UKC

Was browsing wikipedia, and came across quite a few experienced climbers who died abseiling. In fact, it was pretty noticable as a killer, after stuff like exposure, altitude, and avalanches, it seemed like a major cause of fatalities in experienced climbers.

So, without wishing to speculate insensitively on particular incidents, what is it that is killing them? Abbing off the tails carelessly? Anchors ripping? Not using a prussic backup and losing control of the rope? Or something else (melting through the rope on long abs)? I appriciate every case is different, but it would be useful to know mistakes people are making.

In reply to fishy1:

I hate abseiling; I find it the scariest part of climbing and am normally meticulous in checking everything twice, using a prussik and generally being extra careful.

However, when tired and stressed it's easy to make mistakes. Escaping off a route as bad weather came in was I abbing with an Italian Hitch and no prussik, and set things up badly so that the rope was running across the gate of my krab, slowly unscrewing it as I went. I don't think I'll ever forget hearing the quiet snap as the gate opened and looking down to see my hitch turn into just two ropes running straight through the krab.

Luckily I only fell about a metre onto a protruding ledge where I was able to sort things out and continue - at the time I wasn't really in a state to properly think about what happened, but later on it made me the shivers to realise just how easily that small lapse could have resulted in a very long tumble down the mountainside.

I would imagine that most abseiling accidents occur under similar circumstances - knackered, not thinking straight, and making a minor oversight that becomes a tragedy.

In reply to fishy1:

I believe there are two main types of abseil accident, at opposite extremes. One, in very straightforward situations where carelessness or lack of concentration kick in (cp. slipping on grass on 'easy' yet serious descent routes). Two: in situations where the players are already in extremis i.e. already in a very serious life-threatening situation (e.g. retreating in very bad weather conditions)

In reply to fishy1:

my vote would be for the combination of stress/fatigue and having a complicated anchor/pull-down/everything else set up.

particularly if theres double/twins ropes, a pull line, mix of ropes joined etc, the 50-50 of which rope to go on must sometimes turn out bad.

after a few high altitude descents i can see the possibility of falling asleep creep in. sounds nuts, but when its miles of descent down fixed ropes and youve been up for a long time the brain can flag.

In reply to fishy1:

All of the above - except the melting through ropes bit - never heard of that happening.

In reply to fishy1: It's not surprising things go wrong because it is the one part of the day when you weight the rope. The rest of the day has been spent avoided using the rope.
I think the use of a prussik is the biggest step forward in abseiling safety. We never used to use them back in the eightites. One cold day wearing lots of bulky woolies I clipped into my belay plate which was on the front of my harness and started a serious abseil but things felt wrong. I double checked and found the belay plate was clipped to a plastic gear loop and the not harness belay loop. In theory I only ever attached the belay plate to gear loops at the back of my harness but it only takes once.....

In reply to george mc: The melting through ropes comes from an incident in i believe where blue 3 twist polyprop rope was used. I think gaping ghyll (cavers help).

In reply to fishy1: I know someone who had a nasty fall while escaping a winter route due to his anchor ripping. I think he was just being a bit of a cheapskate and decided to go off a single nut which unfortunately ripped just as he went over the edge. Luckily for some reason his climbing partner had kept the ropes in his belay plate after he tied himself off to an icescrew at the stance below and when he saw the ropes coming loose from above started taking in the slack. I believe he ended up falling something close to 90m down a gully but thanks to his partners quick thinking and the single ice screw holding he stopped short of the ground and ended up with a broken collar bone and a concussion not to mention a large bill to replace the gear stressed or damaged by the fall.

In reply to fishy1:

I can't think of many (any actually) experienced climbers who died abseiling - now soloing, that's very different.

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs: Tom Patey? Matthew Bransby?

In reply to John2:

Cheers, wasn't aware of the second one though.

Chris

In reply to Dave80:

He is one lucky bugger! I hope he bought the belayed a few drinks as well! Could not have been a comfortable stopping (not really a landing as it wasn't the floor)

In reply to Chris Craggs: Patey died attempting to free his pullover which had become stuck in his descender. Matthew died when the ab rope slipped off the rounded boss that he was abseiling from.

In reply to fishy1: I haven't actually known this as a cause of accident but I thought it possible that if the ends of the rope weren't knotted and that the rope was not placed centrally over the tat then it would be possible to abseil over one strand of the rope which would then pull the opposite strand through the tat resulting in a fall.

In reply to fishy1: I wonder if John Long's "Close Calls" has got anything in about abseiling, I'll take a look tonight and get back...

In reply to Chris Craggs:

What about the American guy (who's name completely escapes me now) who died not too long ago when his belay loop broke while abbing - very old harness I believe.

In reply to fishy1:

Non equalised rope ends, or rapping on two different length ropes has been the cause of a number of accidents in the alps, notably the tragic death of Romain Vogler, apparently.

In reply to Richard123:

Todd Skinner.

In reply to Kafoozalem:



I think concentration is far more important.

In reply to Richard123:

Possible petrol contamination as well i believe...

In reply to petestack:

Yeah, that was a totally bizarre and as far as I'm concerned unheard of thing to happen. Not to mention unspeakably tragic. One theory put forward was that he used a cows tail sling larks footed into his belay loop and left it there in the same place throughout the life of the harness causing it to always wear in the same place. Whether that's the case or not, it's a practice that I dislike and serves very little purpose.

In reply to JTM:

As sad as it is I alays think thank god he wasn't belaying someone from that loop when it broke, that would be a hard burden to bare.

In reply to Richard123: He would possibly belay from the rope loop, but if he didn't..

In reply to JTM:

Slightly off topic, but to pick up on this Jon, I have a permanently tied rope cowstail, which I must admit I like and use a lot, but I hadn't considered this possibility. I will be checking things when I get home, as my harness isn't exactly new, and the rope's been there a good while.
Thanks for the warning.........

In reply to John2:

Also Laurie Holliwell(anchor failure I think). Seemed amazing at the time that is should happen to such a competent and experienced climber.

In reply to fishy1: Royal Robbins summed the reason for abseiling fatalities up: 'I dislike the feeling of having all one's eggs in one basket.'

Comici died in an abseiling accident, so did Laurie Holliwell in the 70s.

In reply to PeteDeb: Hah, talk about great minds! We're of that age, Pete!

In reply to Wotcha: this actually happened to me many years ago when I was an active caver. It was on a pull-through trip down Swinsto (or was it Simpsons?) Pot in the Dales. I was first man down a series of short pitches and there was a lot of water flying about making a quick descent desirable. Act in haste, repent at leisure? I ended up falling about 10 - 15 feet, fortunately landing on my back in a deep pool without injury. There were far more abbing incidents underground than above probably beacause cavers use ropes far more for getting up and down. The only nasty incident I recall though was somebody falling off the top of Stanworth Quarry who was about to ab back down to the foot of the route - apparently forgot to clip in and fell the full height breaking ankles and tearing ligaments.

In reply to JTM: Ironically I was given a bowlocking at a climbing wall recently by a member of staff for refusing to use a cows tail with my Bod harness. It got quite heated actually, the idiot was insisting that I ignore the manufacturers printed instructions in favour of his advice.

In reply to Karl Lunt: A friend of mine has never ceased to be ripped for his comment at the mighty Auchinstorry Quarry 'Let's just ab down here and get another quick route in...' Sadly he didn't check that both ends were at the bottom before abbing down... Took 6 months to recover, IIRC.

In reply to JohnnyW:

It wasn't really meant as a warning as such as I have difficulty in imagining how the wear could occur to the belay loop under those circumstances (more than any other circumstances, that is). I would have thought the wear would be more on the belt and leg loops, which clearly wasn't the case. My objections to the practice are: 1) that the cows tail gets in the way, obscures the gear loops etc. 2) is rarely the right length when you arrive at the belay (this in itself can be dangerous) There are other minor issues but they've completely escaped me for the moment...

In reply to muppetfilter:
There was a short period when polypropylene ropes were adopted by cavers because they float. They stopped doing it because of abseil accidents but I don't think it was a case of the descendeur melting the rope, although polypropylene does have a low melting point. The mechanism of failure was a more insidious one of repetitive stress causing internal heating of the rope. Pull on a polythene drinks-can holder loop. See how it "gives" and gets warm to get an idea of what's going on.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward: yes, abbing really is highly dangerous for lots of reasons not least plain simple carelessness/forgetfulness. Back underground again at Alum Pot I was threading my rack (an old descender device that had hinged bars across a steel frame) about to head down a 200 ft drop when my mate told me that I'd threaded them in such a way they would have popped all the bars out! I was rightly bawled out - it's a wonder I ever made it out of my teens.

In reply to Andy Long: I might be wrong here but I think the UK's first caving SRT fatality (some time in the late 60's/early 70's?) was due to a polyprop rope breaking - could have been over an edge or due to melting. The guy fell almost the full depth of Gaping Gill main shaft - over 300 feet. I spoke to one of the rescuers and it wasn't pretty.

In reply to JTM:

"Non equalised rope ends, or rapping on two different length ropes has been the cause of a number of accidents in the alps, notably the tragic death of Romain Vogler, apparently."

I've hear a few stories about this, one was detailed in rock and ice mag. a female climber had numerous length marks (quarter length and half length) on her rope, so when she pulled through the rope she thought she had the middle but really she had a quarter mark. I've no idea why anyone would mark a quarter on the rope.

In reply to gethin_allen: Guidebook checking/knowing how far you've got to the next belay? Useful, but shame if her misunderstanding cost her her life.

In reply to Chris Craggs:


Giusto (sp?) Gervasuti?

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Arne Naess.

Coming to climbing from canyoneering on the Colarado plateau, where abseiling is something you end up learning to do in your sleep, this thread interests me. Specifically, all the talk of prusiks/autoblocks and unequal lengths of rope. Many (most?) of the canyoneering community tend to adopt an approach to abseiling which I suspect many here would be horrified by:

Abseil single strand on 8-9mm rope, off a single anchor (two if the route is bolted, but many aren't, so you end up slinging a boulder or a tree with tied tubular webbing and a rapide, and leaving it behind for the next people to descend the route). Autoblocks/prussiks are generally NOT used, because many of these abseils are into running water with floating disconnects, and anything that slows you down disconnecting can get you drowned. Indeed often the rope length is set so that it just reaches the water, and you abseil straight off the end of the rope and swim away.

As for rope retrieval, often a biner block is used. This involves the required length of rope through the rapide, then taking the other side and tying a clove hitch round the spine of a screwgate. This is then allowed to rest against the side of the rapid link and when the other side is weighted by an abseiler, the carabiner and clove hitch stops the rope from going through. For all but the last person down, one can back this up with a figure 8 to another screwgate clipped to the anchor if one wants, but it's generally not done because biner blocks, despite how flimsy they look, pretty much don't fail (unless you're a numpty and your carabiner is small enough to go through the rapide). To get the rope back, a pull cord (either another piece of 8mm static, or something like 6mm accessory cord) is tied to the trailing end of the rope with an offset overhand bend, and deployed by the last one down. This way, you don't accidentally clip into it (which has been the cause of accidents)

Despite this - abseiling single strand on 8mm static with your rope held in place by a clove hitch tied round the spine of a screwgate wedged against a rapide link, using no autoblock, the most abseiling accidents in the US canyons seem to happen to inexperienced people who are abseiling double strand on thick rope from bolted anchors, either because they didn't rig enough friction, their choice of anchor was sub-optimal, or their ropes became tangled on the way down (which can't happen if you go single strand).

You do get the luxury of setting all this up while standing on terra firma, and having plenty of time to do it, and usually being able to weight your anchor in test conditions, however.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
It was fatal.

In reply to fishy1:

The most common are when the abseil anchor fails, either by wearing through the sling after several others have gone down, or the climber lifting the loop off the spike when starting... This happened next to me once in the Alps and guy went past us and fell to his death on the glacier below. Other ones that have claimed several famous guides are climbing up a jammed rope which un-jams suddenly, and the weirdest one was the last one down being struck by lightning as he set off - his body was found dead in the position of starting the descent... can't remember his name but he was no beginner. As can be seen the problem is compounded by retreating in bad weather, storms and so on.

Funnily I've never heard of any case where a prusik backup has saved anyone nor a case where the use of one would have done... which is why I never use one.

In reply to gethin_allen:
I abseiled off one end of the rope recently, I was using a friends rope and his middle mark wasn't in the middle. Thankfully I was very close to the deck (less than 2m) and I realised what was happening in time to grab the rock. I now always run through from the ends to the middle just to check that I've got doubled ropes even.

In reply to Reach>Talent:

You can also take a look from time to time as you go down

In reply to fishy1:
It's nearly 10 years since a good friend of mine (and of Biped) was killed in the Pyrenees while abseiling. They had completed a winter route, and had found it difficult to locate the line of descent in the gloom and poor weather at the end of a long day . My mate found himself at the end of the rope suspended over a void, faced with climbing back up. Cold & exhausted, he was unable to make any progress.

The thought is that he couldn't get his prussic high enough for it to lock to start climbing again because the knot at the end of the rope was jammed against his device. For some reason, and you have to factor in what the cold does to you, he opted to cut the knot off, maybe so that the prussic would then come under tension and grip on icy ropes. It didn't, and he slipped off the end of the rope to his death.

It's easy to be critical - why didn't he try and put a prussic above the other one, for example? I had retreated off a route with him before in terrible conditions (Deep Cut Chimney on Hells Lum), and he was incredibly careful, checking everything 3 times before we comitted to it, despite being battered and litteraly burried by spindrift at the time. Cold and exhaustion screws with your thought process, and it's easy to make mistakes, sometimes with terrible consequences.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
I did look down occasionally I just can't count I'd been retrieving some stuck gear and got a bit less cautious as I neared the ground. I could see one end of the rope coiled on the ground and didn't spot that it was only 1 end

In reply to Reach>Talent: might be stating the obvious but when abbing on a single rope doubled up (or two single ropes) I always put a big fat knot on the end tying the two together - something that equalises the ropes and stops you potentially sailing off into space by jamming in your descender.

In reply to Karl Lunt:
Yes I heard something about that. I was told about the "work-weakening" of polyprop on a cave leaders course at Whernside Manor many years ago. I'll stand corrected on this but I believe the failures didn't occur whilst abseiling but during prussiking, the continual bouncing action causing the internal heating.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Possibly because an accident that doesn't happen is less likely to be reported?

In reply to Reach>Talent:
"I was using a friends rope and his middle mark wasn't in the middle"

I've got a mammut genesis rope that came with the centre per-marked but not quite in the right place (it's about 2m from the centre). Also, the rope sold as a 50m is actually about 54m.

In reply to Andy Long: just found this http://www.sat.dundee.ac.uk/arb/cpc/century.html Look under the 1974 entry.
Can't vouch for the authenticity.

In reply to Karl Lunt:
I stand corrected then! Fascinating article.

I abseiled off the end of a rope once, 10m off a boulder-strewn deck. It was a single 11mm rope, with a figure of 8 knot tied in the end. I had to swing into the wall at the end of the rope to reach the belay. It was difficult to do while trying to stop slipping further down the rope, so I let the knot jam up against the figure of 8 belay/abseil device as I swung in space. Then the knot popped through the device.
Luckily my left hand was holding the rope for balance, and the hand instinctively grabbed hard, slipping down the rope to the knot, where it held me. Luckily I was able to swing into the rock at a point where there were handholds and footholds but no cracks for protection, but of course as the rope was at full stretch I couldn't keep hold of both it and the rock so I let it go and it pinged up into space.
My partner abseiled down and got onto the belay 6 foot above and tied me on. Never been so grateful for a belay or to finally get onto the ground.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Jim Baldwin (FAist of Squamish Grand Wall) on Washington Column.

Jim Madsen, from near the top of El Cap. Dihedral Wall checking out friends in a storm. Went off the end of the rope even though it had a knot in it.

Gary Gibson and Martin Crocker near-misses.


In reply to jon:

emailed you regarding Romain Volger.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

There are hundreds Chris.

In reply to duncan:

Quoted everywhere as exclaiming 'Oh, shit!' as he did it. Although I'm sure I remember reading a Jim Perrin article years ago that credited him with something a little stronger (unless that was someone else on El Cap, which seems unlikely?).

In reply to petestack:

Thats the version in all the famous climbing quotes compilations. 3000' is a long time to think about things.


In reply to Mick:

I have an phrase that enters my head frequently when I'm abseiling that must have come from an old climbing article. Something like "tous les grands chefs meurent rappel". Ring any bells with anyone?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I doubt that!

I think Gervasuti was prusiking back up a jammed rope and Holliwell slipped from the ledge whilst setting up an abseil - though I am prepared to be corrected.

Chris

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Funnily I've never heard of any case where a prusik backup has saved anyone nor a case where the use of one would have done... which is why I never use one.

I was with someone who slipped on a wet slab whilst starting an abseil. If she had not been using a prussik backup she would have been killed. I always use one and have also found it useful for stopping to clear coils of rope, retrieve runners etc. I believe there have been cases of people hit by rocks whilst abseiling where at least they remained attached to the rope. If such a simple measure can avert potential disaster and be useful, on occasions as well, I see no reason not to use it. I have done lots of abseiling over big drops in the Dolomites and have had some scares. A prussik gives you a bit of a comfort factor. I leave and breathe by the adage of an old climbing partner of mine who said: "Climbing is a silly thing to die for - I intend to live and climb to age 85 and then be shot by an angry husband". Good one to live your life by! So I will carry on cranking and occasionally abseiling for a while yet - carefully.

In reply to Karl Lunt: `Breaking out into a cold seat!'
Whoo! Thanks for this!

I was already watchful over this situation but am doubly so now!

Funny how real tangible experiences make the risk more real isn't it?

In reply to Chris Craggs: From memory I think Holliwell's anchor failed, I can check in his Mountain obit this evening.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


What odd logic. Why on earth would you hear of a simple run of the mill backup saving someone. It hardly makes for a dramatic story.

For what it's worth Bruce, I've seen a Prussik save someone from a 40m fall (distraction/ human error).

I'm no 'back everything up' evangelist but Prussik knots have their uses.
jk

In reply to fishy1: For all of the speculation as to why it happens i personally think most probable cause most of the time is fatigue. When you've spend 18 hours climbing an alpine route which you then have to ab off of mistakes happen. Usually even if it's a technical failure of equipment it's possible to foresee these occurences in a non stress, non fatigue situation but when you're tired & you just want to get down you miss out on the obvious things.

Whilst it seems like an obvious easy thing to do abseiling is almost certainly in my mind the most dangerous part of alpine climbing. Cause this is where you hear of the vast majority of these incidents.

In reply to fishy1:

It probably is better to have some sort of back-up like a prussik but I have never used one as I tend towards the KISS principle. Coming from a caving background where speed is often important when descending through water and there is the possibility of stones also falling, I tend towards keeping things simple and using a robust device like a figure-of-8. A good check on the anchor and tying the ends off are usually what I do before a quick descent and checking below and above. Certainly not the place to discover your clothing is going to get jammed or your hair which I believe has happened to a few.

In reply to fishy1: I believe Tom Patey also died while abseiling.

Having done lots of it, in all sorts of places, conditions and times of the day or night people would seem to get in wrong because they are tired...and or in a rush. When me and a mate did the North Ridge of the Bedile we did 22 abs as a group of 8 doing overlapping abs and finished at 2.00 in the morning. We got mixed up with a group of others who had don the Cassin Route and one climber was so tired that thought they had clipped in to ab and the hadn't. My mate was able to quickly grab them before stepping off.

