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Simon Lee speaks to climbing legend, entrepreneur and first person to climb 9a, Ben Moon...
vimeo.com/75374593
vimeo.com/75374593
In reply to MattDTC: Credit should be given to UKB for doing the interview even if they're rude about UKC all the time.
I thought the bit that was really surprising was where he said he had hardly done any multipitch trad climbing. I sort of figured most British climbers of his age would have at least dabbled in the longer British mountain routes was starting out. I also thought I remembered reading about Ben trying to free one of the Strone Ulladale routes in the late 80s with Dawes, Pritchard and that sort of crew, but maybe that's my memory playing tricks on me. I was also sure I read in OTE about him going to the Indian Himalayas in the early 90s but must have got that wrong. I'm sure Johnny Dawes tried some himalayan peak and joined the illustrious roll call of those who have dropped a boot off a ledge halfway up very large mountains!
I thought the bit that was really surprising was where he said he had hardly done any multipitch trad climbing. I sort of figured most British climbers of his age would have at least dabbled in the longer British mountain routes was starting out. I also thought I remembered reading about Ben trying to free one of the Strone Ulladale routes in the late 80s with Dawes, Pritchard and that sort of crew, but maybe that's my memory playing tricks on me. I was also sure I read in OTE about him going to the Indian Himalayas in the early 90s but must have got that wrong. I'm sure Johnny Dawes tried some himalayan peak and joined the illustrious roll call of those who have dropped a boot off a ledge halfway up very large mountains!
In reply to TobyA:
I also thought I remembered reading about Ben trying to free one of the Strone Ulladale routes in the late 80s with Dawes, Pritchard and that sort of crew, but maybe that's my memory playing tricks on me.
No, your memory isn't playing tricks on you; -
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=45474
I also thought I remembered reading about Ben trying to free one of the Strone Ulladale routes in the late 80s with Dawes, Pritchard and that sort of crew, but maybe that's my memory playing tricks on me.
No, your memory isn't playing tricks on you; -
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=45474
In reply to MattDTC:
Really ? Maybe I'm out of date but I thought Gullich was credited with that particular achievement ?
> ....first person to climb 9a, Ben Moon...
Really ? Maybe I'm out of date but I thought Gullich was credited with that particular achievement ?
In reply to MJ: Good! Perhaps Ben meant alpine style multipitch rather than UK 2 real ropelength type routes!
Also his comments on the Simpson affair were interesting too.
Also his comments on the Simpson affair were interesting too.
In reply to GrahamD: Watch the interview.
In reply to GrahamD: Watch the vid - IIRC Ondra thinks Hubble is 9a, hence Moon's ascent would be the first. I think that's right anyway.
In reply to TobyA:
That is correct. The trip was set up by myself so that I could photograph Dawes and Co. on Strone Uladale for my first book, Eyes to the Hills. The team Dawes brought with him was indeed Pritchard and Moon. Awesome. The year was 1990, I think. We were there for a week in September and they did the first ascent of Moskil Grooves.
> (In reply to MattDTC) Credit should be given to UKB for doing the interview even if they're rude about UKC all the time.
>
> I thought the bit that was really surprising was where he said he had hardly done any multipitch trad climbing. I sort of figured most British climbers of his age would have at least dabbled in the longer British mountain routes was starting out. I also thought I remembered reading about Ben trying to free one of the Strone Ulladale routes in the late 80s with Dawes, Pritchard and that sort of crew, but maybe that's my memory playing tricks on me.
>
> I thought the bit that was really surprising was where he said he had hardly done any multipitch trad climbing. I sort of figured most British climbers of his age would have at least dabbled in the longer British mountain routes was starting out. I also thought I remembered reading about Ben trying to free one of the Strone Ulladale routes in the late 80s with Dawes, Pritchard and that sort of crew, but maybe that's my memory playing tricks on me.
That is correct. The trip was set up by myself so that I could photograph Dawes and Co. on Strone Uladale for my first book, Eyes to the Hills. The team Dawes brought with him was indeed Pritchard and Moon. Awesome. The year was 1990, I think. We were there for a week in September and they did the first ascent of Moskil Grooves.
In reply to GrahamD: The '9a' interview
http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=39...
As for the UKB vid - very good - thanks for posting.
http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=39...
As for the UKB vid - very good - thanks for posting.
In reply to MattDTC: Excellent that, thanks for sharing.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
A university friend of mine was on this trip with you - a chap named Andy I think. He wasn't a climber but I understand he kept the team entertained...
A university friend of mine was on this trip with you - a chap named Andy I think. He wasn't a climber but I understand he kept the team entertained...
In reply to JTM:
Unfortunately, it was something of an expensive fiasco as the weather was very bad much of the time - we had a huge storm, called 'Hurricane Gabrielle". The sun came out late one afternoon and I got a few pics of Ben Moon on Moss Kill Grooves, one of which I used, full page, in Eyes to the Hills. I also used one of the pics I took of Johnny and Ben in the boat hut below Strone Ulladale, where we had supper most nights, and sat out much of the storm. I took everything medium format on my Hasselblad, so unfortunately have no scans of any of these transparencies.
