UKC

I was recently on a climbing trip to a Greek island (which I'm sure no one has ever heard of so I wouldn't bother asking) where I was accompanied by an equal amount of experienced and inexperienced climbers. 

During one of the days, my friend and I was belaying/encouraging our inexperienced friend up his new project. For the purpose of anonymity, we'll call him Adam Ondra. Mr Ondra has only just started leading sport a couple of months ago, and despite being a beginner has developed into a fairly good and, dare I say, safe climber. We do however still keep an eye on him, and occasionally remind him when he makes a mistake, which beginners and experienced people often do. 

While climbing at the crag that day, our group met a couple  who were warming up on Adam Ondra's project as we were arriving at the crag. They seemed sort of friendly, if not a tad churlish, and I ended up having a somewhat spirited debate with the bloke about the British grading system (He thought it was stupid and didn't make sense, I disagreed (shock!)). After they moved on to another route nearby, Adam Ondra decided to have a heroic burn on the proj. After getting to the very last move, about half a metre from the anchor, Ondra fell (tragedy). In his throes of fear and exhaustion he reached out to grab whatever was in front of him and tried to grab the rope on the opposite side of the quickdraw, thus feeling the rope run through his hand, giving him some (very) minor rope burn. 

Before we could tell him, our new friend swiftly and quite condescendingly remarked on what Adam had done and how he should never ever grab this part of the rope. This fella then continued to be fairly mean to Mr Ondra, reminding him of his transgression, and even (very funnily) joked about pushing Adam off the catwalk we were on as he was standing too close behind him while belaying. After climbing another route we decided to move to a different crag, and I wished the man a good day, which I said (and meant) in a very un-sarcastic way. 

Now, this may come as a surprise, but I do agree with this bloke, what Adam did was wrong. I am aware of the many misfortunes that can befall a leader falling and grabbing things they shouldn't (rope burn, de-gloving, death). Since discussing the events as a group, Adam knew what he did was wrong, even while he was doing them, and has admitted that his instincts had got the better of him. However I think the whole ordeal may have left some inner scars on my friend, as he seemed disheartened by the event, stripped the proj, and left the crag with no send (very sad). 

So now you've read my boring complaints about rude(ish) climbers, I bet you're thinking why have I written this short novella complaining about a slightly annoying encounter that probably happens every day? Well, the whole encounter sparked my interest in the aspect of safety at the crag and at what point do you intervene. Obviously, if you see someone with their grigri loaded the wrong way, belaying their scared looking mate cruxing out, you should probably say something shouldn't you. But where do you draw the line? 

Personally, if I saw someone who was doing something that was going to injure/unalive themselves/someone else, I would speak up. But, If I saw someone behaving in a sillybilly way (i.e not flaking a rope properly, having a long tail on a knot, etcetera ecetera) I would probably do the good old fashioned British and just leave them to it.

Was our new friend speaking out of turn? Well the answer is probably not, but he could have been less of a dick to be honest.

 I'll summarise my questions and hopefully you might be able to share some of the experiences you've had:

• At what point would you intervene if you saw some "Silly Billy" behaviour?
• If you have intervened/been intervened by someone, what did you say? how did they react? Do you think there was a better way you/they could have gone about it?
• Should I expand my ethics, and call out every transgression I see, no matter how small?
• Should I have stolen the mans sandwich? Or cut is rope? Or should I actually be worshiping him as the man who saved Adam Ondra?

Let me know your opinions/views but remember, if I see any form of criticism at all I will be writing a separate UKC post on how nasty everyone really is on here. 

My threshold for saying something is whether I think there's a significant chance of significant injury in the near future if they carry on as they are. In the case of your friend, who'd already experienced the natural consequence of grabbing the rope while falling, there's clearly no reason to mouth off to him because the lesson has presumably already been learned. The person dispensing wisdom probably thought they were indulging in a bit of "banter". But in my experience (admittedly largely from observing teenage boys in my previous life as a teacher, which I really hope doesn't extend to the general population too much), "banter" has a habit of meaning "treating you like crap but if you get offended you clearly lack a sense of humour because it's just banter".

People are more likely to take criticism well if it comes from a friend than some random person.

If I'm going to address an issue with someone directly the conversation would go something along the lines of "That looked a bit sketch, have you got stuff to get yourself sorted out? Do you understand how you were injured?" If they do then I'll leave it there, if not and they seem receptive to advice I'll point out the error, ask how they might avoid it in future and possibly offer my own ideas.

The guy sounds like a knob and I'd likely have made that very clear to him. If he was pushing me after an error I'd thank him for his concern after the initial advice before telling him to get stuffed if he tried to take the piss after that point, safety is important and bullying people about cock ups just means they hide them rather than being open about it.

