UKC

This summer I’m going to be doing a lot of ridge lines and was wondering if anybody has some good tips on staying hydrated for the longer ones e.g Ring of Steall?

I don’t fancy having to carry 4L of water over lots of elevation.

Hydration tablets added to water makes a big difference.

The ring of steall loop is only 10 miles so 1 to 2 litres should be sufficient for that.

There is a handy lochin once you drop off Stob Ban which is spring fed just before the devils ridge out and back.

Failing that take a straw for puddles on ridges!

Wait for a rainy day and keep your mouth open

Look on the map and then on the ground; there will usually be places where you can drop off and find water without going too far except in very dry spells. 

4 mugs of tea for breakfast 

Couple pints when you get back...

I have found that for longer days over the warmer months, it is the hydration in the days before that helps.. 
I usually have a 2 1/2 litre full hydration bladder and a 750ml bottle of isotonic drink during a full summer mountain day. 16-18 mile, 4-5k ft ascent etc... 
I also have an MSR Trailshot, so if I know Im passing a good source... I can use that and lighten the load!.. 
(youll need a tablet in the new water if not boiling up as it removes bacteria, but not viruses).  

Pick up a sawyer mini water filter.  Filters bacteria and viruses.  Have used mine in the UK and abroad.  Great when wild camping.  These days a I fill up at the last obvious stream before you hit the top.  The best way to squeeze the bag is to roll from the top downward, this is faster and reduces the chance of the bag splitting (the main complaint if you read reviews).  Mine is the original bag.
Search fleaby for "sawyer mini water filter" and select uk only in the filters.

I dont 'think' it removes viruses... 

"The Sawyer Squeeze Filter (and Sawyer Mini) both eliminate protozoa and bacteria. But they don’t eliminate viruses, chemicals, pesticides, or heavy metals. And they don’t improve the taste or odor of the water. The Sawyer S2 eliminates all of these with the exception of heavy metals. (You have to upgrade to the S3 for heavy metal removal.) On the plus side, the Sawyer Squeeze has a much longer useful life, is much lighter, and costs less than the S2."

From 
https://www.adventurealan.com/review-sawyer-select-s2-water-purifier-fast-e...

When I was researching water stuff - to lighten the load on multi day trips etc, I found it all a bit confusing... So I may be wrong, but the general view is that most filters are great... but then need to be either boiled or a chemical used to kill any viruses. 
On multiday trips - I'll boil... but on single days - I'll use a tablet and then improve the taste with some orange flavour! 

Are you are fell running this or walking? 

If you stick to the ridge route, in the unlikely event it'll be roasting day (following prolonged dry) there's no source of water on that route until you're most of the way round. A purification tablet is the lightest way to make water drinkable (wait the 30 minutes for it to work, or whatever the instructions say)  it won't be super tasty but if you're gasping it'll be plenty good enough.

Unless it's a total scorcher, 4 litres sounds too much? I'd have thought 2 litres? but your mileage may vary ("YMMV")

I aim for 1 litre per hour or so, in hot weather and less in cooler weather.  I try and avoid the hot weather though.  So that’s a 3L camelbak and a couple of soft flasks.  I’ve found electrolytes help a little.

This came about after a number of incidents of running out and getting a bit delirious.  

I remember a mate running out on a hot day in the Lakes.  He was getting worse and worse until he was stumbling all over the place and talking gibberish.  I ran out shortly after.  The solution was jumping in every stream, or bog we could find.  Soaking a buff and sticking it around my neck at every opportunity really helped.

The fitter you are the less water you'll need as you won't be sweating buckets.
2 ltrs seems a lot to me .  In central Spain in mid summer I can just about manage on 1 ltr, if I'm just hill walking and not carrying much in the way of kit.

Doesn't seem a lot for a longish hot day. The extra weight to stay adequately hydrated is always worth it - not something to skimp on.

Do you use a hydration bladder? I found I needed less water since getting one. Because I take a lot of sips as I feel thirsty and without having to stop, I didn't wait until I was gasping, and then stop, and glug down loads. More efficient and more pleasant as you never really get all that thirsty and you can walk to a rhythm rather than needing to break to get out a water bottle. 

David

Exactly, it's only a half day so you can rehydrate back in a Fort Bill cafe at lunch time. 

Indeed, sweat management, dress light going up and zip up once on main on the ridge line. If you don't lose it, you don't need to replace it. 

Assuming you are walking rather than running there are a lot of strategies you can use, many of which have been mentioned above. Do bear in mind though that everyone is different and what works for one person may not work for another, there are also other potential health factors that can come into play...

- If you find yourself getting overtired or not recovering ( a lot may depend on personal fitness here ) have a lighter day or even a rest between what you regard as longer days.

