UKC

Does anyone know anything about Skytrain being retro-bolted? Seems to have vanished off the UKC page and some sport route has popped up instead. 

Heard something about loose rock meaning it wasn’t a safe trad route anymore but by that logic there’s a lot of routes in the highlands ready to be retro-bolted.

Are there plans to retro-bolt The Prow and Gold Digger as well once the peregrine chicks have fledged? 

If there are, you'll never know about it.

Whoever it is will just rock up and do it. There will be a bit of noise on here and elsewhere, probably not involving the bolter, then everything will quieten down. The routes will get a flurry of interest then fall back into obscurity, somewhat negating the 'more traffic as a sport route' argument. Somebody will feel strongly enough to contact MS who will do nothing.

And once again a shared natural resource will have been permanently altered on the whim of one person (or a small group) who will then feel emboldened by the lack of action to keep doing the same.

Sound familiar?

Could always chop them on the same basis?? Otherwise scotland might turn into a worse version of Yorkshire limestone and no-one wants that.  

I've thought of this, one unilateral action in response to another. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with it and I'm fundamentally too lazy to go do it myself!

What I'd really like is for MS to step up to the mark and facilitate proper debate but that seems unlikely on past form.

Some people clearly do want something like that.

And that's a real shame,  given the adventurous tradition of Scottish climbing.  Retroing decent trad routes,  even if a bit neglected is just bringing the route down to your own level and turning what was once a memorable and interesting experience into another forgettable quick fix

“The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.” Community apathy facilitates bad behaviour.

I have some sympathy with this desire but, perhaps, one -personally- could put one’s energies to better use (and organise something themselves) rather than merely shouting into the wind on internet fora.

Ignoring the obvious hyperbole, I'll counter with another quote, "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." I'm not claiming I'm wise but I do have doubts over whether me chopping bolts would be the right thing. I remember the bolt wars of the past and they were ugly.

There’s a certain irony in that Russell quote, no? 

The trouble is you offer nothing except to publicly wish for someone or some body to intervene on your behalf. Another quote for you:

”In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing.”

Absolutely.

I want a full and frank community discussion on the issue.  I can't make that happen myself, it needs to be MS that facilitate it. 

I think that's what Daniel Dennett might call a deepity. If only things were so simple.

I think that what's right and wrong here should be determined by the climbing community not individuals on either side. As I said above, the bolting wars of the past were ugly, I'd very much like to avoid a repeat.

I think you could have simply stopped at

See what I mean? It get's ugly even between those on (broadly) the same side.

If you think my quip was “ugly”, I can see why you’d be so anxious to avoid taking it upon yourself to do any work attempting to discuss this matter with the equippers directly.

Talk of “sides” is simplistic playground nonsense, there are only opinions. I have respect for people who are willing to put in effort, regardless of whether I share their opinions.

Presumably there's a point somewhere between this and chucking some bolts on the first couple pitches of the needle to ease the run outs where you think unilateral action is warranted (maybe when bolts are added to a classic sea stacks?). 

MS showed during the OMOH process that they didn't have much interest in facilitating a proper debate. Right now I'm fairly sure I could go and do some moderately egregious retro bolting without any action. Perhaps a little bit of targeting chopping would make developers think about engaging a wider group of people before going ahead. 

Does anyone know who the person at MS would be to contact to try and engage a proper discussion? 

Seems like the Inverness area is a free for all and it’s spilling out into the NW as well, bolted sandstone cracks etc. which is more concerning than one route at Brin getting bolted.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see The Prow bolted, the gear at the crux is a bit pants and all the blocks are hollow. It gave me a much more memorable experience as a result but there’s nothing to say a mediocre 6a might give someone else the same experience. 

Are they glue ins or expansion bolts? Just asking as knowing which will make the removers task easier in advance.

LOOOOOL I click on this forum thread wondering what these gumbies are talking about and it's literally a sport crag

It was originally a trad crag, the route in question predates any sport climbs that are now there.

It’s a good sport crag, and the trad routes are good too so I don’t see the need to make them sport climbs. 

anything is a sport crag once you've retro bolted it... 

Posting on a UKC forum is never going to be a good way to get consensus Nathan. This looks like a very steep sport crag and unbeknownst to you there might be a very solid reason why bolts were added to this climb. Reading through the replies not one person on this thread seems to know. Maybe do some digging outside of this forum or hell maybe even climb the route itself in question.

Well until a month ago it was a very steep (this bit is actually very) trad crag… 

Out of interest what would be a good reason to bolt it?

this blog post from 2012 begs to differ:

https://fiendophobia.blogspot.com/2012/09/creag-dubh-diversity-brin-rock-ra...

As has been indicated earlier, you are unlikely to find success in your appeals to MS.

MS is just a body that nominally represents a community of climbers (and hillwalker, mountaineers, etc.)

