UKC

Hypothetical question: if the average climber really pushed themselves to climb (trad), what could they achieve? 

This year, HS.

Down slightly on last year:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/graphs.php#gradetype2

EDIT: ok to be fair, that is what the average climber IS achieving, not what they COULD achieve, it's basically an impossible question to answer.

It's also the average grade logged, not the average maximum that individuals are achieving. My average grade in years that I'm climbing a decent amount is normally about VS but that's several grades below what I feel I've "achieved".

Even if UKC calculated an "average max", it might not tell you all that much. My maximum always ends up being a top-rope, which you probably wouldn't want to include.

Yes that's a completely inaccurate way of measuring it. My average grade this year is HS, but I've been climbing solidly at HVS and the odd E1. The average being what it is, because I've also soloed a bucket load of Mod-Severes! 

My guess is E2 or E3, though it is very hard to say unless you define "really pushed"

Depends completely on the definitions of "average climber" and "really pushed". 

What kind of "average climber" do you have in mind, someone with 10 years experience, climbs outdoor 2 or 3 days a week and has access to training facilities? Or someone who climbs outside every few weeks, living miles away from the nearest crag and wall, with a young family and demanding job? These people are probably more numerous i.e. average. 

You're all right. It's hard (if not impossible) to measure. Without trying to get bogged down in semantics, I suppose I meant 'average' as not the once-a-week-at-the-climbing-wall nor the beastly gods of rock, or more accurately myself, who I see as generally an average climber.

If they were focussed on pushing grades, and therefore training and practicing with that in mind, then E5 would be a reasonable goal for most - certainly not impossible for the majority I would say. If, however, they wanted to be the best (i.e. having the most fun!) they could achieve that at almost any grade.

E1 - requires reasonable fitness and technique and a steady head.

E3 - rather more commitment, time and training, but should be achievable by most people.

E5 - Realistic goal once you're established at E3.

Good luck.

It's just nice to have something to aim for, isn't it? Cheers folks.

E1 in Pembroke - requires solid trad skills and often no more fitness/technique than a 5+ indoors

E1 on grit - might require really good crack-climbing skills, or the confidence and technique to climb a holdless friction slab with the consequences of breaking your legs if it goes wrong

E1 in the Lakes - could be anything. Could be positive holds, solid rock, good runners if a little spaced, at about f6a. Or you might be fighting up an overhanging crack for 30m, with loose rock, covered in lichen, and no decent gear, fighting death at every step

I think there is a problem in the question.  The average climber is an average climber because they don't "really push themselves".  That level of mental resolve is not 'average'.

Yes, true, but rockface still asked an interesting question, i.e. what can we achieve if we get on with it and REALLY push ourselves - E8? And it has broader implications - could we run a 3.5-minute mile? Get a Ph.D.? Make 10 million quid, or get a 12-bedroom mansion? Maybe people do not want to do any of them, but I think it is still a good question

I think its basically the talent / training question, isn't it ? I just don't think you can isolate the physical and mental aspects in any meaningful way.  Especially for something as complex as climbing where the physical demands are so varied and hard to quantify and the mental demands of training and hard trad even more so.

I think most climbers could onsight an E5 if* they really wanted to.

* this is a pretty big if and by that I mean put are willing to put in the necessary time and effort. my very narrow peak if E4 (v. soft) with a few E3s. If I climbed more trad (and climbed more in general) I reckon I could better that but work, life and family also compete for my time.

Given that you've climbed 7b, this could reasonably translate to headpointing well protected E6. 

Obviously many people trust trad gear considerably less than bolts so tend not to go to max effort. 

Either way, you've got way more in you than HVS. Get out on some routes! 

"How many E numbers can I get?"

Depend what you eat, Tizer has a few in, so some sort of coloured cake washed down with a mug of Tizer should give you a good start.

I'm going to say E3 on-sight and E5 head pointed as a realistic goal. Based on a non too special climber who's got reasonable indoor strength but has focused on getting solid on trad for a while and isn't afraid to push themselves a bit. Now if someone with all the above properties and dedication is still classed as "average" is another matter. But an average person could choose to become this person if they wanted and had good access to rock.

Good point but it seems to me that motivation is just as big a factor as those two. I think a lot of people would say they are motivated (to use my examples above) to climb E8, run a 3.5-minute mile, get a Ph.D., make 10 million quid, or get a 12-bedroom mansion - but I do not think they are really

https://twitter.com/grimerclimber/status/1005048188917747712

This springs to mind.

7b indoors... it seems to be a whole different ball game outside! E5ish seems to be the consensus (which I'd be well chuffed with). 

You know what sparked this? I saw a picture of Dalriada (E8 6b) and thought to myself "I'd like to climb that one day..." It's nice to have something to aim for. 

If you'd quite like to climb it you've got no chance. 

Onn the other hand if you really, really want to climb it, are prepared to dedicate the next 8 years of your life to climb it, be prepared to be a sad, weirdo obsessive about climbing it, then one day you 'might' just scrape up it  

Some people say there's an old man who sits atop the Cobbler, wistfully dreaming of climbing Dalriada... 

Despite what other people seem to be suggesting, if you do a reasonable amount of training and a lot of trad to get a good head, I don't see why you shouldn't do it. 

Tech wise Dalriada is about f7b+, although apparently quite tricky to read. This from James Mchaffie who should know what he's talking about. 

I'd recommend getting out and pushing your grade on rock on trad/sport and you'll see rapid progress outside. 

Actually I am rethinking my comment that E3 or E4 is the limit. Thinking back I have known some apparently very ordinary climbers who suddenly tried a lot harder and reached E5 and even higher. And I cannot remember a single climber who really wanted to reach those levels and was unable to do so

Collect some impressive E numbers by eating a pot noodle before you go climbing,

* maybe I should have posted this in the Viz top tips thread

I once got 25 E  points in 9 minutes.  Pointless maths.The climbing was great fun.

... and then you can score one E point that takes all day, but it can be the finer, more memorable experience ...