UKC

i have just read " by The villian" by jim Perrin

really enjoyed the quality of the writing.

he makes reference to how well Whillians lectues were received. how good his story telling was

do any recordings of lectures exist?

I'm not sure if they do or not but....

This is a great film - Don and Joe's last climb,   youtube.com/watch?v=-m_P_RzrQu4& 

Joe to Don who's just managed to smoke a cigarette under his motorbike crash helmet, totally deadpan "You look in fine athletic trim".

Oh - Its Whillans, not Whillians.

I went to his Annapurna  lecture in Bangor in October1970. 

To be honest I didn't really like his delivery and for some reason it grated when he described Ian Clough's death under a falling serac as being like "having a bus fall on you".

I never met Whillans myself but he did attend at least one of the old Black Pudding Team events that were held at the Black Dog in Belmont. I don't know if he gave lectures or if he was just there as an honoured guest. It's a long time since I read The Villain but it left me with the impression that I wouldn't have wanted to meet Don. He had a fascinating back story and achieved so much in his earlier climbing career but it was all squandered by his attitude and lifestyle. Perrin and many other sources (including Joe Brown) all attest to what an unpleasant character he could be. I know someone who once met Whillans in one of the Llanberis bars and plied him with a few pints in the hope of getting him to go climbing. It was more for the fact of climbing with a legend than the pleasure of his company? Whillans of course departed on his bike forthwith.

I also read THE VILLAIN with great interest, one thing I got from it (apart from the history parts) was what a brilliant UK rock climber, and mountaineer, he was

I went to a Whillan's talk  in 70s on on the rather infamous international expedition to Everest SW Face. London Uni, poorly attended, entertaining , dry wit and made the most of a perhaps unremarkable set of slides. Remember he said he'd shown them to his non-climbing neighbor whose constructive criticism was: "You need more people in your pictures, Don".

Without a doubt. I think a lot of people tolerated him or overlooked his unpleasant character because he was superb at them. If you were in a tight fix he was your man.

That reminds me of my all-time favourite TRUE comment from a non-climbing American looking one day at either mountains or photos of mountains: "GODDAM MOUNTAINS, BLOCKING OUT THE VIEW"

I attended a  Whillans lecture at  Bolton Medical Institute to Bolton Medical Society and funded by  a drug company.

It was about the 1972 Everest South Face Expedition. It must have been late 1972 or first half of 1973 as I  was in my last year at school.  No recording sadly. I was utterly in awe of  him and thought it was wonderful. 

You might perhaps have yet to read 'A Short Walk with Whillans'. Excellent lock-down therapy.

https://rockandice.com/climbing-epics/a-short-walk-with-whillans/

Great article - thanks a lot

Don Whillans was a hilarious speaker, very funny, modest and authoritative. The most hilarious lecture I ever heard him present was the one about Roraima, including the famous line,

"I were climbing up this steep face and I pulled up to a ledge and there were this huge tarantula staring me in the face, so I smashed it wid me peg 'ammer and it spiralled all the way to the ground a thousand feet below like a dead helicopter".

A lot of stuff goes on round here (North Lakes) which is very much off the radar. There are many climbers close by, quite a few famous, some less so. A couple of years ago we had a Hesket Spiders lecture evening where there were a couple of talks about new routes, climbing in France, then Doug Scott gave an excellent talk about Don. He wanted to correct the impression that Don was (according to Perrin) "a villain". It was a generous, adulatory little talk, much enjoyed and quite touching. Clearly Don to those who really knew him was a top man, very kind, likeable, tough yes, but very fair. Doug was certainly very complimentary about Don. There are many Whillans jokes doing the rounds, one of the best being the World Cup joke when Whillans gave his response to Dyrenfurth's comments on "national sports" on the International Everest Expedition.

Don was a diamond. I met him once in the Llanberis pub, and college friends of mine lived next to him in Lancashire, Loveclough or Crawshawbooth, somewhere like that, but he had already started his beer training.
DC

Not a lecture but an interview with Ken Wilson.

youtube.com/watch?v=o2OkJh2hXiY&

The two things that got my about Perrin's books was that there was no discussion of the apparent change in Whillans' character over the course of his life; or any explanation for why Whillans - apparently a b*stard - seemed to maintain many good friendships right until the end.