If you want to make more rapid progress in convening a debate to discuss fixed equipment, why not do it yourself? It’s hardly like there’s a massive community of climbers up there, I’m sure you could get the word out fairly easily. You can even do it remotely. Whether all relevant parties attend or not, is another matter … but it was ever thus 

Hence why I asked if anyone had any information about it. I’m not looking for a consensus, I’m trying to find out why it’s been retro bolted, other than it having some loose rock on it.

Do you have any idea on where I should dig to find out said info? 

It’s currently bird banned so I can’t go and climb it unfortunately. 

The wall in question had no sport routes on it until relatively recently. 

Sorry, what point are you trying to prove with this link?

It doesn’t mention anything about the routes at The Needle being sport climbs. Only that there was already sport climbs at Brin, which we’ve already gathered.

So it’s a purely academic enquiry of next to no value to anyone.

Not quite what I meant.

I’d heard through the grapevine about what is said to have happened and I wanted to know any more details as to why.

I don’t think it’s right nor do I think it sets a good precedent but that’s obviously not a concern to whoever has bolted it. 

ill email the correspondance ive had with M.S. when I've raised a similar issue before - short answer is they dont want to know

There's some irony in quoting Matthew Thompsons blog in support of retro bolting e.g.  https://fiendophobia.blogspot.com/2022/11/thinning-wedge.html 

On sensitive matters, enquiring discretely through mutual acquaintances (your grapevine) may yield more success and promote more open communications in future. I think you’ve executed your enquiry poorly.

Not really, he’s a complicated soul. He wasn’t very happy about my approach to bolt encroachment when it involved one of his mates. So his views are, perhaps, not as clear as you portray.

I think you’re correct in your last sentence.

Not sure it’d have been any different regardless of what avenue I’d gone down, however. 

True, its hard to convey complexities in a 1 line ukc reply but there were a lot of strong opinions on High Tor. I guess i meant to say that probably the best arguments ive read against retrobolting trad routes in general have been on his blog. 

I don’t disagree. His stated position and recommendations in the post to which you link are to be commended. A shame, then, that the author’s convictions were so rapidly discarded when they came to be tested. As I wrote above, a complicated soul, I’m sure.

I've never met either of you personally but I wouldn't cite the High Tor debacle as a good example of how to retro-bolt or indeed deal with undesired retro-bolting. No one has come out of that looking good. 

Does having 'convictions' in this case mean disregarding any democratic process and just doing what you believe to be right?

I have discussed it with equippers. I tried my best, really I did, but it got ugly really quickly with one of them accusing me of all sorts of nonsense. 

This is why I think it's so important that MS step up to the mark and why I think there's little point in trying to deal with it without them.

I have never said the bolting/de-bolting on High Tor was a good example. I have elsewhere expressed how both parties could have done better.

My comment re: “convictions”, however, was -  more generally - about ensuring that one’s actions are consistent with one’s statements.

Reckon I'm doing pretty well on that count. I've said I'm too lazy to chop bolts and I haven't chopped any bolts.  

I think you’re confusing “convictions” with “apathy”

LOL.

Sounds to me like you actually think this all matters!

I just find the whinging quite amusing: “Someone [else] really should do something.”

Then you've misunderstood me.

If I'd been asking others to chop the bolts but not willing to do it myself then you'd have a point but that's not what I want. I want a proper grown up discussion not tit for tat chopping and bolting or mudslinging.

No, I don’t think you've yet understood how the world works.

Seems ridiculous to have a go at someone for asking a question about climbing on (god forbid) the UK Climbing forums.

Nathan you’re better off asking questions about stuff like ‘best dishwasher 2025’ on here you’ll get loads of positive responses. 

the advice on how to top up a pond does seem to be much more cordial and definitely has more productive suggestion.

Not the first time bolts have eclipsed a trad line at Brin...

I think the main reason we see the pattern described in Dave K's first post is because most of these bolting events that cause a rumble are not all that egregious. Retro bolting of neglected trad lines, bolting of sandstone cracks which would in reality be very minor and obscure trad routes...people disagree with these things in principle, but not so strongly that they are willing to take action and create the conflict and mess to which that might lead.

It would be interesting to test James's theory about what would be accepted...maybe not on the Far East Wall of Beinn Eighe because we don't actually want bolt stubs littering an amazing crag, but whap a bolt in, say, Dracula at Duntelchaig, and see how long it lasts

Not to be controversial, but I don't think they're sufficiently interested in climbing for that. Perhaps when the likes of Kev Howett was involved, but now it seems more of a hillwalking body. I suspect retrobolting is seen as a minor fringe issue and the attitude would be that climbers can sort it out for themselves. 

Perhaps someone could write an opinion piece for Scottish Mountaineer and see if anything happens.

Or shall we organise a public meet perhaps in Inverness (we could see if the ledge would be willing to accommodate). We would need a chair and a panel of people who are well known and accepted within the community. 
We could start by looking at the guidelines as stated quite a few years ago. Then see where those have not been followed (I am deliberately staying away from broken as to not get people at each other’s throats). People can argue for /against. And we can see if a consensus of sorts can be reached?

