/ 4 minute mile

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Tom Ripley - on 15 Oct 2010
A friend of mine reckons he has run a 4 minute mile? He's not got a runners' build and has never been a particularly dedicated runner. He reckons he ran it before uni, when he'd have been 17.

I reckon he's bullshitting.

Surely a 4 minute mile is a major achievement. Comparatively the equivalent of climbing f8b+?

What do people reckon?
Axel Smeets - on 15 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley:

It's very impressive. Probably bullshit in all honesty. I'd be surprised if a 17 year old could achieve such a time if he wasn't a dedicated runner. You sure he's not getting his miles and his kilometres confused?

I'm very much a recreational runner but mildly dedicated and I've never gone under 5 mins.
Steve John B - on 15 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley: Ripley's Believe it or Not? I'd put money on it that your mate is lying. If not he should still be able to do sub 4:30, get him on a track and time him.

However in terms of a climbing comparison - what was the best tech grade climbed in the 1950s?
Monk - on 15 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley:

Is he saying 4 minutes dead, or is he saying below 5 minutes? If the latter, then it seems reasonable (but very good) but the former would be impressive.
Nick Smith - Climbers - on 15 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley: Some interesting reading here:
- http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0058.htm
Robertostallioni - on 15 Oct 2010
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC: Current British under 17 1500m, set this year is
1500m
Andrew Monaghan
Lagan Valley AC
3:57.65
2010
Which means the mile in 4 minutes by your mate is balls.
Ovett was the first teenager to run the 4 minute mile in 1974
Parrys_apprentice - on 15 Oct 2010
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:

in particular the sentence:

"The youngest-ever sub-four man was 17-year-old Jim Ryun, who went on to break world records at the mile, 1500m, half-mile and 800m."

Is your mate called Jim?
Steve John B - on 15 Oct 2010
In reply to Parrys_apprentice: That's him - he's never been a particularly dedicated runner though ;-)
khumbu - on 15 Oct 2010
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:

Very interesting article that. The main conclusion I drew from reading it is that I for one will never be running a sub 4 minute mile.
Axel Smeets - on 15 Oct 2010
In reply to khumbu:

Funny that, I drew precisely the same conclusions as you
Anonymous on 15 Oct 2010 - cpc4-brad20-2-0-cust112.barn.cable.virginmedia.com
In reply to Tom Ripley:

Google 'Meltham Maniac Mile' ..

CJ.
Milesy - on 15 Oct 2010
I am running a 6 minute mile when I am in training and I am proud of that. I would get your mate out with a stop watch and ensure he knows how far a mile is, and how long a minute is ;)
Mick Ward - on 15 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley:

> I reckon he's bullshitting.

Me too.

Mick

P.S. Pete Livesey's best time for a mile was something like 3.59. Ouch!
PeterM - on 15 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley:
100 m ~ 11 secs

400 m ~ 45 secs

4x 400 => 1600m = 1 mile = 180 secs =3 mins

Piece of p!ss! ;-)
allysingo - on 15 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley:
It only means chugging along at 15 miles per hour. For four minutes.
nniff - on 15 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley:

"The total oxygen requirement is nearly 40 litres, of which only half can be breathed in - thus it is half-aerobic and half-anaerobic"

I this point I began to feel a little off-colour. I think I'll stick with our monthly office handicap run. Now if only I hadn't had a long lay-off from running I wouldn't have a PB set 7 years ago Still, i had 45 seconds added to my handicap this week, which is heading in the right direction.
Steve John B - on 15 Oct 2010
In reply to khumbu:
> (In reply to Nick Smith - UKC)
>
> Very interesting article that. The main conclusion I drew from reading it is that I for one will never be running a sub 4 minute mile.

Snap!

It's roughly sixteen sub-15 second 100m runs one after the other.

I'm not sure I could do a single 100m in 15 seconds!
Banned User 77 - on 15 Oct 2010
In reply to Steve John B: Yeah, that's when you realise how impressive it is. Just go down a track do 200 in 30 seconds, for most of us that's fairly much flat out. Then see if you can do 400 in a minute.

Not many do sub 2 mins for 800 either.
Monk - on 15 Oct 2010
In reply to IainRUK:
> (In reply to Steve John B) Yeah, that's when you realise how impressive it is. Just go down a track do 200 in 30 seconds, for most of us that's fairly much flat out. Then see if you can do 400 in a minute.
>
> Not many do sub 2 mins for 800 either.

Putting it like that has made me wince. From my athletics days, 200 and 400 were my least favourite distances. They were just lung- and leg-busting pain.
Anonymous on 15 Oct 2010 - 88-111-206-161.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com
In reply to Tom Ripley: Downhill?
Shani - on 15 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley:
> A friend of mine reckons he has run a 4 minute mile? He's not got a runners' build and has never been a particularly dedicated runner. He reckons he ran it before uni, when he'd have been 17.
>
> I reckon he's bullshitting.
>
> Surely a 4 minute mile is a major achievement. Comparatively the equivalent of climbing f8b+?
>
> What do people reckon?

Only last week a short (5ft 4") and pudgy work mate of mine reckoned that in his teens he was deadlifting 300kg. And he reckoned he could also squat 300kg! Looking at his frame now (he is late 30s) I just can't believe he was ever that strong.

Apparently he told another colleague that he was 'registered as a lethal weapon' and could kill anyone with his martial arts skills - but he was legally obliged to warn them three times first.

I might ask him his time for the mile on Monday.....
MHutch - on 15 Oct 2010
In reply to Shani:

And people say that Bullshitting Jay from the Inbetweeners isn't a believable character...
Shani - on 15 Oct 2010
In reply to MHutch:
> (In reply to Shani)
>
> And people say that Bullshitting Jay from the Inbetweeners isn't a believable character...

I will tell the guy who plays Jay that when I next see him. ;)

I think most of us have 'over egged' a tale, or have employed a bit of sophistry to make a tale more entertaining, but when we overstep 'the mark', for most of us, we get a feeling inside that tells us that we have gone too far. I guess some people just don't have that same restraint mechanism.
fred99 - on 15 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley:
The British record for under 18 at the mile is held by;

Jon Dennis at 4 minutes, 6.2 seconds

This heavily suggests your friend is a complete bullsh*tter.

Maybe he ran the metric mile (1500 metres, about 108 metres shorter), in 4 minutes and many seconds (like about 59 of them).

To see the full list of all those who have broken the 4 minute mile from Britain, just google "athletics age group records", click on "United Kingdom all-time lists and records", and explore from there - the full list is under the Senior list for 800 - 5000 metres.
Dominion - on 15 Oct 2010
In reply to fred99:

> To see the full list of all those who have broken the 4 minute mile from Britain, just google "athletics age group records", click on "United Kingdom all-time lists and records", and explore from there - the full list is under the Senior list for 800 - 5000 metres.

Worth pointing out that those stats will not include people who've done the time on a track elsewhere on a non-officially timed race.

I know someone who claims to have done a sub-4 minute mile on an army training course thing a very long time ago (some twenty(plus)years ago or so) and I doubt that would be included in any official stats. Not that I'm sure I believe him completely. But he is skinny as a rake, even in his mid-40s, and without an ounce of fat on him, and both skinny and muscular at the same time.
Dominion - on 15 Oct 2010
In reply to Dominion:

Oh, and I've run the last two miles in a 5 mile run in 12 minutes, so nowhere even close to 4 minutes for 1 mile. But I think that, at the time I was running that, I could probably have been capable of a sub-5 minute mile for a one mile run, on a track at the time. My 2 miles included some hills, and crossing roads with traffic. Doubt I could have hit sub 4.30 though
Phil Payne - on 15 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley:

I remember reading something about Rich Simpson having broken the 4 minute mile and that he wanted to try and break 2h30 for the marathon. That would be a seriously impressive effort and I don't think many will have done that and to top it off, he's climbed 9a.
Phil Payne - on 15 Oct 2010
sleepy on 16 Oct 2010
In reply to Shani:

Ha, we all know people like that!
Graeme Johnson - on 16 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley:

Glasgow Uni has a "Chunder Mile" competition - drink a pint, run 400m, drink a pint, run 400m, and repeat until you've done 1600m and had 4 pints.

