UKC

Planning to run the Welsh 3000s in July - been training all year etc.; walked / ran most of it before so feeling prepared. Went for some final reccy walks this weekend and have a couple of questions on specific bits of the route, if anyone with experience could advise would be hugely appreciated!

PS - I'll be doing it South to North, walking up the Pyg track to Snowdon then back along Crib Goch and down to the road. I'll be using a Fenix 6x for navigation with talky toaster maps (which are pretty detailed).

1. Descending Crib Goch - I had planning to go along the North ridge (and trialled this this weekend, it was fine) but have just seen in Finlay Wild's FKT he doubles back from the summit of Crib Goch and descends from Bwlch Coch down a scree slope and past Llyn Glas (his route then meets up with the one I took along the North ridge). Can anyone say what this path is like down from Bwlch Coch? I assume it's only as bad as the North ridge scree slope, so quite do-able? I've only found one reference to the path on the internet, on a "Snowdon Girdle" walk, and that looked ok. There is no path here on OS maps but there is on Open Street maps.

2. Once down to the road after this descent, is it standard practice to just run down the actual road? I know there will be some cars (I'll be at this point by about 6-7:30am on a weekday in July).

3. Tryfan descent - I had planned to reccy the West gully descent (from the summit) but the weather wasn't great so decided to leave it. Again, this "path" is on Open Street maps but not OS maps. It looks like a fairly clear path down on satellite imagery and the bottom of the gully links up to a fairly well defined path on the pictures. What is this descent like? Is it relatively easy to find at the top of Tryfan? 

4. Ascending Pen Yr Ole Wen from Ogwen Cottage. We did reccy this section but ascended from the other side of the lake, from Gwern Gof Uchaf campsite, so ascending the peak from the East rather than the South. The route I plan to take on the day would be to ascend from Ogwen cottage. What's this 'path' like? Is it relatively easy to find at the bottom near the lake? I know it looks like a slog but at least it'll be the last slog!!! On Finlay's FKT route on Strava it looks like he picks a path up a few hundred metres up the road from the end of the lake.

Hugely appreciate any advice anyone can give!! I feel (am) prepared but always would appreciate any more insight.

Hi Elliot,

Here's an attempt to answer some of your questions, based on back when I last did it.

1. My suggestion here is to go with what you know, and if the North Ridge works for you, that's what's best. Funnily enough when I did it I decided to do it the way you've described Finlay doing it, as that's what Colin Donnelly did, but I remember my line being quite inefficient, as I hadn't recceyed it (rookie error...). Maybe it's quicker if you have, but if you haven't I'd say to avoid.

2. I ran down the road, and I suspect that's what others do too, although there is a much better path up/down The Pass than there was back when I did it. Maybe someone else can provide you with more up to date info?

3. It's pretty easy to find, insofar as it's the first major gully you come to. It's initially pretty steep/scrambly/unrunnable, but soon opens out into a series of stone pitched steps (which are very obvious).

4. That way up Pen yr Ole Wen is indeed a slog, but (weirdly) it's one I've always enjoyed. The path - much like you say - starts just after the bridge/river and is pretty obvious. After that it's best just to switch your brain off and follow the obvious line. Once you're on top of the Carneddau it all becomes much more runnable again (which may or may not turn out to be a good thing).

Only other piece of advice I have, which is a mistake I made (but sounds like you've got covered) is to take it easy on your way up Snowdon. I ran up from Llanberis, which is where I was living at the time, but in doing so added a whole hour of ascent into my legs before the stopwatch had even started. Retrospectively this was a foolish decision...

Good luck (and have fun)!! 

It's impossible to micromanage a day of that size, develop the skills and the fitness and trust in them.

We did it once in descent going NS on a failed W3000s attempt. This is where it failed. I remember it as a steep, sketchy, heather ridden non-path of a path. The following year we descended via the other way to the east end of the lake and it was much easier.

When I did it a few years back we:

1. Went up Crib Goch via the ridge, taking in the summit, Carnedd Ugain and then Snowdon, then descended to Cwm Glas Bach via the LLanberis path. If I remember correctly, there's a stile in the fence around Cloggy station and you can descend over pretty open ground. there's no real path but it's pretty steady going over grass and heather. 

2. I seem to remember managing to descend almost into the Nant Peris car park, so didn't go along the road at all! There's certainly no real risk of having to run along the road for any great distance if you don't want to.

3. The descent off Tryfan is pretty obvious and well trodden. It's steep but pretty clear. If the weather's bad you'll need to take care to find it but it's not hidden or anything. 

4. Going up Pen Yr Ole Wen, there's a farm track at the top, eastern, end of the lake. Again, pretty obvious and clear and then the paths are quite straight forward. The track follows the line of Afon Lloer if you look at the map.

All in all, the nav isn't difficult if the weather's good. the only real issues are getting up Y garn and deciding whether you want slow and steady or short and painful! The paths on the ground are all quite distinct except for the Snowdon descent but that's pretty much a straight down the side of the mountain job. 

Hope you have a good day out!

Note to self....type faster!

Have you recced the bit from Vaynol to Elidir Fawr? When I went for a look it seemed horribly boggy and pathless so wondered if there is a better route than following the valley floor?

hi - thanks for asking - yes I walked this bit last year and it seemed ok (that was in May, I'll be running it in July), just a very long slog but wasn't overly boggy.

So that was following the Dudodyn path shown on the OS map? Once you’d crossed the river did you find a path as I couldn’t?