This could be after a climbing event of sorts as, after all, we are climbers! We have more in common than with anyone else! That event would a small fee so that the ledge could get something for hosting it?

What do people think? Those questions need to be discussed. Perhaps the guidelines rewritten?

You're a brave man Erick!

Will there be a buffet?

Broccoli for the sport climbers. Pie and pints for the traddies? 

That’s just an East coast sport climber thing. The West coasters are all on McDonalds patties now.

I've only been to Brin once, so I'm not really invested in the topic. But one thing I don't understand is your hostile responses to Dave and Nathan.

Yesterday I had a broccoli and cauliflower cheese pie, in a pub, washed down with a pint. 

🤔😀

Dutch is like a foreign language to me - actually, it is a foreign language to me - so my recollection of the definite article and exact spelling might not be entirely accurate; but what sprang immediately to mind was 'Het Broccoli Vorwahl' from Uncle Alan's 'Kylie Moon' cartoon! 

I suspect it is all “heat of the moment” reaction. Online we all can be pretty flippant with others while being ourselves a bit touchy.

 I think I will actually try to organise a meet this autumn. I make no promises but were it to come to fruition I would invite people on here to come in person. I might even invite questions to be sent beforehand.
 

For the record I love both sport and trad. Places like  Moy Rock (Dingwall) ,  Fleet Crag , or the Loch Maree ones (cannot remember the names) are great venues and resources.

I do prefer trad and come from a valley in which it had all but disappeared  due to systematic bolting! The rock is mostly compact limestone but there is some great quartzite and stratas og sandstone which will take gear. Yet I could redpoint 7b+ Single pitch and did many multi pitch routes in 6b/c range there as a teen and I had NEVER seen a wire!!!

There is a significant majority of French climbers who simply do not have access to trad crags, knowledge and culture.

It is my view that the two disciplines can co-exist but participants on both sides of the divide need to make some compromises. We are all rockclimbers.

A bit of raw data that may be pertinent to the debate: Scotland has approximately 30,000 trad routes and approximately 2,500 sport routes.

I think that context is important when people express worries about 'Scotland turning into a worse version of Yorkshire limestone', etc.

(edited to remove the bulk of Erick's quote)

Presumably none of the sport routes are unrepeated trash. I’d guess a lot of the trad routes are. Probably only worth comparing the number of worthwhile routes (not that terrible routes aren’t worth repeating)

A few of the sport routes are! But no, you're right, it's just hard to estimate how many of the trad routes are 'worthwhile' (especially as we have a system where FAs decide how many stars the route should get, lol). I don't even know that that 30,000 figure covers absolutely verything, that's just what's currently in the online database.

If you do organise this Erick, I’ll endeavour to make it along.

Thanks for offering to run it, I think it could be a good way of bringing people together. 

That is the kind of figures that can indeed help in a debate on the topic. 
 

One other point I have been pondering was the fact of asking first ascentionists permission to bolt their trad route. Climbing has now been around long enough that there will be routes for which this is no longer an option! So what is to be done?

I really think the quicker we, as a community, get together and try to iron this out the better. There will always be grey areas, and some fiercely independent minded folks (hot headed some would say 😉) but the centre can come to some agreement.

 I had a couple of nice personal messages as a consequence of this thread. In one, I mention that my main aim is to avoid a cycle of resource waste : bolt rocks (finite resource), chop bolt (finite resource). 
What a terrible waste of time too! 
 

I am very grateful to those who give so much time and a not insignificant amount of their cash to bolt interesting sport lines. I wouldn’t do it.

 I also appreciate the historical importance, the bold approach of many a trad line.

People should fire away their thoughts on this thread.

I have never climbed Sky train. I don’t ever intend to as it does not inspire me. I have noticed that there weren’t any ascent logged on here. That’s not to say that it’s not ever climbed as many people do not log on this site.
 

It is an indication to the fact it isn’t popular. Does it mean that unpopular trad lines are fair game? Perhaps not, but we should try to turn as many stones as possible if a meet occurs.

 > One other point I have been pondering was the fact of asking first ascentionists permission to bolt their trad route. Climbing has now been around long enough that there will be routes for which this is no longer an option! So what is to be done?

This is often mentioned but I'm not super clear on why if you get somewhere first you get both veto power and the option to retro bolt the bit of rock that so other people may have climbed/want to climb. 

Agree, though you have to keep the old men who are proprietorial about 'their' routes on side.

Jokes (which I do also mean seriously) aside, as you'll know, it's not always a case of just getting somewhere first - establishing a new route often involves time spent seeking, cleaning, boldly going where no man has gone before, etc. I think it's fair enough that a first ascentionist gets a say in the matter and that their view carries more weight than Joe Bloggs in his armchair, but not so much that it automatically outweighs other considerations.