In the late eighties, my mate broke the record as a 1st year with a time of 5 mins 23 sec. The equivalent of climbing E5 pished.
Al Evans on 16 Oct 2010
In reply to Phil Payne:
> (In reply to Tom Ripley)
>
> I remember reading something about Rich Simpson having broken the 4 minute mile and that he wanted to try and break 2h30 for the marathon. That would be a seriously impressive effort and I don't think many will have done that and to top it off, he's climbed 9a.

2h30 for the marathon is a way sight easier than 4min for the mile.
Robertostallioni - on 16 Oct 2010
In reply to Al Evans: Not for Linford Christie.
Al Evans on 16 Oct 2010
In reply to Robertostallioni: I suspect it might be actually!
Yanis Nayu - on 16 Oct 2010
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Phil Payne)
> [...]
>
> 2h30 for the marathon is a way sight easier than 4min for the mile.

That's entirely down to individual physiology.
Mr Fuller on 16 Oct 2010
In reply to Phil Payne: Rich Simpson has done the 2.30 marathon too. It's at the bottom here: http://www.scarpa.co.uk/team/blogs.asp?TeamID=40

Reading that blog is unbelievable. He is an absolute machine. Climbed 9a, ran <2.30 marathon, <4minute mile, now enrolled at Cambridge uni, wants a go at the snowdon horseshoe record, glides up 8b+ over a couple of days, reckons he can climb M10/11...
Tom Knowles - on 16 Oct 2010
In reply to Mr Fuller:

Interesting blog. I don't think there's any doubt over Rich Simpson's diverse talents, I just wonder how he'll cope with the less controllable environment of the Alps, especially when chasing Steck's speed records. Temperance is a virtue in the high mountains and I'm not convinced that's a quality Simpson possesses. That said, he comes across as an honest and sincere guy, and I wish him all the best.
Shani - on 16 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Knowles:

Somebody should get him a copy of Whipplesnaith's 'Cambridge Nightclimbing' guide. He could crush Oxbridge urban climbing as we know it.
Tom Knowles - on 16 Oct 2010
In reply to Shani:

I was thinking too that had he a heavier build, a certain boat crew would probably make room for him...
Shani - on 16 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Knowles:
> (In reply to Shani)
>
> I was thinking too that had he a heavier build, a certain boat crew would probably make room for him...

Cox?
Mr Fuller on 16 Oct 2010
In reply to Shani: He's too heavy to be a traditional cox, but what a figure of inspiration!

I reckon he'd be a decent rower too. He might not be 6'3" but I bet he could match some of those guys for power.

I want to see him in a University Challenge team too.
Shani - on 18 Oct 2010
In reply to Mr Fuller:

Anyone know which marathon RS did in 2hr 30? Incredible claims require incredible proofs and all that.
Al Evans on 18 Oct 2010
In reply to Shani:
> (In reply to Mr Fuller)
>
> Anyone know which marathon RS did in 2hr 30? Incredible claims require incredible proofs and all that.

A 2hr 30 Marathon is not an incredible claim, now 2hr 15 and you are starting to look at close to a 4 min mile. Anything less is not even international mens standard, even Paula´s womens record is about 2hr 17.
MG - on 18 Oct 2010

> A 2hr 30 Marathon is not an incredible claim,

Pretty remarkable, if not quite incredible. Of the 36000 or so runners in the London Marathon only 52 were under 2.30 - less than 1 in 700!
Banned User 77 - on 18 Oct 2010
In reply to Shani: Very believable, he's incredibly fit, has raw pace (i.e. done a 4 minute mile). I've done 2:46 and have very little pace.
Irk the Purist - on 18 Oct 2010
In reply to Shani:

http://www.marathonguide.com/results/index.cfm

Search yourself! (I couldn't find it)

smallerrich - on 18 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley:

You guys are so cool.
Shani - on 18 Oct 2010
In reply to IainRUK:
> (In reply to Shani) Very believable, he's incredibly fit, has raw pace (i.e. done a 4 minute mile). I've done 2:46 and have very little pace.

I'd like to know where/when he did the 4MM as well!

As an obviously capable distance runner, do you reckon that with training you could do a 4MM or is it something for genetic freaks?
Banned User 77 - on 18 Oct 2010
In reply to Shani: I'd say probably not, maybe if I trained solidly for that distance, I'd certainly hope to get down to below 4:30, but don't know if I could get any lower.

TBH though I don't like thinking about genetic limitations because very few of us compete at our genetic limit. I certainly don't. But I think too many hide behind that as an excuse not to train hard and well.
Steve John B - on 18 Oct 2010
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Shani)
> [...]
>
> A 2hr 30 Marathon is not an incredible claim, now 2hr 15 and you are starting to look at close to a 4 min mile. Anything less is not even international mens standard, even Paula´s womens record is about 2hr 17.

Only one British athlete has gone under 2hr 15 this year.
Irk the Purist - on 18 Oct 2010
A 4 minute mile is 3:45 for 1500m which allows us to guage the achievement on an international stage.

Bejing 2008 - http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer08/results?eventId=300
Rich Simpson would have beaten 8 of the starters in round 1. If we assume that you can take 0.5 a second off for not running as far, he would have beaten a further 2.

The fastest British athlete, Andy Baddeley finished in 3:36.47. The second fastest Tom Lancashire finished in 3:43.40.

It is safe to assume that anyone capable of a sub 4 minute mile would be challenging for the British Olympic team. It's a very, very high standard. I wouldn't believe anyone that told me they'd done it unless they backed it up with some proof!

As for a sub 2:30 marathon, that's more believable but still extremely difficult. To do both in such a short space of time would be athletic prowess of very special proportions. It's not unreasonable for people to be incredulous.



Niek - on 18 Oct 2010
In reply to Shani: "With regards to the mile. It's been a lifelong ambition (I came from a running background). I'd previously run several miles under 4.05 minutes, but never broken the 4 minute barrier. I ran 3.58 whilst pace setting at the Alexandre Stadium (I was supposed to drop out after three laps, but felt strong so continued)"
Shani - on 18 Oct 2010
In reply to Beowulf:
> (In reply to Shani) "With regards to the mile. It's been a lifelong ambition (I came from a running background). I'd previously run several miles under 4.05 minutes, but never broken the 4 minute barrier. I ran 3.58 whilst pace setting at the Alexandre Stadium (I was supposed to drop out after three laps, but felt strong so continued)"

Cheers. Maybe it was an 'official' event then, and so maybe it is recorded somewhere?
bowls - on 18 Oct 2010
In reply to Eric the Red:

A 4 minute mile is actually worth aroudn 3:42 for 1500m. It is 1609 metres, so you have to add on over a second for the extra 9 metres plus the fatigue by covering the extra 109 metres.

By best 1500m was 3:41, like to say it equates to a sub 4 mile, but never raced enough to get under.

any notable perfomances will be incuded here for this year and previous years

http://www.thepowerof10.info/
Hat Dude on 18 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley:

Didn't John Walker expend a lot of energy in the 1990s trying to be the 1st man over 40 to run a sub 4 min mile?
He didn't manage it but it just shows the class of athlete you need to be.
Steve John B - on 18 Oct 2010
In reply to bowls:
>
> any notable perfomances will be incuded here for this year and previous years
>
> http://www.thepowerof10.info/

And some not so notable ones:

http://www.thepowerof10.info/athletes/profile.aspx?athleteid=232655
allysingo - on 18 Oct 2010
In reply to Steve John B:
Did you walk round?
Steve John B - on 18 Oct 2010
In reply to allysingo: Oi! Cheeky...

I've just looked up the world record for walking 5000m. 18 minutes 6 seconds. Flipping heck.
allysingo - on 18 Oct 2010
In reply to Steve John B:
It had to be done, sorry! I get it all the time when people ask me my results.
Steve John B - on 18 Oct 2010
In reply to allysingo: Hey no worries! I'm determined to beat that walking guy though, need a good 6 months injury-free training and a following wind...
petestack - on 18 Oct 2010
In reply to bowls:
> By best 1500m was 3:41, like to say it equates to a sub 4 mile, but never raced enough to get under.

That's absolutely fantastic, so well done! But looks like you're still young enough to give it another go? ;-)
Liam M - on 18 Oct 2010
In reply to Steve John B:
> (In reply to allysingo) Hey no worries! I'm determined to beat that walking guy though, need a good 6 months injury-free training and a following wind...

And a course that isn't just about undulating enough to break you at around 3k (before the HPTT you could have convinced me Woodhouse Moor was flat!)
bowls - on 18 Oct 2010
In reply to petestack:

Not with my achilles tendon and the weight gain over the last 5 or 6 years!
Running Climber on 19 Oct 2010
In reply to Eric the Red:

I too am incredulous. There would certainly be a record of his 3:58 mile. I believe it is claimed that he ran it at the Alexandre Stadium in Birmingham, was pacing but carried on to clock a sub 4. I can find no such record of this. Running a sub 4 is more than just being fit enough to do it - you need a LOT of racing to fine tune your legs to running that fast and to be able to dial in the pace exactly. Just ask Roger Bannister. I can find no record of Mr Simpson ever having competed in any recorded athletic event.

The 2:30 marathon I am more inclined to believe. Or... I was. He claimed to have achieved it in New York. No problem. I check the results of the NY City Marathon and he has never run it.

Also this: a 3:58 miler moving up to the marathon would need a lot of miles in his legs, a lot of volume, and plenty of time to make the transition. And a 3:58 miler would not be aiming for a 2:30 marathon - he would be going for something significantly under 2:15.

He may be a good climber, but I'm afraid that his running claims simply do not ring true.

Evidence of the 3:58 is nowhere to be found.
Banned User 77 - on 19 Oct 2010
In reply to Running Climber: I doubt there would be if he was just pacing. If he did the sub 4 pacing and didn't finish an actual race it wouldn't count.

There should be a record of the sub 2:30 marathon though.

Could all be true, I'm surprised he doesn't have an athletics data profile though. Couldn't see it when I looked. Clearly a top athlete so I don't know either way, just the lack of power of 10 profile is suspicious. Even someone at my level has a reasonable profile in the site.
The New NickB - on 19 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley:

I know a couple of guys who have run sub 4 minutes miles, both whilst on athletics scholarships at US universities. Between them they hold most of our club records.

He might have run a mile in 4 minutes something, I can do that, but I am pretty pleased with myself when I do. For me it would be nearer 4:59 than 4:01.
Running Climber on 19 Oct 2010
In reply to IainRUK:

You are correct. I'm not overly surprised that he doesn't feature in the race result if he were pacing (although they sometimes list pacers who go on to win...). However, you don't just get invited to pace a top class mile event. You prove your worth through many, many races at a high level. There is no record of him ever having competed in any athletics event, at any level.

It is a sad reflection on British marathoning that his sub 2:30 would have put him in the yearly GB rankings - he doesn't appear there either.

It is time to stop looking folks. It is bollocks.
fred99 - on 19 Oct 2010
In reply to Running Climber:
Agree with your last line wholeheartedly.
Anyway, ALL finishers would be recorded, and for a pacemaker to break 4 would probably be a first - I pacemade (many years ago) for the first half mile (1;58), and dropped out just afterwards, and if you watch the races on the box, pacemakers just don't finish.

As for the Marathon, 2:30 used to be (in the late 70's/early 80's) regarded as the time for a good club runner, and it didn't count unless you were under 2:20. In the 3 clubs of Worcester, Gloucester and Cheltenham alone there were 10 guys who ran 2:20 and bits or faster, and Worcester had 2 vets who ran 2:23 -2:24.
Stuart (aka brt) - on 19 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley:

Maybe his races were organised by this lot...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-11572283

;-)
Richard Wainwright on 19 Oct 2010
In reply to Running Climber:

Time to stop looking. Yes!

Whether it is bollocks or not I don't think is something for you to decide.

I think some folk should suck in their jealousy and let things like this wash over them.
wilding - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Mr Plow:

Well the original article says that he intends to do the marathon

"Just a 2.30 marathon to go now, which I hope to do in New York this November."

Obviously, it didn't happen. no big deal.

Running Climber on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to fred99:

Fred - you are right - but sadly British marathoning is not what it was in the 70s and 80s.
Running Climber on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to wilding:
> (In reply to Mr Plow)
>
> Well the original article says that he intends to do the marathon
>
> "Just a 2.30 marathon to go now, which I hope to do in New York this November."
>
> Obviously, it didn't happen. no big deal.

Agreed. The original article also says that he HAS run a sub 4. Obviously didn't happen. No big deal.

ali k on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to wilding:
>
> Well the original article says that he intends to do the marathon
>
> "Just a 2.30 marathon to go now, which I hope to do in New York this November."
>
> Obviously, it didn't happen. no big deal.

Actually it 'did' happen. According to Rich at least! I met him in Siurana shortly after, when he claimed to have just completed the New York marathon in sub 2:30 (2:27 if I remember correctly). Anyway, knowing a little about running times I thought that was pretty amazing and checked the results for the New York marathon that year. He didn't appear. I also checked the few previous years results in case he was getting confused, but again no mention of him. However, the top British men's time that year was 2:41. Which would mean that if his claim was true, then Rich was the top male marathon runner in Britain at that time. Unlikely?

I have since heard many similar stories from various people about his top-end climbing achievements, but obviously nothing as concrete as an official results page, so it's hard to be sure about those. The only thing I do know is that regarding the marathon time he seems to be spinning someone a bit of a tale.
Banned User 77 - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to ali k:
> (In reply to wilding)
> [...]
>
> then Rich was the top male marathon runner in Britain at that time. Unlikely?
>
>

A fair few go sub 2:25 each year, so 2:27 would never make someone the top marathon runner.

Liam M - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to IainRUK:
> (In reply to ali k)
> [...]
>
> A fair few go sub 2:25 each year, so 2:27 would never make someone the top marathon runner.

I think he was referring to NY Marathon. I had a look a few days ago and no athletes listed as British in the nationality field went anywhere near 2.27. Though I don't know if nationality is a compulsory field on the entry forms.
Banned User 77 - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Liam M: Ok, but not many Brits would do New York. The top of the marathon field in the UK is thin. Only 23 runners have run sub 2:25 this year, when in decades gone by you'd probably see 4 times that number.

For the argument that Rich S never claimed to do sub 2:30, I thought it said at the bottom of a webpage linked above that both running targets were met hence the return to climbing.

I'm still unsure. I can understand no record of the sub 4, but not the sub 2:30 marathon. That would have been picked up by powerof10.
tony on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to IainRUK:
> I'm still unsure. I can understand no record of the sub 4, but not the sub 2:30 marathon. That would have been picked up by powerof10.

I find the sub 4 pretty incredible. To be asked to run as pace setter, you would have a solid record of running at that pace, and I would have thought the record would have to have been established at recognised events, so there would be more than one sub 4 mile (or a sizeable stack of 4.01s and 4.02s). All seems a bit unlikely.
summo on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley: perhaps he did it over the last mile of a recent half marathon at Cardiff?
thommi - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley & running climber: Ive got slightly confused as to who people are doubting. Toms mate? yes, proberbly not true. As for Rich, the guy has done what he says. I dont get how people can doubt him. hes sat on the edge of publicity for a long time. He didnt scream and shout about action direct or a muerte. he doesnt spray about his boxing results. Id be inclined to believe the bloke. Rich has got form and just stays quiet and gets on with it, at the same time as being a really nice bloke. I personally think he is one of the countries most inspiring athletes.
Steve John B - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to thommi:
> As for Rich, the guy has done what he says. I dont get how people can doubt him.

I expect it's because people have checked the results for the NY marathon and there are no Simpsons under 2:30. Unless he's so unassuming he did it under a false name. Which would probably invalidate his insurance... ;-)

Anyway, good on him, whoever he is.
thommi - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to steve: where have people got the idea that he did >2.30 in NY?
Jim Hamilton - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Mr Plow:
> Whether it is bollocks or not I don't think is something for you to decide.
>

but it's just the thing for internet forum speculation !

its not about jealousy, its questioning some dubious claims. if you set yourself up as a worldclass athlete on a blog, but lie about your running (and climbing ?), then it deserves some comment.

of course its a bit unfair as we haven't heard from Mr Simpson, and if he comes across this thread he might post a robust defence.
Al Evans on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to fred99:
> (In reply to Running Climber)
> Agree with your last line wholeheartedly.
> Anyway, ALL finishers would be recorded, and for a pacemaker to break 4 would probably be a first - I pacemade (many years ago) for the first half mile (1;58), and dropped out just afterwards, and if you watch the races on the box, pacemakers just don't finish.