If the person making the mistake isn't in the group I'm with, then only if I think there's a threat of imminent death or serious injury.

The only two cases I can think of in recent years:

1. top roping on a single back-clipped quickdraw that their partner had bailed on mid route, and appeared to be about to try to lead past it
2. top roping on the free end of the rope at the wall - could have taken several people out if they'd come off and/or then smacked backwards into the opposite wall.

I've climbed for over 30 years but have been known in recent years to still stupidly grab something I shouldn't in the momentary panic of falling.

I would imagine the rope burn has taught Mr Ondra a salutary lesson not to do that (although if I'm anything to go by he still might still do it)! If Adam wasn't clever enough on his own to work out why his hand was now hurting, I'm sure you could have explained it to him.

The other climbers were behaving like knobs. If I saw something like that I hope I would start by asking Adam if he was OK, and offering some water for him to wash it or similar. I might offer some comment like "I bet you'll remember next time not to do that!" with a smile, or more likely "I've done that before, bloody hurts doesn't it!" in sympathy. Beyond that, you are getting into knobber territory.

I have intervened in the past when I've seen people do things like start climbing without doing up a knot and so on, but even in those cases it's pretty easy to do it in a non threatening way. I've seen a nasty accident with someone unconscious after a fall, and seen an utterly terrifying near miss (climber seemingly free falling about 25 mtrs down a cliff but the rope they were on jamming and them bouncing when literally cms off the ground). It's horrible and upsetting. Always better to say something kindly rather than witness an accident.

TLDR.

Vividly remember pointing out to someone leading a route near me at a popular spot in Pembroke that they had buggered up their rope work so badly it would cause them real issues on this route at their limit, let alone an easier one. One of their party then proceeded to take the opportunity to essentially strongly tell me to fk off, he was in charge and that everything was fine. Then the inevitable big fall happened but nothing was hurt other than ego I guess. Unless someone is doing something blatantly dangerous now I dont get involved. But after recently watching a group of (I perceived) novices with plenty of confidence and enthusiasm fairly ignorantly do a lot of borderline things that could of gone badly I went home wondering if I should of said something. Particularly if it had of gone wrong, how would I have felt? Unfortunately, it just takes one bellend to change peoples attitudes. I think I will speak up in the future and I think we all should, dont be put off by fragile egos that cant handle it

You should have eaten his sarnies

If I think theres a chance that someone could hurt themselves and theres a fix then I'll say something. 

On a recent weekend there was a young group taking on Icarus (HVS 5a) and they seemed not so experienced; a (potentially quite green but maybe not so aware of it) leader and 2 seconds. I noticed when the first second was setting off that the leader hadn't protected the second second for the initial (not trivial) part at all, and that a fall would result in them having a nasty swing and ploughing back into the rock platform. I suggested the first second clip their mates rope into the top piece of the flake and leave that gear, which they did. 

Did either of them fall? No. Did they think it was a right faff to sort it out and  that I was a tosser but were too polite to ignore my suggestion? Likely. Would I have felt bad if the second second had done himself a mischief when I'd not spoken up? Most definitely. 

In your case though, the mistake had already happened and the lesson learned and burned. Why go on about it? It's not like they're going to think that getting rope burns was ace and they're going to do it again at the next opportunity. 

At the wall I'll always mention back clipping if I see it. If I get a blank look then a quick demo of the rope unclipping does the trick.

I don't like the sound of people hitting the deck.

I do feel we have a responsibility to look after each other as fellow human beings. That doesn't mean berating people that's just dickish.

I've had random people point out errors so I can fix them, rope running into somewhere it might snag that kind of stuff and I've appreciated the help. If they then to lecture, well then they can do one but thats never happened to me.

In the OP 'the guy' sounds like a pratt just showing off, pretty sure 'Mr Ondra' had worked out his mistake for himself.

This calls for an intervention.  Should have said something, had have gone wrong - "of" is not a verb!

That's the nub of it.  There's a world of difference between "Can I give you a bit of advice about your belay?" and "Oi!  You're doing that wrong dummy!"

Wouldn't with a stranger. Might with an inexperienced mate who hadn't made a reasoned choice and could learn something useful. Would also accept I could be wrong or just have a different opinion.

Don't recall specifics but it's rarely taken well in the heat of the moment by either party, we're proud and deep think slowly when challenged.

Probably not.

Probably not.

