UKC

I see the contents page has been published

https://www.adventurebooks.com/cdn/shop/files/Extreme_Rock_HB_Issuu.pdf?v=8...

Aw crap, half of my 'extreme rock ticks' (i.e. the easy ones!) Have been cut!

Either way im reserving the bookshelves space now looks mega!

Interesting list. I’ve lost a fair number and gained a fair number. Marginally down overall. Of the ones I’ve lost, Trilogy is the one that surprised me. The Pembroke list seems a bit light - not sure what I’d have put in exactly, maybe stuff like Star Wars, Bloody Sunday, Pleasure Dome and Trevallen Pillar. I’ve done harder routes there, but these are the ones where I have stand-out memories.

Yes, half of the choices for Pembroke seem very odd. Perhaps not unrelated to the (local) authors? Hmm.

The book as a whole looks like a great addition tho 

The Pembroke selection is on the whole better than in the original, even if most of the routes still won’t be top of my list. There’s so much there though that it’s hard to do it justice. The Scottish list is perhaps a bit light but again there’s so much choice! Perhaps the book should be in 4 volumes, covering Ireland as well. 

The big news though....

No Indian face, Masters wall or Revelations? Could this be the opening that the 'purile ticker' masses have been waiting for?

Sigh, of my 12 I've lost 7 and gained none! I'd just talked myself down from buying a copy, but looks like I'm going to have to after all...

Duiru seems like a strange inclusion given that it's a link up that hasn't seen much traffic. I wasn't even aware of it.

Wow, 13, and a few more that might be realistic which is more than I thought.

Edit: I saw that cover photo and immediately thought 'I hope it's Fay and not Pacemaker!'

23, It would be nice to get fit again to tick some more, but I'm not sure that could happen

From the Preface:

"This edition covers routes in the grade range from E1 to E7 which is mostly consistent with the original book and overlaps in the lower grades with Hard Rock. The original edition squeezed in Indian Face at the last moment, but this has been bumped to the next book in the series, Ultimate Rock, which will cover cutting-edge trad routes from E6 to E11."

The original puerile ticker is too old now, as am I.

Completed it mate...

On High Tor, surely Bastille should be there.

Left field choices for Pembroke. Of all the amazing classic 5* routes there...

Also slightly odd to keep things like Caveman at Berry Head in there which according to logbooks hasn't been reclimbed since a rockfall in 2018

Thought that about Caveman - but perhaps it’s been done since. 

Thanks to Brown for putting together the ticklist so quickly. Please no one subscribe to it until tomorrow. Let me enjoy my top position on the leaderboard for at least one night . 

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/ticklists/extreme_rock_ii-10082#info

Agreed. Also no Prozac link. 

I see that he's included Suicide Wall Routes 1 and 2, I would be surprised if it wasn't actually just Route 1?

As I based it off the contents page photo and did it on the train I'd not be surprised either tbh

I've gone from 9 to 1.

Down from 75 to 48. A brutal downgrade. On the plus side, lots of routes to go at and a slim chance of completing them all if I resort to headpointing…

There will also be an extended tick list featuring the ‘other routes’, as well as the complete tick list featuring all the routes name checke.

Surely all that the downgrades in numbers show are that you are shallow and were chasing the ticks?

Well indeed, I can chase other ticks now 🤣

I do think that these selected climbs books are great for getting you to places you might not think of visiting. 

38 down to 24.  And since I did none of them this century, that’s probably the way it will stay 

Henry VIII has nothing on Grant, this is going to create  schism for the ages. I definitely and first edition fundamentalist!

16, in the Peak, North Wales and South West, and all more than 30 years ago. I didn’t seem to get around as much back then climbing trad.

Book which was conceived categorically NOT as a ticklist.

Five minutes after index preview is released: Ticklist.

Wonderful stuff.

What was the motivation for conceiving it not as a ticklist out of interest and how could it have been avoided? Personally, I don't see how a ticklist is a bad thing. As Misha points out, by aiming to tick them, it gets you to some amazing places, makes you aware of routes (and crags) there were perhaps off your radar. 

Ken Wilson explains: ‘The term "Puerile ticking" was coined, half in jest, and rather later, during an interview I gave to Geoff Birtles at the time of the publication of Classic Rock. I did not wish to encourage slavish adherence to the list, it was merely a guide line. To counteract the tendency, a list of other equally good climbs was added at the end of Classic Rock.’