It was said by someone once that biographies should be written by people who ultimately like/love/respect their subjects. I'm not sure Perrin met that criterion.  

A hagiography? Don’t see the point of that, why not present a fair representation as opposed to a “hero worship” pile of guff? There’s way too much hero worship around - nobody’s perfect, we all have our flaws...

I had similar thoughts after reading the book, I wondered really why Perrin had actually written it given that he appeared to dislike Whillans so much. Now that dislike could have been totally justified, I don't know as I never met Whillans, but I would need to have some respect or empathy for someone if I intended to spend time writing a book about them. 

Just pipped me to the same point. You need a certain detachment to get a rounded warts and all view. Whillans had many facets, that's why he was so interesting. Lots of historical figures are likewise full of contradiction. I recall from Perrin that as a child Don beat someone up for being cruel to a cat.

Possibly a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Thanks for that! Lovely.

Joe (trying to get to some slack) - "The rope's not coming up, are you standing on it?"

Don - "Yes. Do you want me to get off it..."

Whillans is up there with the greats in terms of ability and talent. for both mountaineering and rock climbing, easily the equal more household names such as Bonnington and Brown. 

He was also instrumental in the design and development of new gear, (correct me if I'm wrong) the Whillans harness was the first harness to raise the legs into a sitting position,  It was pretty close to the modern sit harness we all use today.  It's just that it had a strap that went between the legs that made it a particularly uncomfortable fall for gentlemen.   The Whillans box tent was grounbreaking and stood up better than any of its contemporaries.

His dry wit and humour were legendary (though some of the better known stories probably didn't happen) .

So there's a lot to like about him.  But then there's the bad stuff.  Propensity for violence, reputation around women, alcoholism etc.  I think it's worth noting some of the bad stuff went beyond the "lovable rougue" category and tipped him into the "utter bastard" or even the "complete c***" categories, and I think it's for this reason he was never lauded or honored as much as his contemporaries.

He's a fascinating character and I love learning more about him.  

Ah, the Whillans harness! I kept mine on the go way beyond the modern era of leg loop versions. Strangely, I used to find it a lot more comfortable than later harnesses I had. I much preferred it for abbing in and carrying gardening kit - I could slot my ice axe straight through the gear loop. Took some big lobs in it over the years. I do talk a bit like Joe Pasquale though ....

I thought the reason he was never honoured was his prosecution after getting into a fight with a Manchester bus conductor.

There was at least one predecessor. I had a Davek sit harness (still in my loft).

If my memory serves the Whillan's Harness was almost ubiquitous in the UK into the 80s. IHe initially made one up during an expedition and it was for use on fixed ropes, not for leading. The crutch karabiner on the commercial harness did protect the testicles, but it directed the rope lower on the body and sometimes resulted in hanging upside down after a fall. It was very comfortable to sit in and fall on and probably more of the weight was taken on the backside than many modern harnesses.

I used my Davek for many years but the waist was made of ridiculously stiff tape with the ends fastened by the tying in knot in the rope (the buckle was basically for convenience when unroped, but I had to improvise braces to keep mine up). I was pretty stupid not changing it for a Whillans, I had a particularly painful experience when I forgot to arrange one of the fixed leg loops, which trapped part of me during a long, jerky abseil.

I don't think JP went into the Villain project 'hating' Whillans. I get the impression his views were formed whilst doing his research.

Joe: "Is that helmet to protect your head or keep you fag dry?"
Don: "Keep me fag dry"

I read The Villain years ago and enjoyed it. I leant it to a friend who took it on holiday where the binding melted in the sun. He said he cried at the end because Don had passed away, even though he was, unequivocally, a b*****d.

I have Portrait Of A Mountaineer on the shelf, yet to read. I guess now is the time, along with The Hard Years.

Yes I think they were talking about an honour for him until that happened?  

Ha!  Good to hear from somebody who knows!

Yeah I thought there must have been.... And I think there was some kind of addition to a swami belt that effectively did the same?