Overall I'd suggest accepting that while some are just dicks most people want to help and that many of us have slightly mis-calibrated social filters (a trait perhaps overrepresented among climbers?). Try to nod, smile and think about what was said after it stops smarting, hope others do the same when you speak up.

jk

Not entirely sure this passes the "imminent risk of harm" threshold that many people have already suggested as a standard for intervention! But if we're being pedantic, your suggestion also sounds quite clumsy in the second part. "If it had gone wrong" would surely suffice.

How can you say that with the English language being murdered right in front of your eyes!? 

The line? Risk of death or serious injury to self or others 

You lost be at 'proj'.

More seriously - as I get older, I find calling people out as coonts gets easier and easier. If more people robustly called out this type of thing you might have a few more fights, but overall society would be a better place.

The guy is probably an only child.

Also - a bit of rope burn is a part of a climber's rite of passage isn't it? I remember a certain incident on Flying Buttress Direct (Stanage) where I manage to get caught up in double ropes and simultaneously burnt both legs and the side of my face.

A risk of serious injury seems like a fair bar. I'm not sure I'd want to walk past that.

I don't know how much it helps, but when I do point out that sort of stuff (in any context, really) I always try to phrase it as a bit of a question - "is there a reason that you're doing it that way" or ""is that going to be safe if this happens" rather than "you shouldn't do it that way" or "that isn't safe". Basically I try to phrase it so I wouldn't feel like too much of a tit if they turned around and said "well I did it this way on the first ascent of Dawn Wall and it seemed fine there", even if it's pretty obvious that they're actually newbies and they haven't got a clue.

I intervene if there is a very serious problem. We had a situation where me and my climbing partner were tangentially climbing around a climbing club we are not directly involved in (my climbing partner was dating someone from the club). They were at the crag shortly before us and had set up top ropes. I lead a route, and when I topped out, I found the most horrific mess of an anchor I have ever seen. Extremely poor gear next to bomber placements, a loose rock I could easily lift having been slung, and worse of all, all four-five pieces in the anchor were horizontally in line across several metres and had a top rope on them each. If one went, and literally any of them could have gone any moment, it would have unzipped several top ropes in a row and dropped multiple people climbing, whoever had done it clearly didn’t have a clue what they were doing. There were novices on the top ropes at the time. We had someone tell people on the ground to stay on the ground and I quickly had my climbing partner run up, we backed everything up with our gear, slinging a big boulders behind the whole mess and independently attaching those to the ropes without touching the existing system. Once everything was secure we had everyone lower off and called over the person that did that. They basically said “oh, I just couldn’t see any good placements, those will do”. I didn’t even know where to start with that attitude. We helped them set up solid equalised independent anchors.

I have had people I relayed that story to tell me off for interfering with someone else’s anchor, but I did not think I had any choice but to intervene.

That person no longer climbs with that club, and I was told that for a while after they started using instructors on trips that were low on competent leaders.

What would people have done in this case, I still get the chills thinking what could have happened, and how I could have potentially be blamed if that imbecile had claimed their anchor was solid before I got near it.

"The line" as you call is about what someone is doing; it moves depending on how you engage.

You can be a dick about something life-saving and a generous friend about something trivial just as easily as the converse

The response can also be quite variable though. Some people will graciously accept advice, even if it's rudely given or inappropriate. Others have fragile egos and will get offended by the implication that they're in any way imperfect no matter how cautiously the advice-giver treads. That's why I don't bother getting involved on unimportant stuff, it's not worth the potential upset to all involved unless it's over something serious.

My first reaction here would be that it depends how experienced the silly climbers look. Because in all honesty, I'm pretty sure if I was watching the real Mr Ondra skipping 3 draws and then clipping the next overhead off a sketchy non-kneebar, I'd feel motivated to say something about ground falls, but obviously I wouldn't because, y'know, it's Adam Frickin Ondra. Whereas, if people are relatively new to the sport, I'd be much more likely to point something out because they will be less aware of all the risks and more prone to make genuine mistakes rather than doing something non-ideal because they consciously decided to (another eg with AO would be falling off a horizontal roof and grabbing the next draw as you go and doing a one-armer off it to get it clipped - nobody is going to argue that this was a good or safe idea!). Next consideration is whether there is any rapport between me and the silly climber - if we've just been chatting about beta or route quality or the state of Afghan women's rights, I'd say something about a silly action at a lower threshold than if I hadn't spoken to them at all. If the silly climber is a beginner or inexperienced climber I've not spoken to yet, I'd probably only interject if it looked like a dangerous mistake. For obviously dangerous oversights like failing to complete the knot before starting, I would say immediately to anyone.

There are some issues where I think you just accept that other people are dangerous and that is their choice, for example, being at a crag that regularly drops bits of rock and deciding not to wear a helmet (I'm not going to say that I'm personally the gold standard to follow on this either). Or having a baby or infant at said same crag - I don't think I would ever put my baby under a wall people were climbing on but it's probably not my place to say that to someone else and it isn't likely to result in anything other than acrimony anyway.

Loads of times I'm sure. All sorts of different reactions. The ideal intervention is probably formed as a question or observation rather than an admonishment or order, e.g. "ouch, did you get rope burn?" rather than "never grab that rope!"

Only if you want everyone to hate you

You should be forgetting the incident and enjoying climbing, don't let it live rent-free in your head

You are the worst human being in the world, you make Hitler look like Mother Theresa, it should be the duty of every man, woman and child to kill you before your toxic ideas can spread, etc. etc.

btw, never mention de-gloving again! it's like nails on a blackboard at the same time as metal scrapping across china!

Similar to others, I'll intervene if there is a potential for injury. It's a funny one though isn't it because I wouldn't say to an experienced climber "ay up mate, it might hurt if you fall off that E10" but I suppose I would if it was a novice. I guess its more about a potential issue that hasn't been spotted and that can be rectified. If something is a bit messy/unconventional but still ultimately safe I'd probably leave them to it unless we got chatting and it became clear I could give friendly welcome advice.

I intervened a couple of years ago when I saw a couple of very gung ho novice lads who were about to bottom rope on very insecure anchors which were way off to the side, not equalised and with their rope cutting deeply into the turf on the edge as they hadn't extended the masterpoint over it. Thankfully they were glad of the advice and we lent them some kit and got to talk it through with them and we created a safe anchor together. I quietly advised two other experienced climbers nearby at the crag that it might be worth keeping an eye out for them too. It was lucky timing really as an accident would have been almost certain. 

I've had to intervene far more with people I was partnered with to be honest. Strangers will often take advice better than friends it seems sometimes...

Last time I intervened I was watching someone (from above, on a stance) Climbing a trad route below me.  They were very much a sport climber - moving well and strongly, but gear placement was far less accomplished.  The belayer was standing quite a way back, with a big loop of slack.  I looked and gauged, and got uncomfortable, and decided to speak up.  I said that with that amount of slack out they were going to come really close to hitting the ground.  They said they didn't like slamming (sport climber, as I thought) and changed nothing.  But I'd spoken up - conscience clear.  I decided not to watch any more.

No, just crucial issues - anything likely to result in serious injury, or if the climber has made poor fashion choices such as climbing a trad route wearing a bouldering beanie. 

As a relative novice trad leader, I appreciated a word of advice about belay set-ups from both climbing partners and random people at the crag - sometimes unsolicited - when I was starting out, and recently have not been shy about soliciting it for more complex / potentially dangerous situations (like setting up a fixed abseil on a sea cliff). I wouldn't ask anyone who was belaying or busy with their own ropes, of course.

Mocking errors or taking an opportunity to lord it over someone less experienced is arsish behaviour. Don't think I've ever seen it at a crag.

Unsolicited advice to speed up the sorting of a ropework problem when you're on lead is very problematic. If I'm stepping down to a stance, and pausing working out how to uncross ropes, extend, swap them between gear to avoid drag, a belayer at the bottom going "come on you just need to step over that one and reclip the yellow one into where the blue one is", is just a noise which stops me from working through a problem I'm bound to meet again for myself (the skillset I need to develop). I know it's well-intentioned, and the belayer was experienced and correct but ... If tempted, just ask "do you want some advice?" first. It it's another pair, quietly alerting the belayer to something would probably be better than talking directly to the leader.

You should hear me talk

Not a dangerous situation but funny nevertheless.

At the crag last Thursday a woman was pulling the rope after their group had finished on a route. She started to pull the rope but whoever was last to climb had left half of their fig 8 in the end of the rope. As it slowly left the ground I shouted for to her to stop. She looked at me as though I'd just landed from Mars and carried on pulling the rope. I pointed at the knot which was now flying upwards toward the belay chains and just smiled :-0
As I walked away I could hear her other half cursing that he'd have to do the route again.

E

Perhaps a little selfish but I tend to only intervene when I think they are putting me (and potentially others) at risk, eg. someone trying to solo past on a winter or multipitch climb; no thank you! 