See https://www.needlesports.com/Information/Features/Hard-Rock/Hard-Rock-or-40...

The inclusion of The Scoop in Hard Rock was supposedly (not sure there is a clear source) a “stopper” route for wannabe tickers.

Oh, maybe I misunderstood Andy then. I was somewhat aware of Ken Wilson's view re Extreme Rock I and ticklists. I thought Andy was also suggesting Extreme Rock II was not intended as a ticklist as well?

How can there be 3 routes in the Avon Gorge and none at Fairhead?

I wonder wether there has been a missed opportunity in re publishing Extreme Rock 2 ?

Its a little like re working a classic film and sometimes the idea can never be as good or as refreshing as the original idea. Since the original was first published there are lots of more fairly hard quality routes that would have fitted the billing to meet the criteria - nothing again from Staffs grit (my home territory) and I can think of many more routes which have gained 'classic' status in the South West (Wintour's Leap being one crag, Pembroke and North & Mid Wales to which I know after climbing many with my brother. Certainly keep a few of the most famous classics to highlight the areas and bring attention to the book.

I worked with Ken on a couple of his other books and I was always intrigued by his creative vision for Extreme Rock which was an intention to create a lavish book with great photography and writing and not a just a 'tick list' in the genre of the previous editions of Hard & Classic etc. He was a master of meticulous attention to detail i.e. finding good photo material and interesting writers - to which there are plenty good creatives around today. 

Yeah but a lot of (most?) climbers love ticklists, so this was to be expected and it’s no bad thing. I’ve always assumed that these coffee table type books are intended to showcase climbing areas and routes, so it’s only natural that people would want to go and climb them. 

Look forward to reading your essays. 

And nothing at cheddar!

exactly

It's GB, not UK? (Not that that excuses 3 routes at Avon!)

Club Crack (forgettable) and no Prozac Link (memorabable)? mmmm. I suppose it was an impossible task. Also the cover looks very dated, I wander whether that was intentional to make it blend with the old version. I thought the new Hard Rock cover did a far better job.

Oh I see, I quite never understand which is which, fair enough

That must hurt! 75 to 48 ouch! I'm down to 21 from 28, not so bad

Down from 160 to 108 - an even more brutal downgrade...!

Of the new ones, I can aspire to perhaps a dozen, if the stars all align.

There are some interesting challenges in the new additions.  Indian Face with its death runout may have gone, but The Last Queen of Scotland with its challenging logistics and death approach will probably see even fewer successful ticks (though it looks like a fantastic route).

Inevitably I can think of lots of routes in the right grade spectrum which are more deserving than those chosen, but I'm pleased to see that the outstanding ommission from the frst edition, Antiworlds, has made the cut this time...

Neil

Partly due to the sport routes being removed (rightly so) but I’m curious what else got taken out / added. I’ll do a comparison. Another difference that comes to mind is that the Pembroke selection was mostly changed.

You've got to laugh though right?

I enjoy a ticklist as much as the next person, though I prefer to make up my own

Yours is a pretty big downgrade, the question I want to ask though is what is Caffs total in the new edition? I'm not aware of him having done Antiworlds.... The Roaring Boys. Big John and The Last Queen of Scotland are logistically the most challenging for him.

At least it will give him something to do with his time.

how about you Ben you must be vying with Neil for the hundred plus club 😉

The only reason I can think of for including Club Crack is history. I thought it was a pretty poor route, perhaps because I failed on it!

Agreed. I thought Uhuru the outstanding route there, just brilliant. The others are nae bad though

It a long time since I did it but I remember being blown away by how good it was. 

Ouch! Well, it’s the experiences that count. 
 

I suspect Zero might put a lot of people off…

The St Kilda one in this list is surely the stopper now, assuming it's not the formerly seedy now trendy inner suburb of Melbourne where the climb is to be found! 

Some great routes but whats the earliest route featured now ? Suicide Wall must be before Right Eliminate, anything earlier ?

Pull my Daisy or Astral Stroll would be my suggestions as the easiest.

Not sure I agree with huge culls from the original edition. 

Sad to see the Strand, Grey Panther, Internationale, the Pant Ifan routes go.

I wonder what the rationale behind swapping Nazgul for White Wizard? I thought the former was better. 