P.S. I also think it makes sense that the weight of first ascensionist opinion degrades over time - i.e. it's pretty reasonable to ask that the new route you poured your soul into not be bolted next week, but not so much if it was 30 years ago and everyone else wants bolts in it.

I went up to climb it one day a few years ago, we warmed up on The Prow which gave a memorable experience for some inventive gear placements and a bit of cunning at the top. As my second started up, the snow came down and within about 15 minutes the whole crag was blanket white so we had to abandon and run off.

Along with Gold Digger, it sort of made sense to go climb them all up there in a day (and the HVS too). AFAIK, the flake that took the gear at the crux is now no longer there so probably a much bolder proposition than it was before, but it has bolts now in any case.

I think if it comes down to taking a crowbar to rock to make sport routes out of old trad routes, that's starting to blur the lines of what's acceptable to me. As I mentioned before, by that rationale there's a lot of good trad routes ready to become sport climbs. 

I think we're now reaching a point where developers are running out of "good" sport crags that are applicable (crack-less, gear-less, no prior trad routes, MS statement confines etc. etc.) and after finding some that blur a grey area and they go ahead with development without checking whether they could be done as traditional climbs, or they don't care ("I got here first"). There seems to be a policy of "do now, worry later" and as Dave's intial comment, people start climbing there and then it's popular and no one questions why it happened the way it did.

Not to say I don't think there's a place for everyone to enjoy climbing, and I think that the importance of someones desire to sport climb is as great as mine is to go trad climbing. But surely we should be looking at this finite resource and try to leave it in as original a state as we possibly can? 

I'm with you up to the last sentence Nathan:

which sounds like a hard-line statement against sport climbing (and seems to contradict the previous sentence about there being a place for everything?)

While the 'leave no trace' ethic is obviously a good one to aim for in the outdoors generally, I don't think it can be applied without hypocrisy to sport climbing specifically, not if you've ever hooked those whitened cracks you can see a mile off in the Northern Corries or trundled a loose block off a route or skittered down a loose descent path or climbed under an overhang where the chalk never gets washed off, etc etc.

In reply to:

There's an awful lot of chat on here from a bunch of people with broadly similar views.

It looks to me as if the problem is that there are a small number of individuals who either don't care about those views or have very different views.

We're unlikely to hear those voices on here and I wonder how likely it is that they'd engage in any way?

And I almost didn’t put it in!

I’ve definitely altered routes in the past, be that trundling, axe scars, brushed holds etc. and those are permanent alterations. Definitely not a hard line statement at all, I just think we should be trying not to bolt crack climbs or alter routes so we can bolt them.

It wasn’t necessarily about not bolting at all, I like sport climbing and I’ve enjoyed climbing at crags that “could” have been trad cliffs but were bolted instead, so I’d be a hypocrite to say otherwise. 

1% of sport climbers bolt 99% of sport climbs.

It's the problem but also, in a way, the solution. If all climbing development (sport or other) had to be settled first by committee, there would have been all kinds of barriers put up against climbs that we now value. It's not an ideal status quo for obvious reasons, but it is in keeping with the history of climbing, i.e. highly motivated individuals doing largely what they please. It's also hard to argue they're wrong if the evidence of what climbers do, as opposed to what they say, suggests their actions are widely approved (in the case of bolted routes being more popular than trad predecessors).

If individuals don't want to go through a process of consent to have their drilling approved (and I can understand why), what can you do? Unfortunately it seems the remaining option is direct action, à la Tony. Bolters who stretch the guidelines can't really object to this, because unilateral action is only a mirror to what they do. Obviously we don't want egregious chopping, like Upper Cave in 2010, but mostly people can't be bothered abseiling multiple times down a cliff with a grinder, so it is naturally limited to when feelings are strong. And if feelings aren't that strong, well, maybe it just doesn't matter very much, and that route is better with bolts.

Did the Upper Cave bolt chopper ever come forward with a reason?

My suspicion is that whoever it was wasn't against the bolts, they just wanted the old bolts replaced and either didn't know how or couldn't be bothered to do it themselves.

I think it was 'trad only, nae balls, f**k off' or something like that.

That was it, although I can't vouch for the final part. I had my first visit to Upper Cave the day after it had presumably been chalk-daubed on the rock and left for home, more than a little disappointed. I think it was Sheppy - top bloke - who very quickly reinstated the damaged / missing bolts.

Unfortunately there are a few sandstone crags with viable, nice trad lines that have been bolted in the NW. Some with bolts right beside splitter jamming cracks.

Thank you for considering taking this on. It's been clear for some time that there is a controversy simmering along. As someone who enjoys both trad and sport across the Highlands, I can see all aspects of the arguments. I have been very surprised by some crags that have been bolted recently (clearly trad protectable on good rock, unthinkable to bolt these in the places where I grew up further South), but equally many are new discoveries that no-one could be bothered to go and develop from a trad perspective. And they do offer delightful sport climbing, so perhaps this is actually fine!?

