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Arrived this morning, the postman looked relieved as he took this substantial volume from his bag and pushed it through my letterbox. Cracking book with inspirational images, well done to the SMC team and Don Sargeant for reminding us (if we needed reminding) that Scotland is a magnificent place to climb.

In reply to Trevor Langhorne:

Spent half the morning leafing through my copy. Looks magnificent. So is Sumo (E3) the best route in Scotland (and therefore the UK)? And I assume Sarclet Pimpernel missing its third and fourth stars is a typo!

1
 Steve Crowe Global Crag Moderator 23 Aug 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

I agree, I think omitting the adjacent awesome

The Orchid Hunter (E3 5c)

was also probably a typo. 
 

PS. They included 1760 routes, what’s one more?

Post edited at 16:14
1
 Mike-W-99 23 Aug 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

I climbed Sarclet Pimpernel on Sunday and was just as surprised as you were when I flicked through the book. What a marvellous pair of routes to abseil into.

 Andy Moles 23 Aug 2022
In reply to Trevor Langhorne:

By and large it's the lavish all-dancing compilation of the very best things that I hoped for, a real step up from previous Scottish select guides.

Though on first pass I have picked up a surprising number of oddities and mistakes. I might write a full review, but for a couple of teasers: whoever wrote the geology section thinks that the rock on Lewis is granite, and check out the topo location of Scimitar Upper Buttress in Glen Nevis.

 mike barnard 23 Aug 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> So is Sumo (E3) the best route in Scotland?

Why, does it say that?

"And I assume Sarclet Pimpernel missing its third and fourth stars is a typo!"

Hopefully! It's certainly pretty hard to beat.

Post edited at 18:55
 Mike-W-99 23 Aug 2022
In reply to Andy Moles:

Found a few mistakes too. Will let Rob know.

In reply to mike barnard:

> Why, does it say that?

It says "Possibly the best route in Scotland?"

Well, it's probably as good as any others I've done anyway.

In reply to Andy Moles:

> Though on first pass I have picked up a surprising number of oddities....

Garheugh anyone?!

Given some of the omissions!

 Andy Moles 23 Aug 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

I haven't been to Garheugh so can't comment on quality, but it's bizarre that that and a few Varian desperates at Reiff are the only boulder problems (that I spotted) in the entire book.

 mike barnard 23 Aug 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> It says "Possibly the best route in Scotland?">

Very generous, but pity it didn't mimic Gary's 'one of the best on the planet' comment

 alan moore 23 Aug 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Garheugh anyone?!

Possibly the best bouldering in Luce Bay!

 DaveHK 23 Aug 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Garheugh anyone?!

> Given some of the omissions!

There are always going to be questions asked about inclusions and omissions in a select guide but that does seem odd given all the other good trad down that way.

In reply to alan moore:

> Possibly the best bouldering in Luce Bay!

Psyched for it now🤣

 robertmichaellovell Global Crag Moderator 24 Aug 2022

I’m pleased that reception is positive. Thanks for kicking off the thread Trevor.

We’ve got a page where you can let us know about any mistakes you’ve spotted, and about potential corrections for next time. Your feedback is very much appreciated.

https://www.smc.org.uk/publications/corrections

As for what ends up in the book (and to a lesser extent opinions of quality for routes) that is of course down to the authors and their contributors… but you are welcome to make suggestions 🙂

 Andy Moles 24 Aug 2022
In reply to robertmichaellovell:

That's a great feedback tool.

 Andy Moles 24 Aug 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

In defence of Garheugh, I'd bet it gets more visitors because of inclusion in this book than Cuithe Mheadhonach and Rubha Carrach put together.

In reply to Andy Moles:

> In defence of Garheugh, I'd bet it gets more visitors because of inclusion in this book than Cuithe Mheadhonach and Rubha Carrach put together.

Undoubtedly. No contest between friendly bouldering and esoteric E5's....