Yes I read one of Bonnington's books where they tested out the Whillans harness on for the first time (think it was Everest '70?) they were all in agreement about what a great piece of kit they were. Interesting that they would have been mostly used on fixed ropes just like you say, hadn't ocurred to me that that's what they were primarily designed for.

Not sure, it may have been the 1970 Annapurna S Face expedition.

Edit: it was Annapurna.....apparently it was made by Troll to Whillans's design for the expedition (just looked on Wikipedia). If anyone is interested they can look at  http://www.smhc.co.uk/objects_item.asp?item_id=32555   for provenance and instructions for using.

'A hagiography? ' Not at all - you can still like/love someone while being fully aware of their flaws. I think the remark was originally made by a biographer of Oscar Wilde, who still gave a warts and all account of his life.

Mind you, I've got a 2nd hand Whillans anecdote of my own, told me by the bloke who accompanied Whillans on the first ascent of Aiguille Poicenot in Patagonia. They'd had a tough 20+ hour day doing the FA, and Frank was all in; he needed a drink so when they came to a stream Frank asked Whillans if he would get his mug off the back of his rucsac for him. 'Get it your f*cking self' came back the reply from the master of wit and repartee.

Actually just found a UKC thread which takes me back. My first  "harness" was a hemp waistband, while friends had a simple tape waistband, padded tunnel to go round the loop of a waist tie in, or chest harness constructed from cord. There's good descriptions of the Whillans and Davek.

  https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/gear/invention_of_climbing_harness-440...

I went to a Whillans lecture in Colne Lancs in the late sixties, can't remember what it was about at the time. But as he was a friend of my brother who'd done a few routes in the Alps including the North face of the Dru the year before with Don, he came to the George and Dragon in Barrowford after the lecture for a drink and chat. I say drink, what he consummed in the space of an hour (at least a gallon) was jaw dropping. And to top it all after throwing out time he drove me and my brother home to Barnoldswick about 5 miles in the opposite direction to where lived. Then drove the 25 miles back home to Crawshawbooth where he lived at the time.

One thing I remember my brother telling me about Don when he climbed in the Alps with him( my brother had to do all the leading at the time), was not his climbing prowess (his drinking was taking over in a big way) but his uncanny ability and experience to know when to venture on to the big hills and when not to.

I think it was the drink driving arrest and assaulting a number of cops in the 1970’s that put the lid on any honours being awarded.

I went to at least two lectures by him. One in c. 1971 at Bristol University I think, where he was brilliantly funny and entertaining, and then one years later, I think to the Oread in Derby, which was disappointingly bad in every way. Extremely ill-prepared (well, not prepared at all) and totally unfunny. I think he only stayed for a minute or two afterwards and just pissed off. But he was such a complicated character and so hard to generalise about. I haven't got anything to add to what I wrote 15 years ago when I was given the awesome job by Alan of reviewing 'The Villain'. https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/publications/other_publications/jim_perrins...

My perception is JP never liked Whillans and I think this comes out in the book. I don’t think he should have written it with an agenda to pursue a character defamation. I did meet Whillans a few times socially and he could be difficult, but so it has to be said could JP himself. Social interaction and behaviour  was a lot different in those days. As an aside I once attended a meal at Nat Allen’s house in Buxton where Joe B and Don met for perhaps the last time. Don died not long after. A fascinating evening.

I organised this lecture and at the time  those were my thoughts as well even though it was meant as a joke..  He was not an easy character. 

It's a while since I read it but I remember thinking it was pretty balanced. I never got the impression he had an agenda to defame Whillans. 

I always preferred the Myth & Legend DVD that came out long after the book,  I found it a much more balanced account

When I started climbing in 1976 it was the only harness you could buy, ISTR. And after having read how quickly you suffocated if you fell/hung of a rope belt (about 10mins?) I was very appreciative! The Black Diamond Bod Harness (which you can still buy) is a close modern equivalent.

Up there with EBs and figure of eight descenders, in terms of `game changers' when I was a kid (especially the latter, having been taught how to do a `classic' abseil at school...something I never fancied having to repeat)

PS. Bizarre to see that you can buy a Troll Whillans harness on eBay...

I did. He was the wrong man to write the biography, too close to Don and perhaps too close to his wife which might have skewed his perception. 