We all got down ok.

In reply to PeteDeb:

There was a report on internet somewhere by some Canadian rangers IIRC that demonstrated that in their zone more people had been killed due to problems caused by the prusik "protection" than by abbing accidents where one was not used... but this comes up frequently so perhaps it's best not hijack the thread?

I too have no desire to die and consider abseiling to be one of the most dangerous parts of climbing but as elsewhere I stick to the KIS principal - avoid complications and be careful... There's also the trade off between getting down before the storm or nightfall and protecting oneself from the statistically unlikely even of being hit by falling stones. As I said the only abbing accidents I have witnessed or heard of would not have been avoided by a prusik.... but each to his own.

In reply to fishy1:
I apologise for not reading every posting but have some of these accidents involved a knot pulling through the device ie the El cap accident and the lad who came off a rope 10m up, how can a knot pull through a device?
Cheers Beds

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Interesting. I've never used a backup of any kind (not that anyone I know ever did) - and wouldn't be too keen to now because of the potential extra complications involved.

In reply to J1234:
"...how can a knot pull through a device?"

Depends what sort of device you're using - eg if you use a figure of eight descender it would be easy for the knot to feed through the device.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

You can doubt it all you like. It's true.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


It's a fairly recent thing. When I first climbed in the '80s, I don't recall ever using one. But when I started proper mountaineering a few years ago, I began to use a prusik. I don't on every abseil, but it comes in handy if I need to stop e.g if the ropes are blowing about or caught on the way down.

I was helping to teach abseiling and crevasse rescue to novices a couple of weeks ago, and the prusik was mandatory there. However halfway down with one of the trainees, I managed to get mine stuck in the descender, much to my frustration & embarrassment!

So, like most things, they have their uses but create their own complications.

In reply to Chris Craggs:
Laurie Holliwell

In reply to KeithW (LMC):

Once on a single rope camera recce late in the afternoon on High Tor in November I got the Petzl ascendeur and descendeur jammed in opposition (I couldn't release the descendeur) - I nearly had to spend the night up there, 40 feet below the top on my sit seat....

In reply to Chris Craggs:
The accident statistics from Germany (DAV) show year on year a consistent 6% of accidents are caused by abseiling.
The fatal accidents from abseiling vary from 30% to 6% depending on the year.
I´d hazard a guess that most of these involved experienced climbers since they make up the vast majority.

We're talking a figure of 8 belay/abseil device like these:
http://topclimbinggear.com/images/kong-classic-figure-8.jpg
and a single figure of eight knot on an 11mm rope is compressible enough under 75kg to work its way through the big end.
Thanks for the 'lad'. I'm 56 and this happened 30 years ago in the Blue Mountains outside Sydney, but memorable nonetheless!

In reply to fishy1:
I was on a free ab into Boulder Ruckle, Swanage when the free end of my Joe Brown helmet caught in my figure of eight. Strap tight round my neck, rock about 5 feet away, and my prussick loop irretrevably tied, frayed, frizzed and half fossilized on the back of my harness. My partner was down below out of sight and sound. I was about 50 feet from the bottom, halfway down, where a bedding plane runs across the cliff, giving rise to overhangs and ledges. There was a ledge near the abseil line, so I built up the swings caused by my sudden halt. Eventually I could touch the rock and push off, then I could touch a handhold and target another above the small ledge, and finally I committed to the holds. Luckily they held and I could release the helmet strap and have a tremble before continuing my ab.

In reply to Nigel Coe:

I was once involved in a rescue in which a girl's long hair had got caught in her abseil device and was slowly scalping her as she screamed her head off. I've also had my T shirt get caught up and once a nipple (ouch!). Another time a sheep fell from above and caused a landslide. So, best to use a back-up like a prussick. I'm ashamed to say that I sometimes use a shunt above the belay device attached by a 12 inch long piece of cord. Heavy, I know, but you don't half feel safe. Though if it's a free abseil it's a bugger releasing the shunt if you stop. Ho hum...

What scares me the most is the anchors,.. nightmares about that

In reply to Scarab: You're right to have nightmares - and anchor fails, end of. No-one has such perfect knowledge that they can always be 100% sure.

In reply to Scarab:

Yes, and that is one of the more common causes of abseil accidents, I believe.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I know of a couple of incidents where people put the ab rope around a rounded spike or boss for easy retrieval only for it to slip off.

In reply to gethin_allen:

Modern Mammut ropes have a mid mark AND marks at 5m from the ends. I have a feeling that this might have been the reason for this accident.

Also, you mention that your 50m Mammut rope is more like 54m. For some time now, Mammut have made their ropes on the long side to try to deal with the inevitable shrinkage problem that happens to ALL ropes over time. I have known some of my ropes - that have never even got wet - loose 5m or more.

In reply to fishy1:
I came late to this thread, but know of two not mentioned
Brian Sprunt (of der Reisenwand fame)on the matterhorn
Gordon Tinnings on Llech Ddu
there must be many more

In reply to mike bike:

Sandy Allan told me of Brian Sprunt's death on the NF Matterhorn, and as far as I can remember, it was a peg failure, but he wasn't abseiling. Perhaps Sandy can comment if he's listening...

In reply to fishy1: Anyone remember Bill March's "Modern Rope Techniques in Mountaineering"? At the beginning of the chapter on abseiling he observes that you are vulnerable to anchor failure, rope failure, equipment failure, rock fall, ice fall, avalanche and lightning. The dangers from some of these may be remote, but I always remember it when I'm setting off. I'm convinced it's one of the most dangerous things we do.

I do use a backup prusik, although like some here I didn't for a long time. Aside from insurance against various potential mishaps it's useful if you need to stop to sort out the rope.

To the chap above who reckoned being hit by stonefall while abseiling was unlikely: in my experience it's not that unusual for the rope itself to dislodge stones, and if that happens you're in the firing line by definition. I've found this a particular danger in the Dolomites, where there are lots of horizontal ledges covered in debris immediately above hanging abseils. I have been hit on the hand....

In reply to fishy1: didn't Lionel Terray die in an abbing accident too?

I had recently a close call; wanted to abseil off a short distance, slap, no need for prusik, in a rush. only problem grabbed the rope hanging from my back and not the ab rope. In 5 meters free fall you can think exactly 3 1/2 times grab the rope, but not much else. I managed to catch the right rope 2 meters off the ground and nothing much happened.
A prusik could have prevented that.
Climbing mostly at seacliffs abseiling is part of the routine and I use a prusik 99% of the time. But being stressed, tired, and focused on something else it's easy to get something wrong. a prusik extends the error tolerance of the system and we all make errors.
Yep there more fuss, don't work with nice acronyms like KIS and they can get stuck. But learn to use them properly and swiftly and they might safe your bacon when you least expect it.
I learned my lesson, and got away lucky, and would warmly recommend to use a backup when abseiling.