It just seems odd to include a single token bouldering venue.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I would take the fourth star from Angel Face and give it to Sumo. That middle pitch is the stuff of dreams, especially in the warm evening light with the whole wall glowing! 

 mike barnard 24 Aug 2022
In reply to Nathan Adam:

Both routes to be fair are mainly about the second pitch (so really, should either be ****?). I prefer big questing pitches like AF to standard (albeit great) crack climbing like Sumo, but it's probably horses for courses. I've still got to go back for Pale Diedre to complete the trio of knockout E2s!

1
In reply to mike barnard:

Aye that’s true, but thought the rock quality on P2 of Sumo better and more of a line than the wandering of AF. Both superb all the same and P2 of Angel Face an amazing intricate quest across the wall.

Pale Deidre was great but overshadowed by the day before when we did Shoot The Breeze and Sumo. STB probably the most memorable of them all, for lots of reasons! 

 mike barnard 24 Aug 2022
In reply to Nathan Adam:

Ah yes, forgot about Shoot the Breeze. Another one for the list...

1
In reply to mike barnard:

> Both routes to be fair are mainly about the second pitch (so really, should either be ****?). I prefer big questing pitches like AF to standard (albeit great) crack climbing like Sumo.

I did Angel Face and Pale Diedre the same day and then Sumo and Groovin' High the same day. Definitely candidates there for the best E1, E2 and E3 in the country. Sounds like I need to go back for Shoot The Breeze (I went to the foot of it once but the threat of a thunderstorm scared us away!)

Although easier than the second pitch, I thought the top pitch of Sumo was utterly brilliant in its own way, contrasting in style, big, quite bold and "questing" if you like. So, I would give Sumo the edge over Angel Face. 

Having said that I'm not even convinced Sumo is the best mountain E3 in the country; I think Temple of Doom (E3 6a) and Enigma (https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/sron_na_ciche-780/enigma-7728) both give it a very good run for its money. How Enigma still languishes on only 2 stars is beyond me!

Edit: And while on the subject of understarred mountain E3's, it is a shame that The Harp (E3 5c) has been omitted; it's brilliant.

Post edited at 22:19
 mike barnard 25 Aug 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Having said that I'm not even convinced Sumo is the best mountain E3 in the country; I think Temple of Doom (E3 6a) and Enigma (https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/sron_na_ciche-780/enigma-7728) both give it a very good run for its money. How Enigma still languishes on only 2 stars is beyond me!

Sumo is a great route but I'm sure there must be better contenders. It would also need to actually be E3   Not done many but my pick so far is probably Uhuru (E3 6a) - just class from bottom to top. Still need to try either of the above.

> Edit: And while on the subject of understarred mountain E3's, it is a shame that The Harp (E3 5c) has been omitted; it's brilliant.

Just a pity about that truly dreadful first pitch! Wet the first time, rained off the second, not sure how much psyche I've got for a round three...

 IceBun 25 Aug 2022
In reply to robertmichaellovell:Thanks Rob, I’ll get on it, and this will be a bit of an aide memoire to me. Hardly big stuff but despite numerous attempts to change it over the years, my ascent of Black September in Glen Lednock is given as being in May when it was definitely September. A dark and brooding month from memory and hard to get a day for the ascent. My wee brother belayed - only his second time - and he wasn’t a climber.

And, at Sealsong area, Reiff, none of the routes Brian and I did were with Kevin Murphy. It was Martin Forsyth who lacerated his finger on The Executioner and, as a result, he wasn’t on the FA of Sealsong. There was a lot of blood!!

More crucially, at Meackie Point, a large flake/block has detached from Impending Doom and it is unclimbed in its current state. It looks very serious with no gear above the ramp of Scurry and, in many ways, the line is redundant. Better to use the direct start in NEO. In fact line 4 in the diagram, Fast Reactor, is slightly wrong and shows it finishing up Impending Doom when it moves into Flurry lower down. What is shown is a hybrid of Fast Reactor and ID direct.

Post edited at 09:18
 IceBun 25 Aug 2022
In reply to mike barnard: Agree with Rob that The Harp would have been good to include. Nothing dreadful about the first pitch, just a matter of getting it dry. 