If one wants to put oneself in danger then whatever, but I draw the line when one's actions could have major consequences for others

I never intervene, unless offering my boulder pad to someone if they haven't got one. I don't pay much attention to what other people are doing. 

poor Adam! This guy was a dick. No need to say anything really and certainly not straight after he touched down. There’s nothing here that suggests the intervener was doing it for Adam’s benefit. I have had avalanches of mansplaining come my way over the years (not particularly about safety, but advice delivered usually in a manner one might use with a toddler potty training) and although I am very experienced, we are all fallible. So I try to reflect on whether there is any merit in what they are saying. And can I learn something. I am unlikely to be receptive when pumped full of adrenaline. I have stepped in on occasion when people looked like they were going to seriously hurt themselves. On one occasion at the wall, the climber had not completed their figure of 8 in and the belayer kept letting go of the dead rope. I mentioned it to them and also mentioned it to the wall staff - as I think they have a part to play as well in ensuring people climb safely. I was polite. The climber was extremely offended and seemed pissed off. Oh well, as someone else has said, once you’ve seen a couple of people fall and break themselves, you care less about the confrontation. There’s a reason we go to ‘the island’ at quiet times!!

I'm the opposite. I tend to be very aware of neighbouring parties at crags and how they do things. If I get "beginnerish vibes" I'll keep more of a careful eye on them - hopefully, this is subtle enough for them not to notice, and I'm hoping not to have to say anything, but I'm definitely on the alert.

"I begin to speak only when I'm certain what I'll say isn't better left unsaid." Cato.

The Stoics have an answer for everything. :⁠-⁠D

That made me smile. 

I've come across quite a few climbers who seemingly can't resist lecturing strangers based on their obviously flawed understanding. When someone tells me I should have locking caribiners on all my belay pro and more pieces than the two equalised bomber pieces I've placed I just roll my eyes and thank them for trying to be helpful. On rare occasions advice has been helpful to me and I was greatful (like when a gate on a key locking crab had come undone from rubbing).

For the other direction, I always try to politely intervene if something looks seriously  wrong or very damaging to the rock or ecology: most are greatful but I'd rather be told to f off than see an avoidable accident or serious damage. In safty terms, most commonly this has been for uncompleted knots, which is why I'm so keen on encouraging buddy checks.

How do you draw the line partway up a multipitch if a soloer catches you up?

Letting them pass at the belay seems the safest option for everyone. I've never heard of an injury caused as a result of someone soloing past them. Of course I stand to be corrected on that

Neither have I, although people have reported being traumatised after seeing someone fall to their death. It can certainly be very off-putting to have someone solo past, especially if you are struggling, and it can be an additional worry even if the chances of something going wrong are slim.

It should be the passing climber's responsibility to ensure that they pass the slower party in a safe manner, which might mean at a belay or at least a resting place. The fact that they are unroped shouldn't make a difference - that is their choice, and presumably they believed the route was within their capabilities, and should have allowed for other climbers being on the route.   The exception would be if the soloist were clearly in difficulties, in which case the roped climber should do everything possible to let them pass safely or even assist them.

I've seen a few minor injuries in winter from an overtaking soloist and some more serious near misses. Ice chunks detached by the solo climber coming down a route can be a very real risk.

Or stonefall in the Alps/elsewhere. It's certainly not unlikely that parties could be hit by a rock dislodged by someone who'd soloed past them.

The reverse is more serious for the solo winter climber, when others are hacking at the ice. I was hit by a football sized block once, but managed to hold on. Worrying though in retrospect.

I don't know why people make such a big deal about being below solo climbers as compared to roped teams. Soloists tend to be competent and experienced climbers who are not going to fall off beyond all reasonable doubt (obviously). And there's only one of them. And roped parties have a rope between them which may dislodge stuff however careful they are.

These scenarios apply to anyone climbing above you, rather than being specific to solo climbers. 

All things being equal a soloer is less likely to want detached objects, including themselves, falling on people below.

They'll always be exceptions but I'm more wary of the competence and attention of roped parties above me than soloers.

Anyway, I'm still unsure how someone could draw a line and forbid a soloer to pass them without creating a more dangerous situation.

My stance varies based on the exact situation. If they really seem competent and I reckon it's probably safe then I'll let them pass at a belay.

But really I want them to wait. I got to the route first, and there are always plenty of other routes. This sort of applies to anyone, not just soloists. I have likely chosen the route specifically because there is no-one above me!

And I've had a couple of close calls, and my mate had some absolute twerp who had solo'd past him on a grade II gully drop a block on him, hit him in the ribs and cracked one and bruised him pretty badly. Luckily he was clipped into the belay at the time. 

I guess a roped party could do that too, but they have one less thing to drop on me - their own body!

Where are you meeting these competent soloists!

The soloists I've come across are always soloing in pairs (which feels like it's not soloing anymore) and sketching around like you wouldn't believe!

A personal favourite was watching a couple go past on a simple grade I route, both soloing. One of them had a rope (!?) coiled over their rucksack but it was too long so it kept catching on the back of their crampons. Saw them almost trip to their death at least twice.