I wonder if, should the meeting successfully result in some "Highland Bolting Guidelines", that it should be linked to a prospective "Highland Bolt Fund"------receipt of money from the fund should indicate agreement with the Guidelines??

What would be interesting to known is the current trend in development.

I.e. How many new routes in each of the last five years and what was the split between new trad and new sport in each year.

If we are maintaining the 60trad:5sport ratio then perhaps there just isn’t a problem. If however the new development ratio has flipped such that new sport far out strips new trad and the trend is to continue increasing towards sport then maybe we have to think about why that is and the consequences of it.

Anyone here have access to the SMC database and can pull out the numbers?

I can't see an obvious way of getting the data on the last 5 years although I dare say it's possible.

I don't think that the ratio or number of sport routes is that relevant. It's the type of places/routes that are being bolted that seems to be the issue. I think most people are ok with the Moys and Fleet Crags, less so with some of the other stuff.

Sure the odd inappropriate sport route/venue isn’t desirable but if these continue to be a drop in a proverbial ocean of trad is it really a problem?

Maybe there is a problematic tsunami of inappropriate sport, without seeing numbers it’s hard to really tell.

This is from Roger's latest new routes blog (worth a monthly read available at https://smc.org.uk/climbs/blog) 

"the number of new routes for this year’s edition of the SMC Journal has now exceeded 1000 – thanks to all the contributors. Some stats – the average length is around 25m, around 90% are rock routes (15% of the total being Sport; 4+ to 7c+), grade ranges I-V,7 (winter – harder ones were done, but not reported to SMC), M-E9 (trad). A large swath of the trad routes are in the Severe to HVS range – new routing is obviously for everyone."

So that suggests the new development split is 80% trad to 20% sport. How much of that 20% could reasonably be considered inappropriate? Maybe 10%*?

So maybe 2% of total rock development is questionable. Doesn’t sound overly concerning? 

*made up number

We could flip that around and say that if it's only 10% of sport routes that some climbers have an issue with it's no skin off the developer's nose to leave those ones out. 

Indeed, I agree. 

Is your concern regarding routes like Oganach and Blos the loss of those specific routes as potential trad climbs, or the precedent set by bolting such things, or both?

Personally I think that:

1)bolted venues should be mostly compact rock which don’t lend themselves to trad.

2) a venue can have a mix of style and that lines that entirely and easily protectable should be left boltless. Weem rock used to be (perhaps still is?) with a great E2 besides cool 7s.

3) some crags are natural trad climb and should never be bolted.

4) some climbs were historically important and were bold. They should never be retro bolted.

important considerations:

A.if we are too strict with my numbered points above, then only shitty crags are left for bolting.

B. Creativity can be curbed by too many “rules”.

C. A strict authoritarian approach will only bolster rebellion. 

I agree with all of that. I guess the issues arise around edge cases. For example Marlina and MacTalla, two of the best sport routes in Scotland, have been led on trad gear - so you could make a case that those should be trad routes. But who's calling for that?

For new crags how about:

Finders keepers, losers weepers?

😉

That's a reasonable start, Erick. Totally agree with (1) and (2). Your (3) I agree with but it's a bit vague and perhaps already covered in (1) and (2). With (4) I guess it depends which routes (just how historically important?) and is going to come down to individual cases. Was anything at Farrletter historically important for example? I like the way that crag has gone; it seems to me very much a sport crag in nature with one good trad route which should remain.

I'd like to see a re-stating of the position that mountain crags should be left alone, with the exception of Tunnel Wall (the horse has been bolted there ). 

There really should be a strong presumption against retro-bolting full stop. That doesn't mean it won't happen, and in some cases justifiably, but it's surely a sensible starting position.

Just so everyone’s informed, here’s a short history of all the retro-bolted routes in the NW/Inverness area. The ‘reasons’ used are in brackets. These are not MY reasons, so don’t come back to me!

2004 Creag nan Luch Unrecorded E4 now Astar 6a+ (Bolter unaware of the trad route)

2007 Am Fasgadh The Crack E6 now 7c ( Bolter was FA and thought route better as a sport route)

2011 Brin Afrocelt Sound System E6 incorporated into The One and Only 7a (Bolter unaware of unrecorded trad route)

2011 Goat Crag Barefoot in the Park E2 ( Bolter thought route was poor and better as 3 good sport routes)

2012 Goat Crag Last of the Grand Old Masters E5 incorporated into Bamboozle 6c+ (Bolt was FA and thought it was better as a sport route)

2014 Moy Magnificrack E3 now 6a+ (Bolted on FA recommendation)

2021 Glen Marksie Hiroshima Grooves HVS now 6a (Bolted on FA recommendation)

2021 The Bastion Bastionard E2 now 6a+ (Bolted on FA recommendation)

2024 Brin Skytrain E2 incorporated into Archimedes 7a (Crucial flake crack cleaned/trundled)

It would be an excellent adventurous challenge to do them all in a day, trad or sport!