 

In reply to IceBun:

> Agree with Rob that The Harp would have been good to include. Nothing dreadful about the first pitch, just a matter of getting it dry. 

When we did it, it was a bit wet and slimy but not too bad (though my tolerance of that sort of thing might be lower these days!) and easily worth it for the inmaculate pitches above.

I see you have tried Enigma but found it wet. I think it usually is (It took me several visits to find it dry but was all the more satisfying for that). When I eventually did it, we gained the headwall crack direct without the diversion to the Strappado belay - an absolutely fabulous pitch in a superb position. I assume it being slow to dry along with the meagre 2 stars when there are so many E3's with 3 stars nearby account for its neglect.

Post edited at 10:24
In reply to mike barnard:

> Sumo is a great route but I'm sure there must be better contenders. It would also need to actually be E3  

So you think Sumo is E2 or E4?!

> Not done many but my pick so far is probably Uhuru (E3 6a) - just class from bottom to top. Still need to try either of the above.

Yes, I thought the best of the East Buttress E3's along with Enigma, though they are all brilliant (not yet done Dilemma though). Arguably worth E4?

Post edited at 10:29
 IceBun 25 Aug 2022
In reply to Robert Durran: Yeah, we had Harp pretty dry. I thought that pitch was quite hard. We botched up with Enigma on that trip as a couple of days waiting might have dried it. Amazing setting but wringing for us. Sadly, never been back.

 Dangerous Dave 25 Aug 2022
In reply to mike barnard:

> Sumo is a great route but I'm sure there must be better contenders. It would also need to actually be E3  

I am guessing you think it is E2????? 

I thought it bench mark E3 and was going quite well when I did it. Either way it was superb.

 mike barnard 25 Aug 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> So you think Sumo is E2 or E4?!

Standard E2 - thought it felt similar to Angel Face and Tainted Galahad.

> Yes, I thought the best of the East Buttress E3's along with Enigma, though they are all brilliant (not yet done Dilemma though). Arguably worth E4?

Consensus seems to be that it's borderline (Uhuru), but I've very little experience at E4 so can't say really. 

4
 mike barnard 25 Aug 2022
In reply to Dangerous Dave:

> Either way it was superb.

Definitely! Not knocking it, just thought 'best in the country' a bit on the generous side.

1
 Andy Moles 25 Aug 2022
In reply to mike barnard:

Best in the country is a bit much for any route to live up to (especially when as shown here not everyone thinks it's even the best route at the crag). I'm not a fan of such hype, four stars speaks for itself!

 henwardian 25 Aug 2022
 Mike-W-99 25 Aug 2022
In reply to henwardian:

That’s the one, all 1100g of it. Like Trevor our postie looked glad to be shot of it

In reply to mike barnard:

> Standard E2

It felt so standard E3 to me that I really didn't know which way you were going to go!

In reply to Andy Moles:

> Best in the country is a bit much for any route to live up to (especially when as shown here not everyone thinks it's even the best route at the crag). I'm not a fan of such hype, four stars speaks for itself!

To be fair the guide doesn't claim it is the best route in the country; it just asks the question to provoke discussion. Obviously there is no definitive answer but the discussion can be fun. Likewise which routes should get the four stars!

 IceBun 25 Aug 2022
In reply to Dangerous Dave: and the consensus of voters would be with you plus me🤣

 Andy Moles 26 Aug 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Obviously there is no definitive answer but the discussion can be fun. Likewise which routes should get the four stars!

I'm not sure I'd call it fun or a discussion so much as a nerdy compulsion to get things straight, but since my anti-fourth-star stance seems to have got nowhere I'll offer the following for demotion:

Moonrise Kingdom - because no unrepeated route should get four stars (nor should something that will see so little attention take up one and a half pages of a select guidebook, even if it does have a good quote about chicken).

Assault Slab - it's very nice but not that remarkable.

Dragon - fantastically positioned top pitch but getting there is not that great.

And for promotion:

Les Voyageurs - oh wait, it's not even in the book... (crosses similar ground to Voyage of Faith but by a more direct and equally logical line)

The Ancient Mariners - it doesn't get much better than the main pitch.