Actually competent and keen soloists will actively seek to be alone I feel, and avoid routes with another party on it

I draw the line at where I think it's going to be dangerous as rescuing or assisting the injured is rarely a pleasure .  Where's my limit? Well if they're back clipped i don't care too much, if the rope is backwards thro' a grigri , or some other groundfall scenario, I do care, and quite a bit.  And yes I'm not too bothered telling people either, but you can keep it polite and helpful

Yes, they were probably not true soloists. 

poor use of English during critical comms - Cressida Dick, victim was executed on the tube

Lots of awful aviation incidents based on poor communication

They were soloing so are soloists.

I guess you could ask true soloists like Jimmy Jewel , John Bachar or Uli Steck ?

If you do enough soloing then, statistically, you will eventually come unstuck. However, on any given climb the risk might be small enough for a party below to consider it negligible.

No, if they were were not alone then they were not,  pretty much by definition, soloing. Anyway that discussion has been done on here at enormous length before!

I think the point is that they were probably non-soloists who just hadn't roped up for this bit of their day.

For me, the line isn't per se in terms of how serious or not it is, but about trying to come across as reasonable, supportive and friendly - rather than just intrusive. If it's very serious and I shout "stop! wait!" and then explain why they are about to die, hopefully that will come across as reasonable and caring, despite its abruptness! If I see something very minor but it seems appropriate and useful, then I might ask: "is it ok if I give you a bit of advice?" and they say "sure" and we can proceed politely... It seems to me that's also friendly and supportive, despite being minor. I probably won't intervene, though, if I think I'll just come across as interfering... e.g. movement beta or nitpicking... or just general slack belaying at a wall...

It's a bit different on the internet, where inability to non-verbally communicate your benign concern can cause people to take the hump at perfectly reasonable and caring advice, it seems... no idea yet how to solve that, as helpful posts often get disliked...

"had have gone wrong"... were you high when you wrote this? Oops... I mean, were have you high?

That is true, though all things being equal, a soloist is more likely to catch you up in the first place (given that they're not having to place gear and take belays), so I can see why the subject was brought up. 

I've soloed a fair bit in my time (still do), but not so much on multipitch. However, on multi-pitch I see (and follow) the "passing rules" as only pass if the party ahead of you are happy for you to go ahead, and only pass at points where the party ahead of you are happy for you to pass. If you can't just hang around and wait if necessary, then you shouldn't be soloing that route.

On single pitch routes I see the "rules" as only jump on a route that others are preparing to lead (e.g. kitting up) if they're happy for you to go ahead of them (they may not want to see your beta or you making their "hard" route look like a piece of p*ss), and don't hang around below in any manner that might pressure them to hurry up (and hence possibly fail because of that). Usually, I'll just go and do something else. If I do hang around I make sure that my demeanour makes it fairly obvious that I'm not in a hurry.

And on all routes don't solo right behind the second's arse. Apart from spoiling the second's experience it's just stupid, second slips and knocks you off - no more soloing.

Not sure what soloists should do on a route like the Inn Pin, which is busy with roped parties.

Last time I did it, I led up it on a rope and set up my belay at the usual ledge in the middle. I'm not wild about that kind of exposure, so I tied myself onto that thing six ways from Sunday. As I started to take in my rope, this guy popped up, unroped. Uh, hello? He told me that my second said it was okay if he went ahead. Okay, soloing between a roped party isn't what I would have recommended, but my second was pretty inexperienced, so it is what it is.

The chap asked if he could go around me. Well, be my guest. Then he pointed out that I was in his way, and it would be nice if I wasn't. I pointed out my three-point equalized anchor. Do I look like I can move? At this point, second had taken me off belay so no way was I unclipping from anything. He complained that he will have to do a sketchy move to bypass me, and it's not fair because I'm the one with the rope. I said, "Well, you did decide to solo up around a roped party on a narrow fin of rock." He reiterated that my second said it was fine. I said, "He's not that experienced, and he's never climbed this before."

Mr. Free Solo grudgingly bypassed the belay ledge on some sketchier ground and did not fall off.

Get there before them!

You were right, he was wrong - simples

Unrelated question, but curious - why pipes? Do you play them?

From the one dislike, it seems he frequents these forums tha LOLz. You were obviously in the right and it sounds also quite patient!

Yeah, I play the Irish pipes. Uilleann pipes, if you know what they are.

I was very patient. I was firmly tied to some rocks; it was a beautiful, sunny day in a rather excellent location to be tied to some rocks on a very exposed knife edge; I didn't have anywhere better to be. The fact that I was in his way was entirely this guy's problem. I was happy, zen-like, and also not moving while calmly pointing out that this was a problem of his own making.