In reply to uncontrollable:

I didn't say that abseiling doesn't require great attention to detail, a methodical approach would have avoided the two near accidents mentioned on this thread. In both case sufficient care was taken putting on the backup but not on the actual abseil rigging so who can say if you hadn't used a backup that you wouldn't have payed more attention to the important bit? Whatever, each of does what feels best for him.

Terray was not killed abseiling IIRC but by a slip on a grassy slope, after the climb I think. His and his partner's body were found at the bottom cliff, which show that even the best can make a slip.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
all I was trying to point out is that a prusik increases your safety margin.
you don't need it, nor do you need to use screwgate karabiners, use plain gate krabs and place them right. Actually if you don't fall of in the first place you need not bather with rope and rack.
But if it goes wrong all of the above will make a difference, the larger your safety margin the more errors you can get away with. which is not to say you should not pay attention to detail. But we all make errors sometimes.

Do what ever you like and what feels right for you,
but attention to detail and a methodical approach won't save you from the unexpected since they just consider the expected.

In reply to uncontrollable:

But you ignore the added risk caused by using a device - several examples have been given on this thread and I mentioned a report that found the same risks - and also the speed factor. As you say safety is always a compromise, too many precautions, like the number of British climbers in the Alps that climb so slowly through putting in too much protection and get benighted, can be a source of danger too.

I don't think it's a right or wrong issue, although the general trend towards people doing courses which push this approach clearly has it's effects on attitudes.

In reply to uncontrollable:



I don't think that this has been categorically proven, has it ? I tend to agree with Bruce on this one - I don't assume that a prusik always increases my safety margin.

In reply to GrahamD: It has been categorically proven to me. A few years ago I got caught in a mini avalanche in the alps while abseiling off a route. There was sufficient pressure to knock my hands off the rope and I was left hanging from the prusik upside down and somewhat stunned. It only takes a few seconds to set up. The only disadvantage I can see is that it can at times inhibit your descent if there is already a lot of friction to overcome but IMO the advantages outway the disadvantages.

Al

In reply to tradlad:


Your call. Personally I prefer not to be so dogmatic and make the decision on a situation by situation basis.

In reply to GrahamD: Of course and there are situations where I would not bother. With slabs it can be more of a hindrance than a help and if there is little risk from above I would probably not bother..

Al

In reply to fishy1:
I'm into caving and mine exploration and I've done a large amount of abseiling/prussicing. I use a stop descender and a breaking crab as do most of the people I go caving/exploring with. Of course you can't use two ropes with a stop.

We nearly always use two bolting points to abb off although sometimes one and sometimes three, recently when exploring a mine in wales a bolt popped with no warning in sound rock as an unexperienced explorer has just got on the rope at the top of the pitch, it just goes to show it can happen.

as to using a prussic I don't and I probably wont, however I always carry a petzl spathia on a loop of 6mm accessory cord around my neck which can be used as a kleinheist knot if necessary.

In reply to psykx:

From my limited experience, a lot of caving 'bolts' are actually pretty flimsy 'P hangers' - quite disconcerting when you are used to solid ring bolts !

The Petzl STOP isn't immune from accidents either. Not for nothing is it sometimes known as the Petzl GO because of the easy with which it can be incorrectly threaded.

In reply to fishy1: No fatality, but I broke my back abseiling in May and cause in my case was momentary lack of concentration - final abseil of the day, almost down, lost balance and pendulumed a few feet across gully into opposite wall. Soles of boots in rucksack were driven against spine. Went to A&E, who missed fracture, and it then took almost three months before it was diagnosed. All being well, I go into hospital for major surgery in late November and hope to be climbing again in time for the 2011 season. Even in my pain, I did not let go of the rope, but I was nonetheless very glad that I had a French prussic on it, especially as I still had to complete the abb. Take better care out there than I did, folks....

In reply to fishy1: I almost killed myself in the alps this summer through being scared and not concentrating. my mate set the ropes up with an overhand with long tails. somehow i managed to tie into the tails, i was just about to lean back wen my mate spotted what i'd done. i came so close to a 50m rag doll down a granite slab, its untrue. keep a lookout for that one, its suprisingly easily done.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Yeah, but if a bus mounted the pavement and killed a Granny, would you walk in the middle of the road from then on?

You said you couldn't think of an occasion where a prussik would have saved someone - surely there's dozens just on this thread. What about Todd Skinner?

I tend to use one in more serious situations - I probably wouldn't bother on Rivelin Needle for instance.

The time factor is surely minor if you're efficient; I often put my prussik on whilst my partner is descending.

In reply to fishy1:

Never mind abseiling, in my mind descent of any kind is generally more hazardous and way easier to have an epic than ascent. There's all the reasons mentioned above, but also descent somehow feels 'blinder' than going up.

Abseiling is an epic magnet though. Say for instance you're on a long multi-pitch route; most people wouldn't worry too much if they had to do the last few pitches in the dark with a head torch. Multi-pitch abseiling in the dark is another matter entirely though.

Then there's hazards like accidentally letting go of the ropes (post ab) at a midway stance and watching them float into space (The Verdon is good for this), prussiking on a single strand when a rope has jammed halfway through the pull, shock loading the anchors repeatedly on ab - all things that don't normally happen when your climbing.

In reply to fishy1: Lost a mate to abseiling, have had a few incidents with jammed ropes, and know someone who was saved by a prussic after the anchor failed but the ropes snagged on a block.

In reply to jonny2vests:


No, I said I had never witnessed an accident where one would have helped.

But each to his own, if you feel safer with one then that's your answer for you. I suspect in reality it just goes down to what you are used to and perceived wisdoms. When I started abseiling we used either the classic abseil or a crab and a figure of eight sling to sit in, a backup was never used, these days most people use various abseil gadgets and are taught that a backup is a necessity, so that's what they do. We could argue for hours but it really just comes down to this... I don't think walking in the middle of the road 'cos a granny got squashed by a bus has much to do with it

In reply to fishy1: I think a good application of an autoblock in abseiling is if you have to reverse the abseil. It leaves your hands free to set up a foot sling. Nobody yet mentioned trying to set their abseil device up on their leg loop. Or abseiling down to far on a swinging ab rope and ending up in the sea; which makes self-rescue that much harder.
Pete

In reply to tom allsop:

I've had exactly the same experience, though it was me who left the tails, and I actually started the (fortunately ledgy) ab. In this case I think I was flustered not by fatigue or bad weather but by a pushy French guide.