The Great Escape - I think more than one of the ascensionists have nominated this as up there with the best hard routes in Scotland.

Arrow Route - immaculate and unique.

Passing Out - I admit I haven't done it, but it's an absolute belter of a line and hard to imagine it's not just as good as Whispering

Post edited at 07:23
 mike barnard 26 Aug 2022
In reply to Andy Moles:

Ah but should Whispering Crack be ****? Bit vegetated in places I recall. Reckon it would be deserving had it been Torridonian sandstone

 Will Hunt 26 Aug 2022
In reply to Steve Crowe:

Which route at Sarclet would you omit to fit in The Orchid Hunter? There's no space left on the spread without removing something else.

1
 Steve Crowe Global Crag Moderator 26 Aug 2022
In reply to Will Hunt:

> Which route at Sarclet would you omit to fit in The Orchid Hunter? There's no space left on the spread without removing something else.

Thanks for the response Will. It was supposed to be a joke but it clearly fell flat. Karin and I have enjoyed multiple trips to Caithness this year and every  other route we’ve climbed at Sarclet so far is included. It’s clear from the comments on this thread that there are a lot of worthy contenders that failed to make the cut. Maybe someone should produce a Tick List of near misses. 
 

It must have been incredibly difficult to select just 1760 fantastic routes across 90 diverse crags almost all of them shown on clear photo diagrams then squeeze them into one 616 page book, making it the biggest and best Wired Guide in the series. 
 

In my opinion It’s the most inspirational climbing guidebook to Scottish Rock Climbs ever written. Rob, Kev and Don and the rest of the team should be very proud. 
 

However no guidebook has been printed without some typos so it’s great that Rob has shared a link above for folks to report any they find and maybe the SMC will produce a PDF download at some point. Furthermore if it sells as well as I expect then the second edition could be almost perfect. 
 

(Edit. It wasn’t me who disliked your comment!)
 

Post edited at 11:36
 Will Hunt 26 Aug 2022
In reply to Steve Crowe:

Ah right, I didn't get that!

I don't know the crags so can't comment on accuracy or spot where route selection might be strange, but as somebody who would like to visit more (maybe when the kids aren't so young?) it's definitely inspired me. I've never seen such a psyche-inducing guide for Scotland!

In reply to robertmichaellovell:

world class book that, just got my copy. Though I do think the Wired graphic look it's a bit heavy at times, specially on the cover. I always found the grey band a bit odd. But i assume you inherited that look. It doesn't really matter as the content is mega. Great work as always!

 Steve Crowe Global Crag Moderator 26 Aug 2022
In reply to Will Hunt:

It’s the perfect guidebook for a first visit to Scotland. It covers the very best of the superb classic remote multi pitch mountain routes, popular roadside cragging, spectacular sea cliffs, and some ropeless DWS & bouldering. Every corner of the Scottish Mainland and many of the islands that surround it are included. 

 Gary Latter 26 Aug 2022
In reply to robertmichaellovell:

> I’m pleased that reception is positive. Thanks for kicking off the thread Trevor.

> We’ve got a page where you can let us know about any mistakes you’ve spotted, and about potential corrections for next time. Your feedback is very much appreciated.

> As for what ends up in the book (and to a lesser extent opinions of quality for routes) that is of course down to the authors and their contributors… but you are welcome to make suggestions 🙂

This isn't actually at all helpful to those that have purchased the book. On numerous occasions I've submitted guidebook corrections to the New Routes Editor; when I enquired why they hadn't appeared in the SMC journal, the response was "we've updated our database". Surely this information should be freely available, not buried in the murky depths awaiting future editions in a decade or two?

 robertmichaellovell Global Crag Moderator 26 Aug 2022
In reply to Gary Latter:

Watch this space… we’ve something in the pipeline that should satisfy this.

We’d also anticipate that the time to reprint for a book like this one would be much shorter, and thus opportunity to correct much sooner.

1
In reply to Steve Crowe

> In my opinion It’s the most inspirational climbing guidebook to Scottish Rock Climbs ever written. Rob, Kev and Don and the rest of the team should be very proud. 

