasteless crap from the Aldi. But of course that’s not the point and the time is free as it’s more of a hobby. Which is really my point. If you want an allotment because you think it’d be fun regardless of what you end up growing then that’s the best attitude to go in with. If you just want a route to cheap food then don’t do it, get down the Aldi .

In reply to James Malloch:

Hedgehogs. Place will just always seem a bit sad without them.

In reply to mike123:

Most around here have mains water in each avenue. Admittedly it’s a constant cause of bickering at the AGM but I’ve genuinely no idea how you’d survive without a tap. I had 5 full IBCs of rain water start of spring and now they are all gone. It hasn’t rained in months here. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

Definitely agree about the light and good sun as a close second but really improving poor soil can take a very long time. I had 3 allotments over the best part of 20 years and on the site the bottom end was poor draining heavy clay soil. The turnover of people on those plots was huge as basically after a year or two lots became disheartened and gave up....their yields were poor and it was just non stop graft for poor results....ok for potatoes but not much else.

In reply to snoop6060:

You're missing the point if you're costing your own time! 

How do you value the exercise, the mental and physical health improvement, the community etc... it's unimaginably better than a trip to the cheapest supermarket. 

Time: the trick once it's established is keeping it going. Convenience is key, 30mins morning and evening near daily, is way more productive veg wise than 7hrs all day Sunday etc..

In reply to James Malloch:

If you know your weeds that could be a good guide to select. Don't hesitate to snap up a plot shoulder high in nettles ! Nettles are the most +ve nitrogen indicator and not so diff to get rid of. Some resident comfrey would be useful too.

In reply to James Malloch:

Topsoil was a major drawback at first for ours! There was just a highly acidic subsoil layer then rock. The neighbouring bowling club had stripped off the topsoil for the green!  Had to import it from council park green waste and elsewhere. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

Indeeed, that’s why I always advise people to get one as close to the house as possible. Ideally so it’s a short walk. It’s make a huge difference and allows you to go multiple times daily even if it’s just for a quick 10-15mins on your lunch break or whatever. This is the difference between those who keep it up and those that don’t on our place. 25 min drive to your plot is just gonna be really tough and you will need a lot of spare time to keep that up. 

In reply to James Malloch:

Thanks again for all of the advice!

Regarding soil, any tips on what to look for? As in are there any obvious indicators which we might be able to spot (complete novices here)?

In reply to snoop6060:

100 times this. If there was anything like horsetail, even in neighbouring plots, I'd run away. My parents had a big garden which was beautiful but plagued by this stuff and there was no getting rid of it.

In reply to James Malloch:

It would be useful to know the depth of topsoil. Also what the subsoil is like with regards to how well it drains. You can improve things up to a point by digging sand into the soil but if you're on smooth clay subsoil you might need to think about putting in a soakaway, assuming there is somewhere for the water to go. See if the topsoil has a healthy population of worms in it, that's a good sign.

We have a flower bed which had poor lumpy soil on clay. A couple of years of digging compost (from our own veg peelings, grass and leaves) in has transformed it. Lots of worms and much healthier plants.

In reply to 65:

You can live with horsetail, I moved plots about 6 years ago to one with horsetail present. You soon learn what the roots look like when digging and removing the ferny heads as they appear, keeps it well in check. The use of a herbicide doesn't really work with horsetail as the root system can be meters underground and will just continue to spread from adjacent plots. It is a survivor as it's been around since before the dinosaurs.

I'm happy growing my veg with it on my plot. Weeds like couch grass, bind weed and the dreaded Japanese Knot weed would be more of a concern. Weeds like docks, dandelions, creeping buttercups, brambles and nettles just need a bit of hard work to get them out.   

In reply to craig h:

Creeping buttercup is oddly satisfying to pull out of the ground . It’s a bloody pain tho. 

In reply to James Malloch:

As you are going to look today, I would suggest speaking to other allotment holders and asking them what soil is on site, how easy it is to cultivate/grow stuff, etc, would be more effective than trying to learn quickly. It would be hard to learn anything detailed to assess soil in a short time - I used to assess and grade soils. Speaking to others and ask them, what soil is here, can you double dig, what grows, what doesn’t, how wet does it get after rain and how quickly does it get to dry, does it pond, etc., do you know about allotment “x” (the one you are looking at) and how successful it was, will tell you more than trying to work through soil types and structure.