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth)
>
> Would you consider posting some of those photos, Gordon?
>
> Would you consider posting some of those photos, Gordon?
Unfortunately, it was something of an expensive fiasco as the weather was very bad much of the time - we had a huge storm, called 'Hurricane Gabrielle". The sun came out late one afternoon and I got a few pics of Ben Moon on Moss Kill Grooves, one of which I used, full page, in Eyes to the Hills. I also used one of the pics I took of Johnny and Ben in the boat hut below Strone Ulladale, where we had supper most nights, and sat out much of the storm. I took everything medium format on my Hasselblad, so unfortunately have no scans of any of these transparencies.
In reply to seankenny:
That's right, Andy Robson. Keen on photography. He did well, and was a good assistant.
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth)
>
> A university friend of mine was on this trip with you - a chap named Andy I think. He wasn't a climber but I understand he kept the team entertained...
>
> A university friend of mine was on this trip with you - a chap named Andy I think. He wasn't a climber but I understand he kept the team entertained...
That's right, Andy Robson. Keen on photography. He did well, and was a good assistant.
In reply to seankenny:
No, absolutely none. I have not seen him since I did Eyes to the Hills. I think the last time I saw him was at the book launch in 1991.
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth)
>
> Cool. Any idea what he's up to these days?
>
> Cool. Any idea what he's up to these days?
No, absolutely none. I have not seen him since I did Eyes to the Hills. I think the last time I saw him was at the book launch in 1991.
In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:
Thats an odd precedent, that a route gets regraded on the judgement of someone who hasn't yet completed the route ? surely it should be on the concensus of all the ascensionsts who did complete it ?
> As said Ondra thinks it is 9a so is one year before AD
Thats an odd precedent, that a route gets regraded on the judgement of someone who hasn't yet completed the route ? surely it should be on the concensus of all the ascensionsts who did complete it ?
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Does that mean the transparencies you have are unscannable?
> (In reply to jon)
> [...]
>
> I took everything medium format on my Hasselblad, so unfortunately have no scans of any of these transparencies.
> [...]
>
> I took everything medium format on my Hasselblad, so unfortunately have no scans of any of these transparencies.
Does that mean the transparencies you have are unscannable?
In reply to JTM:
No, just that I haven't got a medium format scanner. I don't have the publisher's original scans.
No, just that I haven't got a medium format scanner. I don't have the publisher's original scans.
In reply to GrahamD:
It's not just on Ondra's opinion, it's generally considered pretty top end for 8c+.
> (In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat)
>
> [...]
>
> Thats an odd precedent, that a route gets regraded on the judgement of someone who hasn't yet completed the route ? surely it should be on the concensus of all the ascensionsts who did complete it ?
>
> [...]
>
> Thats an odd precedent, that a route gets regraded on the judgement of someone who hasn't yet completed the route ? surely it should be on the concensus of all the ascensionsts who did complete it ?
It's not just on Ondra's opinion, it's generally considered pretty top end for 8c+.
In reply to GrahamD:
No one has more experience of the 9th grade that Ondra and is better able to pass judgement. The fact that he didnt do it in two visits speaks volumes.
> (In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat)
>
> [...]
>
> Thats an odd precedent, that a route gets regraded on the judgement of someone who hasn't yet completed the route ? surely it should be on the concensus of all the ascensionsts who did complete it ?
>
> [...]
>
> Thats an odd precedent, that a route gets regraded on the judgement of someone who hasn't yet completed the route ? surely it should be on the concensus of all the ascensionsts who did complete it ?
No one has more experience of the 9th grade that Ondra and is better able to pass judgement. The fact that he didnt do it in two visits speaks volumes.
In reply to steve taylor:
Cheers - I enjoyed doing it. Ben's candour made it a winner.
> (In reply to MattDTC)
>
> Thanks to Simon for doing and sharing this - good interview.
>
> Thanks to Simon for doing and sharing this - good interview.
Cheers - I enjoyed doing it. Ben's candour made it a winner.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
No, just that I haven't got a medium format scanner. I don't have the publisher's original scans.
Couldn't you photograph the transparencies?
No, just that I haven't got a medium format scanner. I don't have the publisher's original scans.
Couldn't you photograph the transparencies?
In reply to remus:
Top end for 8c+ isn't the same as 9a though. Just wondered, in an anoraky sort of way.
> It's not just on Ondra's opinion, it's generally considered pretty top end for 8c+.
Top end for 8c+ isn't the same as 9a though. Just wondered, in an anoraky sort of way.
In reply to shark:
It says the conditions were crap for a start. I've heard people proffer possible grades when they haven't completed a route but I've not seen it used as a justification for up (or down) grading before. Maybe it happens more often than I realise.
> The fact that he didnt do it in two visits speaks volumes.
It says the conditions were crap for a start. I've heard people proffer possible grades when they haven't completed a route but I've not seen it used as a justification for up (or down) grading before. Maybe it happens more often than I realise.
In reply to remus:
It's not just on Ondra's opinion, it's generally considered pretty top end for 8c+.
Didn't Steve McClure say that he thought it was 9a?