There was also Farrletter, but that was signed off by Robert Durran and Fiend as OK… 

So 9 routes over 20 years. At this rate it’ll take 300 years to retro-bolt Ardmair and thousands of years to retro-bolt the NW. 

Ian Taylor

Some good history there Ian. I guess to be accurate, Austrocelt Sound System was recorded but the sport route FA wasn't to know that since it wouldn't have appeared in the journal for another 15 months or so.

Thanks for that Iain. 
It does help to have some background: keeps the heads cooler.

Thanks Ian, good to have this all written down. Appreciate you taking the time to put it out there. 

I don't think I'm too worried about Ardmair being retro-bolted. I am a bit worried about what would happen if a new Burning Desire was discovered somewhere. Depending on who found it, there's now a real chance of such an obvious trad line being bolted.

I think the other thing Nathan was particularly worried about was whether the prow or gold digger are going to be retro bolted? Not that anyone here necessarily knows

I'm not a bit worried, as I'm not lazy I would just remove the bolts.

Happy to help out if you decide to do the same for the likes of Oganach (6b) and I'm sure others would offer too. It's not another Burning Desire but it is a bolted splitter crack.

Would you also replace the soil and heather so the crack can't be seen again?

I don't have a dog in that fight. Looks like lots of folk enjoy that one.

If I wanted to climb little 10m cracks, then I would just crack on and do all the ones I walk past every weekend. 

I feel sypathetic to both sides of the bolting/ argument, and I certainly understand Dave's worry about what would happen if a new Burning Desire was found. However, as someone that spends a fair bit of time developing new rock (admittedly mostly bouldering, but some trad and a solitary sport route recently) I'm increasingly of the opinion that if you don't make the considerable effort to find, clean and climb these new routes yourself then you're not really in a strong position to complain if someone else does and bolts it. 

Perhaps controversial, but as I see it at the moment, sport developers are the ones getting out there finding and developing new lower altitude outcrops. Meanwhile trad climbers are repeating routes at established crags and complaining when crags they didn't make the effort to find and clean are being bolted. I might be wrong, but I just don't see the appetite for trad development that sport developers have, yet trad opinions are always the loudest on UKC.

How do you determine or quantify the percentage that the word 'some' constitutes? Surely that's fairly relevant. Is it 5-10% or is it 90-95%?

This definitely isn't true. There is lots of development happening. I think the difference is whether things get repeated. People seem much more inclined to repeat new sport routes. Maybe its because there are fewer routes, maybe there's a presumed quality if someone bothered to bolt it, maybe sport climbing is just more fun.

Trad routes don't seem to get much attention until they're in a guidebook with a topo. e.g. Handsome Hog (E3 5c) which is en route to  Rolling Wall (Diabaig) and likely better than anything there.

Randomly, I've seconded that route at Ugly Crag. Thought it was good. Forgive me if ive missed your point, but how come you've linked specifically to that route? What's that got to do with this discussion?

I guess I'm not talking about adding individual routes to developed crags, but finding and developing entire crags. Rightly or wrongly, these days, if trad climbers get there first then it becomes a trad crag, if sport climbers find it it becomes a sport crag. I guess my point was that I just dont see the trad climbers out there making the same efforts to find the crags.  But that's great if I'm wrong and there's loads of trad development happening that I don't know about. If that's happening alongside sport development, is there a problem?

My point is that there are loads of new (well that’s 2000) trad crags they just seem not to be getting any repeats whereas sport crags do. 
 

anyway it’s a little irrelevant since I don’t see why the first person to find a bit of rock shouldn’t get to decide what happens to it. 

I see. Yes, not sure I'd say a crag that was developed 25yrs ago and is in 2 guidebooks is new! Also, the fact that its not logged on UKC doesnt mean its not been repeated. But anyway, that's off topic.

As to your 2nd point. That's a hard one, and ultimately there won't ever be a satisfactory resolution. In the past it was always the case that trad was the 'default' and only under certain circumstances was bolting accepted. It doesn't seem to work like that anymore, but I don't know how you'd manage that. Which is why I was simply imploring that those that feel strongly about trad development should be getting out there and doing it!

They are . Stacks of stuff is getting done all over the place. In terms of entirely new crags, the Mallaig road and Galloway have had so much development that they're going to be getting their own guides / mini-guides.

Similar to Mike’s reply, there’s at least 500 new routes on the Road to the Isles that’s been developed by Lochaber climbers. Maybe 50 of those are sport routes and almost all of the sport crags see multiple visits each week and the trad crags don’t. All of the crags are of a similar height, the rock quality is the same across the board so it’s not as if the trad routes are just in grotty wee hovels that are unpleasant. 

Is it a result of a convenience based society that we live in now? It’s a lot easier to sport climb but arguably it’s a lot more effort to find and clean and then bolt sport routes. It seems like the motivation of bolters feeds into this convenience  that we’ve become so accustomed to.