In reply to jonny2vests:

I think doing a lot of caving definitely helps in this regard as apart from giving one confidence in descent it also makes you assess your fitness constantly so that you always have sufficient in reserve for the full trip. Climbing either up or down on rock confidently by headtorch also is an essential for many alpine peaks so that is an added bonus from caving.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

As said, with a proper Machard (I do not think anyone still uses the real Prusik) technique there is no significant time loss and/or slowing down of the abseiling.

Machard does save lifes, that occurred many times and will occur many more times.

Given that with a good technique and good timing a Machard hasn't any drawback on abseil descents, the possibility of any event that will compel the climber, consciously or not consciously, to detach both hands from the ropes seems a very good reason to make a Machard anyway.

I'm obviously not saying that you have to use a Machard, I'm just saying your arguments against the use of it are inconsistent.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

No, you said:

"Funnily I've never heard of any case where a prusik backup has saved anyone nor a case where the use of one would have done... which is why I never use one."

So my point stands - Todd Skinner with a prussik on his leg loop would have been saved.

Its not perceived wisdom - the act of descending a rope is clearly safer with redundant system in place. You have a point when it comes to long days in the alps & speed etc, but you cant deny my point surely.

In reply to Fil-g.:

Tou are wrong that there are no drawbacks. It definately does take longer to swing abseils, it is a couple of extra things to concentrate on when at one's limit and people can and do get them locked up (jamming in abseil device/hair/anything else). Judge each case on merit.

In reply to Fil-g.: WTF is a 'machard?' If you are going to enlighten us with your wisdom, can you try not to obscure at the same time?

In reply to jonny2vests:

And yet people do get killed due to accidents provoked by backup devices... as I said above a report done by some Canadians is on the net somewhere which showed it was 50/50, both happen. Obviously being careless when abseiling is not a good idea

The people who abseil off their long tails should perhaps go back to a double fishermens where such long tails are not required!

In reply to GrahamD:

No I don't think so. Really, setting a crab with Machard cordelette on your belay loop needs if you're slow twenty seconds, and it's already done for the whole descent. Doing it and undoing is just a few seconds. I can't see any drawback if its properly made and if the climber has the proper method.

I agree we always have to judge each case on merit, but in the end there will be very few cases where a Machard would be overkill.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:




They're not required on overhands, Bruce - not long enough to mistake for the rope, anyway.

Must admit, rightly or wrongly, I rarely use a back-up. I think that as you say, it's a generation thing. If you started with classic, then moved to the luxury of a bent wire 8 then it's not quite the same as being taught to climb and abseil with all these little gadgets and safety back-ups - of which the French prussik or Machard as it is known in French, is the best...

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Well, I did not mean to enlighten anyone. What about some googling?

I guess it's also known as Klemheist or French Prusik. But in some web pages there's some confusion. In the Machard both ends of the cordelette are clipped directly into the krab, in the Klemheist you pass one end through the other, wich is perfectly dispensable.
Standard abseiling techique in the Alps, taught from years in any guides' course.

In reply to Fil-g.:

The Klemheist shouldn't be used as a back up as it cannot be released. In fact I can't think of a single application where the the French Prussik/Machard won't work. Why learn a whole host of knots if one will do?

In reply to JTM:

Yes, I should have pointed out more clearly the the proper Klemheist is NOT a Machard (in the english Wiki page and in other sites they are given as the same knot. But I've known more than one US/canadian climber who called Klemheist what in Europe is known as Machard, not the opposite).

In reply to Fil-g.:


That is sometimes a big "if" in pressure situations. It DOES happen that people get caught up - I know I've done it, and it definately does take longer.

Of course there are situations where it seems prudent to use a backup but more often than not, I'd rather my abseil set up was as simple as it could be.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Wouldn't mind seeing that.

In reply to fishy1: I agree with GrahamD. In certain situations you want to be able to concentrate on the more likely dangers rather than faffing around with a french prussik. When you're concerned about the fading daylight, worried about the rope snagging on a flake when you pull it down, terrified that the two dodgy pegs you're both hanging from don't move again, then attaching a prussik could be a costly diversion.

In reply to GrahamD:


I don't discuss your preferences, but I still don't see the point in the argument. The metaphor of “walking in the middle of the road since cars do hit people even on the sidewalk” that someone did before in this thread seems to me quite well focused.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

wow. your choice completely, so I am not criticizing you. I got hit on my (control) hand by a piece of ice once, abbing down a vertical section of rock above a long 60 degree icefield. The prusik backup definitely saved me from going down to the knots. I was glad of it then. I also know a guy who had some kind of low blood sugar fainting episode and found himself just letting go of the ropes. he was then able to get himself together enough to pull some food out of his pockets but he said he was glad of the prusik backup because his brain was a bit fuzzy at that moment and it gave him one less thing to have to do. but I do think it's a technique, not something that has to be done all the time.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Saved me more than once and saved Joe Tasker once if I remember well (when a rock smashed his face and glasses while abbing). Would have saved Tom Patey. Would probably have saved the lad who died down the road from me the other day at Padaro ... like many he abbed off the end of the rope (prussik in a high position usually saves you in this scenario).

A prussik or similar back up while abbing is one of the most important (and neglected) safety measures in all of mountaineeing.

A prussik or similar back up while abbing is one of the most important (and neglected) safety measures in all of mountaineeing.


yes

In reply to talon_guy:

If that's what you think, then "just do it" as they say.... I'll still do as I always have though, thank you very much

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

It's like wearing helmets for climbing or skiing, Bruce. There are really good arguments for doing so, as indeed there are for abseil back-ups, but in the end it's us who decides whether we do or not. Just one of the great things about climbing and mountaineering - there are no rules.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

But you can. Just have to pass your guides' test - if that's what you mean... Anyway I just said climbing and mountaineering.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Those, and all the other examples sound like abseiling accidents to me?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
I'll still do as I always have though, thank you very much


Do you have an address for a hemp rope retailer ?

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

You seem to have deleted your post Mark. My reply doesn't make sense. But it's too late to delete it.

In reply to Postmanpat:

I do move with the times, I used a Troll belt for a long time after the hemp waistline, and bought a harness a few years ago after a somewhat interesting abseil descent in the Alps which consisted of three full length abbs dangling mostly in free air. I decided that my twisted sling to sit in was in less than sufficient.

I change my methods when they look better but I just don't feel the need personally for a backup when abbing.... a pair of gloves is worth using though when using a descender whereas with moleskin breeches and a woolen pullover and using a classic abseil I didn't find them essential.