I´m sure I remember a time when a record was not valid unless the pacemaker finished.
thommi - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Jim Hamleton : Are you accussing Rich of lying about his climbing? do you have any idea about the chap? I bet youve never heard of him before today right?
thommi - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to al evans : used to be, but not anymore.
Stash - on 20 Oct 2010
Can we get off the Rich Simpson debate please!

Leave the guy alone. He will rub all your faces in the dirt one day, trust me. He wont even be trying to do it that's the best part!
thommi - on 20 Oct 2010
thommi - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Stash: agreed.
Jim Hamilton - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to thommi:
> (In reply to Jim Hamleton ) Are you accussing Rich of lying about his climbing? do you have any idea about the chap? I bet youve never heard of him before today right?

your quite right, i have not heard of him before reading the thread and his blog. my point is that if someone can lie about one sport (which many posters seem to think he has done) it doesn't seem that unlikely that they will lie about another.
thommi - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Jim Hamleton: Judge only for yourself fella. I wouldnt doubt a word he says.
Banned User 77 - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Jim Hamilton: To be clear I've not suggested he'd lied. I have a few doubts but also think that in sports like running and climbing you have to trust claims until proven otherwise. I do have doubts, but it is entriely plausible he did both, a foreign marathon may not get picked up by Po10. I submitted my texan performance myself (many races take Pof10 records as your entry category), and also if he paced a mile he wouldn't be recorded.

However I would have expected to see a history of elite performances picked up in Pof 10.
MHutch - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Jim Hamilton:

I'm sure Mr Simpson is steering well clear of "trial by internet" after this particular debacle.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=157884&v=1

Perhaps the accusers should learn by his experience.
Steve John B - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to thommi:
> (In reply to steve) where have people got the idea that he did >2.30 in NY?

I don't know - I think that was mentioned in his blog or something. I don't care!
Steve John B - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Stash:
>
> Leave the guy alone. He will rub all your faces in the dirt one day, trust me.

That sounds like a thoroughly unpleasant thing to do, I thought he was supposed to be a nice person. You can't believe anything people say on the internet anymore.
Tom Knowles - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to tony:
> (In reply to IainRUK)

> I find the sub 4 pretty incredible. To be asked to run as pace setter, you would have a solid record of running at that pace, and I would have thought the record would have to have been established at recognised events, so there would be more than one sub 4 mile (or a sizeable stack of 4.01s and 4.02s). All seems a bit unlikely.


In the UKC article, a link to which is posted above, and which another poster has already highlighted, Simpson states:

"With regards to the mile. It's been a lifelong ambition (I came from a running background). I'd previously run several miles under 4.05 minutes, but never broken the 4 minute barrier. I ran 3.58 whilst pace setting at the Alexandre Stadium (I was supposed to drop out after three laps, but felt strong so continued)".

So, despite what you said before, Simpson had a clutch of 4:00 - 4:04 minute miles under his belt prior to his 3:58. It's unusual for a pacesetter to win a race, but it does happen, and there have been a few high-profile cases of this in major races over the years. Having the role of pacesetter can remove a lot of pressure and contribute to a fast performance, which looks to have occurred in Simpson's case.

Contrary to many opinions on here, running a sub-4 min mile is not beyond the realms of possibility for someone who is built for the event, and Simpson mentions that he came from a running background. Running a sub-3:50 mile would be another thing altogether, and any claim to have done this would obviously be treated with skepticism.

It's also the case that many athletes can produce a remarkable "one-off" time, a time when everything clicked and when conditions (environmental, physical, psychological) were right. Seb Coe's 800m world record that he set in Florence in 1981 is a good example of this, a race he described as feeling effortless. That record stood for 16 years and still ranks as the third fastest time ever set for the distance.

As for the marathon, many middle-distance runners will do a 13-15 mile run as part of their weekly training and, at times, more. Doing a 2h 30m marathon shortly after running a 4 min mile would certainly be an extraordinary achievement, but not so much if you're no longer concentrating on the mile and focusing purely on the marathon. Again, this is what Simpson has said he did.

To put a climbing slant on things, Dave MacLeod climbed The Hurting (XI,11), Perfect Crime (V13), Armstrong (F8c) and Whirlwind (E8 6c) all within a 4 month period in 2005. Now that's a range of ability that could quite rightly be called extraordinary.
Phil Payne - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley:

About the NY marathon, isn't it possible that he did run a 2h30, but he timed himself from when he crossed the start and finish line. If you're not running as an elite athlete in these events, it's entirely possible that it could take 20 mins to cross the start line, so his official recorded time would be way outside 2h30.
Tom Knowles - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Phil Payne:

The NY Marathon organisers now supply runners with electronic chips for their shoes so that their times are accurately measured.
Steve John B - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Knowles:
>
> "With regards to the mile. It's been a lifelong ambition (I came from a running background). I'd previously run several miles under 4.05 minutes, but never broken the 4 minute barrier. I ran 3.58 whilst pace setting at the Alexandre Stadium (I was supposed to drop out after three laps, but felt strong so continued)".
>
> So, despite what you said before, Simpson had a clutch of 4:00 - 4:04 minute miles under his belt prior to his 3:58.

In terms of a pointless internet argument, he merely claims to have run a number of sub 4:05 miles. This is not evidence.

NOTE: I don't care what time Mr S has run and remain agnostic about the whole thing. I'm sure he's a lovely man and a splendid athlete.
Steve John B - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley:
> A friend of mine reckons he has run a 4 minute mile? He's not got a runners' build and has never been a particularly dedicated runner. He reckons he ran it before uni, when he'd have been 17.

I think the real issues are being ignored here.

To the OP: What time has your mate done in the New York marathon?
Tom Knowles - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Steve John B:
> (In reply to Tom Knowles)

> .... he merely claims to have run a number of sub 4:05 miles. This is not evidence.


That's a shame that you say something like that, that you have such distrust of others. Why do you need "evidence"?
Running Climber on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Knowles:
> (In reply to Steve John B)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
>
> That's a shame that you say something like that, that you have such distrust of others. Why do you need "evidence"?

You are right. Why do we need evidence? By the way - have I mentioned that I swam the English Channel yesterday? Managed it in 6hrs. Not too bad. It has been a life long ambition of mine, and I had a clutch of 6hr 30 times, so was particularly pleased with this. You won't find any evidence of this by the way (and why would you want it - an unfounded statement on the internets seems perfectly fine.)

Thickhead - on 20 Oct 2010


Just to stir things up a bit, I don't have a Pof10 sheet - my 10K PB wasn't officially recorded correctly (timing must have swapped my number for someone else's - taking 13seconds off mine), my HM PB was run under someone else's name (naughty I know). My Marathon PB fortunately is correct, as I don't care so much about the others!
Banned User 77 - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Thickhead: To have a power of 10 profile you generally need to have ran pretty quick times, for example their 10k rankings stop at 36 minutes.

Their marathon rankings to 3:00:00

http://www.thepowerof10.info/rankings/rankinglist.aspx?event=Mar&agegroup=ALL&sex=M&year...

The only reason others outside of these timings have a profile is if they have ran some cross terrain or fell race and been picked up by the system.
Thickhead - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to IainRUK:

Fair enough!

Will have to work on that last 385yards then to get under 3hours...

Does it automatically pick you up then if say you run the London in under 3hours?
Banned User 77 - on 20 Oct 2010
ali k on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to IainRUK:
> A fair few go sub 2:25 each year, so 2:27 would never make someone the top marathon runner.

Ok. I should have said it would have made him the top British athlete in the NY marathon that year, and among the top British marathon runners at that time. I accept that many British runners would not compete in that race. However it would still be a mighty fine achievement if it were true.
ali k on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to thommi:
> (In reply to steve) where have people got the idea that he did >2.30 in NY?