I’ve done a few new routes and they’ve all been trad, mainly because I don’t own a drill and have never placed a bolt, but I take a lot of joy in finding and climbing new routes at undeveloped crags local to me so I can see the appeal for doing the same with bolts. I don’t think a “first come first serve” rule is particularly helpful as then it just becomes a free for all which leads to bolted crack lines like we’ve seen already. 

That's great, sounds like there's loads of new trad development going on. Keep it up! I'm not tapped into climbing in Lochaber so I'm not aware of what's going on but sounds like the balance is in favour of trad, which is good, no?

Genuine question: is there concern that these new trad crags might be retro-bolted, or that the bolted crags should have been developed as trad? 

First come first served, but also, don’t be a dic…?

The bolters are also developing trad crags.

The routes that have been bolted, in my humble opinion, are featureless and would not give good natural lines.

I’ll give you a belay if you want to come over.

So, summarising this thread:

 There’s loads of mediocre (I’m sure “spectacular” in the eyes of the developers) new crags and routes - trad and sport - to develop in the area. Nobody has actually bolted anything that was an egregious loss to trad climbing.

Perhaps you should just carry on as you are rather than spaffing off on UKC…

For those who haven't seen it in the flesh, this is what Oganach is like (because '10m crack' almost exaggerates its stature):

You climb an awkward bulging groove to a hands-off rest on a ledge. You then pull up on an enormous jutting jug, then you start jamming. It's about 6m from here to the top.

This is why I was asking whether its the route itself or the precedent that's more of an issue - for me personally, I can't get too worked up about the route (or Blos next to it, which could be equally well protected by cams), but I can see some merit in the precedent argument.

As a counterpoint, perhaps it's quite nice to have a few minor bolted cracks out there, so that people who don't own a rack of cams can put their toe in the water and have a wee shot at crack climbing?

Hi Gaz, its great that you are out a lot seeking out new problems and routes and developing areas. 

Your point about only sport crags being developed isn't accurate. Some of my friends are (obsessed) constantly looking for, finding and developing new trad crags in the Highlands and put them on the SMC database. 

P.S. - when are you writing your bouldering (opus) guidebook? Still waiting  

Hi Simon, hopefully you'll have seen from my replies to James, Mike and Nathan that I'm gladly standing corrected about trad vs sport development. I guess it just shows how we're all on our own bubbles. Most of the development I'm aware of in my localish area (Inverness/Easter Ross/Wester Ross) is sport and bouldering. 

But more importantly, if there's all this trad development going on, why all the worry when the occasional crag gets bolted? 

I guess its because if you develop a trad crag or boulder you do some cleaning, but if you develop a new sport crag you are physically drilling/damaging the rock and screwing loads of silver bits of metal everywhere, so just being factual it's more destructive and environmentally worse, irrespective of the ethics debate about should it be bolted or not.

I am very surprised by some of the Loch Maree newish sport crags. I had a day at An Teanga (may be misspelt), and I was quite surprised that it was bolted as some bolt lines follow protectable cracks. In the Loch Maree case it just seems quite (whats the right word)... bold to bolt a crag, in a sensitive nature recovery area without landowner permission (I was told this is the case, but can be corrected). I think that stuff like this should be discussed and out in the open to allow conversation, then if the majority, and landowner agree - go ahead. I realise this may be too much to hope for, but seems a fairer way. 

I wish people would drop this bit from arguments about bolts.

It's true that in a miniscule way, drilling a hole in a piece of rock and inserting a piece of steel is causing damage and littering. But it's SO miniscule in the grand scheme of ways that humans damage the environment for purposes of leisure as to be nearly irrelevant. The most significant environmental impact bolts have is visual/aesthetic, and even then it's usually only climbers who are affected. Virtually nobody who isn't a climber is ever even going to see the bolts at a crag like An Teanga.

You may wish people drop this from the argument,  but it's factual as you then acknowledge. Each individual bolt is small, but multiple that up to the 100's of bolts at a crag and that's very different. And it's not just about asthetic/ visual impact, it is damaging the rock. You may not have the same interest in conservation as some folk, but that doesn't mean the issue isn't there. 

All I'm saying is there should be discussion,  agreement/concensus and consent (land owner). 

In theory I sympathise with this traditional and  fairly binary ethic: (sandstone crack = trad therefore don't bolt), but these days I struggle to get hot under the collar about places like An Teanga. As this thread and your own post has made clear, there's plenty of trad development going on by those keen to do it and there are hundreds of trad routes going unrepeated. Despite rock being described as a 'finite resource', there appears to be plenty of it for us all to play on. Rather than worrying about the very few examples of potential trad lines being bolted, why not go and climb the unrepeated trad routes? 