Many of the outstanding talents in this world are flawed and I'm not sure that Don Whillans was any better or worse than most. I think JP might have had a little more empathy given his own situation.

I had the same experience re Whillans lectures. He gave one to a club I helped run in the early 80's whch was perfunctory and he himself was offhand, monosyllabic and buggered off immediately afterwards (unlike John Barry a few weeks later, who came to the pub and was hilarious both on stage and off). A few years later I saw Don give a talk with (I think) Pete Boardman which was brilliant. With a straight man to bounce off he was hilarious. Just depended on what mood he was in, I guess. Undoubtedly one of the greats though, hopefully he will be remembered for his climbs rather than his antisocial side.

Re the harnesses, I had my first leader fall on a borrowed Whillans Harness - it made sure I went out and bought one without a crotch strap a few days later.

I never liked the Whillans harness for that reason and stuck with my Troll waistbelt until the later climbing harnesses with leg loops, but no crotch strap, appeared

As well as the harness didn't he also design the Whillans box tent?  Perhaps not so ubiquitous as the harness but my impression of it through many climbing memoirs is that it was a good piece of kit.

Bought my dad a whillans harness from the Foundry boot sale after  he held me on a waist sling when I fell top, to very near bottom on right unconquerable. Unfortunately my next outing saw me do the same on Higger Tor. Old man said , enough son, this is real pain. 😁

I read the book having read the previous 'ghost written' one and having, over the years, talked to quite a few people who had direct experience of him and I thought it a pretty balanced account that, if anything, could have been a lot more negative. I've met quite a few people who like to believe that 'Whillans was the real genius who had his glory stolen from him'. People seem to like the idea of the uncompromising non-conformist who never got the breaks he deserved. I don't buy it.

Ah! Looking at your initials, is there a possibility I climbed Longland's Climb with you a year or so later on my first visit to Cloggy?

Ignore that, the name has come to me now and it doesn't match!

Yes that's the one!  Have read a few of his books and they all seem to merge into one in my head!  Annapurna was 70, SW Face of Everest was '72.   

Could never remember dates in History class.

Both cracking reads by the way.  Not a bad writer, Bonnington.

Yes, and some other bits and bobs including a hammer he called the Whammer, it was a combined ice axe, peg hammer and abseil device.

Didn't catch on (it was probably a bit crap for all 3 jobs!?) shame as the name was great!

Yeah I though it was fairly balanced too, not the character assasination people seem to think.  I've read far worse about Whillans from other sources!

I think it's important to recognise that Don's character changed over the years and became almost unrecognisable just as his physique did too.

In his earlier years, including the time he spent climbing new routes with Joe Brown, he was short muscular, full of life and positivity and tended to order an orange juice in the pub (or one between 6 of them!).  He was very different from the overweight embittered violent alcoholic of his later years.

He became somewhat of a pastiche of himself in later years (with a dash of Andy Capp thrown in for good measure), sadly this is the Brown most will remember and, given the years, are most likely to have met.  That Joe Brown was a different man to the one who achieved so much.

… And bottle opener. Don't forget that.

I completely accept that Whillans was a flawed character, I just don't think JP was the right person to write the biography.

It was!?  I didn't know that, but that figures.  Booze had set in by '70

But then anything is a bottle when you've got the technique right - keys, phone, lighter, the dog etc...

There's a line in Portrait of a Mountaineer that Perrin completely  ignores. At some point Ormerod says that one of Whillan's big disappointments was that no-one told him he could have become a PE teacher if he'd worked just a bit harder at school... I think that's possibly a very telling comment.  To realise that he'd missed out on a well paid professional career he could have been really good at … maybe. 

Erm..  did you mean to segue into talking about Joe Brown here, or do you still mean Whillans?

Just watched this. You can see easily the huge gulf in attitude and ability that had opened between them. I wonder who's idea it had been to make the film and would either of them have climbed it if it wasn't for the filming?

I thought immediately of Brian Glover in "Kes"........

Ah yes, of course, repeated typos. Meant Whillans but my brain was making me typing Brown?!? 

Regarding typos there are one or two guidebook entries with FAs credited to a D William's!

Well you were talking about how much he changed(!)