I actually think I’ve gained more than I’ve lost. But weird list - pull my daisy instead of Poetry Pink, for example? 

Me too. I've gone from 44 down to just 22!

So for mortals...

I wonder what the tick list number would be if you had only "stood at the base" of the route to claim a "form of" tick.  You don't even have to be equipped to climb, you could just be out for a dog walk.  But you only get the tick if you've been to the very base.

If you just walked to each one then you will have been to all the best climbing crags in the UK.  Made the effort to see the best lines the UK has to offer up close. 

I think that would be worth a little nod of respect.... perhaps.

I love the geometry of the cover image.

Hopefully some of those are the ones that were not logging as dogged lead so it shows as a green tick in the ticklist

But still better than some people ticking a route that has fallen down just to complete a list. 

(says a man who likes ticklists too much 🤦‍♂️)

So, what’s in and what’s out? With thanks to Tony for compiling the list…

Out - sport routes - 9

Cave Route Right, Cave Route Left, Pierrepoint, Malham Main Overhang, Free n Easy, New Dawn, Dominatrix, The Prow, Revelations. Deja vu (Kilnsey) arguably falls in this category as well. Makes sense to exclude but we need Sport Rock! I’ve lost 1 here.

Out - fallen down - 4 

Thor, Megaton, T Rex (has been reclimbed at a higher grade but not really the same route now with the flake gone), Return of the Natives. Cougar and Controlled Burning arguably also fall in this category, although they’ve been reclimbed at higher grades. Lost 1 here.

Out - other trad routes - 76 (!)

Some controversial omissions here…

Supercharger, Grey Panther, Internationale - I’d have kept at least one of these, not done them but they look great.

King Kong, Caligula - replaced by Banana Groove

Acapulco - replaced by Colder than a Hooker’s Heart

Going for Gold

Unicorn, Scansor 

Kingpin

The Clearances

The Pinch Direct. This means SCNL, Bidean nam Bian and Etive all culled which seems a pity.

Romantic Reality

Haystack, The Spire. Fair I think given Steeple retained but just one route on the Bastion doesn’t do it justice…

The Pin - replaced by Thor. Fair.

Giant, Cougar, Flodden - replaced by Ascent of Man and Improbability Drive

Chemin de Fer

Footless Crow. Fair.

Nazgul, LoTR - replaced by White Wizard and Ringwraith. Fair.

Fine Time, RnS Special, Trilogy. Culling all 3 seems a pity.

Sidewalk - replaced by Tumble. Fair.

Deja vu (Kilnsey). Fair, mostly a sport route.

Kingdom Come, Circe, Bitterfingers, Wee Doris, Our Father. Pity for all the Stoney routes to go given it was such an important crag back in the day but I guess they aren’t actually amazing routes in the scheme of things.

White Wall, Great Arête. Fair, there were too many Millstone routes and these aren’t mega classics.

Bastille - replaced by Supersonic. Fair given how many bolts Bastille has!

Easter Island, Adjudicator Wall. Fair re Easter Island, Adjudicator Wall is meant to be good though.

Fern Hill, Five Finger Exercise, Requiem. Pity to see Cratcliffe culled but it’s only grit after all…

Preter - replaced by Amanita Muscarina. Fair.

Tudor Rose, Oceanid, Warlock, Vikings - replaced by Lean Machine and Roaring Boys. Fair, I always thought the Swanage selection was a bit random.

Heart of the Sun. Fair. One of the harder Culm routes would have been nice to include though.

Behemoth - Mastodon retained and Astral Stroll added so fair overall.

Promised Land, Controlled Burning - replaced by Antiworlds.

Winking Crack, Strand, Dinosaur, Mammoth, Citadel - sad to see the Main Cliff ones go but Alien has been added so all is not lost!

Capital Punishment - replaced by Zero. Eek!

Comes the Dervish - arguably THE slate route but rockfall / access issues now I think?

Lubyanka - sad to see this go but The Skull is retained and is the better route.

West Buttress Direct, Spreadeagle, Great Wall, Womb Bits, Master’s Wall, Indian Face. Fair I think, Spreadeagle was random, GW is in Hard Rock, WB seems like half a route, MW is arguably harder than E7 and IF definitely is! WBD is good but The Axe has been added which is excellent.

Disillusioned Screw Machine

New Dimensions. Pity to drop Castell y Gwynt.