Absolutely. Without any doubt at all. Anyway, back to arguing about that critical fourth star......

In reply to Andy Moles:

> I'm not sure I'd call it fun or a discussion so much as a nerdy compulsion to get things straight.

Or just a chance to get some inspiration from other peoples' pick of routes!

> Assault Slab - it's very nice but not that remarkable.

Maybe fulfilling a 4 star quota of lower grade routes? (Have you been nerdy enough to analyse stars by grades?)

> Dragon - fantastically positioned top pitch but getting there is not that great.

Really? I thought it was all great (but we got there by abbing in avoiding the first pitch}. In my top 5 Mountain E1's anyway.

> Les Voyageurs - oh wait, it's not even in the book... (crosses similar ground to Voyage of Faith but by a more direct and equally logical line).

Yes, I thought better than Voyage of Faith for line, climbing and plain outrageousness - the best of the routes I've done on the crag.

> The Ancient Mariners - it doesn't get much better than the main pitch.

Agreed, though it's the only route I've done on the wall, so maybe others are more worthy. I'm more annoyed that another of my rare E5 ticks has been downgraded

I think the U-Ei Regained (E2 5c) combination is truly outstanding, better than U-Ei, possibly 4 stars. Although hybrid, I suspect it is much more often climbed than Paradise Regained being more consistent in difficulty.

> Arrow Route - immaculate and unique. 

Yes, but it kind of lacks a line with the slab being climbable anywhere. Probably worthy though. I'd give Trophy Crack (E1 5b) four stars too.

> Passing Out - I admit I haven't done it, but it's an absolute belter of a line and hard to imagine it's not just as good as Whispering.

I was surprised to see Master of Morgana (HVS 5b) and Minch and Tatties (E1 5b) left out; I thought both superb and they gave me one of my best days climbing in the last couple of years. They would have given a better grade spread for Rubha Hunish. But I've only had the one day there so maybe other stuff is even better - need to go back!

Edit: Anyway, I'm just off to Galloway for the weekend. Might check out the mighty Garheugh...... Or maybe not.

Post edited at 17:12
In reply to Robert Durran:

I thought Les Voyageurs the only E3 I've done on that wall that actually warranted the grade, maybe outwith The Silk Route but most of the others (VoF, Hurried Path, Sirens) would probably be E1/2 max on most inland crags/sea cliffs. I did end up linking P2+3 after my partner belayed far too low and was very greasy so that may account for me finding it difficult. 

Both MoM and Minch and Tatties have superb second pitches, especially Minch and Tatties going right through the middle of that big steep wall. I haven't got a copy of the book in yet but if Northern Exposure has also been left out then that's a bold choice, P2 is a superb and sustained pitch on perfect rock (or at least as perfect as Hunish gives!). Maybe not worth the 4* that Skye Outcrops gives it as P1/3 are fairly easy but certainly 3* in my mind.

In reply to Nathan Adam:

> I thought Les Voyageurs the only E3 I've done on that wall that actually warranted the grade, maybe outwith The Silk Route but most of the others (VoF, Hurried Path, Sirens) would probably be E1/2 max on most inland crags/sea cliffs. I did end up linking P2+3 after my partner belayed far too low and was very greasy so that may account for me finding it difficult. 

I broke a handhold seconding right on the lip of the arch. Definitely the most exciting fall I've ever taken on a top rope!

> Both MoM and Minch and Tatties have superb second pitches, especially Minch and Tatties going right through the middle of that big steep wall.

Yes, I thought that pitch was exceptional.

> I haven't got a copy of the book in yet but if Northern Exposure has also been left out then that's a bold choice.

Northern Lights is in but not Northern Exposure.

Post edited at 17:25
 Andy Moles 26 Aug 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

I'll step back from quibbling +/-1 stars, if that's all we can find to debate it's a big compliment to the guidebook!