Great to see that again. I’ve never forgotten that bit where Joe is talking about the guy abseiling down the corner off his bootlace to prove he hadn’t lost his bottle and Don (deliberately) misinterprets it to speculate abseiling with one boot on proves you’ve not lost your bottle - absolute belter! 

Surely you meant Whillans not Brown in your last paragraph

That could've been my mate Delilah Williams nee Wolterdijnck

Yep - see the reply to me above, it was just one of those typos you get when half your brain moves on before the other half has finished what it's doing.

Thanks!  

My bloody brain does that all the time, can be awfully embarrassing sometimes!

Well done thread!  We've got that video of Don and Joe onto Friday Night Video, or perhaps it's just some cosmic coincidence?  Whatever good to see it up.

Whillans and Bonnington on Dovedale Groove about the same time as the Gates video.

youtube.com/watch?v=6NBdLNw4ULw&

I only saw him once, in 1970. I was on Rap on Castell Helen, which at the time was very close to my limit. As I approached the halfway ledge, somewhat bug-eyed and thinking I might die, I looked up and Whillans was looking down at me with the sort of interest that suggested he thought I might die too. There was no word of encouragement or offer of a rope. When I finally made it to the belay I found that Brown was leading the top pitch and, I think, Claude Davis made up the three.

There was a brand new peg in the belay so when my mate arrived I said "We'll have that when we go." Whillans, who was starting the second pitch, turned, looked at me and just said "Leave it" in a somewhat menacing tone. I often wonder if that peg is still there because suddenly the idea of swag seemed much less attractive to me.

When they were setting up film Dovedale groove. Whillans got fed up and set off to drive back home. A producer had to chase after him and persuade him to return. I suspect at a much increased fee.

It was the Borrowdale Dance in Rosthwaite the weekend when they were filming Eagle Front. A helicopter landed and out of it jumped the great and good of the keswick scene who had jobs as safety guys .Talk about making an entrance.

Livesey hadnt being doing a lot of climbing when he had to lead footless crow but he finally got up it late in the day. No time for Bonnington to second it. Overnight Livesey + safety crew abseiled down the route and "adjusted" the gear. Moving the nuts so they were barely seated, putting cigarette papers between the cams of friends and the rock. Next day when Bonners had to second route every time he tried to use aid it came out. Still he got up it. A real "performer".

Just watching this now and spotted the first continuity error. In the opening shots the pair seem to be riding up the Struggle, over the Kirkstone Pass - logical enough if you were heading for Dove Crag on the Patterdale side. Next minute they're riding out of the Newlands Valley - you can see Causey Pike behind! What crap navigating.

I imagine it is. You don't really expect it, otherwise you wouldn't be there, and then you're flat as a pancake, brown bread. 

In my experience outward niceties, politeness and social norms are completely irrelevant to the character of a person in a crap situation. There are plenty of nice people who fall to bits when things get tough and plenty of arseholes who will do everything humanly or inhumanly possible to achieve an objective.

In Jim Perrin's obituary of Brown, he recalls that Brown effectively blackballed him from the Kangchenuga expedition, I expect because he was bone idle around camp, didn't brew or cook, that is aside from his confrontational character. Whillans never forgot this slight.

Although I can belief he would not have made much effort to get Don included, are you reading a different orbituary ? In the Guardian Jim wrote "...apparent refusal to press for Whillans's inclusion – something he was in no position to do - was seen by the latter as a betrayal,"

Didnt read it that way at all...Joe was in no position to demand that Don was involved....didn't blackball him.

I also get the impression it didnt take a lot for Don to see a slight.

He went ballistic when Bonnington made the first british ascent of NFOE, when he had to leave due to lack on funds for example..

I remember going to a lecture about climbing ‘the lost world’ as well. When asked about any near misses, if I remember correctly (or maybe it’s an urban myth) he said ‘we ran out of cigarettes and had to get the Brazilian Air Force to do a parachute drop of cigs into base camp....’

In both of the Whillans videos I've watched recently (with Brown and Bonington) Don seems to have buried the hatchet with both men. The 'offending' events were many years past and much water had flowed under the bridge. Or perhaps he bit his tongue and took the money? Who knows.