I've got the idea - from him telling me directly, shortly after the event. And also because it now appears on his blog as such.
Tom Knowles - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Running Climber:

You're acting as if in a jury. Again, why do you need evidence? What will it prove, or disprove (in the wider scheme of things)? if Rich has lied, and Tom's friend has lied, they're essentially only deluding themselves. And if that's the case, so be it. What significance would those lies have for you?
ali k on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to thommi:
> (In reply to Jim Hamleton) https://www.vimeo.com/6848413

This is one of the climbing achievements I was talking about when i said many people have doubts about his top-level climbs. Chris (Doyle) said at the time that the ascent featured on his video was not the actual ascent. I believe the doubts centre around the unknown belayer for this ascent, as well as a few of his other hard ascents.
ali k on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Knowles:

> Again, why do you need evidence? What will it prove, or disprove (in the wider scheme of things)? if Rich has lied...they're essentially only deluding themselves. And if that's the case, so be it. What significance would those lies have for you?

The problem for me is that he's making money out of these claims through sponsorship. There are A LOT of very deserving climbers and runners out there who are probably struggling to make ends meet and getting pitiful amounts of free boots, trainers, chalk, etc (if anything at all). I don't think it's unreasonable for the public to ask for proof of top-level achievements if these world-class athletes are effectively acting as ambassadors for the sports and making money from them. It is definitely the trend to get video footage of hard ascents, no matter how crap the footage ends up being (Dave Mac's Darwin Dixit video for example, Franco's Moose thing - the video, not the route!). No-one doubts Dave's achievements because everything is captured on film.

Anyway, for me on a personal level, Rich Simpson has made some claims about his marathon time to my face, which turned out to be false. He also said some other things at the time about how much money he was making from each boxing fight, which also turned out to be totally unrealistic (after speaking to a friend involved in the boxing scene). I've subsequently heard many stories regarding his top climbs relating to unknown belayers and mysterious 'I've just done route X but the belayer had to go home' type stories. So as far as I'm concerned, I find it hard to believe any of his achievements. I'm not saying I don't think he's an exceptional climber (that's clear) or a good runner. And he's obviously an exceptionally motivated and dedicated individual. However, all these unrealistic claims and stories about the top end achievements, both in climbing and running, don't add up. It's not just one isolated incident. So for me personally, I take his 'achievements' with a pinch of salt.
The New NickB - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Knowles:

The claim is public because it is on his blog, this thread is discussing that claim.

What is your problem with that?
Thickhead - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to IainRUK:

There's hope for me yet then!
Tom Knowles - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to ali k:
> (In reply to Tom Knowles)

> The problem for me is that he's making money out of these claims through sponsorship.

In that case, let the sponsors decide whether to renew his contracts.

> It is definitely the trend to get video footage of hard ascents, no matter how crap the footage.

It might be a recent trend to get video footage of hard ascents, but it certainly shouldn't be necessary.

> No-one doubts Dave's achievements because everything is captured on film.

In Scottish winter climbing, routes don't get any harder than Anubis. Dave provided photographs of the ascent but that only encouraged people to doubt him for the allegedly poor conditions that the route was climbed in. This was in spite of Dave's word to the contrary and glowing reports by Simon Richardson.

> So for me personally, I take his 'achievements' with a pinch of salt.

It's fine for you to doubt Simpson's claims, that's your prerogative. But why throw around potentially hurtful accusations of lying on a public forum? Your excuse that he's an "ambassador" for the sport is a poor one, and seems only to emphasise the bitterness that underlines your replies.
Banned User 77 - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Thickhead: Its random to a point, its fairly automated so you can have some of your better runs missed yet it'll pick up some quite obscure small fell races. for example it picked up a hilly 10k I did in 38 minutes because I came 2nd in a field of 20 runners or so. if you get top 3 it tends to pick you up regardless of time or standard of the race.

The old site, athletics data, before it became power of 10, had the qualifying standards much clearer on the site. I can't find them on Pof10.
Steve John B - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Knowles:
> (In reply to Steve John B)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
>
> That's a shame that you say something like that, that you have such distrust of others. Why do you need "evidence"?

I don't need evidence because I don't care how long it takes him to run a mile.

I said "in the context of a pointless internet argument". I've never even implied that I don't believe him.
Shani - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Knowles:
> (In reply to Running Climber)
>
> You're acting as if in a jury. Again, why do you need evidence? What will it prove, or disprove (in the wider scheme of things)? if Rich has lied, and Tom's friend has lied, they're essentially only deluding themselves. And if that's the case, so be it. What significance would those lies have for you?

I think you are right. There should be no trial by UKC. But he has made a remarkable claim with regard to running. It is only natural that people would investigate such an incredible (and inspiring), feat. As with all exceptional claims, evidence is required before a judgement of 'truth' can be made.

I don't doubt Rich, but that is because I am awaiting proof. If he doesn't supply proof, then that is no problem to any of us, but you should not expect me or anyone else to accept his achievements as a fact until proof is provided.
Banned User 77 - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Shani:
> (In reply to Tom Knowles)

>
> I don't doubt Rich, but that is because I am awaiting proof. If he doesn't supply proof, then that is no problem to any of us, but you should not expect me or anyone else to accept his achievements as a fact until proof is provided.


I think that sums up my position..
Tom Knowles - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Shani:
> (In reply to Tom Knowles)
>
> There should be no trial by UKC.

Goodness, that all sounds very serious. By the way, it's not UKC who's putting him on trial, just a group of begrudging individuals with a mob mentality.

> It is only natural that people would investigate such an incredible (and inspiring), feat. As with all exceptional claims, evidence is required before a judgement of 'truth' can be made.

It's maybe natural where you come from, but it isn't for me. And on that note, I'll leave you to your little courtroom debacle, and sign off.
Irk the Purist - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Knowles:

There is no begrudging here, or jealousy. I applaud the winner at any race I'm in. I wait for the prize giving. I seek out winners and shake their hands. I'm part of an online community and a real community where we spur each other on and encourage each other to better ourselves.

When someone claims to have achieved what Rich Simpson claims to have achieved, I am excited by it. I WANT TO believe because it will be inspiring to me, in the same was elite racers inspire me. I'm not jealous of Paula Radcliffe, I'm inspired by her.

However, if you type my name into either of the sites mentioned you will find me. If you google my name + running you will find my results. This DOES NOT happen with Rich Simpson. When race results are so widely and publicly available it is very hard to believe achievements for which verification cannot be found. This is more frustrating to me than anything. As I said before, you can't blame people for being incredulous under these circumstances.

For what it's worth, I dearly wish he would turn up himself and point us to the results we're looking for.

fred99 - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Knowles:
Today I did some checking.
I contacted someone I know in the administration of Athletics in the Midlands, based in Birmingham.
This person is not only a full time employee, but also is involved in;
1) The local club - Birchfield Harriers.
2) Team management & coachingh the West Midlands (B'ham) Schools athletics.
4) Team management at Midland level.
5) Team Management at England level.
6) Keeping the records and (inc power of 10 I believe) in the Midlands.
7) Organising meetings (League, cup and open) at Alexander Stadium.
8) Seeding of athletes at meetings of all levels.

You can therefore take it that this person should know what's what, particularly regarding both the supposed level of the performance, and the fact that my contact had fingertip access to ALL the records on the computer sat on their desk.

This person could NOT find;

1) Any meeting late summer 2008 at Alexander Stadium that included a mile.
2) No mention of the supposed athlete anywhere at 1500m/mile.
3) There were NO meetings anywhere else with any such performance.
4) NO record of this person at ANY time having been at such a level.

Furthermore the track is AlexanDER Stadium, not AlexanDRE, a bit like saying you'd climbed all the E5's at StanEDGE.

Also, in 2008, only 1 British runner broke 4 minutes for the mile - Andrew Baddeley.

I therefore suggest that someone is telling gross porkies, and that maybe a few more of his claims should be made subject to investigation.

If he thinks different, then the date, meeting title, and so forth should be made known - and I probably know anyone likely to put on any such meeting personally, so they're only a phone call away if confirming is required.

And if anyone wants to query anything I have done, I can provide the evidence.

fred99 - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to fred99)
> [...]
>
> I´m sure I remember a time when a record was not valid unless the pacemaker finished.


Actually Al, the rule was (formerly) only applicable if the pacer was adjudged to be a non-recognised runner at that event, and also failed to finish.

It was ineffective, as the pacer, even if totally from a different event (i.e. 400m), only had to walk to the finish to frustrate even the most rabid official from declaring the result null and void.