The Rubha Hunish selection is slightly questionable (Hasbeenfeast is probably not the second best route below E3 there), but I can see the logic having chosen to keep the crag to a double page spread. And in fact this explains a lot of the inclusions and omissions that struck me when leafing through - either there isn't space for another route (like Finger in the Dyke on Blabheinn) or there's space going spare (like the long description of Moonrise Kingdom).

Ancient Mariners is a bizarre downgrade, it might be E4 in the Lakes if walls like that existed in the Lakes, but at E5 it was completely consistent with all the other big routes on the islands.

Regarding Sarclet and Caithness generally, I would imagine some of those crags could easily merit an extra double page but maybe their ongoing development is a bit too fresh off the press.

 mike barnard 26 Aug 2022
In reply to Andy Moles:

> Ancient Mariners is a bizarre downgrade, it might be E4 in the Lakes if walls like that existed in the Lakes, but at E5 it was completely consistent with all the other big routes on the islands.>

It gets E4 in the Outer Hebrides guide also. Would love to try it, if only on second!

 Andy Moles 26 Aug 2022
In reply to mike barnard:

I know, I did feed back earlier this summer that there seems to be fairly strong consensus for it staying at E5...maybe next time?

It's a proper endurance beast.

In reply to mike barnard:

> It gets E4 in the Outer Hebrides guide also. Would love to try it, if only on second!

A couple of visits to the wall and you'll cruise it

 andrewfraser 27 Aug 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

And presumably you will have no use for this guide in Galloway given that only two cliffs are included, only one of which, Garheugh plays to the area's strength in having the most climbable climate in Scotland? The last selective guide at least had three cliffs, including the granite at Clifton. 

 veteye 27 Aug 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

I've not opened my pre-ordered guide yet, as I am waiting to open it when I have read other books, and when I have more time, as I may be likely to get engrossed in it, and not do enough work that is more important: However, I am getting the idea that it is a guide for elitists who climb above E1-E2. 

How many more moderately graded climbs and crags are involved in this guide?

Most climbers are not in the arena of being able to consider E4's and E5's. Yet it sounds as if whole sections of the book are devoted to the E grades and nothing less. I just do not have enough free time to devote to climbing training, and the nearest wall to me is currently about an hour's drive away in both directions (yes in about 2 years' time, there should be opening of the Peterborough/Ferry Meadows wall, which I believe is of olympic standard, but the wait has already been long).

So did the editors consider the more humble climbers, that I assume form a good part of the majority, or just their own glossy egos?

Post edited at 14:35
2
In reply to veteye:

I think this is often an issue with only having books compiled by climbers who are operating (or have done previously) at a high standard and it comes through in many previous popular selective guides. It would be nice to see some sort of book compiled that suits lower grade climbers, perhaps in a similar style to the 7a Max sport guide? Or at least have a quota of routes at lower grades to be included rather than obscure E5's that may get one ascent in the next 20 years, but being elitist works both ways I guess.

That said, whilst there's a lot of really great climbing in Scotland below HVS-E1, it seems to really come into it's own above that standard at many different crags. I don't think there needs to be much specific training to be operating at that level, I haven't been to the climbing wall consistently (or trained) for years but I spend a lot of time on actual rock and until you hit the E3+ mark, I'd say this is more important than hanging off a finger board or doing laps at the wall for hours. 

I don't know how many climbers commit to training outwith their climbing time but I'd be surprised if there was many recreational's that devoted much time to it. I may very well be quite far off the mark here though!

 veteye 27 Aug 2022
In reply to Nathan Adam:

I do not disagree that being out in the real world of climbing real rock is very often the best thing to improve you: But I cannot be the only one who has not climbed at all for probably 4-5 months, other than a very small amount of time at a disused railway bridge (Slawston bridge ) on two occasions. So a climbing wall would bring me a long way up the grades in a quicker manner, than just waiting to climb. My job is the main impediment at the moment.