It's not just on Ondra's opinion, it's generally considered pretty top end for 8c+.
Didn't Steve McClure say that he thought it was 9a?
In reply to GrahamD:
The thing is... Ondra isn't an anorak. No climber who has ever lived has more experience of relevant grading. Ondra looking at a F9a is like me looking at a F7b. Doesn't matter whether you've done it or not. You've done so many at the grade, you just know.
Mick
P.S. Great interview, Simon!
> Just wondered, in an anoraky sort of way.
The thing is... Ondra isn't an anorak. No climber who has ever lived has more experience of relevant grading. Ondra looking at a F9a is like me looking at a F7b. Doesn't matter whether you've done it or not. You've done so many at the grade, you just know.
Mick
P.S. Great interview, Simon!
In reply to MattDTC: Would have been nice if Malc Smith had a bigger mention for Hubble.Malc was a strong strong youth.Also,Big Bang wasn't mentioned.Was that 9A?
The comments about having to film hard new ascents seemed over the top.
The comments about having to film hard new ascents seemed over the top.
In reply to MattDTC: Nice one for sharing, really interesting!
In reply to paul mitchell:
Malc and Neil were cited as pushing the limits. Big Bang was done 5 years after Hubble. No excuse for not filming first ascents or hard repeats these days when every phone has a camera.
Malc and Neil were cited as pushing the limits. Big Bang was done 5 years after Hubble. No excuse for not filming first ascents or hard repeats these days when every phone has a camera.
In reply to shark: I thought climbing was about climbing,not filming.
In reply to paul mitchell:
I don't want to rake over well covered ground at this time of night but can I refer you to this thread on the topic of proof:
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,21378.msg389147.html
I don't want to rake over well covered ground at this time of night but can I refer you to this thread on the topic of proof:
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,21378.msg389147.html
In reply to Mick Ward:
Seems a very odd precedent to me. Who do you decide who magically 'knows' the grade of a route if they haven't done the route or got on the route in decent conditions ?
> You've done so many at the grade, you just know.
Seems a very odd precedent to me. Who do you decide who magically 'knows' the grade of a route if they haven't done the route or got on the route in decent conditions ?
In reply to GrahamD: Well I think Ondra's opinion on the grade of Hubble is more valid than, for instance, yours.
In reply to shark:
>No excuse for not filming first ascents or hard repeats these days when every phone has a camera.
Depends why you're doing it, doesn't it? As Lydia Bradey so pointedly observed, I didn't do it for you, I did it for me.
jcm
>No excuse for not filming first ascents or hard repeats these days when every phone has a camera.
Depends why you're doing it, doesn't it? As Lydia Bradey so pointedly observed, I didn't do it for you, I did it for me.
jcm
In reply to John2:
In this case someone who has serially onsighted 8c+, flashed 9a and redpointed 9b+ and also world bouldering and lead champion
> (In reply to GrahamD) Well I think Ondra's opinion on the grade of Hubble is more valid than, for instance, yours.
In this case someone who has serially onsighted 8c+, flashed 9a and redpointed 9b+ and also world bouldering and lead champion
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Fine if you aren't seeking credit but don't get huffy if you are doubted over a significant first ascent or hard repeat that you've claimed.
> (In reply to shark)
>
> >No excuse for not filming first ascents or hard repeats these days when every phone has a camera.
>
> Depends why you're doing it, doesn't it? As Lydia Bradey so pointedly observed, I didn't do it for you, I did it for me.
>
> jcm
>
> >No excuse for not filming first ascents or hard repeats these days when every phone has a camera.
>
> Depends why you're doing it, doesn't it? As Lydia Bradey so pointedly observed, I didn't do it for you, I did it for me.
>
> jcm
Fine if you aren't seeking credit but don't get huffy if you are doubted over a significant first ascent or hard repeat that you've claimed.
In reply to shark:
That was her reply - "I didn't do it for you, I did it for me". On the subject of whether she had indeed been the first woman to reach the summit of Everest without oxygen, I believe. As far as I know this was the only reply she ever made to those who doubted her solo ascent, which was later vindicated by other witnesses. A rather pleasing story, I always think.
jcm
That was her reply - "I didn't do it for you, I did it for me". On the subject of whether she had indeed been the first woman to reach the summit of Everest without oxygen, I believe. As far as I know this was the only reply she ever made to those who doubted her solo ascent, which was later vindicated by other witnesses. A rather pleasing story, I always think.
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
It was the same sort of thing that Rich Simpson said and the sentiment doesn't strike a chord with me anymore.
It was the same sort of thing that Rich Simpson said and the sentiment doesn't strike a chord with me anymore.
In reply to shark:
True, but then LB was telling the truth. Still, that does rather beg the question, I agree.
What would Gaskins say?! In fact, what did he say?
jcm
True, but then LB was telling the truth. Still, that does rather beg the question, I agree.
What would Gaskins say?! In fact, what did he say?
jcm
1
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Liars and the genuine will trot out that they climb for themselves.
As there is next to no hardship with modern technology to provide decent proof - why not?.