After passing all the gear I had placed -- the better part of a rack -- it should have been pretty obvious to any climber with most of a brain that whoever was on the belay ledge would have more or less glued themselves to the rocks.

It takes a bit of luck and/or good timing. Sounds like he timed it quite well (you were at the belay, not leading), but yes, obviously you couldn't be expected to move if you were tied in to the anchor.

After a few (obscene) responses when I have intervened (only in situations where there was a very good chance of serious injury and I don't mean a sprained ankle) I have now found it preferable to move well away, even to another crag, and let Darwinism take it's course.

A very telling tale. What kind of muppet chooses to solo that over other climber's ropes unless they are 100% sure they can cope and won't get in the way. It reminds me of the wonderful old cartoon of the Dalek conquest of the universe being thwarted by some steps.

In contrast the large majority of the similar cases where I've intervened over the decades led to sincere thanks. The majority of exceptions nearly all being poor leadership in group activity. I'd struggle ethically if I knew I'd left a situation that led to a bad accident or serious damage.

On the opposite side of the coin my 'fave dumb intervention' was on a trad climb in Joshua Tree: I was repeatedly shouted at by a group for climbing a route 10m left of a tr line as they said the belly was taken,  even though I said several times I wouldn't be using their bolt belay (my climb finished at obvious cracks and I had protection for them).

I wonder how much iffy behaviour happens at the In Pinn, given that it's a bit of a circus. The one time I was on it (years ago) there were four of us on a rope, me second (nervous but determined) behind a Skye MRT friend who was leading. Just before the belay ledge mentioned by Emily, at the awkward bit, I got dithering-stuck for a couple of minutes before managing it OK. While this was happening, a guide with two roped clients caught us up. I wasn't party to the conversation but basically he started tailgating Chris at the back of our group, and saying sarcastic stuff like "Just you take your time lads". Chris - who lives on Skye and had been up the Pinn before - said afterwards he was tempted to give the guide a gentle backheel to the snout, given how close behind he was and how full of himself he was. I think we let him through at the halfway belay - can't quite remember - but what I do remember clearly is that he whistled his clients onward like they were dogs. Oddly at the top he didn't actually bother taking them to the summit - they all went through on a ledge a few metres below on the Coruisk side.

(We also had a perfectly pleasant soloist follow us up, behind the pushy guide - he had a rope but after chatting at the top he used ours for abbing off, all very pleasant and sensible.)

I must admit, most of the bad responses have been from either 'group leaders' or more recently, on sport routes where actions at the anchors has presented problems. Last case was at Horsethief, where a climber on the next route was standing on a small ledge just below the anchors, untied the rope to thread the bolts. He was not secured and not very stable. He had been 'climbing for two years and lead 6b indoors so knew what he was doing!' Not in those words!

Mostly in the past responses to advice were good, which is how many of us learned, but responses seem to be getting worse. We finished our route and moved crags. I can organise my own epics!

What is needed for the Innaccessible Pinnacle is a culture where people are quite rightly ridiculed if they claim to have completed the Munros without either having led it onsight or soloed it. That would thin out the crowds of top-roping punters and the whole guiding industry built up around it. Either that or just blow it up.

Must be a regular spot for pushy group leaders. We had a similar experience there. We were also told that the guy also owned all the fixed gear there. I half expected to be asked for payment to use the anchor.....

That'd be me struck off, then (although I don't mind being ridiculed). At least I didn't hire a guide - just did the old thing of asking a more competent friend to get me up it (actually, he offered and I had to be persuaded), then giving him a bottle of malt.

The whole commercialisation of the Cuillin thing is a bit disheartening to see - although I rather admire the guides for having spotted a niche market and made a living off it. It's now routinely the case across at Walkhighlands to see ordinary Munro-keen walkers (of my type) hiring a guide without question when it comes to Skye, and not just for the Pinn - they tend to buy into the week-long package deal which sees them paying to be guided up Bruach na Frithe and Banachdich.

I had a second such experience on the ridge - not unpleasant like the first one, but equally telling as to the general mentality. The Pinn had been my penultimate Skye Munro, and the following spring I went back - with the same MRT friend and his rope - for the last one, Sgurr Mhic Choinnich. We went at it on a day that was forecast to start wet then clear. It did this, but the improvement came slower than expected, and we had it wet along to the summit (by the usual scrambly ridge route - we didn't use Collie's or whatever Ledge), then it dried up as we started back. It very quickly cleared beautifully, with spectacular sun/cloud-shredding views across the corrie. When we got down off the last steep bit and on to the easy section of ridge before the plunge down the An Stac screes, my pal Kevin said he fancied a fag stop so we sat on the ridge for a while taking it all in. While we were doing this a guided party appeared. It was a male guide with three clients, all roped even though they were on easy ground. They were moving at a rate of knots and as they rattled past us the woman at the back looked at Kevin smoking his roll-up and said "I'd rather be doing what you're doing than what we're doing."