- Hydrate well the day (s) before and the morning of your big day. Ensure you have the right food that works for you too - avoid foods that make you thirsty. Have drink and appropriate snack food ready at the end of your walk / scramble / day. Plan to hydrate and eat well as soon after your walk as practical - chocolate milk shake suits many people. Whilst cold drinks seem like an obvious choice and are lovely an excess of cold liquid often leads to peeing more rather than hydrating. Sometimes warm or body temperature drinks are more likely to be absorbed. Similarly, consider drinks your body can 'absorb' more readily. For example  some people use a weak squash sometimes with a little extra salt added.

- Wear the right clothing ( with carried options ) and attempt to keep cool / not to overheat. Depending on your fitness level and what you are choosing to achieve choose a pace you can maintain without stopping ( think alpine plod here ) unless of course you really want to push yourself.

- Take food / snacks that contain moisture rather than foods that 'dry' you out further. 

- Any long day in the hills will lead to dehydration and it is unlikely anyone would want to carry the amount of water required to stay fully hydrated. Avail yourself of opportunities to drink, or better sip, on your journey - check the map out to see if there are any obvious 'filling' stations. Sometimes a straw is very useful. Obviously bear in mind personal health and hygiene: Touch wood I've never had a problem drinking from higher streams in the UK yet but some people would choose to take filters / tablets etc.

- As you gain experience you are likely to find that you can gradually reduce the amount of drink you require  without causing any signs beyond being thirsty. Perhaps take whatever you normally take with you to begin with but gradually try to drink less on your walks so you end with some drink to spare. When you know your comfort and safety margins you can start reducing the amount you carry as appropriate for the route / terrain / weather. If you are with others monitor each other for the signs and symptoms of dehydration as have been mentioned by one respondee. If alone monitor yourself, you don't want to be at the stumbling and gibberish stage ( unless perhaps at the pub afterwards ). 

- On a personal level, I usually find one to two litres will see me through most big hill days in the UK or Alps.

Hope something here helps...

I think I meant to type "4 ltrs seems a lot to me. - which is what the OP originally stated.

Sorry but that sounds like rubbish to me.....

Yes, but no... if you're hill fit, you can achieve the classic naismiths pace or better all day with sounding like a steam train, or on a straight up hill slogs do a minute/contour, then provided you don't over dress you won't be working so hard, over heating, sweating etc... of anyone who spends a lot of time in the outdoors instructing or leading, I bet almost without exception every climbing, walking, caving, skiing, mtb leader has at least one layer more on than their clients, as they just aren't generating the heat.

Note, when it's very cold you can still lose moisture through your breath regardless of fitness.  

Hmmmm, yet to be convinced there is a direct correlation between fitness and sweat levels.

The harder you work, the more heat you generate, then it comes down to sweat management and how fast you choose to go. If you're mega fit and thrash it with too many layers on you'll still generate excess heat, excess heat is what stimulates the body's cooling system.

It really is simple.  The fitter you are the less you sweat.  

I live on a hill.  I see  unfit tourists, (and some of the other locals), puffing and huffing up the hill.  and in summer sweating as they go.  Its can be quite entertaining.

In summer I carry a rucksack weighting  5kg.  I rarely get soaked in sweat.  It is simple biology.  The fitter you are the less you sweat so you are not loosing as much liquid as someone whose sweating buckets.   

I'm with you here. I've often used the sweat level as a measure of my own fitness. One test I use is to lick my wrists. When I am unfit, the sweat deposits taste quite salty and unpleasant, whereas when I'm really fit the sweat deposits are much less and almost tasteless. We are a little bit spoilt in the UK, because it hardly ever gets hot, so we can get by with one or two litres a day, at the most, even in the summer. (But I still take, even in the winter, just to go walking in very little hills, about half a litre of water as a precaution, but hardly ever need it.). Whereas in places like Arabia, or even California, say, one may need 5 litres per day (time) in the height of the summer.

Perhaps you'd like to explain why you think that a fit person sweats the same amount as an unfit person doing the same walk or run with the same amount of kit?

If the fit person and the unfit person are going at the same pace, then yes, I’d expect to the unfit person to sweat the most because they are working harder, relative to their limit.

However, fitter people tend to just move faster.  So a fitter person moving faster might easily sweat as much as slower person going slower.

Different people sweat different amounts.

How about avoiding caffeine which is a diuretic?

Maybe don't choose to quite on the day of the hike however.

If you are fully hydrated when you set-off, then 2L should be enough for up to 10-12 hours. That said, having some purification tablets with you is a good idea. 

As others have said, 4 litres for the Ring of Steall seems like a lot to me.

I usually carry a 1 litre flask and refill from streams as I go (being sensible about where I take it from of course). I am pretty sure that's all I took last time I did the Ring.

If it's particularly hot, or a look at a map gives me concerns about water, I might take 2 litres. 

I will make sure I am well-hydrated before I start, and also leave something to drink in the car for when I finish. As someone else said, having a sip frequently so that you don't allow yourself to get thirsty is more effective than walking until your mouth is dry and then glugging it all down.

Go somewhere hot and go running-  Go home and lose gain 5 kilos and try again.  The difference will be brutally obvious.  I'm not kidding.  Heat loss is not helped by an extra layer of insulation

How much you sweat is down to your genetics.

