UKC

Australian Chris Webb Parsons (22) has repeated The Wheel of Life V16 (Font 8c+) in the Grampians (Australia) first established by Japan's Dai Koyamada. The Wheel of Life has 68 moves.

Is this a boulder problem? Is it a route? Or as 8a.nu have defined, is it a boulder-route?

Whatever it is, it is one amazing piece of climbing by Chris Webb Parsons.

View the video here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=575

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Very impressive. Every move looked pretty controlled and elegant, which is quite something for a V16 problem - which I would have expected to include at least a few desperate lunges!

In reply to MikePemberton:

Think that's the point.

In reply to seagull:

Interesting stuff on 8a.nu about the grading problem. It seems to me that actually the French grading system can cope with this type of thing ok as it has route grades, Font grades and Font traverse grades. As Koyamada has said of his own creation "this is not bouldering". Equally, it is not a route and therefore the logical grade to give it would be 8c+ (font traverse grade) which is different to 8c+ as a straight bouldering grade.

The only reason this system falls down is that the problem is in an area where V grades are used and therefore Koyamada gave Wheel Of Life V16 as it's harder than the V15 problems in the same area (these are also "boulder routes"). V16 has been translated to Font 8c+ but that aint right.

The solution seems simple. Instead of the hybrid 8Cc+ type grade that 8a.nu are proposing utilise the fact that we have this unnecessary two system grade situation in bouldering already.

Font grades for boulder problems, V grades for "boulder routes"? Then everyone would know where they were. Don't suppose the Americans (or the French) would go for it but it would work.

Of course there would still be the problem of where to draw the line between problem & "boulder route" but that wouldn't really matter (and would make for lots of interesting discussions). At least we wouldn't have this ridiculous situation where a 68 move "problem" with numerous rests/chalking up points etc is given a bouldering grade.

In reply to seagull:

Some climbers in the US give a YDS grade (5.11a....5.13b) for traverses. Only on a local scale though.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Don't think that works either though Mick as you need definition between route and "boulder route" grades. Traverses and link ups shouldn't get the same grade as routes as they don't have the same difficulties (rope & harness, clips, psychological factor, difficulty of working the moves etc). They are different but then they are also different to boulder problems so they need a different system imo.

In reply to seagull:

Awesome effort!

In reply to the grading bit, personally I think it should just get a route grade and that be the end of it.

In reply to seagull:


Sounds like an analogous situation to DWS-ing though and that manages with French/Sport grades.


Chris

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

That was what I originally thought about this type of problem but it doesn't work. An example is Staminaband which used to get given route 8b+ (informally) and now gets Font 8a. At 24(ish) moves it's certainly route length and the climbing is probably comparable to at least hard 8b if not 8b+ but because you can work it by stepping off at any point and don't have to make any clips it's just not the same. Font 8a doesn't really work either so.........

In reply to Chris Craggs:

DWS routes getting sport grades makes perfect sense though as you have even greater dificulty working the moves and you CERTAINLY have the psychological aspect!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Are they playing that music in the cave? That'd drive me bazerk (unless it's to scare off the dingos or something).

In reply to andi turner: yeah some english guy called andi e or something was there in a nova.....

Seagull
On the point of grades, once you have redpointed a route over a long period, how much do you think clipping and the potential to fall really matter, and how much difference does it really make dogging or toproping a route rather than being able to jump onto sections of a traverse? In my (limited) experience the difference is not great, and I think therefore sport grades are suitable for this type of effort.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Hmm his chalk-bag clearly touches the floor about 2 minutes from the end - F8c I reckon...

In reply to TimS:

ROFL




As I mentioned it DOES make a difference (in my opinion). I think most people who've redpointed 8c will agree that it's harder than doing a Font 8a+ traverse or link up despite the climbing being a similar difficulty.

Psychologically doesn't just mean fear of taking a fall by the way. There's a lot more fannying about involved in redpoint attempts on a route than on a "boulder route" (plus you need a belayer!) and this can make the mental strain greater.

Some interesting views here.......

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,7295.msg106955.html#msg106955

In reply to Bulls Crack:

I noticed that too! Invalidates the ascent IMHO

The Ent ™

In reply to seagull:

Yeah see what you mean. But still think route grade is more applicable than a boulder grade tbh ... or just V10/8b or something like that

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

What I'm saying is that it isn't fair to say "this problem is route grade 8b" cos it's not the same thing.

Using V grades solely for long problems and Font grades for "proper" bouldering would make this unnecessary though.

It's just an idea but I'm yet to see any valid reason why it wouldn't work.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I'm no expert on grading at all but i feel that when it comes to bouldering at V12 plus...you shouldn't be able to rest because each move is so difficult or each hold is so small or negative that you have to keep going or you will just give in. I feel that watching routes like Jade or Dreamtime are excellent examples...also Chris Sharmas "Witness the Fitness" (don't know the name of the route) looks way more intense and desperate.
But that was amazing! But I don't feel it should be V16.

In reply to Sircumfrins:


It's "Witness the Fitness".


With your extensive video-watching experience, what do you feel would be a more appropriate grade? If you shouldn't be able to rest at V12 and above, is it only V11?

In reply to TimS:
i think it makes a huge difference working stuff on a rope.. a font 'x' on a route always feels desperate compared to off the floor, even in isolation. most of my mates have similar views..
i think the problem with stuff like this is that boulderers will say 'it's not a proper problem' if you give it a boulder grade but route climbers will say 'it's not a proper route' if you give it a route grade.. i like the idea of using font for boulders and V for boulder-routes, but it'll never get accepted. maybe we need a new prefix - T 16 or 8c+ or whatever for these creations; only problem would be getting people to respect the new grades like they would normal ones. need to convince the strong-boys to use them or it'd never catch on.

to the guy above: out of interest, do you boulder 'V12 and above'? have you tried this and decided that it's not worth v16? if so please say - what grade is it?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
effort to the guy btw, he must've been frickin psyched topping out! (sorry, 'rather excited', almost forgott myself there)

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Not getting into the grade or route/boulder problem debate, but will say one thing: what a great bit of climbing...just flows really nicely .

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: i can do about 5 moves before i'm pumped.dont know how people can hold on for that long.

In reply to mark s:

Yes, it's quite amazing isn't it?

That's stamina!

In reply to fool: Like i said i don't know how to grade problems but I would say you couldn't hang around on any of the problems on Witness like(until you're out the cave)you could on the Wheel of Life.
Most of the the holds in the rest spots were big by advanced climbers standards so I'm not sure...Definitely under V16 though probably V13-V14. We willonly know when more top climbers give it a go and give their opinion.

In reply to Sircumfrins:

Witness The Fitness is a different kettle of fish. Off the top of my head it's about 25 moves max so less than half the length of WOL. I agree that it looks a much more intense piece of climbing (with no real rests and a truly hard crux move) but then again nobody's actually ever given it a grade.

Sharma said it was harder than Esperanza (a comparable problem in style at V14) and Fred Nicole said it was the "hardest line in this style he has ever climbed" (so "f***ing hard" in other words).

V15? Harder? As you say it's only possible to tell when these things get more repeats and the grades settle down.

In reply to Sircumfrins:
I think if you're proposing a substantial downgrading you should provide a bit of info on your background to add credibility.
What's the hardest video you've watched? How many goes did it take you? What's the hardest video you've flashed? How long did 'Wheel of Life' take you to watch compared to other hard videos? Do you ever do any of that 'Free-Viewing'?

In reply to Serpico:



I'm certainly not advocating downgrading anything that I've not done. However I do think the grade problem is worth discussing further. I was hoping that Fiend might have some comment on this seeing as grades are his second favourite subject (after top-roping obviously).

abarro

The 8a.nu article is proposing exactly what you have. A new classification for "boulder routes". I feel that this is actually less likely to be accepted than my proposal as (as you say) it's difficult to get people to respect a whole new type of system. When we already have two systems being used for all types of problem it seems to make perfect sense to use one for one type and one for the other thus killing two birds with one stone. Simplification and seperation both of which I reckon are necessary.

I know this is all hot air and would be very difficult to get people to adopt but in my eyes it certainly makes a lot more sense than E0.

In reply to Sircumfrins: "Most of the the holds in the rest spots were big by advanced climbers standards so I'm not sure"


They look big, but when you see 'em first hand they are, in fact, crap.