Even in regulated sports cheats abound. It happens. If you claim a cutting edge ascent or repeat then if asked to provide some footage don't get shirty. Guidebook writers jobs are hard enough without dealing with sulky prima donnas who "climb for themselves"
Liars and the genuine will trot out that they climb for themselves.
As there is next to no hardship with modern technology to provide decent proof - why not?.
Even in regulated sports cheats abound. It happens. If you claim a cutting edge ascent or repeat then if asked to provide some footage don't get shirty. Guidebook writers jobs are hard enough without dealing with sulky prima donnas who "climb for themselves"
In reply to shark:
Well, as you say, a well-worn debate. Not everyone likes the pressure of cameras.
There's also the point that (a) as we speak LB is climbing Everest again 25 years on, according to her blog, and (b) according to legend she was once and perhaps remains the holder of the world's-highest-shag-without-the-use-of-aeroplanes record. When RS demonstrates that sort of wide-ranging and long-lived commitment to the game, perhaps we can talk.
jcm
Well, as you say, a well-worn debate. Not everyone likes the pressure of cameras.
There's also the point that (a) as we speak LB is climbing Everest again 25 years on, according to her blog, and (b) according to legend she was once and perhaps remains the holder of the world's-highest-shag-without-the-use-of-aeroplanes record. When RS demonstrates that sort of wide-ranging and long-lived commitment to the game, perhaps we can talk.
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Joint record holder surely?
> (In reply to shark)
and (b) according to legend she was once and perhaps remains the holder of the world's-highest-shag-without-the-use-of-aeroplanes record. >
> jcm
> jcm
Joint record holder surely?
In reply to Castor:
She sounds like the type to have gone on top.
You do make a fair point, though. The exact rules on this record need better definition. I don't think history records the name of the co-record holder, although assuming this record was set on Everest presumably it was one out of Rob Hall, Gary Ball, Bill Atkinson or a bunch of now-dead Czechs, and I'm guessing not Rob Hall.
jcm
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
> [...]
> and (b) according to legend she was once and perhaps remains the holder of the world's-highest-shag-without-the-use-of-aeroplanes record.
> [...]
>
> Joint record holder surely?
> [...]
> and (b) according to legend she was once and perhaps remains the holder of the world's-highest-shag-without-the-use-of-aeroplanes record.
> [...]
>
> Joint record holder surely?
She sounds like the type to have gone on top.
You do make a fair point, though. The exact rules on this record need better definition. I don't think history records the name of the co-record holder, although assuming this record was set on Everest presumably it was one out of Rob Hall, Gary Ball, Bill Atkinson or a bunch of now-dead Czechs, and I'm guessing not Rob Hall.
jcm
In reply to GrahamD:
It's one I'll live with. I've already given my reason; no point in restating it.
After more than 20 years, Ben Moon finally knows not only that he climbed F9a but he was the first person in the world to break that magic barrier.
Feel free to disagree.
Mick
> Seems a very odd precedent to me.
It's one I'll live with. I've already given my reason; no point in restating it.
After more than 20 years, Ben Moon finally knows not only that he climbed F9a but he was the first person in the world to break that magic barrier.
Feel free to disagree.
Mick
In reply to John2:
Well of course it is, but then I'm not proffering a grade for it either. This isn't really questioning whether Hubble is 9a or not - its really questioning the validity of changing a grade based on the opinion of a non ascensionist. Is this normal ?
> (In reply to GrahamD) Well I think Ondra's opinion on the grade of Hubble is more valid than, for instance, yours.
Well of course it is, but then I'm not proffering a grade for it either. This isn't really questioning whether Hubble is 9a or not - its really questioning the validity of changing a grade based on the opinion of a non ascensionist. Is this normal ?
In reply to peteharrison06:
Yes, you're right - and from speaking to people who knew her BITD it's perfectly obvious she was motivated by a desire for public acclaim as well, like most of us. It's not that she was a saint, just that she provided a particularly pithily expressed and apposite quote (even though it wasn't entirely literally true).
jcm
Yes, you're right - and from speaking to people who knew her BITD it's perfectly obvious she was motivated by a desire for public acclaim as well, like most of us. It's not that she was a saint, just that she provided a particularly pithily expressed and apposite quote (even though it wasn't entirely literally true).
jcm
In reply to MattDTC: Changing the subject slightly it might for all the anti benefit scroungers of which this site has a few to recall that Moon and most climbers of his era took the "Thatcher Climbing Grant' aka the dole to climb full time!
In reply to peteharrison06:
Eh?? What a bizarre thing to say. You don't think Johnny made a contribution to British climbing?
jcm
Eh?? What a bizarre thing to say. You don't think Johnny made a contribution to British climbing?
jcm
In reply to GrahamD:
It might be, I think I've read Ben Moon saying that a climber can go on a route and get a feel for the moves even if they don't manage to complete it, to get a feel for a grade. It seems pretty logical to me that somebody who has climbed lots of 9a climbs can judge whether something is around 9a, even if they don't quite complete it.
At the end of the day, it's just an opinion on the grade of an established climb, it's a pointer as it were. I can't see it being changed unless somebody who's climbed it after many other 9a's decides to re-grade it.
> (In reply to John2)
>
> [...]
>
> Well of course it is, but then I'm not proffering a grade for it either. This isn't really questioning whether Hubble is 9a or not - its really questioning the validity of changing a grade based on the opinion of a non ascensionist. Is this normal ?
>
> [...]
>
> Well of course it is, but then I'm not proffering a grade for it either. This isn't really questioning whether Hubble is 9a or not - its really questioning the validity of changing a grade based on the opinion of a non ascensionist. Is this normal ?
It might be, I think I've read Ben Moon saying that a climber can go on a route and get a feel for the moves even if they don't manage to complete it, to get a feel for a grade. It seems pretty logical to me that somebody who has climbed lots of 9a climbs can judge whether something is around 9a, even if they don't quite complete it.
At the end of the day, it's just an opinion on the grade of an established climb, it's a pointer as it were. I can't see it being changed unless somebody who's climbed it after many other 9a's decides to re-grade it.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
I think he means because Dawes came from a wealthy background
> (In reply to peteharrison06)
>
> Eh?? What a bizarre thing to say. You don't think Johnny made a contribution to British climbing?
>
> jcm
>
> Eh?? What a bizarre thing to say. You don't think Johnny made a contribution to British climbing?
>
> jcm
I think he means because Dawes came from a wealthy background
In reply to TobyA:
You can't blame Simon Lee for being rude I think, after he quite ethically removed the chock stone from Right Eliminate climbed by Joe Brown, and came in for a load if stick on here for it.
It turns out Joe Brown didn't use a chock stone on the 1st ascent, and that a stone was added later.
Jim Perrin wrote into Climb Magazine with a picture of Joe Brown on the 1st ascent which showed no chock stone was used, and commented on Joe Brown wondering why nobody had thought to simply ask him, instead of speculating on here.
As far as I gather, the relevant area meeting decided to put a chock stone back in the route again, but in truth it probably shouldn't be there.
> (In reply to MattDTC) Credit should be given to UKB for doing the interview even if they're rude about UKC all the time.
You can't blame Simon Lee for being rude I think, after he quite ethically removed the chock stone from Right Eliminate climbed by Joe Brown, and came in for a load if stick on here for it.
It turns out Joe Brown didn't use a chock stone on the 1st ascent, and that a stone was added later.
Jim Perrin wrote into Climb Magazine with a picture of Joe Brown on the 1st ascent which showed no chock stone was used, and commented on Joe Brown wondering why nobody had thought to simply ask him, instead of speculating on here.
As far as I gather, the relevant area meeting decided to put a chock stone back in the route again, but in truth it probably shouldn't be there.
In reply to peteharrison06:
Oh, yeah, fair enough. I think the story was that the money ran out at some point, although I forget when.
jcm
Oh, yeah, fair enough. I think the story was that the money ran out at some point, although I forget when.
jcm
In reply to Timmd:
< Bit of a thread digression, but... >
Indeed he did get a load of stick - tons and tons of people criticising him, some being pretty bloody nasty. He'd been incredibly open about things, before and after he removed the chockstone. And, as it happened, it should never have been there.
As I recall, nobody apologised publicly. It was my first insight into this place at its worst.
Mick
< Bit of a thread digression, but... >
> You can't blame Simon... after he quite ethically removed the chock stone from Right Eliminate... and came in for a load if stick on here for it.
Indeed he did get a load of stick - tons and tons of people criticising him, some being pretty bloody nasty. He'd been incredibly open about things, before and after he removed the chockstone. And, as it happened, it should never have been there.
As I recall, nobody apologised publicly. It was my first insight into this place at its worst.
Mick
In reply to Mick Ward: link to read the abuse?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Didn't his father lose a lot of money as a Lloyd's name in the late 80s or early 90s?
In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:
Better not. Old history. This place can go a long way from its best (e.g. the Barry Brewster thread) to its worst - the witch-hunts which sporadically erupt. I couldn't believe the vitriol which Simon received; a weaker person would have buckled under it. Years later, I got a couple of (much lesser) attacks. They take it out of you. They took it out of me.
It's to Simon's credit that he never got embittered and, back on thread, that he's produced such a good interview. Although I knew Jerry back in the day, I never really knew Ben Moon. He comes across as a very well-balanced, mature guy. Hubble as the first F9a in the world - something to cherish always.
Mick
Better not. Old history. This place can go a long way from its best (e.g. the Barry Brewster thread) to its worst - the witch-hunts which sporadically erupt. I couldn't believe the vitriol which Simon received; a weaker person would have buckled under it. Years later, I got a couple of (much lesser) attacks. They take it out of you. They took it out of me.
It's to Simon's credit that he never got embittered and, back on thread, that he's produced such a good interview. Although I knew Jerry back in the day, I never really knew Ben Moon. He comes across as a very well-balanced, mature guy. Hubble as the first F9a in the world - something to cherish always.
Mick
In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:
Not hard with a search. I must say I don't remember it as abuse, by any means. Some spirited disagreement, certainly.
I don't think I ever knew that JP had produced a first ascent picture of RE. Is that really true? Amazing the R&I were documenting their first ascents as early as 1951.
jcm
Not hard with a search. I must say I don't remember it as abuse, by any means. Some spirited disagreement, certainly.