If I did feel the need, I think I'd go for a shunt rather than a prusik.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Pierre Beghin - Annapurna; anchor failed - a cam, I think. Quite possibly a factor when retreating off a big face is that your rack may well not be large enough to leave more than one piece at each anchor - otherwise you may be marooned with no gear left before you reach the bottom - forcing you to trust anchors that in other circumstances you would back up. Obviously there are steps that can be taken to reduce the risk in this situation - last one down removes the back-up, rope clipped through intermediate gear (removed by last one down) with ends tied to next belay - but such measures are easily overlooked when fatigued, and may well be impractical for other reasons.

One of the first ascent team, Ed Bernd I think, descending West Face of Huntingdon. Can't remember exactly but I think he came off the end of the rope; he was first down, the others heard a shout, he was gone when the next one arrived. A young and probably relatively inexperienced team (which included Dave Roberts) who pulled off a major Alaskan ascent.

Someone died two or three years ago descending from the FA of a wall, probably either Baffin or Greenland; American climber I think. Came off the unattached bottom end of a fixed rope low on the route.

I suppose Harlin's death on the Eiger could just as easily have been an abseiling accident; fixed rope failure.

A couple of near misses:-

Coral Bowman - Naked Edge; rope somehow became detached from anchor - saved herself by grabbing adjacent hanging 9mm rope (I saw the bandages!)

Mark Wilford (or possibly Greg Child, but I think Wilford) - Trango; retreating off a big wall in a storm, mentally and physically extended several days out, unclipped cowstail from anchor at hanging belay to lower bodyweight onto abseil device only to realise just in time that it wasn't clipped to harness, fortunately strong enough to do necessary one-armer and general flailing to get re-attached while wearing alpine gear, big boots and gloves on vertical, icy granite!

In some of these incidents a prussik back-up could have made all the difference, in others not. I assume Madsen would have been using a karabiner brake on a single rope, so it's fairly easy to understand how the end knot could have passed through it.

In reply to talon_guy:

is it?

In reply to jkarran:
yeah, I did think that, when would you hear of that..??

In reply to fishy1:

A friend (an experienced climber and Alpinist) died at a sport crag by accidentally not clipping both ropes on a double rope abseil. Another guy i know died by abing off a dodgey sling at gordale.


I think experience climbers dying is going to be a case of not checking and having some bad luck, anchors hardly ever rip.

In reply to Ian Parsons:


Ok; my recollection was somewhat wide of the mark with this one - maybe I'm confusing it with another incident. According to the account in "Fifty Classic Climbs in North America" the accident occurred at about midnight, so darkness and fatigue presumably played a part; within sight of Roberts Bernd apparently failed to properly attach the rope to an anchor piton - the piton was still in place afterwards, but rope and karabiner went with him.

Another example that springs to mind is whatever accident befell Hans Doseth and partner - sorry, can't remember his name - descending back down the route after the FA of the Norwegian Route on Great Trango. As they both fell it was presumably most likely some sort of catastrophic anchor failure, which could in a big wall situation be triggered by something like (this is pure speculation) allowing a loaded haulbag to fall to the end of its rope.

In reply to fishy1: What all these postings show is that there are few common mistakes but many may have been averted had better checking been done but that's an armchair comment as only those on-site at the scene of the accident or near-miss are in any sort of position to comment.

Unavoidable distractions like extreme weather are common but then the onset awful conditions are likely to be what prompted the decision to ab in the first place.

What I find hugely ironic is the fact that such a lethal aspect of our sport, what is in effect a self-rescue technique, can get glamorised so easily and made into a near sport in its own right.
Take this as an example:
http://www.worldreviewer.com/travel-guides/camping/thaba-metsi-adventure-fa...
I also find it absurd when folk think they look really bold abseiling infront of a crowd ... but then the charity card gets played and I'm supposed to relent!
aye, Andy

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Welcome back! I always wondered what happened there, but never wanted to stir that case up again. Are you at Uni. in Manchester then?

In reply to Andy Cloquet:


Hey, dont knock it; provides useful extra revenue for pennyless instructors, and gives you an extra tool to amuse your group with..

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

A good further idea is to get your punters to set up their own prussik back up and then let go during the descent to test the system (obviously you are holding a safety line just in case!). This also inculcates the good habit of always backing up your abbs.

In reply to Gavin Taylor: You and Jamie are right: for SPA's or MI's teaching abseiling is a vital part of our toolbox; especially when learners abseil off their own anchors (checked by me, of course) and, using a stacked abseil, get to descend without a top rope - ('yes' I hold the rope underneath just in case etc.). Then there's the teaching of multi-abseils and all the little tips and routines that can be learnt in the mountain environment.

It's just the (mainly) guys who really don't climb as such but like to show of their apparent boldness by demonstrating their puff by abseiling infront of their mates and onlookers.

My hatred of this is borne out of the former Hadrian's Wall, where there were a small but ever-present group of guys who would bottom-rope a few routes then, without fail, set-up a free abseil from one of the roof routes, that could be accessed from a high ledge, into the main teaching zone. They'd be wearing shorts and cut away t-shirts and looked like the nannas I describe. Once on the deck some would walk around the climbing walls for what I can only suppose was a lap of honour. Talking to them, once their egos were back in their pants, and you couldn't find a nicer bunch of prats.

....tolerant, moi? no such luck.
aye Andy


aye, Andy

In reply to Franco Cookson:




Very sad indeed. I remember giving someone pelters about their 'smiths route fiasco' on here a couple of years ago. Someone later told me this was the lad that died in the Rap incident in the Alps.

Ian.

In reply to fishy1: I more often than not use a prusik on my leg loop. I hear folk mentioning Rapping off long ends when tying an overhand not. FFS how long are their ends? When you pull your ropes up(especialy if iced up) there is a fair bit of weight in them. The prusik on the leg is excellent for taking the weight of the ropes while you connect them into your plate, and CHECK your system. Lots seem to have diffeent systems, but the best one is, staying switched on!

In reply to Ian Black:

I don't know of anyone ACTUALLY rapping off the far too long ends... you are right, the weight should tell you. However, I know for a fact that a very tired John Barry set his rappel up like this before realising. Another scenario would be to pull up one end and one rope. The weight could fool you... the result has 50% chance of having the same result. The bottom line, which so many fail to grasp is that the ends don't need to be over-long. Once again. The ends don't need to be over-long.