If you are willing to try yourself, take a spade, trowel, and some water for a quick assessment. Google first the range of soil types generally in your area and a google of soil types and their broad descriptions and characteristics.

How easy is it to put the spade in and how deep will tell you what it maybe like to cultivate. Get soil in you hands and what does it feel like and how does it handle dry and after wetting. Sand will be gritty and fall through your fingers and at opposite end clay will not and could be rock hard if dry and heavy lumpy to handle wet. Look out for a hard layer (pan) if you use a spade, any change in layers, and hopefully you will not find any obstructions within the first 18 inches. Ideally you want loam (maybe clay loam or sandy loam depending on rainfall and what you intend to grow) and as deep a topsoil layer as possible, but for allotments personally I would be looking for min of 12 -18 inches of reasonable soil type and structure for all round growing use.

Hope that is of some use.

In reply to James Malloch:

We recently gave up our allotment as it was shaded by two mature oaks on the south side. I'd fixed the drainage (it was underwater when I got it) and raised beds sorted the rather heavy clay soil. Some grit mixed in and a several tons of cow manure from the local farmer (costs were for a load - he didn't care how much you wanted). But there's nothing you can do to fix light. 

In reply to James Malloch:

We went to view the allotments yesterday and had 3 to choose from. 

First was a c.100sqm plot which had been used to home ducks for 10 years. Loads of sun and an old duck shed. Quite overgrown now. 

Second was c.150sqm plot which had been used for chickens for about 10 years. Amazing views over crookrise and Embsay. Not as much in spring/autumn due to trees but pretty much all day in summer. Quite overgrown now.

Third was one which had been used for years by an old lady who decided this year it was too much work.  Size is probably somewhere between the other two. South facing so gets lots of sun but has a bit more tree cover so some morning and evening shade. A bit overgrown after winter but not as bad as the others. It has a potting shed, another shed/greenhouse kind of thing and included all her spades, pots, water butts etc (which we don‘t have any of). All nicely divided up into beds, walkways around them, box structures for netting built over the beds. Has a bench, patio, compost area. Also has a tap inside the plot! 

We‘ve obviously gone for the third one - the lady had grown lots in the past and it‘s going to be so much less work, and money, to get started. The size is probably about right for us given we climb/run a lot so don‘t want it to overtake our life - a big part of it is to have some access to a garden space given we live in a terrace house. It should fit the bill perfectly. 

No idea on the soil but the beds are manageable enough so that even if we had to spend £200 quid on compost that would be fine (especially given the other savings). 

Thank you for all the advice. If there‘s anything we should do immediately (other than weeding etc) in terms of getting things ready to plant, advice would be much appreciated! Might not be the best time to start given the season and weather!

In reply to James Malloch:

The classic is plant potatoes - but too late now.

Find a friendly local farmer and get some manure (but make sure they haven't sprayed herbicide as it comes through and can affect sensitive crops). You can add as much cow manure as you like as it isn't as 'hot' as horse manure. Sow cover crops if nothing else. Will improve the soil and keep the weeds down. Enjoy!

In reply to James Malloch:

This is a really good sign. Bad plots get a high turnover of owners, whilst a plot that has been loved for years will hopefully avoid many of the issues others have warned about and offer good productivity. 

One huge tip I'd give now is to speak with other plot owners about what they find grows well. Soil type, aspect etc can all affect what works and it's always good for morale to have easy and reliable options to motivate you.

Initially pick just a few beds to use this year and try to keep the big weeds down elsewhere, buy in young plants (or taking any surplus seedlings neighbours offer you) and sowing salad veg. Then in autumn put your back into clearing and preparing for next year.

In reply to James Malloch:

A good scarecrow.

In reply to Cú Chullain:

somewhere deep enough to bury criminals who take public office call themselves politicians (a small but deeply corrupting subset)

In reply to wercat:

Well that escalated quickly

In reply to James Malloch:

I’d get some French beans and courgettes in.  Some of your allotment neighbours should have some spare plants available if you’re lucky.