I don't think I ever knew that JP had produced a first ascent picture of RE. Is that really true? Amazing the R&I were documenting their first ascents as early as 1951.
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: I don't know if Jim Perrin took the picture, but it was included in the letter he wrote to Climb magazine, it was in the 1st or 2nd issue I think.
In reply to Timmd:
Jim would have been about five at the time!
There was a letter and a photo in (the last issue of?) On The Edge. As Chris Craggs pointed out at the time, the way the rope was running in and out of the crack, there seemed to be several (three?) chockstones.
A Fissure Brown indeed!
Mick
> I don't know if Jim Perrin took the picture...
Jim would have been about five at the time!
> but it was included in the letter he wrote to Climb magazine, it was in the 1st or 2nd issue I think.
There was a letter and a photo in (the last issue of?) On The Edge. As Chris Craggs pointed out at the time, the way the rope was running in and out of the crack, there seemed to be several (three?) chockstones.
A Fissure Brown indeed!
Mick
In reply to Mick Ward: If anybody knows, Joe Brown (via Jim Perrin's letter) does.
In reply to Mick Ward:
The threads in question:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=98319
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=99149
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=99148
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=106117
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=102255&v=1#x1398044
These things can go on and on like for instance the Trapeze direct chock that goes in and out (I know who takes it out but not who puts it back in again).
The threads in question:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=98319
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=99149
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=99148
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=106117
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=102255&v=1#x1398044
These things can go on and on like for instance the Trapeze direct chock that goes in and out (I know who takes it out but not who puts it back in again).
In reply to Mick Ward: Those threads seem polite and good natured. I can't imagine Simon's feelings were particularly hurt by that! UKB and UKC do a similar thing in a, relatively speaking, a small market place - so competition will result.
But I believe the stereotypes held amongst the denizens of the respective forums (i.e. not the businesses, but the 'communities') are meant to be that "they" think "we" are all fat punters who only climb three times a year and that will be on a polished severe at the popular end of Stanage, but nevertheless need expedition tents, crampons and 500 quid shell jacket to do so. While "we" think "they" are all miserable Sheffield cellar-dwellars who look down on anyone who can't climb E5, Fb7A or is female.
But I believe the stereotypes held amongst the denizens of the respective forums (i.e. not the businesses, but the 'communities') are meant to be that "they" think "we" are all fat punters who only climb three times a year and that will be on a polished severe at the popular end of Stanage, but nevertheless need expedition tents, crampons and 500 quid shell jacket to do so. While "we" think "they" are all miserable Sheffield cellar-dwellars who look down on anyone who can't climb E5, Fb7A or is female.
In reply to Mick Ward:
I'd rather not open up old wounds but thanks for your words and also offline advice at the time. It was a witch hunt and a couple of the most abusive posts(from a user "bombthefascists" or something similar) where removed at my request. I was a parvenu to forums at the time so I did feel under a huge amount of pressure and it was an all consuming thing for me at the time defending what I'd done on the forums and also at the BMC area meet. I should have just taken the thing out and said nothing.
No I didn't receive an apology publicly or otherwise from Jon Cox or his gang when it was unearthed that the chockstone was placed later vindicating my instinct that it shouldn't have been there. Righteously he put another back in even though I took the "original" out on a trial basis and that stone is still there - further back so it doesn't obstruct the climbing I presume. He should have removed it once the historical record had been set straight.
After the chockstone controversy I was then a regular user of UKC including setting up Fit Club and writing some articles and being a crag moderator until I acquired UKB with Tobyfk another UKC user in 2010. We have tried to smooth over the waters of the historic antagonisms sometimes in the face of provocation most notably from Mick Ryan and Chris Craggs.
TobyA. Maybe my feelings weren't hurt but I was angry at the mob mentality. Re UKB you might be surprised at the diversity of users in terms of interests, age and abilities. I like to think of UKB as somewhere that those who are passionate about climbing in whatever form will feel at home. I'm sorry that you feel intimidated but I think that is more down to misconceptions on your part.
I'd rather not open up old wounds but thanks for your words and also offline advice at the time. It was a witch hunt and a couple of the most abusive posts(from a user "bombthefascists" or something similar) where removed at my request. I was a parvenu to forums at the time so I did feel under a huge amount of pressure and it was an all consuming thing for me at the time defending what I'd done on the forums and also at the BMC area meet. I should have just taken the thing out and said nothing.
No I didn't receive an apology publicly or otherwise from Jon Cox or his gang when it was unearthed that the chockstone was placed later vindicating my instinct that it shouldn't have been there. Righteously he put another back in even though I took the "original" out on a trial basis and that stone is still there - further back so it doesn't obstruct the climbing I presume. He should have removed it once the historical record had been set straight.
After the chockstone controversy I was then a regular user of UKC including setting up Fit Club and writing some articles and being a crag moderator until I acquired UKB with Tobyfk another UKC user in 2010. We have tried to smooth over the waters of the historic antagonisms sometimes in the face of provocation most notably from Mick Ryan and Chris Craggs.