Nearly all the holds in Hollow Mountain Cave are much smaller, more slopey, and harder to hold, than they appear to be on video.

I went down there expecting to do some of the easier problems, thinking these guys must just be soft, and couldn't even hang most of the holds statically...

In reply to Steve McQueen:

I was hoping that might be the case - even the larger holds all seem to slope quite a lot.

Seagull:
Imagine all those poor peakies you'll rob of a font 8A tick when you tell them that staminaband is v11 boulderroute grade

In reply to TimS:

Yeah but that includes me so it proves I'm being impartial.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: People on these climbing forums in general can't handle a persons view. Don't people listen to what i have said before? Can't anyone actually see the point i am trying to make? Give your opinion and move on with your life...don't attack someone for giving theirs. Jin-ku-ya.

In reply to Sircumfrins:

Er.........I think Steve McQueen's tried to answer your point and so have I?

In reply to Sircumfrins: I think that's why Koyamada suggested a route grade orginally (9a? I can't remember)as this more accurately describes the nature of the climbing.

The V16 is made up of several shorter but really intense problems which have been confirmed at the grade.

Also, Chris Webb Parsons generally dispatches routes in the 8b - 8c category pretty damn quick, so if the link took him over a month I'd say it's hard. I think really it's just a testament to the fact that he's climbing really well, that he made the thing look like he was cruising it.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Bring out the old UK tech grades!!

I actually think these could be useful for describing problems better. A 68 move problem could get an overall french route grade and a seperate number for the hardest move done in isolation.

I think UK tech grades worked quite well up to about 6b. But 6b became such a wide grade that it was not that useful, except you knew you weren't on a 6c I suppose.

But the principle of single move grades always seemed a good one to me.

In reply to stp:

Using the tech grade for the hardest move just gives a bit more information and unfortunately not a lot really as by your own admission they go to cock after 6b anyway.

It doesn't solve the problem as you're still proposing using route grades for problems which isn't right. As discussed, working and redpointing a route as opposed to a long problem is a totally different proposition and as such shouldn't be graded using the same system.

In reply to seagull:

I meant the UK system either modified or a completely new scale focusing on hardest move/short section would be very useful. It's almost a measure of how much power you need to get up something (assuming a reasonable level of good technique).


A move is a move no matter where it is and that's what's cool about the UK tech grade. It's that consistency I like.


I don't see them as that different really. Route grades have always seemed fitting for long problems/traverses. Obviously a boulder is that much more accessible so, grade for grade, you're likely to do it in less time and perhaps climb a bit harder ultimately, but that's all really.

In reply to stp:

Ah OK. So not the UK tech system as is. I agree this would be useful, a decent system of grading the hardest individual move wherever it is, but it's another issue I think.

>

Very true. But it falls to bits at the top end as we both agree. I used to have a very good idea of what a 6b move was and 6c and 7a. But with the unwillingness of people to continue the open ended system it all got messy. Based on moves which were graded then (crux of Agincourt 7a, crux of Hubble 7b) then moves of English 8a have almost certainly been done on some problems. However this sounds ridiculous to most people.


For reasons stated above (and particularly stuff mentioned in the UKB thread) I disagree. A route is a route and a long problem is something totally different. It makes sense to differentiate between them with different grade systems just as it makes sense to have a seperate system again for "proper" boulder problems.

If your idea of a revamped UK tech system were to be implemented then it could accompany each of the three systems and work very nicely indeed. In fact the whole thing would make perfect simple sense then imvho.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Interesting ad underneath that for fitlads.net. Has UKC thought about offering them some space, or is ukbouldering more their sort of thing, do you think?

jcm

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Mick, thanks for posting this, I will ignore the arguement and just say "Awesome!".

A brillinat climb and in complete control, just magic to watch.

Scott

In reply to mark s:


My thoughts exactly* god alone knows how he's resting and shaking out on those open hand slopers and a heel hook! Impressive stuff.

Re grading: Who cares if it's Vx or Font Y or French Z, you only need to see the description with 60+ moves and one of those numbers to know it's a somewhat unusual stamina monster with some hard climbing thrown in to boot.

jk

*Er, well... more like 3 moves

In reply to andi turner:

The music was being played by the guy underneath the roof you can see in shot, who was with them but apparantly not with them if you know what i mean!