1
 andrewfraser 27 Aug 2022
In reply to veteye:

The photos in the guide are fabulous and this will be an inspiring guide for climbers operating at, or aspiring to E2. Personally for someone currently leading VS with the odd HVS, there isn't a lot in it which isn't better covered elsewhere.  While I agree harder routes are often better quality, I do wonder who this guide is aimed at, I can't imagine the intention was to restrict its sales by focussing so heavily on the higher grades. Only time will tell

 robertmichaellovell Global Crag Moderator 27 Aug 2022
In reply to veteye:

Hey there, I’m not going to pretend that there aren’t whole venues where the routes might be aspirational for many, but there are also venues with a very accessible grade range too. You often find that the best routes of a particular crag are all in the same grade range (take the Far East Wall and Eastern Ramparts as an example, at E2-E4), and this book is all about the very best routes at a crag.

I can assure you that the grade spread is definitely part of the conversation between the authors, coordinating author, editor and I. A while back (too long for me to remember the detail, but I’ll dig it out) we reviewed this route by route and it felt reasonable. I can also assure you that we don’t set out on an ego trip – indeed the way that the book is presented you wouldn’t actually know who wrote what – the main objective is to showcase their area.

 robertmichaellovell Global Crag Moderator 27 Aug 2022
In reply to veteye:

Thanks for your preorder by the way, we really appreciate every bit of support we get.

 Andy Moles 27 Aug 2022
In reply to veteye:

> However, I am getting the idea that it is a guide for elitists who climb above E1-E2. 

What's giving you this idea?

I think it's a slightly spurious criticism. I can't immediately bring to mind any good lower grade venues or classic routes that are omitted from this guidebook but which are included in other select Scottish guides. The grade spread seems pretty well balanced to me.

I would however join you in questioning the inclusion of some of the top end stuff. While climbing lower extremes is neither elitist nor elite, the number of people climbing in the higher extremes is tiny. So I'm not sure how much value there is in having things like Magrathea and Rhapsody in a select guide.

1
In reply to veteye:

Up your frequency to Slawston 😁

Although it may be a bit of a drive to get there, you certainly won't be wasting any time on the walk-in.

In reply to Andy Moles:

> I would however join you in questioning the inclusion of some of the top end stuff. While climbing lower extremes is neither elitist nor elite, the number of people climbing in the higher extremes is tiny. So I'm not sure how much value there is in having things like Magrathea and Rhapsody in a select guide.

I don't think you need to be capable of climbing the routes to find their inclusion interesting, especially with a route as famous as Rhapsody. If I was at Dumbarton, I'd definitely want to just have a look at the line and I think I'd be disappointed if the guide didn't show it. Obviously that only goes so far. It wouldn't be worth ditching loads of quality mid-grade routes to include a crag that only had E9s and up. But as Dumbarton is obviously going to be included anyway and there are presumably other routes on that face as well, it makes sense to me.

 Andy Moles 28 Aug 2022
In reply to Luke90:

Yeah on reflection I take that back to some extent. It is interesting to see where these things go. Perhaps a line marked on the topo but using the description space for something more accessible is the best compromise.

In reply to Andy Moles:

Actually with Dumbarton, it would be interesting to have all the hard lines marked on a Topo so that their independence (or lack of) can be properly seen.

And (slight digression), similarly with Steve's routes at Malham which all take advantage of eachother.

(All purely out of interest, no practical use for me 😂)

 gman2012 28 Aug 2022
In reply to Trevor Langhorne:

Yeah, Rhapsody is a variation of Requiem which was ticked last week and tends to get more attention, so the description wouldn't take up much additional space in the guide. And I'm guessing that having a Scottish E11 in there would be good for marketing. The sample pages I've seen look great, bit hefty & pricey for me though so I'll stick with the old one & Gary Latter's for now.

In reply to Trevor Langhorne:

I feel like a stuck record and I know I  not alone in this.

Great for the coffee table, bookshelves and bog, rubbish for the crag.

A thing of beauty but a triumph of form over function.

4
 Andy Moles 28 Aug 2022
In reply to Michael Hood:

> Actually with Dumbarton, it would be interesting to have all the hard lines marked on a Topo so that their independence (or lack of) can be properly seen.