TobyA. Maybe my feelings weren't hurt but I was angry at the mob mentality. Re UKB you might be surprised at the diversity of users in terms of interests, age and abilities. I like to think of UKB as somewhere that those who are passionate about climbing in whatever form will feel at home. I'm sorry that you feel intimidated but I think that is more down to misconceptions on your part.
In reply to Timmd:
If I remember correctly (always a moot point, as I near dribbling senility) Brown did his Peak template for the Fissure Brown with 'just hands and feet and heart' (probably a misquote; in vino non veritas).
Mick
> If anybody knows, Joe Brown (via Jim Perrin's letter) does.
If I remember correctly (always a moot point, as I near dribbling senility) Brown did his Peak template for the Fissure Brown with 'just hands and feet and heart' (probably a misquote; in vino non veritas).
Mick
In reply to Offwidth:
I thought you were joking, but it seems not. I mean... it's pretty much a descent route, isn't it?
Mick
> ...the Trapeze direct chock that goes in and out (I know who takes it out but not who puts it back in again).
I thought you were joking, but it seems not. I mean... it's pretty much a descent route, isn't it?
Mick
In reply to Mick Ward: "'just hands and feet and heart' "isn't that from Ed Drummond ? (or am I also approaching senility)
In reply to TobyA:
Well, you've heard Simon's view. As I remember, it was nasty. And I've had nasty from on here. So let's not sweep it under the carpet. It happens.
As Simon said, 'I should have just taken the thing out and said nothing.' Pragmatically yes. But the difference is honour. If you have any honour at all, you're open and honest about what you do - right or wrong. You live with the consequences. And, if you've done anything in climbing, chances are you've opened yourself to possible attack - from some pillock or other - for the rest of your life.
In Simon's case, he was right. Let's leave it there.
Mick
Well, you've heard Simon's view. As I remember, it was nasty. And I've had nasty from on here. So let's not sweep it under the carpet. It happens.
As Simon said, 'I should have just taken the thing out and said nothing.' Pragmatically yes. But the difference is honour. If you have any honour at all, you're open and honest about what you do - right or wrong. You live with the consequences. And, if you've done anything in climbing, chances are you've opened yourself to possible attack - from some pillock or other - for the rest of your life.
In Simon's case, he was right. Let's leave it there.
Mick
In reply to Doug:
May just have been...
'In this great future
we can forget the past' (Bob Marley)
Mick
May just have been...
'In this great future
we can forget the past' (Bob Marley)
Mick
In reply to shark:
Fair enough, abusive posts - particularly the ones that suggest a fight and all that stupidity are always out of order. I know that being attacked online by anonymous people can be very disconcerting, although my experiences of this have had nothing to do with climbing (indeed the climbing community has always seemed safe and homely, even if argumentative at times, in comparison to some 'internet communities of interest' my work used to take me to).
It was meant purely as a joke Simon; as I said - those are the stereotypes we are meant to hold about each other and I know lots of people use both UKC and UKB, so there isn't really an 'each other'. I actually quite often read threads on UKB and have even posted a few times, but mainly I know that I spend too much time discussing climbing online already, so try to limit getting stuck into threads elsewhere.
And again, thanks for doing the interview, it was really interesting. Glad you asked about the hair, even if it was off camera. I used to have hair long enough for a pony-tail, but when Ben lost his dreads in the mid-90s it gave me the inspiration to shave my head; a rather utilitarian hair style (that I like for that reason) that I've stuck with since
> It was a witch hunt and a couple of the most abusive posts(from a user "bombthefascists" or something similar) where removed at my request.
Fair enough, abusive posts - particularly the ones that suggest a fight and all that stupidity are always out of order. I know that being attacked online by anonymous people can be very disconcerting, although my experiences of this have had nothing to do with climbing (indeed the climbing community has always seemed safe and homely, even if argumentative at times, in comparison to some 'internet communities of interest' my work used to take me to).
> I like to think of UKB as somewhere that those who are passionate about climbing in whatever form will feel at home. I'm sorry that you feel intimidated but I think that is more down to misconceptions on your part.
It was meant purely as a joke Simon; as I said - those are the stereotypes we are meant to hold about each other and I know lots of people use both UKC and UKB, so there isn't really an 'each other'. I actually quite often read threads on UKB and have even posted a few times, but mainly I know that I spend too much time discussing climbing online already, so try to limit getting stuck into threads elsewhere.
And again, thanks for doing the interview, it was really interesting. Glad you asked about the hair, even if it was off camera. I used to have hair long enough for a pony-tail, but when Ben lost his dreads in the mid-90s it gave me the inspiration to shave my head; a rather utilitarian hair style (that I like for that reason) that I've stuck with since
In reply to Mick Ward:
It is sort of a regular 'descent route' when the chockstone is missing as it goes from a friendly HS to a rather brutal cruxy VS with a nasty 5a move that sees a lot of lead falls. It's unlike you to be so elitist.