In reply to Wimlands:

water close, a nice view, nice neighbours, away from the edge of the site or road, flat, good soil, an absence of nuisance plants: mare's tail, bind weed, knotweed, snowberry, absence of busybodies / committee members, a shed or place to put a shed, proximity to road/carpark for deliveries of shite etc, good positioning wrt the sun, the right amount of privacy, space for and position for trees, a bench, place for compost, security, depending on where your are and your ambitions: shelter, a absence or rubbish (asbestos, rubble, brick, foundations, glass, barbed wire etc etc)

In reply to James Malloch:

Half a year to plan - look upon it as a bonus and not as a loss. However, for any part you are not going to plant now*, I would seriously consider just sowing a green manure crop, or if not at least get some manure/compost and spread on top to leave through till late winter. Both will be beneficial for different reasons.

Green manure crop will help to not only put nutrients into the soil, keep drainage and soil open, feed soil organisms, etc., but will also give an indication by the way it grows if any part has some issues. Depending on the green manure sown you could harvest some for homemade fertiliser rather than just dig it in which will be a bonus of saving fert costs next year.

* It’s certainly not too late for lots of stuff though. Don’t know where you are or if weather conditions could support, but even a late plant of potatoes with the right variety could give a small crop for autumn/early winter. If not winter varieties of veg you are wishing. Again though any crop will give an indication of growth problem of any bed that you may wish to consider for future veg rotations.

Ideally if you could speak to the lady that had it you may learn what her rotation was, what she grew, what can be done and what wasn’t that good at growing. Remember, for example, if, say, she grew potatoes and had virus problems you may not want to grow potatoes for a few years, or worse had potato cyst nematode (eelworm), you don’t want to plant potatoes at all.

Have fun and enjoy; growing veg and having them fresh season is hard to beat.

In reply to James Malloch:

Get a soil analysis before you do anything otherwise you are just blindly floundering around.

In reply to jimtitt:

Or just look at neighbouring plots, ask the last owner, or throw some seedlings in and fix as you go. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

Well that's one way to waste part of your life.

Experienced farmers test their soil between every one to three years, they aren't stupid. If you are starting out on new (to you) land then several times a year is normal, it's cheaper than seed, plants and incorrectly fertilising.

In reply to James Malloch:

Before and after from the first few hours…

In reply to James Malloch:

Sold on that point alone!

If you crack on, potatoes planted in the next couple of weeks should come good in the autumn. You'll need to get ones which have been specifically cold stored to slow them down for planting this late.

Other than that, do whatever you can to get rid of seed bearing weeds now, as it'll make things easier in the long run. And have a good look at what everyone else is growing. They'll have figured out what does and doesn't work in your particular soil and microclimate.

In reply to James Malloch:

Apologies if I’ve missed a comment on this.  The allotment committee is important - if you have one that expects a higher level of maintenance and tidiness than you want to commit to, it could take the fun out of things.  Equally, you probably don’t want a pitch on an allotment that’s been allowed to fall in to a rancid state.

Beware those on Church of England land; as soon as planning permission for housing can be secured the land is getting sold to developers.

Edit: should have caught up on the thread; my advice is too late.  Good luck with your project!   You mentioned compost - we have an “Aerobin” thermally insulated hot composter.  Fed a mix of food waste (including small bones), weeds and the odd bit of shredded cardboard and watered occasionally we get plenty of solid and liquid compost; between this and the recycling bin we barely use our general rubbish bin.  

In reply to jimtitt:

they have 100plus m², not hectares. 

They can buy a cheap ph tester etc over time and tweak areas accordingly for growing better fruit, brassicas etc.. but I don't think they need to hire in an Agronomist or Cheerful Charlie. 

OP, I wouldn't get too carried away planting with masses of spuds, it's nice to have some of your own, especially new potatoes, but per kilo they are cheap in the shops, if your goal is about saving money. I'd plant 5-10m² absolute max in a 100-150m² plot. 

If your goal is more long term, I'd think about getting a fruit bush or two, plus some rhubarb started now ready for next year. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

If you eat lots of potatoes, grow lots. They get heavily sprayed at harvest time with some grim chemicals that kill off the foliage to make harvesting the tubers easier. Think I’d rather eat my own. They keep well too if you have a nice cool place to store them. And they are easy to grow which minimal pest pressure so that’s a bonus. They do take up a lot of room mind you. 

In reply to snoop6060:

>potatoes

Do you not find that on an allotment site they are vulnerable to blight? I've had a whole harvest ruined by that once and it seems to be a frequent issue at our site.