I sweat loads and I’m faster on the hill than my (less sweaty) mates so your theory can go take a sweaty hike…!

One reference (of many):

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/why-do-you-sweat-more-as-you-gain-fitnes...

I didn't say there were no other reasons for sweating.

You made it very clear that it was simple, now you are saying it is not?

What are these other reasons that weren’t important initially when it was all very simple but are important now?

It is simple. I haven't mentioned anything about importance.  As a couple of others have commented, being fitter  means you'll sweat less...........

And to quote from the link you posted:-  

"Let’s revisit that image of the two athletes of different fitness levels. If we took an elite marathon runner and someone who had just started training and got them to run together at 9 minutes per mile, this would be a very low relative intensity of exercise for the elite runner in comparison to their maximum speed. But it might be literally as hard as the novice can go.

In this scenario, the novice will certainly sweat more because he is working relatively harder. But if we got the pro athlete to run at a similar relative intensity (perhaps something like 5 minutes per mile) they would sweat more than the novice, due to having a better-developed sweating response overall."

Didn't you notice that bit?  

I think we should compare apples with apples rather…

This. And also to the genetic post above. My sister and I are both fairly fit and active but we both sweat quite a bit during exertion, particularly as the temperature increases (not sure if it's mum or dad we have to thank!). 

Using Bill's example which he finds so entertaining - it is perhaps true that comparing an unfit tourist with the fitter regular hill-goer that the tourist may be a bit sweatier. But if you picked any two unfit tourists walking up your local hill you'd find different levels of sweat. Same goes for any two very fit and active people performing the same task. Biological variation.

Plenty of studies out there about fitter individuals and better developed sweat response. Also that sweating in response to heat/exercise isn't really a reliable indicator of a persons fitness.

Definitely not as simple as the blanket statement made above!

Bill - based on your theory, who is the fitter tennis player. Roger Federer or Rafael Nadal?

Or from a different angle and considering the robust, reliable and valid fitness test outlined in the thread above - which player's wrist would you rather lick?

I used never to take water even on a long, hot day but did drink if possible from clean sources. Now I take just 500ml in a coke bottle. I drink loads in morning and well before sleeping. Being light, carrying minimum (inc water) and keeping cool obviously helps. I normally drink a lot during the day when not walking (can down a litre plus very quickly if needed) so I don't think I'm risking long term health, I can't objectively say if my performance/judgement suffers on a long day out though others have never remarked on a deterioration, though perhaps their expectations are low anyway .

That's all just me and won't suit everyone.. Knowing highest  water source from map previously mentioned and for the Cuillin Ridge there are a few points mentioned in guidebooks/forums along the ridge but they may require a few minutes descent (here one can fill a litre coke bottle as well as drinking directly, and then use it fairly soon to avoid lugging the extra kg too far).

Yes, perhaps.

Crazily a fit person's body becomes more adapt at cooling the more you train, the body will or could lower the body temperature at which sweating starts, if they are well hydrated they'll sweat more too. The physics of moving a mass uphill or doing more work means the chemical reactions will generate more heat in a shorter time span, as they'll cover more ground in less time and in said time air flow over the body would be less etc..

However, unless racing (think fell runner in shorts and vest etc), a fit mountaineer will generally moderate their pace so they aren't busting a gut, but still making good progress and have the experience to modify clothing accordingly.

The unfit will be working hard, and likely swinging continuously from being over dressed to under dressed, stop starting for drinks, clothing adjustments or just to breathe.

Especially royalty.

You are Prince Andrew, and I claim my five pounds.

what if a person gets really scared on 3PS and loses their ability to sweat?(obvious bonus on saving chalk in the future)

I haven't a clue - I don't watch tennis. I wouldn't like lick either wrist!!  Or arse!!

PS I wasn't aware I found my post amusing.  

PPS.....oh never mind.

Hi Bill. 

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=roger+federer+rafael+nadal+sweat

Both are elite athletes and multiple grand slam winners. One sweats buckets, the other not so. 

Wrist reference was in jest at John Stainforth's bizarre self fitness test he outlined above. Only in jest mind - each to their own!

The entertainment reference was in reference to you apparently finding unfit tourists puffing up your local hill amusing in some way:

"I live on a hill.  I see  unfit tourists, (and some of the other locals), puffing and huffing up the hill.  and in summer sweating as they go.  Its can be quite entertaining".

Mild attempts at Sunday morning humour whilst trying to give examples to challenge your stance are clearly lost.

Oh never mind!

Cheers.

PS - can't believe I missed my chance at Prince Andrew references. 

Thanks BT - I missed the reference to JS's lick testing.  And when I say 'hill', its really only a walk from the beach through the village to the top - can't be more than 150' in ascent, but then I guess if you live on the flat lands and don't get out much ...............Mmmm??  Oh dear I think I've upset any UKC member from 'Ull  now.  ........oh dear.