UKC

Smidge v. DEET?

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 Andy Hardy 10 Jun 2016
Which is more effective, 55% DEET or Smidge?

Just asking as we were midged off the crag last night, and my DEET has nearly run out.

And, mods, it's in rock talk as getting midged only matters when you're trying to climb.
 CurlyStevo 10 Jun 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:
I think very strong deet is more effective than smidge, I put some smidge on the other day in quite bad midgies in glencoe and they didn't much care. Deet seems to stop them even landing on you. Perhaps I didn't put enough smidge in my hair / on though.

In the past I've found smidge pretty good though (but not quite as good as deet but not as nasty either)
Post edited at 15:02
 IPPurewater 10 Jun 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

DEET damages man made fibres. Keep it away from ropes, harnesses etc !
3
 CurlyStevo 10 Jun 2016
In reply to IPPurewater:
Deet doesn't damage climbing gear in general or all man made fibres.

see this old thread for more info

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=56309
Post edited at 15:05
 dsh 10 Jun 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Well I don't know anything about smidge but deet will damage your soft climbing gear. Anecdote, my wife used to live in Costa Rica, and occasionally used 100% deet while doing fieldwork. She got it on her Biro and it started to melt before her eyes. You really want that near your climbing gear and technical clothing(and skin)?
5
around 10 Jun 2016
In reply to dsh:

Good thing my skin isn't made of plastic then.
 Pids 10 Jun 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Does Skin so Soft not work any more?

Am I right in thinking they changed the formula so its not as effective?
 cathsullivan 10 Jun 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

I've found smidge works well for moderate amounts of midgies but it's not as good as the strong chemical stuff.
 CurlyStevo 10 Jun 2016
In reply to dsh:

climbing gear is not made of biros or the same plastic as biros.

Deet does not damage climbing gear!

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=56309

from sterling ropes
"Summary of Nylon, PET and Spectra Chemical Resistance to DEET
Nylon 1R88, Polyester 1W70, and S-900 Spectra were submitted for chemical resistance testing for DEET (N,N diethyl-m-toluamide). The three samples were immersed separately in “CUTTER” and “OFF” brand insect repellent for a period of twenty-four hours at room temperature. “OFF” contains 95% DEET while “CUTTER” contains only 7% DEET and probably some oil based solvents as well. The results of the testing indicate no loss of strength as measured by tensile strength retention in any of the three samples.

There was one interesting anomaly that occurred only in the case of Nylon and the "CUTTER” brand insect repellent. As mentioned before there was no loss of strength for any of the samples but here there was a 25% increase in the elongation and a decrease in modulus. This basically means that a rope made entirely or mostly out of Nylon may become “rubbery” with a significant amount of exposure to “CUTTER” or other insect repellents with large amounts of oil based solvents.

However, with regard to the chemical in question, DEET, there appears to be no effect on any of the physical properties of the three samples. Hence as “CUTTER” contains only 7% DEET the change in the Nylon elongation and modulus must come from the other solvents in the product. One suggestion to the customer might be to tell the rope users that if they have a rope made of significant amounts of Nylon to use insect repellents with 95-100% DEET instead of ones with some DEET and large amounts of other oil based solvents. "
 CurlyStevo 10 Jun 2016
In reply to cathsullivan:

that's what I found also.
 CurlyStevo 10 Jun 2016
In reply to Pids:
smidge is nicer to use (much less greasy) and much more effective than avon SSS.
Post edited at 15:10
 SenzuBean 10 Jun 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

DEET apparently wrecks your clothes still:
http://sectionhiker.com/deet-dissolves-breathable-fabrics-experimental-resu...

Also it can destroy compasses and headtorches.

 CurlyStevo 10 Jun 2016
In reply to SenzuBean:
oh sure its not the best product in many ways. It melts various plastics for sure tastes horrible, and hurts your eyes even if minute quantities work there way in. It generally seems a bit worrying. But its doesn't seem to damage climbing gear (admittedly the tests are limited to static tensile strength pulling but still)
Post edited at 15:24
 skog 10 Jun 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

DEET, though I'm a bit scared of it (possibly irrationally), and now only use it abroad, against mosquitos and other insects which are more likely to spread disease.

I don't find Smidge helps me much, though my wife and kids quite like it, and it definitely reduces the numbers biting for a while. It's less unpleasant to use than DEET, though.

I couldn't find any benefit in Avon SSS, at least after it thinned to the point that incoming midges stoped drowning in it and sticking to me.
OP Andy Hardy 10 Jun 2016
In reply to Pids:

Bought some skin so soft in Kinlochleven donkeys years ago, it was crap at repelling midgies, but I smelt lovely. Best saved for my pre-photoshoot regime I think.
 CurlyStevo 10 Jun 2016
In reply to skog:

Yeah flies in general don't much like Avon - but once the midgies have worked them selves up in to a feeding / mating frenzy they don't seem much to care unless they drown in it like you say.
 SenzuBean 10 Jun 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> oh sure its not the best product in many ways. It melts various plastics for sure tastes horrible, and hurts your eyes even if minute quantities work there way in. It generally seems a bit worrying. But its doesn't seem to damage climbing gear (admittedly the tests are limited to static tensile strength pulling but still)

It might damage some semi-static ropes however, as they're made of polyester. Also what plastic is used on totem cams? Even if they'd still be structurally sound - I know I'd be furious if the trims melted off.
Or the triggers on a Dragon?
 planetmarshall 10 Jun 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

DEET. When it comes to midge defence, only the nastiest stuff from the petrochemical industry will do. Use the nuclear option, f*ck this organic bullshit.
 Pids 10 Jun 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> Bought some skin so soft in Kinlochleven donkeys years ago, it was crap at repelling midgies, but I smelt lovely. Best saved for my pre-photoshoot regime I think.

Used it when it first was found to be midge repellent and it did work - although it merely formed a barrier on your skin that the midges stuck to, once the film of SSS got washed off you were fair game again.

As to you smelling lovely we will take your word on it.
 SenzuBean 10 Jun 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Did anyone ever try the stuff that had bog myrtle in it? This stuff: http://www.stopbite.com/
Because of the EU rules (here we go...) it was not allowed to be sold anymore without a too-costly testing and licencing program. Did it work? If so, how well?
 StuDoig 10 Jun 2016
In reply to SenzuBean:

Or stitching in harnesses - there was an example last year of a harness disintegrating after being exposed to chemicals (not DEET but can't remember off the top of my head) that had no effect on the main material of the webbing, but complete degraded the stitching holding the harness together. I'd be dubious of saying it doesn't affect climbing gear based only on a single test done with ropes.

I've seen it make a right mess of a waterproof jacket too, and eat more than 1 watch strap.

I stick to SMIDGE, and I think that I'd be avoiding deet unless absolutely desperate, or abroad where there's a disease risk etc! Thankfully given I mainly seem to get out in the Cairngorms these days the east coast isn't yet nearly as bad as the west for the wee buggers!

Cheers!

Stu



 CurlyStevo 10 Jun 2016
In reply to SenzuBean:

> It might damage some semi-static ropes however, as they're made of polyester. Also what plastic is used on totem cams? Even if they'd still be structurally sound - I know I'd be furious if the trims melted off.

> Or the triggers on a Dragon?

Lost of people use deet climbing and so far not heard of trims or triggers melting off! The test I pasted above included a sample of polyester!
 skog 10 Jun 2016
In reply to SenzuBean:


"Totally natural ingredients, not tested on animals."

Hmm. I think I spot a flaw...
 CurlyStevo 10 Jun 2016
In reply to SenzuBean:
That stuff was pure rubbish, didn't do anything at all as far as I can tell! I bought some and tried it on skye some years back.
Post edited at 15:40
 StuDoig 10 Jun 2016
In reply to SenzuBean:

I found the bog murtle based stuff didn't work in the slightest. It did however result in much greater ease in fighting my way to the bar after a mauling!

I'm not affected as badly as most by them - largely down to heavy marmite consumption I think!

My wife normally gets mauled by them tried taking vitamin B tablets (can't remember which B off the top of my head) and did think they made a really noticeable difference.

Cheers,

Stu
 SenzuBean 10 Jun 2016
In reply to StuDoig:

Okay good to hear. I know some essential oils (tea tree) do work quite well, as I would prefer to use that kind of stuff as opposed to DEET. Smidge sounds pretty good - maybe I can do a triple-strength copy of it. I'm avoiding Scotland in the summer because of the midgies!
 CurlyStevo 10 Jun 2016
In reply to SenzuBean:

you better avoid grit, snowdonia and the lakes also then
 StuDoig 10 Jun 2016
In reply to SenzuBean:

Flame thrower is also pretty effective. Though I'm not sure if it'd qualify as climbing gear friendly.....

Cheers!

stu
 SenzuBean 10 Jun 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> you better avoid grit, snowdonia and the lakes also then

Eh I'll just put up with the biting! Weirdly the only time I've been bitten by them in Snowdonia was during a torrential downpour - what a crap day for SPA training that was...
 Fredt 10 Jun 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

This may not apply to anyone else in the world, but I have found a way to be unattractive to midges.

If I'm off out into midge land, I make sure I have not used soap, deodorant, perfume, anything scented.

I've found myself in groups of people who were all running for cover when I've been untouched.

I figured this out after a week solo bivouacking in the Cuillin. But as I said, it may only be me, with my unique repulsive smell.
 pigeonjim 10 Jun 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Smidge has never worked for me. DEET is utterly nasty but it works.
 CurlyStevo 10 Jun 2016
In reply to SenzuBean:
this does work relatively well http://www.sun-togs.co.uk/jungle-formula-insect-repellent-natural-pump-spra...

however it only last about 1.5 hours (tops) and you have to put a descent amount on (including through your hair) and its very strong smelling.

also just because something is natural it doesn't mean when concentrated in to an oil its safe for use around climbing gear
Post edited at 16:04
 CurlyStevo 10 Jun 2016
In reply to SenzuBean:

Right well some of the worst midgies I've had anywhere whilst actually climbing has been on grit.

Snowdonia and the lakes can certainly get bad for midgies too, perhaps not up to glencoe standards but as bad (if not worse) as the cairngorms.
 3leggeddog 10 Jun 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

After last nights attack, I am off to buy some big Cuban cigars to take to the crag.

In balance, I believe they will be more pleasant and less harmful than the combination of deet and midge bites
 AlH 10 Jun 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

From memory Lyon Equipment have a helmet (and Ecrin Roc) that was damaged (pitting and other surface damage- looked like a layer had been removed) by extensive use of a DEET based insect repellant.
 CurlyStevo 10 Jun 2016
In reply to AlH:

sounds about right. I don't use deet very often but as with all these things I try to be quite carefull how I do use it.
 Peter Metcalfe 10 Jun 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

We used Smidge in Clachaig Gully last week. Amazingly effective - would have been eaten alive without it. Highly recommended.
 Sleepy_trucker 10 Jun 2016
In reply to SenzuBean:

I once found a recipe for repellant using essential oils - I think it was cedarwood and citronella.

I spend quite a lot of time in long grass and woodland and have found deet needs to be on your exposed skin to keep the mozzies off - I. E. The smell alone doesn't keep them away but it's stronger on your skin and they stay off of it. That and only the really strong stuff makes much of a difference.

I think that's the key if you're worried about your gear; put it on your exposed skin when you're on the ground as opposed to spraying it everywhere (including your gear, rope, expensive waterproofs etc).
 Robert Durran 10 Jun 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> you better avoid grit, snowdonia and the lakes also then

No, no, encourage the myth that midges are worse in Scotland. We don't want the hills and crags getting busy.
 Robert Durran 10 Jun 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:
I was initially sceptical about Smidge, preferring the reassuring pure nastiness of 100% Deet liberally applied, but I have been using it this year and it seems to work very well for me - last weekend I was sitting around in Glen Brittle with a massive swarm around my head and crawling all over me without getting bitten (no head net - can't stand them), and I've just spent three nights in still, muggy weather around Ben Alder without any problems. Still keeping 100% Deet in reserve though in case later generations prove more aggressive.

Skin so Soft is completely ineffectual.

One thing that continually amazes me is how much some people complain about midges yet refuse to apply repellent and end up sitting in a tent or car all evening when they could be outside!
Post edited at 17:15
 CurlyStevo 10 Jun 2016
In reply to Robert Durran:

I think with the really strong deet liberally applied it does stop them crawling over you and swarming around your head.
 Robert Durran 10 Jun 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> I think with the really strong deet liberally applied it does stop them crawling over you and swarming around your head.

Not in my experience.
 CurlyStevo 10 Jun 2016
In reply to Robert Durran:
Well you could see it last weekend on the red squirrel. People with 95% Deet on were literally sitting outside their tents with barely a midge around them. I was using smidge which worked to a point, but as they were still landing and swarming around me they would find bits with less of it on and bite me. I did watch a few land and seriously not like it though.

Deet effects the ability of many flying insects to detect the presence of prey in the first place.

By the Autan uses the same active ingredient in the same ratio as smidge is about half the price and easier to get hold of.
Post edited at 18:08
 nathan79 10 Jun 2016
In reply to SenzuBean:

I've still got a bottle of it somewhere. It worked okay if I recall correctly but it was never tested with proper hordes of the sooky buggers.

As a bonus it smells of cola cubes. A favourite sweet of mine as a kid.
 nathan79 10 Jun 2016
In reply to 3leggeddog:

Works a treat and a wonderful way to keep them at bay.

I recall pitching my tent at Sligachan while puffing away (carefully so as not to incinerate my trusty Van go) with no hassle from the bitey blighters. I then sat chatting to an American from Boston (wearing full midge suit) and his British friend (midge net atop his napper) as I finished the smoke with a beer. I was by far the most comfortable.
 CurlyStevo 10 Jun 2016
In reply to nathan79:
if you mean this stuff http://www.stopbite.com/

Me and Stu have tested it with hoards of midgies, its next to useless didn't do anything that I could tell. If it really was any cop they'd pay for the trials and mint in!

More info here

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76204

"Stop Bite
Price: Around £3.00
Ease of use: Very easy, just spray and apply, as above.
Effectiveness: None, in tests in high levels of midges we found that there was no reduction in the number of bites."
Post edited at 18:52
OP Andy Hardy 10 Jun 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Looks like I'll buy both, and keep the DEET for when it's really bad

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