In reply to ExiledScot:

I'd never thought the RHS membership was concerned with the condition of 1000 acres of soy beans, more growing begonias. Which is why they (amongst others) offer soil analysis for 40 quid or so. Intensively used land like gardens and allotments are nearly always trace mineral depleted and have too much humus applied leading to some stuff doing well and others complete rubbish. The traditional gardeners answer is to give up planting the crops which do poorly, the intelligent gardener does something to correct the imbalance.

My sweet corn was always crap with the cobs incompletely developed whereas all the maize fields (there are lots) around were perfect, a soil test told me that fifty years of keeping chickens on the land had screwed the soil and a fivers worth of minerals cured the problem (and many others).

In reply to James Malloch:

If that's the state of the allotment, I'd just concentrate on getting it ready for next year, rather than trying to get something planted this. Do lots of prep work now, to reap the rewards in the future. 

I took on a new allotment a few years ago that the council had just turned over with a plough. One of six on the site. I planted up the first year after doing my ground work. Shed base, divided the plot up into three. Dug it all. The Brassicas failed completely and the site was riddled with Docs and mountains of stones. I spent the next year removing the stones and weeding out the Docs. But the prep work payed off. My soil was very heavy. So made two compost bins and took everything that was compostable from home down there and made as much compost as possible and bought manure as well. Get the ground right for crops first, and the rest becomes a little easier in the future.

It's hard work, but very enjoyable.

In reply to James Malloch:

What you need is agricultural quality UV doped black plastic to kill off those weeds. Clean without chemicals. It works best during the summer months.

In reply to mbh:

I don’t get it that much but predominantly grow second early types. I’ve had it at the very end of the season with my main crops but was warned by an old bloke there was a high chance of it so was already half way through digging them up  I know other folk who get it every year if it’s wet though. 

In reply to jimtitt:

Sounds like you’ve been reading Steve Solomon’s book. Heavy going that book, it’s good tho. 

In reply to James Malloch:

Good effort.

This website is useful for information and when to plant things, I'm Saddleworth so usually add a few weeks, even a month on what it recommends depending on the weather. It also has plent of advice and articles, plus recipes.  https://www.allotment-garden.org/garden-advice-month/fruit-vegetable-growin...

Currently away until next week, but will be still sowing beetroot seeds, early purple broccoli, swedes, climbing beans and salad veg when I'm back, mainly to fill spaces still empty on mine. As you have a greenhouse now you could even start some stuff off in there and plant out once they get established.

Had an allotment for over 20 years, but I will still go for a wander around mine to see what other people are growing, what is successful and get ideas.

It's also good to set aside an area for wild flowers like foxglove, borrage, comfrey and even plant some lupins and Delilah to encourage insects like bees, hoverflies and ladybirds, the latter 2 are great at pest control. 

Enjoy yourself, always found mine a great place just to escape to and switch off.

In reply to James Malloch:

Strim/tidy first?!

In reply to James Malloch:

Have a read about no dig stuff if you fancy doing something nice for the soil 😄

https://www.gardenersworld.com/how-to/grow-plants/no-dig-gardening-guide/

In reply to craig h:

Yes, I do that too. New people especially often bring lots of new ideas

In reply to Arms Cliff:

No dig is an unsustainable system, it relies on continously importing new soil.

In reply to jimtitt:

Compost or manure, not soil, massive difference as I’m sure you know. We seem to be doing ok with just what we produce from the kitchen and allotment turned into compost. 

In reply to Arms Cliff:

And slowly but surely the ph value is rising and those wonderful trace elements in your fresh veggies are being depleted.

In reply to jimtitt:

Unlike some of the other people you were berating higher up, we have a little science kit 😄 send me some info on the trace elements though, sounds interesting. 

In reply to jimtitt:

Eh ? did you mean greater acidity or greater alkali ? unqualified 'compost' cannot presume a change in pH. this is largely determined by base rock type and could be manipulated by large quantities of ammendments which would have to be fairly specific in mineral content to make change; a poorly aerated compost heap will generate acidity.

Otherwise I tend to agree with you 'not sustainable' - unless a chunk of your property makes appropriate volumes of material locally accessible.

I have a mate here in SW France who does no-dig. It involves bringing up to 2 tonnes of council-made compost and distributing annually on an area perhaps 200sq m; he's getting v obviously better results than I do, consistently

In reply to LeeWood:

The pH value rises i.e. it becomes alkaline, the usual cure is adding sulphur which is why you see farmers "yellow dusting" sometimes. It's a bit slow to have an effect. Commercial growers also acidify irrigation water.