Nowadays the domestic (UK) rule only excludes "pacing by persons not participating in a race, unless assisting a blind or partially sighted runner." (Rule 21, section 1, subsection (a)).
The international (IAAF) rule is slightly diferently worded, but is fundamentally the same. (Rule 144, section 2, subsection (c)).

And no, I'm not an horrendous anorak, I'm a fairly senior (in ability not age !) Track & Field Athletics Official, just at the point of trying to become an International Official.
petestack - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to fred99:
> Furthermore the track is AlexanDER Stadium, not AlexanDRE, a bit like saying you'd climbed all the E5's at StanEDGE.

Could be this one...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Memorial_Park_and_Alexandre_Stadium

But don't think so!

;-)
Shani - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Knowles:
> (In reply to Shani)
> [...]
>
> Goodness, that all sounds very serious. By the way, it's not UKC who's putting him on trial, just a group of begrudging individuals with a mob mentality.

Tom - I don't mean to sound 'serious' - but I am sure we are all aware that these things can turn in to a bit of a witch-hunt and wanted to state that that is certainly not my intention. Such threads can descend in to unpleasant affairs and I have no wish to take part in one.

RS has some impressive achievments to his name. Nailing 9a, a four minute mile and a sub 2:30 marathon are amazing achievements. Totally inspiring. It makes you think what a superb athlete he must be if he can do all this. It also makes you wonder not only how far he could push climbing, but also how far he could push running if he really 'went for it'. It also makes me wonder what else he could excel at if he turned his hand to it (rowing was mentioned above, for example). His achievements as stated above are AMAZING.

Now you seem to have come to this thread in a rather defensive fashion, and whilst some of the hear-say and conjecture above is perhaps inflammatory, I AND SEVERAL OTHERS ON THIS THREAD HAVE APPROACHED THESE ACHIEVEMENTS IN A SPIRIT OF WONDERMENT.

I am sure as an athlete, Rich Simpson would expect any such remarkable claim to be backed up by evidence - I mean isn't it natural when someone makes an amazing claim to ask 'which race' and 'when'?.

I am sure you yourself would require evidence if I said I had run a 4MM or achieved sub 2:30 in the marathon. As both these latter two events are regularly monitored and measured across a wide range of formal events, it seems to be harder to avoid popping up on a database than otherwise - particularly if such levels of performance are being achieved.

Whatever the rumours, it is nevertheless surprising that a few simple queries (and several in depth ones), have brought up no evidence of either the stated achievements, or records by RS of, say, a sub 3:00 marathon or a time just outside a four minute mile. You'd expect a bit of 'smoke' if not the fire itself.

> It's maybe natural where you come from, but it isn't for me. And on that note, I'll leave you to your little courtroom debacle, and sign off.

Again, if someone says they ran a 2:30 marathon - I would naturally ask 'which marathon and when'. Why is that so unnatural to you? Just as if someone says they climbed 9a, I'd ask 'which route and when'. As for a 4MM....well I am sure you can guess the direction my curiosity would lead me in.

You seem to be making an appeal to authority but I have yet to meet a climber who, whilst not bullshitting outright, has not pushed a climbing story a wee bit (me included) - recounting a tale with a longer run-out, a bigger fall, worse gear, a harder crux etc....It is all part of telling a good tale. No harm in that. But also, there is a history of climbers in the upper echelons of climbing bullshitting - be it about a FA, chipping, red pointing, practicing a route etc....

Now personally I have no qualms (at the moment) about RS's climbing achievements, but his running achievements....well let's say the jury is still out until I see some hard proof. This requirement is firming up as this thread develops - for obvious reasons.

If nobody can be bothered to provide proof then NP - just don't expect me to believe it.
fred99 - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to petestack:
Yes, a fair way from Birmingham isn't it.
Shani - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Shani:

P.S. If RS does post up evidence it will be absolutely awesome and totally inspiring!
fred99 - on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Shani:

A very polite way of putting it - I think the supposed sub-four minute miler is just one thing - a liar living in some Walter Mitty existence.
ali k on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Knowles:
> Your excuse that he's an "ambassador" for the sport is a poor one, and seems only to emphasise the bitterness that underlines your replies.

How is he not an ambassador for the sport? If his claims are true, then he's without doubt one of the best climbers this country has ever produced. And someone that people will always respect and admire for his amazing achievements.

I'm not categorically stating that I don't believe his claims of hard ascents. Admittedly, I'm only going on second-hand information and rumour for these (granted, from various unrelated sources), but ultimately I accept that I don't know, and probably never will know the truth. I do, however, genuinely hope they are true. And I mean that. So for you to accuse me of bitterness is actually quite wide of the mark.

All I know is that his claim of a sub 2:30 marathon time is looking pretty unlikely, as is the sub 4 minute mile. It's easy to get round the lack of witnesses/records for climbing achievements, as there's rarely more than the climber and belayer present for the actual ascent. However with organised running events with official timings, rankings, online race results etc etc it's harder to fake. And there appears to be absolutely no record of a Rich Simpson competing in a single race. Therefore to my mind it's only natural to start wondering if his climbing-related claims are in fact genuine.

> ...why throw around potentially hurtful accusations of lying on a public forum?

As I said earlier, the problem for me is that the sponsorship pot for climbers is pretty small. And I imagine the same is true in running. And if RS is lying about all his top-level running and climbing achievements, then he's taking money away from more deserving athletes.
Sam Smiths on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to Shani:
Not sure how this debate got onto Rich Simpson but my feeling is that the 'evidence' rule applies to climbing as well as any other sport but i must say that in some ways it's even easier to proof you did something in climbing all you have to do is name your belayers - because unless there's a grand conspiricy (LOL) then they'll say what's what. And for someone who's done some of the most inspirational routes of a generation:

"Since starting climbing 4 years ago I have climbed many routes and boulders, my highlights been, Hubble 8c+ Liquid Amber 8c/8c+, Azincourt 8c, Evolution 8c, le Minimum 8c, Maginot Line 8c, Powerplay 8c, Chouca 8A+ Flash, Malcs Start font 8B, 8Ball Font 8B, Superman Font 8B, Pool of Bethesda Font 8a+ amongst other stuff." From Wild Country site...

I think this'll be a pretty easy thing as no-one's gonna forget belaying him. And if a guy that's done some of the state of the art routes cannot do this i'd be pretty bloody amazed...I for one cannot see how he'd have got by for such a long time if it wasn't true.

And also why would reputable companise like Scarpa and Wild Country bother to sponsor him if they didn't know the score...they use him to flog their kit and they're not gonna do that if he's a liar...

I'm pretty certain he'll prove it all...
Sam Smiths on 20 Oct 2010
In reply to ali k: I agree with Ali k in princple but i'm sure he'll proof it all but just out of interest anyone chased up his boxing??

"Having completed my goals in running (sub 2:30 marathon and sub four minute mile), and achieving a respectable Boxing record (16 wins with no losses) I have decided to return to climbing to further pursue my ambitions." Scarpa website Blog...4.2.10

Being bored I googled Rich Simpson boxing and got absolutely zip...i googled Rich Simpson boxing sheffield and got zip...

Must admit getting me slightly pertubed...must be a boxer out there...
The New NickB - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Sam Smiths:

It is strange that no boxing records seem to google under the names Rich or Richard Simpson.

P.S. Cheers for the cheap beer.
bowls - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to fred99:

I also concur with this statement. There are a couple of points I would like to make (I have not read the full post so forgive me if I miss anything out).

1.) There are in this modern day very few mile races run in the UK

2.) Any Pacemaker entered into a race is usually entered as a runner, so if thus finishes is an official competitor and thus would have an official result

3.) Most of the top times are set in British Milers Club Meets. Even then, the 1500m is usually run. I suggest that if the claimant claims it was run in 2008 then it is false.

powerof10 is not fully complete (I have a few performances missing) but it is pretty accurate.

On a side note, the 4 minute mile is not that impressive. Having run on the US collegiate system. a dozen or so athletes in college (some who never run post-college achieve this standard on an indoor track). Again as a previous post of mine mentions, it is worth about a 3:42 to 3:43 1500m, which around 10-20 runners in the UK will achieve each year, the mile is just not run very often.