In reply to Shark
Well said. People forget that moderation makes these threads so much more cuddly than they are at the time. I was one of those who said you shouldn't have done it without more consultation (but thought the route was likely better without it); once out, I certainly didnt want it put straight back in again and in my view those reponsible were certainly guilty of misinterpreting the BMC vote (which was was swung by those like me concerned more about consulting on such issues rather than rabidly wanting the chockstone to stay).
It is sort of a regular 'descent route' when the chockstone is missing as it goes from a friendly HS to a rather brutal cruxy VS with a nasty 5a move that sees a lot of lead falls. It's unlike you to be so elitist.
In reply to Shark
Well said. People forget that moderation makes these threads so much more cuddly than they are at the time. I was one of those who said you shouldn't have done it without more consultation (but thought the route was likely better without it); once out, I certainly didnt want it put straight back in again and in my view those reponsible were certainly guilty of misinterpreting the BMC vote (which was was swung by those like me concerned more about consulting on such issues rather than rabidly wanting the chockstone to stay).
In reply to Offwidth:
You're quite right - I apologise. Any kind of elitism sucks. It just seemed we'd come an awfully long way from Hubble, via Right Eliminate. But the principles are the same.
For what it's worth, I remember Trapeze Direct with pretty bomber holds all the way up and back down again. Presumably the chockstone was in!
Mick
> It's unlike you to be so elitist.
You're quite right - I apologise. Any kind of elitism sucks. It just seemed we'd come an awfully long way from Hubble, via Right Eliminate. But the principles are the same.
For what it's worth, I remember Trapeze Direct with pretty bomber holds all the way up and back down again. Presumably the chockstone was in!
Mick
In reply to MattDTC: As Joe did Right Eliminate without the chock,it could well be argued that it should have no chock now.
Point is,Simon offered to lend people a large cam to safeguard a lead,but as I said then,it is a bit impractical getting the cam to aspirant leaders.If the chock was removed,then poorer climbers would need to use large hexes.Hmmm...there's an idea.The chock was in in the mid 70's,and I got a hex 11 in higher up.Later soloed it.
If it is wrong to retrofit stone chocks,then I presume it is also wrong to retrobolt routes done without bolts?
Chocks can usually be found naturally,near the route.Bolts have to be imported and holds drilled.
Point is,Simon offered to lend people a large cam to safeguard a lead,but as I said then,it is a bit impractical getting the cam to aspirant leaders.If the chock was removed,then poorer climbers would need to use large hexes.Hmmm...there's an idea.The chock was in in the mid 70's,and I got a hex 11 in higher up.Later soloed it.
If it is wrong to retrofit stone chocks,then I presume it is also wrong to retrobolt routes done without bolts?
Chocks can usually be found naturally,near the route.Bolts have to be imported and holds drilled.
In reply to MattDTC: Holes drilled,not holds...
In reply to shark, Mick, Offwidth et al:
Blimey, I thought we'd buried this particular hatchet.
I've always enjoyed the bit in one of the Bond books where JB is captured by the baddie (Colonel Sun, I fancy) and starts blustering about how he's been tortured and he's going to tell the authorities once he gets out. "If you think you were tortured, Commander Bond", replies the baddie, "I congratulate you on your ignorance".
Incidentally, am I the only one who feels they've stepped into a parallel universe with the revelation that Simon called teacher on here to complain at horrid posts about him, bearing in mind the whole UKB/Mick Ryan spat a year or two ago?!
Anyhoo, whatever was said about SL at the time, I'm pretty sure we still spelled his f*****g name correctly. And while I don't speak for Jon (sic) Cox's "gang" (good grief, I have a gang?), the reason I didn't apologise was that I didn't think Simon should have messed about with the route, and I still don't. Nor, contrary to Offwidth, were we "unduly", or at all AFAIK, influenced by the BMC vote, whatever that was, in fact I don't think I knew such a thing existed until this moment, though I may have done. We just thought we'd all be a lot better off if people didn't play God and alter routes to suit their own notions, and that if they did the changes should be restored, and I still think we were right.
jcm
Blimey, I thought we'd buried this particular hatchet.
I've always enjoyed the bit in one of the Bond books where JB is captured by the baddie (Colonel Sun, I fancy) and starts blustering about how he's been tortured and he's going to tell the authorities once he gets out. "If you think you were tortured, Commander Bond", replies the baddie, "I congratulate you on your ignorance".
Incidentally, am I the only one who feels they've stepped into a parallel universe with the revelation that Simon called teacher on here to complain at horrid posts about him, bearing in mind the whole UKB/Mick Ryan spat a year or two ago?!
Anyhoo, whatever was said about SL at the time, I'm pretty sure we still spelled his f*****g name correctly. And while I don't speak for Jon (sic) Cox's "gang" (good grief, I have a gang?), the reason I didn't apologise was that I didn't think Simon should have messed about with the route, and I still don't. Nor, contrary to Offwidth, were we "unduly", or at all AFAIK, influenced by the BMC vote, whatever that was, in fact I don't think I knew such a thing existed until this moment, though I may have done. We just thought we'd all be a lot better off if people didn't play God and alter routes to suit their own notions, and that if they did the changes should be restored, and I still think we were right.
jcm
I'm going to lock this thread to avoid it running out of hand.
Alan
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