Yeah, that might be me next time I go up there and feel like dealing with Sgurr Mhic Coinnich and Sgurr Alasdair. I completely lost my psych and nerve for scary rock climbs/scrambles since the days when I was (nervously) leading the In Pinn and routes like Pinnacle Ridge. I was never a brave climber, but seeing the aftermath of a fatal accident on the Aonach Eagach while trying to scramble around those pinnacles and then a friend having a bad fall at Auchenstarry a few years later kind of did it for me.

If I ever complete the munros (I've climbed about 260 of the things ), I will need to get up those few remaining Cuillin somehow and may chicken out and use a guide. I feel like that's a total cop-out too.

Or keep at it with my many repeat ascents of Bruach na Frithe. If I do it enough times by enough different routes, will it count as more than one Skye munro?

At the Cornice once I looked across at a belayer about 6m away, I was convinced I could see daylight through one of the eyes of his grigri. I strolled behind him and sure enough only one eye was through the biner. I clipped the dead rope into my grigri and only then alerted him to his faux pas.

He seemed mildly grateful, whether he ever fessed up to the leader I will never know.

There's no excuse for bad behaviour on the Inn Pinn or anywhere else in the Cuillin for that matter.  If people are not able to wait their turn politely they should not be there.  I've soloed the IP a few times and when there have been roped parties I've always waited in turn unless actually invited to pass.  As far as I'm concerned people on a route ahead have full possession of it with the right of quiet enjoyment, as long as they are actually climbing, however slowly.

You're almost there - chip away at it when mood/conditions seem right - three more years maybe? Sounds like you're well competent enough to get round the needed ones.

Ha. Various of the guides will have racked up massive numbers on the Cuillin Munros - eg I can recall a discussion on Walkhighlands where someone had hired Jonah Jones and asked him how many In Pinn ascents and it was something like 880.

Re the modern version of the Cuillin generally, the whole guiding thing has an element of time is money about it - hence the rush with some of the guides. I also know of someone who was given a bit of a hard time from a guide for being slower than the rest of the group, and who went home midweek, disillusioned, because of this. Generally such incidents and episodes will be rare, but there is certainly a bit of it about.

PS - To return to the main point of the thread, I mostly worry about intervening when it's to do with poor navigation skills. Generally people will ask if they're getting confused/worried and they suddenly bump into someone who looks like they have local knowledge (women more than men are likely to ask). That's good, but I can think of a couple of times on the Ochils when I've had quite a lengthy session with someone showing them stuff on the map and describing path/fence junctions etc but have then, later, felt I should just have offered to abandon my own plans and stay with them until they were safely down. But they might not have wanted that, and might have taken offence, so what can you do?

"You're almost there - chip away at it when mood/conditions seem right - three more years maybe? Sounds like you're well competent enough to get round the needed ones."

I've left some awkward Cuillins and some faraway ones, like Alder and friends, Knoydart, half the Fisherfields. The kind of thing requiring a lot of psych, planning, and decent weather.

I lost psych after the on-and-off lockdowns and travel bans, then my old, mostly-retired horse died. I could plan a lot of trips around her, but after she was PTS, the horse situation got complicated because I ended up with two young/green horses, who (a) take a lot more time and work and (b) fill the high-risk-sport-danger-quota so I'm not especially keen to hang precariously off the side of the Cuillin.

Back on topic... I have intervened with people's poor nav choices many times. Usually when asked but sometimes, "Do you know this goes off a cliff?" when wandering around some mountain in clag/whiteout conditions.

That all sounds doable in bits and bobs over time. Looking back, the thing I feel about this kind of stuff is make sure to do it while you're relatively young, and still have lots of energy and enthusiasm - it's then mainly just a matter of heading there and getting on with it. I was in my mid-40s when I tidied up the latter stages of a Munro round (the whole thing took 25 years) and the Fisherfield etc remote trips felt feasible and good fun. I'd still have felt that way into my early 50s I think, but (like quite a few people I know) there seemed to be a step change about 53-54 at which stage the project would have become a lot more daunting. A fair few more years on from that I'm still out a lot but almost always now fairly local and daytrippish. Everyone's different, but the waning of oomph from one's mid-50s does seem to be a recurrent theme. So tackle the awkward scrambly/remote stuff while the iron is still reasonably hot!

PS - I've very occasionally encountered people on horses high on the Ochils, always interesting to see.