One thing that is never properly taken into account is that Sir Roger Bannisters first sub 4 min mile was run on a cinder track, a damp cinder track at that. This has to be worth a second a lap at least in my book, I think it is a fair claim to say that if Bannister had done his run in modern day spikes on a modern tartan track he would have run 3:53 to 3:54..

Thoughts??
Banned User 77 - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to bowls:
> (In reply to fred99)
>
>
> powerof10 is not fully complete (I have a few performances missing) but it is pretty accurate.
>
>

No, but you'd at least expect a profile. That's the thing I find most strange in all of this.
Shani - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Sam Smiths:
> (In reply to Shani)
> Not sure how this debate got onto Rich Simpson...

An easy one to answer.

On Friday 15th Oct 2010 Phil Payne pointed out a UKC news item dated Sep 2008 featuring an extract from a blog where RS claimed to have run a 4MM and had ambitions to run a 2:30 marathon.

On Saturday 16th Oct 2010 Mr Fuller posted a link to the Scarpa site where RS claimed to have achieved a sub 2:30 marathon (the post is dated 4 Feb 2010).

On Monday 18th Oct, I posted the following "Anyone know which marathon RS did in 2hr 30? Incredible claims require incredible proofs and all that."

I think it might be tactful/appropriate to leave this topic alone for a while (and that of his boxing and climbing achievements/belayers), until RS himself is made aware of this situation and given the opportunity to respond. This is a man's career and reputation we are dealing with.
Stash - on 21 Oct 2010


Leave the man alone for goodness sake, everyone thinks their bleedin Hercule Poirot trying to solve the next big climbing issue.

Get to the wall or put this energy to some "good" use rather than trying out all your half baked conspiracy theories!
Monk - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Stash:

This thread is quite amusing, considering the sh*t Mr Simpson stirred about Ben Heason. I seem to remember that Rich swore off internet forums after that particular debate, so he may well not be along to defend himself anytime soon.
Jim Hamilton - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Stash:

are you a friend of his ?
Stash - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Jim Hamilton:

No i've never met the man.

Personally i find it quite amusing how the noose has already been thrown over the branch.

Innocent until proven guilty?
Banned User 77 - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Stash: I think you are being overly sensitive. I admit it's not overly nice being examined but if you make claims that you ran a X time, people will want verification. That's normal with running these days. In climbing their is a much bigger element of trust.

I don't think anyone has, or very few anyway, said he didn't do it, but personally until I see the results I'll take it as 'possibly'..
Stash - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to IainRUK:

I agree with pretty much what you have said.

Apart from me being over sensitive. just the usual armchair jury gets me laughing
Gorrilla on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Monk:
> (In reply to Stash)
>
> This thread is quite amusing, considering the sh*t Mr Simpson stirred about Ben Heason. I seem to remember that Rich swore off internet forums after that particular debate, so he may well not be along to defend himself anytime soon.

Quite.
There has always been a lot of mysterious unwitnessed RS ascents, which is quite ironic considering the Ben Heason buisness.

Phil Payne - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Gorilla:

I really wish that I hadn't mentioned Rich Simpson in this thread in the first place. The only reason I did was because I remember reading that article and being amazed that someone could achieve a 4min mile, 2h30 marathon and climb 9a. I've never for a second doubted his achievements and I've got no reason to question them.

I'm not sure that the bashing he is getting here is entirely fair of justified, so I have contacted a friend of his to let Rich know what's being said about him, so that he at least knows about this thread and can have a chance to reply.
Jim Houghton - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley: Just to add some witnessed things into the melting pot:

Simpson got pretty much nothing at GCSE at a pretty poor school in Redditch (now closed). Then, after action directe, decided he wanted to go to university, worked solidly on his own every day in a library and got a string of A's at A-level and has just started at Cambridge.

He did 6:25 on his first ever 2k on a rowing machine, a decent time for a guy of his weight on the GB national team.

The guy doesn't do things by halves and certainly doesn't do them to prove himself to others. It would seem to follow entirely that he could have done these various running achievements without feeling the need to provide evidence.
Jim Hamilton - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Jim Houghton:
>> He did 6:25 on his first ever 2k on a rowing machine, a decent time for a guy of his weight on the GB national team.
>
have you got any proof about this latest claim ?!
MJ - on 21 Oct 2010
I've heard he's going to be the new Stig.
Shani - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Phil Payne:
> (In reply to Gorilla)
>
> I remember reading that article and being amazed that someone could achieve a 4min mile, 2h30 marathon and climb 9a.

That is what amazed me. If true, then this is phenomenal and very inspiring.
Phil Payne - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Jim Hamilton:
> (In reply to Jim Houghton)
> >> He did 6:25 on his first ever 2k on a rowing machine, a decent time for a guy of his weight on the GB national team.
> [...]
> have you got any proof about this latest claim ?!

He said he witnessed it!
The New NickB - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Jim Houghton:

I don't think there is any doubt that Rich Simpson is a talented climber, a fine athlete in general and a very determined person.

He is making some very, very impressive claims which help build his commercial profile, claims that should be pretty easy to substantiate, when they are not substantiated people will always ask questions. Given the questions he posed about Ben Heason, he should be very aware of this issue.

Jim Hamilton - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Phil Payne:
> (In reply to Jim Hamilton)
> [...]
>
> He said he witnessed it!

i'm being pedantic i know, but he doesn't actually say that
Hat Dude on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Shani:

He's just following a great british tradition ;0)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_the_Wonder_Athlete
ali k on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to The New NickB:

> I don't think there is any doubt that Rich Simpson is a talented climber, a fine athlete in general and a very determined person.
Agreed.

> He is making some very, very impressive claims which help build his commercial profile, claims that should be pretty easy to substantiate, when they are not substantiated people will always ask questions.
Agreed. Which is what has prompted the replies on this thread.

> Given the questions he posed about Ben Heason, he should be very aware of this issue.
I believe (although I could be wrong on this) that Rich's accusations about Ben were in fact prompted by the fact that Ben doubted whether Rich had climbed Action Direct. Given that Rich went out to the Frankenjura with Ben (along with Chris Doyle) on that trip with the primary aim of him ticking AD, yet on the actual ascent he was apparently belayed by an unknown person after going off to the crag on his own, makes me (and obviously Ben at the time) a little suspicious.
Niek - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to ali k: There's a video of him doing AD here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=49723
dave657 on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Beowulf:

It's not. Have you read the report?
Monk - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Beowulf:
> (In reply to ali k) There's a video of him doing AD here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=49723

And from that same page "Chris would also like to point out that the ascent captured on this film is an edited ascent and not the actual redpoint of the route."
Adam Long - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Jim Houghton:
> Just to add some witnessed things into the melting pot:

> He did 6:25 on his first ever 2k on a rowing machine, a decent time for a guy of his weight on the GB national team.

Assuming he's under 75kg, which I think he is, that would rank him 4th in Britain. He would have won the last indoor championships by a massive ten seconds - even more remarkable given he isn't that tall, and all on his first attempt! Incredible!

http://concept2.co.uk/birc/results_details?year=2009&event=B1

Banned User 77 - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to The New NickB: he's clearly a class athlete. I don't know too much about miling, but could easily believe he could run a sub 2:30 marathon. TBH I'd be surprised if these claims couldn't be backed up because in this day and age race results are so readily available it would come out and some time.
Gorrilla on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to wilding:
> (In reply to Mr Plow)
>
> Well the original article says that he intends to do the marathon
>
> "Just a 2.30 marathon to go now, which I hope to do in New York this November."
>
> Obviously, it didn't happen. no big deal.

No Check the blog:
Having completed my goals in running (sub 2:30 marathon and sub four minute mile), and achieving a respectable Boxing record (16 wins with no losses) I have decided to return to climbing to further pursue my ambitions

No big deal

Steve John B - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Jim Houghton:
> (In reply to Tom Ripley) Just to add some witnessed things into the melting pot:
>
> ...worked solidly on his own every day in a library

Witnessed by who exactly? Did he check in with the librarian? Evidence please.
Stash - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Steve John B:

After searching government data bases and all European library records i find no evidence to support this claim that he is even literate!

Niek - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to dave657: Ah yes!
Steve John B - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Stash: Well he did get into Cambridge (unless he's done an Archer which I'm not going to suggest even as a joke) so he's obviously smarter than the average bear.
Stash - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Steve John B:

I was joking.