It's not always miniscule though and it's complex (leave no trace' is a valuable guiding ethic unless other situations make it impractical) and bolting things like hand jamming cracks is just so unnecessary. On the positive side, bolted belays/lower offs can protect top-outs and descents with sensitive flora or fauna. Equally sports climbs can generate more traffic (and so more problems), especially from those less aware of outdoor conservation and ethical considerations. I also think better safety education is required as outdoor sport climbs have extra risk considerations (some I'd prefer we call something else than 'sport', especially in my old  Peak area where loose rock on bolted routes can be a real issue of awareness,  whereas for similar trad, the situation is more expected).

Hi Gaz, I do like to go to existing trad crags and repeat routes, both ones that have been climbed lots, or unrepeaded ones if they are a grade I can climb! I also like trying some new sport crags, but as is probably obvious trad climb more than sport.

An Teanga is an interesting case study to me, as I've visited, know the area (whereas there are lots of other crags both trad and sport I don't know). 

You probably know, it's in an interesting clough line. When I first went I thought wow this is probably good bird habitat with the combination of lots of vegetation, the crags and sheltering topography. I wondered if there were any schedule 1 birds there. I don't have an answer to this question,  but it made me think that bolting areas like this (it is reasonably extensive) . There should be some investigation into species / what's there. Do you know if that happened before it was developed? I don't, but suspect not and this goes back to the whole transparency/ discussion/ agreement part. The landowner/ ghilllie would be able to say if ring ouzels use it or not etc. 

And I think it's different if u r developing a boulder or trad lines, it's softer, you notice stuff on the approach,  being there, whereas a hammer drill would obviously scare anything off.

Regards the ' there's a crack it should/ shouldn't be bolted debate', I'm less concerned with. Its about transparency, communication and agreement. 

For balance, could you confirm if you routinely care about landownership when it comes to anything other than sport climbing?

When so many of our custodians of the land have committed so many crimes against the environment, I’m rather puzzled by your veneration of their input on this matter.

The habitat destruction from cleaning (clearing?) a crag for development (trad or sport) is far, far greater the placing bolts on a rockface. To be honest, from a pure development perspective (not subsequent use) - one would imagine sport may be less destructive due to not damaging the often sensitive top outs.

I'm mindful of ownership if something is being changed / altered, or if it means disturbance to wildlife, or I guess property/people. So for example I wouldn't go and climb at a crag whilst there's a bird ban on. 

I've never been to An Teanga and to be frank, am not in a rush to go.  So I can't comment about specifics of that crag.

What do you mean by conservation in this context? Leaving rock faces in their natural state? That will rule out trad climbing too then, on any cliff which is less than perfectly solid (i.e. most of them). If damaging rock faces is a major concern, you should probably concentrate your protests towards builders, civil engineers etc

If this is all you're saying, then I agree with you. Yay!

As you say, both trash the area. I was a climbing visitor to the Llanberis pass in the 60's, look at the entire area now. Similar with Stanage or any popular cliff.

I like the place.

It feels remote, especially if nobody else is there, but it’s not far from the road.

Last time we were there a bird was circling round and making some sound, don’t think it was a woodcock, it was pale underneath. 

For me it's the precedent. I can't get worked up about the route itself; from what was originally described to me (and then clarified a couple of years ago), I was picturing a big splitter! But bolting obvious crack-lines sets a precedent, and after that point there doesn't seem to be a logical argument why this is ok but not something really good

I can see that argument from an economic standpoint (e.g. students who haven't done much trad). But it really isn't difficult to club together a basic rack between a group of you.

Hi all,

May has been crazy busy for me. Family visits, school trip abroad (being stuck by the motorway with 77 15 years olds in full traffic and no toilets while trying to make the ferry due to a mangle tyre was fairly interesting) and big family Birthdays.

In June, I intend to go speak to Duncan at the Ledge to see if something can be organised there. 

The debate is interesting, multiple things to take into account which I will try to summarise:

1) climbing ethics 

2) climbing etiquette 

3) finite resources 

4) environmental damage to rock

5) environmental damage to species (mostly by footfall)

6) land ownership 

If the ledge isn’t able to host us, another venue will need to be found.

The debate is important, I feel more than ever that a friendly meet, mirroring the reasonable tone of this thread, is needed. 

I have written on this before but will repeat: at the end of the day we have more in common than with anyone else. We are climbers and we love the futile pursuit of climbing up something by the hardest way we can. This deviancy is what sets us as a niche group and should be federating not polarising.

I don't buy that argument at all ....cracks take cheap passive pro as well... if you're living in Scotland there is a community and clubs to help and if you are driving to Scotland you can afford pro. It's also flying in the face of UK trad ethics and, as I said above, crags are not indoor walls in a nice setting.... there are additional safety and responsibility issues as well. If someone wants to learn crack climbing skills on a trad route, just set up a top rope.

No argument from me on any of that.

I predominantly climb trad but did enjoy the ease of stick clipping and then top roping this line.

Not a fan of bolting cracks but at same time if it was left as trad id probably never get on it and fail so badly at crack climbing