Interesting, i always thought the relationship both videos were strained but then i remember that Joe and Don were never good friends.

Yes, Don does seem to be quite cordial with both men but there is a hint of tension or something under the surface. I do wonder if it was just for the money.

Sorry to appear thick but what is NFOE? Thanks

N face of the Eiger

North Face of Eiger chief

Thanks, I can't believe I didn't see that (I'm blaming...... what? The weather)

alcohol consumption? O

From what I have heard (very much second and third hand, at best) Bonnington did a call round members of the 72 southwest face expedition to canvas opinion on Whillans inclusion-no one spoke in his favour, seemingly because he did not pull his weight on the grunt work-cooking, cleaning etc, considering this stuff beneath him. Having said that, Whillans was to only one to try to rescue Harsh in a dreadful storm. Not sure if I would have liked to have met him.

No, I don't drink! Got to blame SOMEONE / something though.... but on second thoughts if I can't get NFOE, I'll never think of that either, oh well

Strictly speaking, I should have probably said NFOTE

He could be the most likeable person there was, or (and the switch could happen very suddenly) the biggest bastard ever. He did not suffer fools gladly. Anyone who had a different opinion to him was wrong! Even with a big belly he was a pleasure to watch and very occasionally climb with. In the bar it was always your round!

Or even more strictly, TNFOTE - no wonder I didn't get it - honestly

Time to sleep, it's 11.30 PM here in South Korea or should I say in SK

Slovakia ?

At the time, I thought Bonington had binned Whillans. But I'm sure I read something, a few years ago, where it seemed that Bonington had canvassed opinion. Good leadership, if so. Iirc, generally folk weren't too keen (re laziness, etc) and Haston was firmly against. Scott stuck up for him on the grounds of fair play. But the others weren't having it.

If this is the case, it's terribly sad but it was Whillans' fault.

If you were right up shit creek, you'd want Whillans by your side. The rest of the time, not so much. Seems as though, if you weren't a threat, he'd be OK with you. But, if you were perceived as a threat, it was a different story.

Re the televised ascents with Brown and Bonington, I too had the feeling that there was tension beneath the surface - on his side. My impression is that both Brown and Bonington were magnanimous towards him but he just wouldn't let stuff go. And, if you don't let stuff go, it eats away at you.

I think the Brian Nally rescue on the Eiger showed Whillans at his best - impressive and humane.

Mick

Absolutely right IMO, and I just want to focus on things like that for Whillans

'You working for Trump's press team?

These are the actual words that JP used:

As a result Brown was invited to join Charles Evans's reconnaissance expedition in 1955 to Kanchenjunga, the world's third highest peak, and its highest unclimbed one at that time. (Brown's acceptance, and apparent refusal to press for Whillans's inclusion – something he was in no position to do - was seen by the latter as a betrayal, and the two men, who had never been close friends, climbed less frequently together thereafter.) 

I met Whillans twice. When I was a student at Bristol University in about 1967 or 68 we wrote to Whillans on the off-chance and asked him would he like to deliver us a lecture and  pompously suggested he might talk about "personal reflections in Mountaineering"  . He wrote back rapidly , said he'd be happy to come down (I can't remember the fee but it can't have been much as we had little funds) show us some slides and talk generally. I went to pick him up at Temple Meads station. He was entirely sober, wouldn't drink any alcohol before his talk and only drank moderately afterwards. His talk to a good audience was brilliant with excellent rapport, entirely without notes and his slides were good as well. He mingled freely with everyone after.

I met him one more time, in NZ at New Year 1979 (This was the trip described in JP's book - his last guiding trip, to Mount Aspiring) We were setting off up the Haast ridge to the basin under Mount Cook. It starts as a suicidally loose ridge then becomes a snow-ice arête. we were climbing with crampons and axes and were astonished to see a rotund figure come running and sliding down towards us, we were further surprised to see him wearing sand shoes. This was Whillans. He stopped and was most friendly asking us our plans giving us general advice on the best line to take. He remembered the Bristol trip well. So my memory of Whillans is of a real gent, great conversationalist as well as a climber much harder than myself. I enjoyed the JP book also.

Great to hear positive Whillans stories.

Thank you very much indeed for that account.

Mick