I'm sure you'll get that with the new Lowland Outcrops.

 kwoods 28 Aug 2022
In reply to Andy Moles:

Having marked up the NW face topo I can confirm all the headwall lines will get shown together! (And hopefully published soon). Rhapsody doesn't look so eliminate, the shot is well back from the cliff and the foreshortening disappears to give quite a long branch off Requiem. Also tallies with (I think it was) James Pearson's comment about how something that looks like a small eliminate standing underneath suddenly turns into a monster runout when climbing on it.

Strange headwall, that. Scale always seems a bit warped.

 gman2012 28 Aug 2022
In reply to Andy Moles:

Also in the current Dumbarton Rock guide

 gaz.marshall 29 Aug 2022
In reply to Trevor Langhorne:

Does anyone know the story behind the name change (and upgrade) of Make Mine a Treble (E2 5c) in the Grey Wall Recess on Pabbay? It used be to be called Mixmaster Snipe and was (and felt) E1.

Great book by the way...

In reply to gaz.marshall:

During the new route frenzy of the late 90's and early 00's there were two "rival" depositories of new route information with different climbers sending routes to different people. Quite a lot of lines appeared in both with different FA claims and names. This might explain it.

Post edited at 20:46
 gaz.marshall 29 Aug 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

Fair enough. I loved the name Mixmaster Snipe!

 Steve Crowe Global Crag Moderator 29 Aug 2022
In reply to andrewfraser:

The previous edition of Scottish Rock Climbs had 1200 routes crammed into 480 pages. This latest edition has 1760 routes most of which are on photo diagrams spread across 616 full colour pages. While all the classic sub extremes are included in this edition there are an additional 500 routes of all grades. 

I'd recommend visiting Caithness and especially Latheronwheel for stunning sub extremes if you haven't already been?

 mike barnard 29 Aug 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> And I assume Sarclet Pimpernel missing its third and fourth stars is a typo!

Had a look at the guide at the weekend. Similar to the above, Unicorn (Summer) (E1 5a), Eagle Ridge (Summer) (S) and Non Stop Nitty Gritty (E3 5c) seem to be missing stars?

 andrewfraser 29 Aug 2022
In reply to Steve Crowe:

To be fair there is a lot in this guide to like. I love the format and photos.  I don’t have any issue with the size and weight. If you are going to add in decent topos and action photos and expand the number of routes you will inevitably end up with something which cannot be carried easily. In addition in the digital era carrying a guide becomes less necessary. I   also accept that adding in cliffs which are new and unlikely to be in a guide soon makes it more interesting and avoids seeing stuff which is in all selective guides. It fully accept I may be out of touch with what the average climber is now capable of, but my impression was there was a huge volume of E2-5, but this doesn’t matter if the guide sells and inspires. Removing Clifton I think was a mistake as it removes a half day option near the A74 but hopefully this can be reconsidered for the reprint. Caithness is personally a bit far, but I did like the inclusion of Indian Slab in Ardgour, just reachable in the day. 

 Andy Moles 30 Aug 2022
In reply to mike barnard:

One that I was surprised to see down-starred was Thing of Dreams (E4 6a). I guess someone has been of the opinion that these routes were overrated, though I'd have said they're all worth three. It's nice to have some pleasant surprises though, I'd rather guidebooks erred on the side of too few stars than too many. Roaring Forties (E3 5c) might disappoint a few people at four stars with its sandiness.

 mike barnard 30 Aug 2022
In reply to Andy Moles:

> Roaring Forties (E3 5c) might disappoint a few people at four stars with its sandiness.

I'd agree, and would say they've been a bit generous with the 4 star rating, but then it's been reigned in for the Dalbeg stuff which I think is as good as anywhere single pitch, so again horses for courses.

 Steve Crowe Global Crag Moderator 31 Aug 2022
In reply to andrewfraser:

You’re putting up a strong case for Clifton. I’ve yet to climb in that corner of Scotland. I’m psyched to check out a few crags in the area and Clifton in particular. I’ve got the Lowland Outcrops guide so I have no excuses really. 

Post edited at 12:09
 Mike-W-99 31 Aug 2022
In reply to Steve Crowe:

I used John Biggars website along with LowLand Outcrops if you do make a visit.


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