In reply to fishy1: I despise abbing, my close call was on Dinas Cromlech, when at the top of left wall i clipped into the sling at the top which is a bit dodgy anyway to abb down and STUPIDLY leant back without even checking it. As i leant back thank fook it held but the adrenalin that flew through my body there and then was un-true, still have never forgotten that feeling. Would of been a nice 40m plunge for me. That will be 8/9 lives left! But as we have all said i would never abb off without checking it but when we are tired we do silly things, and i cant even begin to explain why i did this!

I really can't believe that those who argue on this thread for not using a prussik backup have put any thought whatsoever to the problem!

I started climbing in the mid '70s when we just had to make sure we held on tight but by the late 80's things had changed and techniques had moved on. There is no value in sticking ones head in the sand on this one. If you don't know already take the opportunity to learn something new! And yes there perils and pitfalls of using a prussik too so take the time to learn!

I've just returned from a climbing trip to Lundy and frankly you'd be off your trolley to abseil there without backup with all the loose rock etc.

However none of the abseil incidents that I have been involved in would have been solved with a prussik backup.

Last year in the Llanberis slate quarries helping to evacuate an experienced climber with a broken lower leg after abseiling off the end of his rope and falling half the height of Seamstress - a few years ago helping to carry to a helicopter somebody whose abseil rope had rolled off a rounded spike causing him to fall (and land on somebody!) the whole length of the Sloth on the Roaches resulting in a broken femur, and my own rather embarassing incident abseiling off Triermain Eliminate on Castle Rock and having all eyes on Sir Chris Bonington on Angels Highway, not noticing the inevitable arrival of the end of the rope and rolling noisily down the steep ground below the crag, fortunately with no injury but with some very startled looks from Sir Chris! I now tie knots in the ends of my ropes.....

In reply to Hammy: 'I really can't believe that those who argue on this thread for not using a prussik backup have put any thought whatsoever to the problem! '

Er, trust me, I have. And you yourself describe the outcome 'However none of the abseil incidents that I have been involved in would have been solved with a prussik backup. '

So that's why some of us - who have been climbing even longer than you - are still only using the techniques that have served us well for 40+ years. On multipitch abseils I tie the ropes together so come stonefall, mental aberration, whatever, I won't come off the end of the rope. On single pitch abseils I take a lot of care - and, of course, the risk of avalanche on single pitch abseils is minimal. (Think St Govans would you use a prusik THERE?) Adding another process is one more thing to get tangled, caught, go wrong, give a false sense of security ...

So far so good.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Pierre Béghin on Annapurna.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:


Yup. My personal choice, extremely unimportant in the scheme of things and definately not worth fifty-odd postings from entrenched pros and cons!

In reply to JTM:

I have an ex climbing partner of Romain Vogler asking for information about him. Do you have or can you direct me to further information regarding his abseiling accident
Cheers
Paul Everett
Prersident of Geneva section of Swiss Alpine Club

In reply to Paul Everett:

In fact Duncan Critchley who did The Nose, El Cap, in a day with Romain asked me exactly the same thing... I have the exact details of the accident. It's very complicated, but it's not something I'd want to discuss on a public forum. If he wants to email me then I'll send him the details. It'll be in English, though if he prefers French, he should say so. Alternatively he could get the info from Michel Piola.

In reply to JTM:
Re Romain Vogler
I suggested he contact Michel although he was hoping I would do it but Michel is no longer a member of our section. How do I send you his email address without using a public forum

In reply to Paul Everett:

Don't see why he/you can't ask Michel, after all, I'm not a member of your section... It was Michel who explained it to me, so if you want it from the horses mouth, best ask him... To email me you click on the little question mark next to my name. That tells you I haven't bothered with a profile, but also gives you the possibility of emailing me.

In reply to JTM:
Thanks that makes much more sense - he's also not a member of our section, just using my lack of local knowledge

In reply to JTM:

Or click your name itself to email you without checking your non-profile...

In reply to petestack:

Well, I didn't know that! What would we do without such labour saving devices.

In reply to Removed User: Dont get me wrong, wasnt tryin to blame it on my mate, was my own dumb fault! if it wasnt for my mate, id probably be dead. but the length of the tails is perhaps worth pointing out as an issue?

In reply to JTM:

FWIW, I still click the names expecting to get the profiles from time to time!

In reply to tom allsop:

On the assumption that there might, possibly, be one or two other people as daft as you and I, it's definitely worth pointing out. Long tails are good. Tails so long that you can ab off them (briefly) are bad!

I make most mistakes (a) when I've not climbed for at while (which is most of the time) and (b) when someone is watching me or I feel some other sort of social pressure.

In reply to Removed User:

Why are "long tails good" ? Everyone keeps saying it but I can't see that even in my most paranoid moment I would want more than 30cm tails. If you have so little trust in a knot that you think that long tails are good, maybe you need to use a different knot for peace of mind ?

In reply to Removed User:

Somebody somewhere mentioned tails as long as 2m... How daft is that - especially when it might mean rapping off the end of your rope - which is, er, 2m too short! 30cms is adequate.

If anyone feels they have to use ridiculously long tails because they don't trust the knot, then they should go back to a double fishermans and put up with the potential consequences. I think it's more important to be happy with what you are doing than going along with what people tell you to do and be scared shitless all the time.

In reply to GrahamD:

For multi-pitch abseils I tend to use tails of around a foot (30cm) at most for joining the two ab ropes.
The near misses I've either seen, heard about or have had could have been been averted by taking more care and little things such as a overhand knots about a foot from the bottem end of the each rope and having a backup prusik. (loosely tied overhand knots a few cms from the rope end can roll out too if you are not careful...)
For close shaves the Old Man of Hoy years ago and some more recent abseils in the alps this summer spring to mind where the lack of friction on the last few metres from the end of the rope as you try to swing into the next 50 metre ab station can become significant - you are then glad of the backups...!
Years ago when abbing of the old tree (now gone BTW!) in Achinstarry above Nijinsky I hadn't notice that the rope's tape middle marker had moved and that one rope end didn't quite reach the bottom. I abbed off the end but fortunately I was only a few metres off the ground - a lesson learned and not forgotten though!
Having said all that the most dangerous point when abseiling IMHO is when setting them up as it would be easy to clip or unclip the wrong bit of gear or rope.
On several occasions I've seen climbers clip their cows tail into the tie in rope they are about to undo - very nasty!
The other common mistake when there are several climbers on the ab station is for people to unclip the wrong cows tail or worse the whole belay - eyes in the back of your head, different coloured slings and crabs are definitely safer!

In reply to Ron Walker:

I think there is a lot to be said for keeping abseil set ups as simple as possible. There is clearly a trade off between 'simple' and apparently 'safe' but complicated with the obvious potential for f*ck ups.