Great Wall (Crag y Forwyn). Sad to see this go.

Vulcan, Fingerlicker, Silly Arête, Zukator. Sad to see these go but there are a few other Tremadog routes retained and it’s only Tremadog after all…

Stargate, Mythical Monster, Quiet Waters, Surprise Attack, Daydreams - fair except I think a Mother Carey’s route should have been added, eg Zeppelin or Just Klingon. As it is, the additions are Darkness at Noon, Ghost Train, Underneath the Arches, Gravy Train and Soup Dragon. I wouldn’t have Gravy Train in there - Swordfish would be my non Mother Carey’s E3 suggestion. UtA looks esoteric but not done it so perhaps it’s amazing. Soup Dragon is an inspired selection, not done it but been down there and it looks great, while the dragon has to be heard to be believed!

Lost 37 here - ouch!

Will list the additions later. There are lots, which is great. Now puerile tickers like me have two ticklists to go at instead of one but it’s ok to skip the routes I don’t want to do in the original 🤣

Edit - Jenny Wren also removed.

N Wales has lost ~16  routes and the SW has gained 2 so there’s been a rebalancing, as a partisan Welsh climber I disagree but as someone keen to explore the SW this is great. 
Obviously no two people will agree on a list so no criticism is implied and the original list was pretty idiosyncratic but it does seem odd to lose Silly Arete which is a unique experience and add Wombat which is a good route but nothing special. Hopefully the next book will have a chapter on the Range West developments when that opened as I recall that being historically significant given the style the routes were put up in. 
I’m unlikely to add anything to my meagre Scottish tally given that the average grade for there in ER2 seems to be E5 now!

In reply to:

There was always going to be a lot of discussion around inclusions and omissions as some routes had to go and others had to replace them.

I suppose this means it got a bit stuck between being a homage to the original and something new and that has limited the choices. As someone who knew but never owned the original I'm fine with that and will definitely be buying a copy but it might limit the appeal to others.

None of that is intended as a criticism, it still looks fantastic and a huge amount of work and love has obviously gone into it.

Go on Misha, make a separate superlist subdivided into Constants, Outs and Ins.

This turned out to be a myth, they may and probably did have some rockfall but both have been climbed in recent years by the Extreme Rock tickeurs extraordinaires, but both harder than their old grades.

Magnificent but missing: Great Arete (Llech Ddu), Isengard/Samba Pa Ti (Dow), Nagasaki Grooves (Greatend), Ahimsa (Cheddar), Peryl and Them (Avon). Actually, when you think about it there’s lots of really great routes out there. Long live trad!

I think the main test will be is ER2 an adequate showcase in terms of the list, photos and writing for the quality, diversity and magic of UK (except for Fairhead!) trad climbing in the extreme grades.

While Ahimsa is a good route it lacks the exposure and adventure of some of the other cheddar routes. I think if you were going to include some my picks would be Kephalonia (E5 6a), Crow (WW) (E3 5c) and Warlord (E4 6a).

Kephalonia in particular is incredible, would be a classic anywhere.

My personal 'great omission' would be either Ultima Thule (E7) or The Nose (E4 6a) on Foula. This would have completed the wild and big Scottish sea cliffs trilogy.

(Alongside Big John (E5) and The Last Queen of Scotland (E5 6a))

That's an amazing break down of what's in and out! I agree with most of what you said. Although ER2 looks great I think the biggest trick missed was not to include fair head. I think cold climbs has a couple of routes from N Ireland so there is some precedent for including N Ireland routes in the series. 

I agree, Fairhead should really have been included as a standout trad crag of the UK/British Isles. I’m not sure if this was for geographic (closer to Great Britain than some of the Scottish island climbs), historical or political reasons?

Which routes should have been included? My shortlist would be Salango, Jolly Roger, Face Value and Bird of Prey. I’ve climbed the first three but not BoP. What do others think?

Yeh definitely jolly roger. I thought track of the cat was better than face value. Did you mean wall of prey, rather than bird of prey? If so, I didn't think it was that great. I haven't done Salango but it looks fantastic. Although I also haven't done it I thought primal scream also looks great. 

Yes,  Wall of Prey. Thanks but too late to edit.  In that case one of the other routes on that wall that were too hard for me?

Again, I haven't done it but above and beyond is on that bit of wall and looks amazing. 

