UKC

So if you're escaping the belay and transitioning to a direct Italian hitch (with double ropes) would it make things easier to just use one of the ropes to simplify the process? I was practicing with double ropes as I usually use them but tying a bunch of half hitches seems a pain with them. Any downsides/problems with just selecting one rope to work from? Can't see why it would be, but I may be missing something.

The easiest way it to not be in the system in the first place.  There is no benefit to being in the system, so construct your belays so you're not.

Don't agree at all. There's a number of situations where belaying direct is better than indirect and vice versa. Nor can I see how it is possible to always be out of the system; you'd need to belay direct, therefore have a powerpoint which just isn't practical in many cases?

It's something you might have to do once in a career if you're unlucky, don't fret about the details, try a few ways then do the best with what you face when the shit hits the fan, you can guarantee there'll be something non-standard making life easier or harder than you trained.

Jk

I'm not sure it's possible to give a reasonable answer to this question because it depends on so many different things, like

- why are you escaping the system?

- are you belaying a leader or a 2nd?

- after you have escaped the system, what are you aiming to do next? Continue to belay? Lower? Abseil? Haul (if so, what type of haul)? Go home for dinner?

If you are escaping the system it's a fair bet that things have gone wrong so what you do depends heavily on the situation. If you are about to have to haul the second, I would use both ropes as hauling tends to slice and dice your ropes and if you cut all the way through one, it's nice to have a backup (well, certainly nice for the second and one tends to assume that you care about them at least a little bit!). If your second is about to prussic, they might like you to keep them very tight on one rope while they prussic up the other.... or, they might find a single half is too thin to prussic and they have to prussic on both halves. If you think there is even a chance you will need to take in/give out differently on each while under tension, you are going to need to have easy set up with an Italian on a different crab. In another situation you might make an Italian with both ropes together.

In principle, Toerag is correct... What he really is stating is: "Eliminate the hazard so it doesn't exist"...meaning, try to setup and operate a belay so that you are not part of the system.

However, your original question does not clearly specific the context in which an 'escape from a belay' would be performed.
1. An 'escape' could be performed while belaying from a position below the climber; or
2. An 'escape' could be performed from a position above the climber.

I think it is possible that 'Toerag' is responding from the context where the belay person is situated above the climber.
If the belay person is situated below the climber, this is potentially more complicated and there are a range of situations/contexts that could apply.

For example, in a multi-pitch lead climbing (trad route) situation... if the lead climber had fallen from a position beyond the half-way point - and was injured and knocked unconscious - this would present worst case scenario for the belay person.
Since the lead climber is past the half-way point, lowering back to the belay position isn't an option (particularly if the route overhangs).
Assuming the belay person is belaying from his/her harness, an 'escape' would be performed and load transferred to the belay anchor system. The belay person is now the 'rescuer'. The belay person would ascend the (now 'fixed') rope to reach the injured lead climber... and so on...

Since you haven't stated if the environment is single or multi-pitch - or trad versus bolted sport route or if the belay person is above or below the climber - its hard to provide a definitive answer to you question.
Also, without knowing if the lead climber has passed the half-way point - its all speculation.
Maybe your question (and intent) is narrowed to a situation where the belay person is situated above the climber (and the climber is 'seconding')? Would be good to have a little more context...


 

I meant belaying a second with double ropes indirect, with anchors out of reach. The second is injured and I need to enact a rescue from a multipitch scenario. So I'd need to create a temporary powerpoint, transition to Italian hitch on the temp pp, create a new powerpoint with the rope then transition to Italian hitch on this. I'm out the system. The second is on an Italian hitch on the new powerpoint. I can then proceed to ascend/descend/stay in place. 

The process I'm happy with it's just the matter of using two ropes seems more convoluted when I could just use one of them? But as Henwardian says, i guess it depends on what you plan to do next.

If one of your double ropes is holding them then sure why not? In the escaping process the second isn't wildly moving about so the rope is being loaded with bodyweight only.
 

Of course you would need to assess all the other risks and act accordingly; is the strand you are planning to use running over a sharp edge? Does it take a direct line or is more zig zaggy? Will removing tension from the other rope cause the second to unduly move or is that tension holding them in place?

These factors may then make you decide whether lowering on one strand or both is a good idea.

As with a lot of these scenarios, it really depends on the specifics and there’s never going to be a single way to solve something or a single correct answer. When running self rescue courses, I find people expect a set of instructions to follow in ‘x’ situation, but it’s never going to be like that in real life.
 

Your approach should be to apply the different tools you have to solve the problem, whilst keeping a few key principles in mind:

- Work with gravity! Going down is usually easier than going up. Not always possible though.