1. Here's a photo of the Bwlch Coch "path". Loose scree, but fine if you take care.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mikepeacock/50040090887/in/datetaken-public/
From Cwm Uchaf I would probably follow the stream east of the Llyn Glas outflow. Lower down there is a path on its left side (looking down - visible on aerial imagery) which takes you down to the Afon Gennog and the main Cwm Glas path.

4. As Rob says, the Pen yr Ole Wen path from Ogwen is a steep slog but shouldn't cause you any issues in ascent. It is easier to go off route in descent though, as mbh's experience shows.

I had turned off just left of where your screen shot shows, across the footbridge marked on the OS map, then up the path you can see cutting through the top left corner of your image. It seemed fine when I did it last year.

Do you plan to do Yr Elen first via the contouring path, or Llewellyn then Yr Elen then cut the corner on return? I remember 30-odd years ago the contour path was easy to follow, 3 years ago it was difficult (although going the other way) to keep to any path. We chose to do Llewellyn first on our successful attempt.

On Tryfan, an early attempt failed in the West gully as I was cramping up badly and not coping with the roughness of the rocks/scree - but it was easy to find! On our successful round we reversed to Bwlch Tryfan nearly and jogged down the Miners path, slower but easier, and used the eastern ascent of Pen yr Ole Wen. Our emphasis was on getting round rather than being fast..

Thank you, that’s good to know. I had considered this path but the book I was using describes following the valley floor, I will investigate (although it looks the sort of route you would only want to do once!)

Well we reccy'd part of this area on Friday walking in the evening (v. windy and rainy!!!), my plan was to do the first of your options, the contour path to Yr Elen then cut back to Llewellyn second. I didn't actually walk the contour path but I could clearly see it, and where it forked from the main path up to Llewellyn, it looked ok... (fingers crossed!)

Can anyone say what this path is like down from Bwlch Coch?

It is fine but you may prefer to stick with what you know

 is it standard practice to just run down the actual road?

Road is good if not too busy, it gets quite narrow, but there are sections of track / boardwalk alongside the road now making it a nicer experience

What's this 'path' like? Is it relatively easy to find at the bottom near the lake?

Very easy to find, stile just over bridge. Easy to follow track up but quite a slog. 

Enjoy

1. North Ridge for me, other one might one of those 'faster if you're talented'. I'm not. That said after the north ridge spits you west the best route wasn't super obvious to me

2. There's a reasonable amount of path, gates a bit slower.

3. Not too far from the trig, if you find the top it should be obvious, might be people on the day.

4. Direct is shorter but fairly relentless. Prefer the looping E ridge and links fairly nicely from 3 above with less tarmac.

5. Nice food!

Elliot, my thoughts below

1.) The route from Bwlch Coch is fine, just some steep rough scree.   I think the most important matters on this route are 

a.) If coming off the North Ridge identify the best scree line to come down as going to early the scree isn't very runnable or pleasant.

b.) Whichever route be clear on the way down from Llyn Glas as taking the wrong line will cost you time

2.) Just take the road and take care.  There isn't much of an option other than the walkways further down the road which aren't in a great state of repair

3.) West Gully is fine, just can be slippy and a bit loose when wet.  You may want to consider heading directly North to the A5 after the inital descent down West Gully and then either take the SE ridge up Pen Yr Ole Wen or run down the road to Ogwen Cottage

4 ) It is obvious across the road from the cottage.  It is a slog but then most of the hard work in terms of ascending is done!

Good luck!

I've done it four times and I've come to prefer this option: start up Crib Goch, then Snowdon. Descend the rail tracks until the point they swing left. Continue straight, away from the tracks, on a thin path, over the summit of Llechog to a 610 spot height you can see on the OS. There’s a stile right there, indicating the start of the descent. It's steep obviously, but comfortable and takes you to the right spot for your next ascent.

I've never had a problem with this, but just take care to get your initial line right from the summit. You'll then pick up a thin path on the ground. From memory, you're aiming for Ogwen Cottage almost from the top.

If you veer northwards while descending 3. to bring you to the eastern end of Llyn Ogwen, then I much prefer the east ridge line up PYW. The direct line is a bit much for me at this stage!

I always find the yomp up from Devil's Kitchen mentally the hardest, for some reason. After then, I feel I've broken the back of the nastiest ascents!

Thanks for the detailed response - really helpful, on your route for 1. - I actually did that last year when me and a friend did the first 2/3rds (ish) of the W3K. Went from PyP to the campsite at the bottom of Tryfan (having done Tryfan as well). Was a killer day but I just didn't get on with that descent from Snowdon, it just felt so far, so steep, so grassy, so wet!

I really preferred the one down from the N. Ridge of Crib Goch (though I can't say I loved the downwards scrambling to get to Crib Goch in the first place!! We made it down from the bottom of the scree slope N. Ridge of Crib Goch to the road in about 50 minutes but that was walking and with a stop for food. 

I like the look of your Snowdon variant - we used (30 years ago) to bale out at Clogwyn station and descend Cwm Glas Bach, very steep grass initially, and very tiring if you do it in reverse - your way looks more runnable and avoids the road. Agree about the flog up Glyder Fawr as well! The only reason to do Snowdon first that I can see is if you want to compare your time with the record, or get an official certificate, Crib Goch is much better in ascent.

Cheers!

Re: your no 1 - Google maps 3D shows the zig-zag path coming off point 610 quite clearly.

As Pete says, if you're not bothered about record times or doing it in the traditional S-N order then that looks like a good alternative.

One tip for easily locating the west gully is to face NW from Adam and eve and walk in that direction... that shld take you straight to the top of the gully. Pretty failsafe in any weather... Good luck!