My God, it looks just awesome and, having now only seconded 2 and led 1 of the listed climbs, down from seconding 3 and leading 3, I feel properly humbled at this climbfest of probably unobtainable climbing delights. So I'll buy the book and gawp in wonder at the photos while enjoying reading it.

Nothing on Beinn Eighe? Sumo? Angel Face?

Angel Face is in the newer Hard Rock already.

I think making a lot of changes like this with different routes and new essays will increase the appeal for those lucky enough to own the original. It means it's not just buying the same thing again with one or two tweaks.

Pretty much wipes me out!

And deservedly so!

One thing maybe being overlooked here is that unlike a selective guide where you can include any routes you fancy, you actually need to find someone who wants to write and photograph the routes you want to include.

The retention of some esoteric routes from the original book is less to do with their inherent quality but that  the articles were classic pieces of climbing literature written by the leading pioneers of the time.

Best route ive done in the uk 

Here’s the list of routes added in this edition. Asterisks denote routes at crags not previously included. Whilst a few crags have been dropped, it’s great to see new ones added to get people exploring.

Total - 62

That’s loads, which is great. Gained only 12. Hopefully having the new ticklist will get me out and about to do the ones I can. I know it sounds a bit sad but I find that ticklists definitely help with getting on routes.

Scotland - 18

Diuru *

Banana Groove

Colder than a Hooker’s Heart - a bit surprised all of Creag Dubh hasn’t been dropped

Thor

Ascent of Man, Improbability Drive

Edge of Extinction *

Panting Dog Climb

Kismet

Spirit Air *

Orange Bow, Death Wolf *

Sugar Cane Country, Ship of Fools *

Call of the Sea *   A bit surprised there aren’t more Bishop Isles routes

Mhor Air *

Big John * - for the adventure seekers

Last Queen of Scotland * - the biggest logistical challenge

I didn’t gain any here so it’s all to go for!

Lakes and NE England - 14

Western Union *

Ringwraith, White Wizard

Tumble, Woodhouse’s Arete - I’ve heard Tumble is excellent but didn’t have WA down as a mega classic but I might be just out of the loop

The Vikings, Supernatural, Incantations *

Fear and Fascination, Bucket City *   Dove Crag N Buttress is a great addition

The Tube, On the Rocks *

Northumberland Wall, Endless Flight *   Picking a couple of crags in NE England is a brave move as it’s a bit of a backwater but it will get people to visit the area (I’ll have to make the trip)

Gained only 1 (plus another I’ve still to do clean…)

Yorks and Peak - 6

Wombat, Slender Loris, Doubting Thomas - all the more reason to get round to doing these!

Claws

Supersonic - a great substitute for Bastille with its profusion of bolts

Golden Mile - previously an obvious omission

Gained 2, not bad out of 6

North Wales - 8

Heart of Gold * - great to see Red Wall on the list

Path to Rome, Terrorhawk * - great to see Cilan on the list. A bit surprised nothing included for Doris. 

Alien - but surprised Skinhead Moonstomp wasn’t included as well

Zero - one of the new bold stopper routes

Pull my Daisy, Rainbow of Recalcitrance * - as noted above, Poetry Pink would have been better than PmD but I guess fair to have some soft touches

Cockblock * - nice addition, though King Wad would have been better

Gaines 3, not bad out of 8

Pembroke - 5

Darkness at Noon

Ghost Train

Underneath the Arches *

Gravy Train *

Soup Dragon *

A better selection overall but I’d have droppe in Zeppelin or Just Klingon instead of Gravy Train.

Gained 2, not bad out of 5

South West - 11

​​​​​​​Amanita Muscarina - been on the list for ages, added incentive now

Call to Arms, Caribbean Blue, Southern Comfort * - a crag that’s been on the radar, again added incentive 

Lean Machine, Roaring Boys * - great additions 

Break on Through, Fay, Pacemaker * - Sharpnose was one of the biggest omissions from the original, great to see this rectified

Antiworlds - a must do, judging by the comments above and in the logbooks

Black Magic - a great companion to Darkinbad

Gained 4 out of 11, not bad. Some steep ones left to do!

Sorry, it is indeed in your edition. One of the best single pitch E3s I’ve done. 

What does the * denote?

Crag not included in the original ER. 

Down from 160 to 108 - an even more brutal downgrade...!

Or an 108 route head start on the new book...