- Work efficiently rather than quickly. If you rush you will make mistakes which will slow you down. Try to think a few steps ahead at all times. Eg. If you remove this prussik now, will you need to put it back on again in 5 minutes (when moving from temp power point to main power point)

- Avoid going down a particular solution until you’re sure it’s the best approach + ensure everything is as reversible as possible. Eg. Don’t start lowering + then remember you’re above the sea, or don’t set up a hoist for the incapacitated second to get stuck on the first piece of gear.  
 

The final one is key for your question.

From what you have described, firstly I would consider getting down to the injured climber to administer first aid before moving from the temp power point to the new power point. Whilst with the climber, I would consider untying one of the half ropes to free it up + give me more kit to work with. This could could come in useful if you intend to set up a long abseil or lower, and arguably make things simpler if you intended on hauling and counter balancing.

With that in mind, it generally makes sense to use one rope when you initially escape the system in most situations, and I can’t think of many where staying on 2 ropes might be beneficial other than traverse problems (positioning), short hauls with an uninjured partner (time saving), or dangling near sharp edges where an extra rope might provide a backup.

However, I suppose the key point to take away is that you could do either, providing it’s within the principles I listed above. 

I wouldn't get too fixated about "escaping  the system ".  There are very few scenarios where it is the best course of action (I've never done it in 25 years plus and I don't know anyone else who has either.  One of the difficulties is if your partner is incapacitated and hanging on the rope, you really don't have a lot of time.  If lowering them down to a ledge isn't an option you really do have a problem. 

I've been on plenty of dodgy belays where belaying directly would be a terrible idea.

Thanks. I wouldn't have thought about untying the rope when giving first aid. That seems a less complicated option than selecting one to use only at the top. I appreciate the thought through answer.

Absolutely. The belayer is often an essential part of the belay in improving directionality or protecting less than perfect anchors. I think that a direct belay should always be thought of as the exception rather than the rule.

Well I've had to do it twice in anger in 40 years climbing, once in a really pretty serious situation where not being able to do so would have been almost unthinkable and once when things might have escalated seriously without being able to do so. Definitely something worth knowing about.

Doesn't always solve the problem but if you're at the top of a route (doesn't always apply - e.g. top of a remote mountain) then you can always tie off the belay, step out of your harness and get help. That would be my first port of call if my 2nd was in a bad way on a seacliff. I could fanny around for half an hour trying to rig a haul system or ab down to my partner or I could get all the kings horses and all the kings men there asap. 

I'm intrigued.  In both cases, was the second still hanging on the rope ?

Yeah hopefully the need never arises, but I'd like to go for MCI, so just trying to work through all the scenarios in my head.

Absolutely. That would be my first thought. I've done the RCI training and that's pretty much what they advocated. The self rescue skills I'm more concerned about for multipitch climbing in serious and remote locations.

As you say, depends on your strategy bu if you're in a multi pitch situation and can't lower to the ground, you will need to either abseil down with the casualty or rope solo up to then go get help or haul the casualty up. Even if you opt to go up, with an unconscious casualty you'd want to nip down first to administer first aid and leave them in a chest harness to keep them upright.

All of this will be a right pain with two ropes in the rescue system. Not sure hauling would even work with two ropes (what you could do though is haul on one and if you're worried about sharp edges just take in on the other one using a guide plate or Italian hitch). Having one rope out of the rescue system could also be handy as it gives you more rope to play with. This could be crucial if your anchors are so spaced out that you can't build a power point with slings - you can then use one rope to build a power point and still have the whole length of the other rope to play with.

If you want to practice any of this, make sure the casualty is backed up with a separate rope which is attached to a separate anchor (unless the anchor is totally bomber). 

You can always use an isolation loop  in the rope ( Australian Belay loop ) clip your harness belay loop into this and your belay device here instead of the harness loop. escaping becomes a matter of unclipping the krab between your harness belay loop and this 

Theres nothing wrong with using one strand of half rope, but the issues of thin ropes loaded over sharp edges is important.

You might also find your prussiks don't grip as well depending on thickness/material/age and you don't want them to slip during the process. 

My MCI rescue day was conducted 'in series' and all rescues were done with a single rope (which good, since thats how everyone practices them). 

Theres some wild suggestions of alternative techniques in this thread, but what you're suggesting is standard and sounds like you've got a good idea of whats going on.

Unless both ropes are needed for safety, for example a wandering line, take the opportunity to free up one the ropes.

You can't haul with two, but can use one as a backup. Abseiling to them on a slack rope will be better. Just getting one free rope could be a game changer

Ah ok. That's helpful to know that's what I'm aiming for. Thanks

If you need to protect a rubbish belay or change the directionality you just clip your belay loop into the side of the powerpoint and do it that way.

This would only work if the central point was lower than your belay loop, which is going to be really hard to then direct belay. Much better to put yourself in the system in the traditional way by tying in with the rope to your anchor points.