Your friend is doing it correctly, commercial composts generally are mixing in wood products and so on which import and replace the material removed from the soil by cropping, if we actually shit in our allotments and were buried there then the cycle would be complete but as it is there is an inevitable loss of essential elements, traditionally we'd also use animal products such as dried blood, fish or bone meal and so on, only using compost from the cropped area doesn't cut it. Conceptually no-till relies on movement from the underlying soil upwards by worm and microbes, this kinda runs out after a while as they don't travel far. In no-till farming it's nescessary to deep plough every seven years or so to help the little guys along a bit.

Salt wash and so on are another hassle!

In reply to Arms Cliff:

Tell us how much surface are used for producing veg v producing compost ? Conversion of matter could benefit from a shredder, but if you are using a powered machine this would also have to be factored in to the sustainability equation

In reply to James Malloch:

If you can contact her, invite her to come down? She will be able to advise, and it will allow her to continue, at a lower effort, whilst giving you a hand.

Of course, you might not get on, and there may be issues of whose allotment it is now...

In reply to LeeWood:

tiny allotment only around 30 square m of beds. We have all the leaf litter and grass clippings we need that goes in with the kitchen waste and allotment cuttings and live in a rural setting so plenty of various animal manures readily available. No power in the process except elbow grease  

Understand this won't be the case for a lot of people in terms of access to compost etc. but there's a lot of plant material that just ends up in wheelie bins etc. that could be put to better use.

In reply to James Malloch:

A bit of an update (I’ve read through the messages but will reply to them properly tomorrow).

We have trimmed all the grasses back to really work out what we have. It was quite a big job but it uncovered some extra beds, gave us access to the compost heaps etc and work out how much crap/rubbish there is to take to the tip.

Turns out the plot is about 250sqm, and we’ve got maybe 40-50sqm of beds. Two seem ready to plant (all covered up with nice soil underneath), we’ve got three more de-weeded and dug over with manure.

We’ve decided to go without a proper plan and bought loads of young veg which our local garden centre had a late delivery of. Have sweetcorn, cabbage, cauliflower, some beans, peas, onions, spring onions, leek, golden beetroot, rhubarb and raspberry bushes.

We’re going to use the 4 beds we have for these, and also a small 5th one for a herb garden.

For the others we are going to de-weed, put plenty of manure in and plant a load of green manure to dig in in the autumn and then cover for next year.

If the crops fail then we will put down some more green manure in a few months and dig in in spring.

Then, in the meantime, we can try and make an actual plan for next year and work out what we really want. Get seeds ready, test soil if needed etc.

So far it’s hard but fun. It’s nice being out there at 10pm rather than watching TV…

Also, the dog bloody loves it!

In reply to James Malloch:

lots of slug hide-aways there !

In reply to LeeWood:

What are their favourite places? I guess its very dry but we’ve not seen any (yet!!!)

In reply to LeeWood:

There are 44 species of slugs in the UK, only a few are an issue to crops.

Most slugs only eat decaying vegetation, so as long as numbers aren't too high can be seen as a benefit. The leopard slug is probably the largest you'll see in the UK and does eat other slugs as well as decaying vegetation. It is known to pursue other slugs at a top speed of 15 centimetres (6 in) per minute.

In reply to James Malloch:

Bushy stuff with dark, damp earth beneath it. I once let a sedge grow to a great size on our plot and you could see the circle of destruction around it.

In reply to mbh:

Sure it was a sedge & not a trifid ?

In reply to Doug:

In my book of Grasses, Sedges, Rushes, Ferns  & Triffids of Britain & Northern Europe it says that mid-size triffids do not succumb easily to a determined attack with a fork and some elbow grease, so I am guessing sedge.

In reply to James Malloch:

beneath any object esp with ground contact

to be fair it appear you have lots of potentially useful objects on that plot

In reply to craig h:

isn't nature wonderful ! (and I mean that) but whatever the facts - I have spent prolonged sessions cutting up slugs festooned on growing potato or onion plants; I amuse myself by remarking on their climbing ability - tree slugs

conversely damage to healthy potato tubers in the ground is notorious; 1st the wireworm gets in , then the slugs, esp if near the surface OR not depending on how clumpy your soil. Earthing up with clumpy soil creates a maze of possibilities for molluscs

In reply to LeeWood:

Wriggly tin, the greatest garden construction product known to man.