Surprised someone hasn't been following him to disprove any claims he makes about his food shopping habits!
Castleman - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Adam Long:
>
> Assuming he's under 75kg, which I think he is, that would rank him 4th in Britain. He would have won the last indoor championships by a massive ten seconds - even more remarkable given he isn't that tall, and all on his first attempt! Incredible!
>
> http://concept2.co.uk/birc/results_details?year=2009&event=B1

Most competitive rowers don't enter the BIRC and there are plenty that are as fast or faster than the results here. E.g. I could row a 6:30 at 76kg quite a few years ago as part of my training and had nothing on the real lightweights at my club.
Steve John B - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Stash: I know you were joking! I didn't think a 'wink' was needed.

Funny you should mention the food shopping though, Chris Bonington told me he saw him in KFC last week...
Adam Long - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Castleman:

Sure, but you have to admit doing 6.25 at a fighting weight of 64kg, on his first attempt ever, is unbelievably good.
Stash - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Steve John B:

I thought Bonners was in an illegal poker tournament with Danny dyer and the Krays last week?
fred99 - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to bowls:
> (In reply to fred99)
>

> Thoughts??

1) Yes, a matter pointed out by my contact, apparently none at Alexander Stadium in 2008.
2) Correct, the rules state that if anyone not entered in the race pacemakes, then those athletes paced are disqualified.
3) The BMC are the usual source - if I could be bothered I'd phone Mike Downes, but I believe it would be a complete waste of time.

The sub-4 minute mile should be capable of being run more often, but without the races, it won't happen.

As for the surfaces, I'm not sure that they make a great deal of difference, as there would only be a problem if your foot were to slip - not exactly a problem at the mile. I certainly never found any problem running at the same pace on different surfaces, and in my time we could race on tartan (rubber) one week, redgras (ash) the next, then cinders, and even grass occasionally. The main problem is the weather, as rain affects all those except rubber. It's the reliability that is affected. With good weather, and also correct drainage, all surfaces are pretty well the same (and I ran the Steeplechase mainly). The only exception is indoors, where it's the frequency and tightness of the bends where there is a problem.
fred99 - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to IainRUK:
> (In reply to Stash) I think you are being overly sensitive. I admit it's not overly nice being examined but if you make claims that you ran a X time, people will want verification. That's normal with running these days. In climbing their is a much bigger element of trust.
>
> I don't think anyone has, or very few anyway, said he didn't do it, but personally until I see the results I'll take it as 'possibly'..

Iain,
I'm one of the "few" who says he hasn't done it - the mile at least.
I've just been on the phone to another mate of mine - a senior official/coach at his local club - she'd never heard of him. That now makes the 2 most knowledgeable persons in the area he lives in, who are responsible for the coaching and meeting organsations not having heard of his name.
Considering he claimed to have finished a mile in 3:58, having pacemade, and then being overtaken by the rest (?) of the field in a time FASTER than the fastest oficially recorded by a briton that year.
And what happened to all the others in the race ?
If I'd run 3:54 - 3:57 and been ignored, I'd be complaining like mad.

There won't be any "results" shown - I've already checked and found that there wasn't any such race.

I repeat - he's a liar regarding the mile, and so what other lies has he come out with to support his Walter Mitty existence.
Shani - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to ali k:
> (In reply to The New NickB)
> I believe (although I could be wrong on this) that Rich's accusations about Ben were in fact prompted by the fact that Ben doubted whether Rich had climbed Action Direct. Given that Rich went out to the Frankenjura with Ben (along with Chris Doyle) on that trip with the primary aim of him ticking AD, yet on the actual ascent he was apparently belayed by an unknown person after going off to the crag on his own, makes me (and obviously Ben at the time) a little suspicious.

"...belayed by an unknown person..."! Bloody Hell. I will be honest ali - I don't believe YOU! Surely this cannot be correct?

My initial thoughts (IF YOUR SUMMARY ABOVE IS ACCURATE):

1) A climber did the belaying. Now as climber, wandering around the Frankenjura and beneath AD in particular (with his harness, and I guess, on his own), surely it cannot be lost on said climber, the significance of belaying a hot-shot Brit on such an esteemed route? I know that if I had held anyone's ropes on AD, I'd tell the world about it. So surely this belayer has been identified?

2) A part-climber did the belaying (by which I mean someone who could belay but wasn't aware of the route). So RS must go climbing with a spare harness (that happened to fit the belayer). Plausible? Could you go to the Frankenjura and NOT know about AD? Would this explain why said belayer has not come forwards or told his mates about this momentous achievement. Wouldn't RS inform his belayer about the route's history?

3) A non-climber belayed RS. So again RS must climb with a spare harness that happened to fit. Or have taught a novice about usng a hitch to belay for the first time. Would YOU trust a learner to belay you on your hardest route?

I am sure there are other scenarios. Currently I am pissing myself laughing at several climbing companies. I hope that ali's post above is idle conjecture for the credibility of climbing.
Rob15 - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Shani: Is there not a video of him on action directe though??
Shani - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Rob15:
> (In reply to Shani) Is there not a video of him on action directe though?

I hope so, and more. I reckon the mods should pull this thread and approach RS directly about its contents.
wilding - on 21 Oct 2010
Stash - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Shani:

what when we he hasn't been hung drawn and quartered?

I am not ashamed to say i would be most disappointed if he has lied about all his achievements.

Shani - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to Stash:
> (In reply to Shani)
>
> what when we he hasn't been hung drawn and quartered?

Eh?

> I am not ashamed to say i would be most disappointed if he has lied about all his achievements.

Me to. And TBH, if he just settled the running-oriented questions above, I'd be reasonably happy with most of his claims (not of the AD ascent though, if Ali's comments are in any way accurate).

Still, RS doesn't give a fook about me or my opinion - so I am not expecting him to show up any time soon.
MG - on 21 Oct 2010
All right, I am curious now even though I had never heard of this guy before this thread. Am I right in thinking that he claims (or has had claimed on his behalf) a 4 minute mile, a 2.30 marathon, rowing a 6.35 2k, and some barely repeated climbs and there is no direct evidence for ANY of it?
Shani - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to MG:
> All right, I am curious now even though I had never heard of this guy before this thread. Am I right in thinking that he claims (or has had claimed on his behalf) a 4 minute mile, a 2.30 marathon, rowing a 6.35 2k, and some barely repeated climbs and there is no direct evidence for ANY of it?

Don't forget the boxing...
Yanis Nayu - on 21 Oct 2010
In reply to MG: He's got a fit bird. I can vouch for that.
Castleman - on 22 Oct 2010
In reply to Adam Long:
> (In reply to Castleman)
>
> Sure, but you have to admit doing 6.25 at a fighting weight of 64kg, on his first attempt ever, is unbelievably good.

Agreed - I didn't realise he was that light. Then again, I know of a witnessed 6.10 first attempt at a 2k from a rugby monster!
roddersm - on 22 Oct 2010
In reply to MG:
> All right, I am curious now even though I had never heard of this guy before this thread. Am I right in thinking that he claims (or has had claimed on his behalf) a 4 minute mile, a 2.30 marathon, rowing a 6.35 2k, and some barely repeated climbs and there is no direct evidence for ANY of it?

Look this is getting ridiculous here. I don't know Richard Simpson but I do know he has climbed and trained with many of britains best climbers including steve mcclure and ben moon. If he was lying about his climbing achievements I would think he'd have been found out long ago. There is numerous videos on the web of him doing very hard things so his ability to climb the things he has said are beyond doubt. I'm sure there is plenty of evidence for many of his ascents.

It's very odd that theres no record of his marathon running or boxing results on the web but that doesn't mean its not true.

If people doubt some of his claims then why not contact him directly or his sponsors for clarification, rather than speculating on here if he is a lier or not.
The New NickB - on 22 Oct 2010
In reply to roddersm:

There is absolutely no doubt that he is a very talented climber and I don't know enough about sport climbing in general and Rich Simpson's list of ascents in particular to question any of it. I do know a bit about running though and it is definately very strange that he does not have any sort of web presence to back claims, nothing on his boxing either.
In reply to All: This topic has been archived.

There have been some very serious accusations made, and also some speculation.

I have archived this thread for now, so that it will not accept further replies, until we (The UKC Team) have discussed it further.

Thanks,

Happy climbing.

Jack

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.