UKC

Has there been any past discussion on the forum about Paul Raphaelson's ACR anchor system?

http://www.paulraphaelson.com/downloads/acr.pdf

Or, for that matter, on the question of extension vs equalisation?
I'm sure there must have been, but I can't find it.

In reply to TerryG:
I googled this and decided the works Cock Ring were not work safe!

In reply to TerryG:

why are people coming up with ever more coplex ways of building an anchor? This seems to work, but I just can't see the point in it. It's just more gear to carry up the route.

In reply to TerryG: Overly complicated and if any one anchor should fail then all anchors will br compromised. Or should the cordelette fail in any one point the whole system would fail as eg. rockfall.

In reply to TerryG:

Crikey! how complicated can you make a relatively simple task?

In reply to TerryG:

It's stupid.

Yes it "perfectly" equalizes the pieces of your anchor but sacrifices redundancy. First if a piece of the anchor blows it will shock load the other two since there is space for extension in the system. And if the cordelette blows it's all gone.

If you want to equalize something why not use a sliding-x, extension can be easily limited by some overhand knots.

In reply to TerryG:

A Certain Ratio?

In reply to TerryG: Between the ridiculous overcomplication, total lack of redundancy and bloody stupid name, I'm hoping this is a joke.

In reply to uncontrollable:

I've been using the "sliding x plus two overhand knots" system for any situation where I'm belaying a leader while attached to the crag with a cordelette, and I've grown to really like it.

In reply to TerryG:

I hold no brief for this method at all; I've never used it but I thought it was an interesting idea, worth discussion. I don't quite understand the comments about over-complication - it looks extraordinarily simple to me. As for carrying extra stuff up the crag, being shorter than a standard cordelette it would be lighter and less bulky.
The main issue, of course, is the trade-off between equalisation and extension. The ACR method certainly equalises perfectly thus spreading the load equally and reducing the chances of any one piece blowing; the downside is, of course, extension, with the subsequent potential for shock loading the remaining pieces if one piece does blow. So what's preferable: reduce the potential for any piece to fail in the first place, or reduce the possible consequences of failure?

In reply to TerryG: What's wrong with one rope clove hitched to one bit of gear and the other rope to a second piece? Easily equalized, redundant and won't be shock loaded (much) if one piece fails.

In reply to MG: I suspect that whole article has proved far too subtle for some people....

In reply to TerryG:

It's nice in so much as it's simple and equalises 2/3 pieces about as well as you can with cord.

It's crap in so much as you need to carry a dedicated piece of kit, it extends like crazy if a piece fails/unclips* which will shock the remaining pieces and you and it is unsafe if part of the cord becomes damaged.

*yes it can have each arm knotted to limit this but you lose the simplicity/speed.

Tying in with the rope solves all those problems but it doesn't have a funny name and it can't be marketed as a must-have new product.

jk

In reply to TerryG: What a pile of shite. Shockloading, complicated, uses a piece of kit that has no other use.

Waste of time.

In reply to TerryG:

http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/51/Multi-point%20pre-equal%20ancho...

In reply to MG:

Nothing wrong at all! I think Raphaelson's argument for the ACR is speed of setup when one would otherwise use a cordelette. Whether it's worth carrying a cordelette up the crag is another question.....
The argument put foward by other posters that the ACR is an unnecessary piece of extra kit may well be valid, but that argument applies equally to the cordelette. What I was interested in exploring was the relative merits (or otherwise) of the ACR vs a regular cordelette, not the validity of cordelette-type systems per se.

In reply to george mc:

Now that's what I call an interesting link!
It certainly throws much light on the dynamics of a pre-equalised system. It would be interesting to see the same approach to self-equalizing systems - the comments about the 'magic x' seem contradictory, though perhaps I just haven't understood them properly!

In reply to TerryG:

It seems the the americans love all these type of discussions about various anchor systems. I did wonder when it would cross the atlantic.

A standard cordelette system (which can be set up off either a 240 sling or a custom made piece of cord) does seem to work fine. I know there is the argument that it doesn't equalise all the pieces well, but at the end of the day it's not going to extend very much at all, and with 3 pieces you've alot of redundancy built in. It's also quite quick and simple to set up, clip each piece, drag all the lines together and tie it in one bit knot with a overhand (or fig 8 / 9, if you need more slack taken up).

The ACR method just seems more complicated. Your trying to add in more things to your system. Yes it is better equalised, but the anchors ar not independant and it will suffer from extension if a piece blows out. All in all the whole system seems too complicated. Paul Reaplaelson seems to have just tried to re-invent the wheel a little here?

At the end of the day when you build an anchor on a cordelette style system I was always under the impression that you are confident of ALL your anchors, especially if your going to be belaying directly off them (with a guide plate etc). If there is any doubt about the anchors your using then buildit out of the rope(s), belaying off your waist and doing everything you can to try and not shock load them seems much more approiate.

these are just my thoughts

In reply to mlmatt:

Noooooo! I never intended to be an instrument of American hegemony! Is it too late to delete this thread?!

In reply to TerryG:

Your not, don't worry. I was just pointing out that every other thread on an american climbing forum is something to do with setting up anchors and the best was to do it.

It would all be solved if they started climbing on double ropes and just clove hitched each anchor like us brits

In reply to TerryG:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocp1EYmjopI&feature=channel

anyone seen this one
no comment....

In reply to uncontrollable: