UKC

... who drives past the Tryfan laybys honking in the morning?

I spent quite few nights in the Ogwen Valley now over a couple of weeks (on/off because of work) camping in my car and couldn't help but notice that on many a mornings somebody drives past the laybys (east to west) honking!!! What's his/her problem?

Probably people camping in the laybys.

Isn’t it mr Sandman who does that ?

He's going the wrong way if he's off to  Never Never Land

Maybe they are just sick of you being there.

What a fabulous idea, thank you for sharing.

Kipped there too once, although I left my two mates in the car (a Vauxhall Chevette), jumped over the wall and bedded down in a plastic orange survival bag by the lake. However the wind soon picked up, blowing surface water into my bag. I was soon back at the car, knocking on the windows but mates thought it was hilarious, not letting me back in until I was nigh on hypothermic!

The next morning we did a circuit of Pen yr Ol Wen and some of the Carnedd's (sic) in a cloud inversion which was life affirming and I made a couple of friends for life (even accounting for the previous night's transgressions).

Come on, really? People staying there don't do any harm. In fact, it never fails to amaze me how squeaky clean the laybys are given the admittedly rather large number of people camping there.

Squeaky clean?!?! Apart from the ones that smell of piss, have sh!t behind the walls, bog roll and the standard coffee grounds?

Oh right. Ok. My mistake. Must be something else then if you say so. Nothing to do with this:

Except when I turn up in the morning and can’t get a spot because of people illegally camping there.  Go park in a paid campsite, like I do.

I see your point, but, to be honest, I am yet to come across the laybys you are describing. I am, of course, not advocating open defecation in any way, shape or form, but I take it you are not driving back to your campsite when you have to urinate.

I think it is perfectly legal to sleep in your car in the UK for as long as it is parked up correctly.

Is it actually illegal in Wales, or just antosocial.

And your point is? All parked up perfectly legal. I understand that it is annoying if folks show at 9am and can't find a space to park. That said, I've only found the laybys full on BH weekends with a perfect weather forecast. Coming back to the person driving by honking, I really don't understand where the hatred comes from.

It's not my point. You asked what this person's problem is, I suggested it's probably that they're pissed off that the whole valley is a campsite. I don't have any skin in this game. 

If you want to explain that you think that's fine, flag them down and educate them. I'm sure it'll go great.

Assuming that the person(s) who honk their horn on the way by haven't actually posted in this thread, everyone else is pretty much just guessing what their motivation might be anyway.

But "hatred" is a very strong word, and if you really can't imagine why a lay-by being turned into a permanent campsite might cause a certain amount of resentment to some of the locals then you either have a rather limited imagination or you're just not trying.

I live here so don’t use campsites. I do of course take a leak in the hills etc, but no, not in the lay-bys.

I most definitely pro van dossing, I have a van and love. I have no reason to doubt you are a responsible van / car camper but the fact is many aren’t and it is a problem for many reasons.

You may be right.  I found the following on the website for the national park but there’s no specific reference to cars;

“Staying in campervans and caravans

Most of Eryri’s official campsites are suitable for campervans and caravans.

Staying overnight at a car park in a campervan or caravan is not permitted in Eryri National Park. Booking a place at an official campsite is the best way to ensure peace of mind and a chance to relax completely during your stay.”

I don't think they have a problem, they're just providing a helpful wake-up call for everyone that's stayed over with an aim to get up early for a day on the hills.

beep beep

My interpretation is it's legal with landowner's permission, which is presumably the local authority and you presumably don't have, but it's only trespass anyway so worst case is you'll get moved on. Feeling entitled to an undisturbed night's sleep at the side of a single digit numbered A-road though.... Good luck with that.

It's also legal to use your horn to warn other road users of your presence, so the OP should be grateful really for the passer-by sparing a thought for the safety of anyone who might be getting up for a piss in the night.

Doubtful hatred, as mentioned above, but frustration and exhaustion at an ever increasing problem of the minority of people overusing sites and not being very considerate of the local population. 

I work at a rather busy coastal destination, and there is a small amount of free parking in the village. Even with large parish council signs outside saying 'no overnight camping' there is always a horde of van campers parked up throughout the summer, some staying for multiple nights. I can't imagine why, as its not even a flat surface - slightly on a hill.

Anyway, when I turn up for work, there are always people spilling out onto the verge, cooking their breakfast, airing out their sleeping bags, wet clothing draped over wing mirrors, wandering into the middle of the road like a zombie apocalypse.. you get the idea. I don't even live there but I get annoyed by the lack of consideration that they are right out in front of someone's house. And I usually judge how ridiculously busy my day is going to be by the amount of campers in at 8am. If all the spaces are taken - stupidly busy. 

And when all the free spaces are taken up, its not uncommon to see people parked in front of farmers gates (although these are usually people asleep in cars rather than vans). 

So yeah, I'm not surprised a local person is doing this. Unfortunately at my location it would wake up the whole village.

Well, that's obviously not acceptable, sorry to hear it's that bad.

Good point, I found this:

https://clearwaylaw.com/sleep-in-my-car-uk

Fair enough, didn't see it that way.

All this talk of the ethics of sleeping in lay bys but I’ve been woken up when sleeping at Gwern Gof Uchaf by people doing this several times … both in the morning and late at night.

I’d say it’s just plain and simple anti-social I don’t think there is a deep hidden meaning to it. 

Nothing really to do with ethics and more to do with the legality...

I often drive to Holyhead to catch a night ferry so  park up in a layby to get a couple of hours kip in the car on the way. I used to assume that if there were lorries parked up there doing the same thing then I was ok and not in breach of any laws but reading up on the subject it is far from clear whether sleeping in a car in a layby is legally the same as sleeping in a lorry in a layby. Can anyone quote an absolute definitive ruling on the subject?

It is a criminal offence to obstruct a public highway. Laybys can be part of the highway, or on private land immediately alongside the highway. If the layby is on private land it's not a criminal offence and very difficult for the landowner to do anything about it. See numerous articles about the seemingly baffling situation of being virtually powerless if someone parks a car in your driveway and disappears for a week. If the layby is part of the highway but you're not obstructing or endangering passing traffic then you're not committing an offence. The situation seen sometimes on the A5 through the Ogwen Valley does obstruct and endanger passing traffic, therefore the offence is being committed. If there are traffic regulation orders in place, e.g. No Stopping, urban Clearway, double yellow lines, then you are committing a slightly different criminal offence that the council, rather than the police, enforce, via fines rather than prosecution. Note that double yellow lines apply to the whole area of highway at that point, so parking on a verge or layby behind double yellows will still get you a ticket from a passing council traffic warden (e.g. as happens at the Roaches from time to time)

Still not clear to me from your answer whether the same laws apply to lorry drivers sleeping in a layby and car drivers parked up and sleeping in the same place.

Very interesting point. I remember the police (on motorbikes for some reason) would patrol the Ogwen Valley quite frequently on BH weekends and rows of vehicles would have PCNs for parking on the verge, behind double lines or even stretches of pavement alongside the lake and west of the youth hostel. Obstructing or not didn't seem to matter.

However, none of the cars, vans, etc. in the laybys had tickets. I take it this sorts the legality of staying there. 

Sorry, not sure about lorry drivers, but below is a link to what I found (and go by).

https://clearwaylaw.com/sleep-in-my-car-uk

Probably the same person who honks loudly going past the campsites. This is clearly just antisocial arsehole behaviour that pisses off the locals as much as the tourists (I know because the guy that runs the Dolgam campsite told me).

However, this is UKC where van hate runs strong so obviously the individual is some sort warrior trying to take back control of his country from the hordes of incomers. Now where have I heard that sort of rhetoric before?  

Are you actively looking for new ways to be a dick?

Lorries, cars, campervans, doesn't matter. You're either obstructing or endangering passing traffic or not. You're either in a vehicle on private land next to the highway or you're at the edge of the highway. In addition to various traffic regulation orders there might also be byelaws about stopping overnight in laybys. If there are there'll be a sign saying so

It is also a traffic offence to park on a verge or at the edge of the road if there is a single or double solid white line down the middle of the road, which might explain that. Not sure if that applies to laybys too.

I'd say so, yes

Edited to add at the edge of the road

Legal or not, doesn't matter. One or two doing it would be fine, the numbers there now probably aren't. There's going to be a tipping point where someone decides it's become necessary to put a stop to it, and at that point it'll be ruined for everyone. Any solution that puts a stop to camping there will make it difficult/impossible/expensive to leave a car overnight there, so as usual we'll all lose out because of people taking the piss.

Last time I stayed at Gwern Gof Uchaf a few weeks ago I got woken up on a very still night by someone revving a motorbike incredibly loudly what sounded like a mile or two away. It didn't occur to me that it might be aimed at tourists, I just thought it was the local yoof messing about

I completely agree with you, I was just stating the legal position because someone asked for that

FIFY

Try not to swear, it is not clever.

I do not think people generally object to people sleeping in vans, and let's face it, one vehicle parked in a layby or in some quiet place, very few people are going to notice. However the clusters of vans, in the Peak, on the road up to Llanbetis, ogwen, lay by under the Grochan, Blea Tarn road, up the side of Coniston opposite nibbthwaite, in the lay by by the bridge in Langdale, I could mention more, but I am sure you get the point, look unsightly, it is freeloading, some leave waste and it blocks parking for other users often for 2 or 3 days, is selfish, so I would suggest that van sleepers have become an issue.

Toot toot 👌

The Highway Code may be a good place to start; all vehicles are subject to the restrictions therein and there are additional restrictions for goods vehicles:

• Rule 238 - waiting, parking, & stopping (yellow lines)
• Rule 239 - parking in designated spaces and rules for on-road parking
• Rule 240 - parking restrictions on the public highway
• Rule 241 - parking restrictions (reserved spaces)
• Rule 242 - obstructing the public highway (parking)
• Rule 243 - parking restrictions (other)
• Rule 244 - parking restrictions (pavements)
• Rule 245 - parking zones
• Rule 246 - goods vehicle restrictions
• Rule 248 - 252 - parking at night

Source:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/waiting-and-parking-238-to-252

Beyond these rules, I am not aware of any restrictions to sleeping in a parked vehicle with the exception of being under the influence of alcohol or proscribed drugs.

Apparently, it is

https://www.sciencealert.com/swearing-is-a-sign-of-more-intelligence-not-le...

Just out of interest why don't you use campsites etc?

No judgement from me personally I'm just always interested as to why people (sweeping statement) would rather stay by the road when they can go somewhere with showers and loos. 

Is it purely a money reason?

Arrive / leave at any time.

Depending on the campsite, no partying nearby , only traffic noise which is often minimal overnight.

No smelly septic tanks , both Sligathan and Glen Brittle stank last time we stayed.

Our van, L2, 5411mm , is  good for 6 days off grid, washing and toilet facilities included.

I object to you calling it freeloading.

I park legally.

I have paid tax every year since I left school.

The UK is an economic block, we contribute and abide by the rules, simplistic view but sleeping in a vehicle is not freeloading.

In Spain,  if a vehicle is parked legally, its OK to be sleeping in it. Whats regulated is  camping behaviour, encampments. So no awnings, tables, chairs, firepits. Simple to understand, might be a good idea if we copied.

Sometimes it can be because the campsite is busy, very noisy and the facilities disgusting. It's not only laybys that get trashed on those busy summer weekends with good weather. One might also think the countryside code doesn't apply on such weekends and it's very rare some moorland somewhere doesn't set on fire, due to to a barbecue or discarded cigarette. We desperately need better education, much more so than greater parking restriction (where the wealthy end up getting the best access). Some restrictions would work: as an example banning disposable barbecues would help.

I have a self contained van too. The campsites I’m happy to use never cause problems with noise etc. I also use unofficial overnight stops and sometimes lay-bys, particularly to break journeys. However I do not use honeypot parking spaces provided for day visitors as my campsite. That is what upsets the phantom horn blowers and many on UKC

Yes, thanks for that. I don't know where i got the idea from that HGVs are not subject to the same restrictions as campervans. Actually  it was useful to be reminded that even in a layby at night, parking lights are a legal requirement unless the speed limit on the adjacent road is 30 mph.

This is England and Wales, not Spain or France or the USA, and very different. The places in this thread are in easy access honeypot areas, and by parking in these places they block others from using them for extended periods ie down the end of Coniston, which tbh is a poor place to enjoy peace and quiet parked by the side of the road, when they could park on a campsite, but do not I assume to avoid paying, so in my opinion, and it is only an opinion, it is freeloaders. Also by parking there all night they take a public good, ie the view, and make it a private good, their own. But again, that's only my opinion.

Right must go, Alexa has told me to go to the bouldering wall.

Toot toot 🙃

On top of the human shite, bog roll and litter found at many honeypot car/van sleeping spots, what really gets me is when you see a van taking up far more space than it needed through inconsiderate or incompetent parking. Seen many examples (especially Skye) of vans being parked by people who don’t have the skills to be behind the wheel of these things. 
 

Yes, yes, not all van/car drivers etc etc. 

I used to occasionally camp at the farm site up the road from Betws y Coed. It's next to the road and there was honking in the morning there also. 

I think (and I don't claim any legal expertise) that, provided you are not breaking any law (or bylaw) nor contravening the Highway Code, there is nothing to stop any driver sleeping in any vehicle.

Using my own kitchen bin shitter al fresco is a real pleasure and ideally I like to feel able to empty my pee bottle out of the window when it is chucking it down. Both are not generally acceptable in campsites. Having to walk all the way to a not particularly savoury toilet block every time nature calls is a real faff. And having to pay £15 or whatever it was for the privilege last time I made the mistake of going to Wales just added insult to injury.

Showers? Sorry, you have lost me there; I'm a climber.

Just to highlight something that I posted a couple of days back - there are specific regulations in Eyri/Snowdonia National Park, that I assume are bylaws.  From the website;

“Staying in campervans and caravans

Most of Eryri’s official campsites are suitable for campervans and caravans.

Staying overnight at a car park in a campervan or caravan is not permitted in Eryri National Park. Booking a place at an official campsite is the best way to ensure peace of mind and a chance to relax completely during your stay.”

A more cynical reading of the quote would suggest that if there were bylaws against it, they probably would have said so, or used words like "illegal" or "against the law". "Not permitted" sounds more like they want to make it sound as official as possible because they recognise the problem but actually don't have a strong legal basis for the statement.

Excellent information which provides a definitive answer as to whether a vehicle should be parked in one of Eryri's laybys overnight.

Notwithstanding that people should not be there, the driver sounding their horn may also be guilty of an offence (depending on the reason that they are sounding their horn): 

Rule 112

The horn. Use only while your vehicle is moving and you need to warn other road users of your presence. Never sound your horn aggressively. You MUST NOT use your horn

• while stationary on the road
• when driving in a built-up area between the hours of 11.30 pm and 7.00 am

except when another road user poses a danger.

Source:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/general-rules-techniques-and-a...

Whilst this is taken from the Highway Code, the quote above is covered under law (The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986) and breaking rule 112 is an offence.

Which they weren't.

Which it isn't. 

So they clearly aren't.

They did not need to warn another road user of their presence and they were arguably being aggrssive.

So possibly illegal.

I think the best tactic with these honkers is probably to make it look like you think they are being friendly and give a smiley wave back.

Maybe. However, I'm not so sure that the situation is so clear cut.

It seemed to me that the whole thrust of the OP was that the driver using their horn in the mornings was directing their ire at the vehicles parked in the layby. My inference may be incorrect (hence the passive language in my original remarks); however, should it be the case, one might argue that the use of the horn is "aggressive".

A vehicle horn has a specific purpose (...you need to warn other road users of your presence); something many road users seem to forget. Logically, I don't need to warn stationary vehicles of my presence and use of the word, "only" in the guidance (and regulations) precludes the use of the horn for greeting your mates, providing alarm calls , and angry road-rage exchanges.

That leaves only one other explanation; that driver(s) are routinely having to warn other vehicles of their presence on the main trunk road from London to Holyhead. I'll be honest, I think this explanation is unlikely.

I feel this is an administrative / organisational issue?

In the US camping is strictly banned in car parks that are needed for access, e.g. near trail heads or access points to a river. I don't know the area in question but it seems these car park spaces are used in that context?

And then to make up for this and make sure there is adequate provision for car camping, there are specific camp sites (or areas within camp sites) for vans/cars. It might be tricky to dedicate land for this (BLM has a lot more land to play with for example) but isn't this where we are going wrong? There is even provision made for emptying sewage tanks, either proper RV tanks or more ad hoc containers.

Feels like van / car camping has become more common and the service providers (public and private) are still catching up. Hence the issues. 

Feels like outdoor recreation is becoming more popular, the population is increasing, and thus there might need to be a step change in how we access these areas to ensure they remain 'functional'. 

For me at least the camping areas in Utah on a recent trip were well done and didn't detract from the 'wildness' of the area. Superbowl Campground nr Moab, Valley of Fire state park nr Las Vegas two good examples with lots of facilities for van/car camping.

That part isn't under the MUST NOT 

So no it isn't. You can argue for antisocial, unnecessary, annoying, whatever, but not illegal.

That's a fair point actually and is probably the correct interpretation.

On Edit, this may or may not be the case.

The consensus among motoring lawyers appears to be that the horn should only be used to draw attention to yourself in the event of danger: anything else could be considered a "misuse" of a vehicle's safety feature and subject to a fixed penalty notice (non-endorsable) of £30.00.

The machinations of interpreting the law is getting beyond my experience but I was taught never to use the horn except to notify other drivers of your presence. I'm happy to accept that I'm wrong here.

I've linked to a couple of sources below. 

https://www.dma-law.co.uk/is-it-illegal-to-honk-your-horn/

https://www.footmanjames.co.uk/blog/rules-for-using-your-horn

Public service providers: you can forget that with the current state of public finances.

Private service providers: it's not that facilities don't exist, the issue is that many people are choosing to avoid paying for them.

If legality is the concern, I don't think there's any point discussing the language in the highway code as it's the language of the law itself that matters. The link posted with the original quote leads to that. I'm not a lawyer, but paragraph 4 seems to suggest a general prohibition on use of the horn when it's not justified by the exceptions (i.e. using it as a warning). But that does seem to make paragraph 1 (with the specific restrictions on use when stationary or at night in urban areas) a bit redundant, so maybe I've misinterpreted the legalese.

I’m pretty sure Trump mentioned him as being on the FBI’s most wanted list  

I think that we're in agreement here and my edit seems to have crossed with your post.

My view has coalesced around the idea that anything other than notifying other vehicles of your presence would be considered misuse of a vehicle's safety features.

Pedantic nitpick - sorry: 
Other road users.  (Who may or may not be inside vehicles.)

Good catch Dude (and it made me smile)

https://snowdonexperts.uk/snowdon-campervan-parking

Check this out - some Snowdon "experts" telling all the vanners where to go. I know it isn't the only website to list these parkups but it's the only locally based group doing so that also claim to be experts in Snowdon, whatever that means. I guess it is a tourism promotion service but it doesn't appear to be that responsible, especially considering both the National Park Authority advice or the CRoW Act definition of Access Land, which laybys such as those on the A5 in Ogwen are located in.

I might be wrong here, but most people on this site are climbers,walkers, scramblers,  folk who enjoy being outdoors. We like to think we care about our environment, the mountains, hills and lakes and rivers. We're very quick to protect them from damage. So why are these same people littering the shores of Llyn Padarn, and just look over the wall of the Llyn Ogwen lay by's pink toilet paper spread wide. If you can afford a camper van, park on a camp site. Keep the environment clean. Maybe we need signs "£100 fine for overnight stay". I quite like the idea of disturbing their sleep in the early hours. 

Other "road users". So like I said above, ages ago, warning anyone who might be thinking of getting up in the night to go for a piss...

Those links you added seem just to take the highway code and mangle the word order to add confusion. MUST NOT has a specific meaning in the highway code.

That would be an ecumenical matter

Yes

I think you have. Para 4 is about "gong, bell, siren or two-tone horn", which are the things you're basically not allowed to sound unless you're an emergency vehicle or a car alarm. (See Section 37)

I quite like the idea of sounding a gong as you drive along. 

USA seems to do things quite well in their national parks. Stealth camping is generally fine where it isn't a problem. In the super popular places, they have stricter rules (such as no wild camping - only camping allowed within designated areas, and requirements for permits so parks aren't overrun). 

I think things would be a lot better if our National Parks had some stricter rules on overnighting. I'd like to see a 'no overnighting in vehicles outside of official campsites' kind of thing implemented. I also wouldn't be against some enforcement on 'wild' camping. E.g. people who are actually sensibly wild/stealth-camping being unaffected (as they are out-of-sight), and people who are doing it badly (e.g. BBQing amongst a pile of detritus next to Idwal) getting fined and moved on. We could have a few rangers wandering about educating and enforcing, paid for by any fines & permits. 

I think things could also be vastly improved on the parking front; I'd be all-for some serious double-yellow-lining to cut down on all the verge-parking (and some actual enforcement for rule-breakers). Sort that, along with improving public transport and increased P&D capacity and we would be moving in the right direction. 

And I quite often beep at all the vans parked along The Dale when I'm going home from Stanage. Quite happy to answer any questions you might have about why; I'd much rather they weren't there spoiling the view

Lomond and Tossachs NP came partly unstuck when they found that they could not fine anyone for being in a layby in a vehicle.  They will get you with a tent, but vans were untouchable due to being part of the road and the difficulty of differentiating tired drivers from van dossers.  Had the horrible side effect of criminalising cycle tourists that could not clear the park but allowingheavier traffic  to stop overnight.

I suspect the number of cycle tourists to have been actually fined is zero. The chances of getting caught with discreet wild camping are very low and all that seems to happen is people get told to move on.

Presumably when you park your own vehicle in the Peak, you only park in ugly places? Or hide it under a camouflaged cover? Or it's just a damn pretty car that everyone's happy to see? 

I get that the popularity of vans is a bit out of control and causing problems in some places, but the hypocrisy on UKC is hilarious. "My large estate/SUV has a perfect right to be parked anywhere from early in the morning to late at night, but a van is half a metre taller and sometimes stays there while it's dark and nobody's around anyway, so it's a filthy eyesore that infuriates me. I have no responsibility for the litter that other parked cars or climbers leave but all van drivers are collectively to blame for the ones who crap in hedges."

This is a really interesting point. Is there a way of clarifying if it would be seen as 'camping' in Spain if, let's say, a single person/family/group in a camper/van/... stops somewhere NOT TO CAMP FOR THE NIGHT but to simply have lunch/siesta and, for the purpose of said lunch, puts a table/chairs outside the van, brings out the awning, etc. only to continue their journey a few hours later (to park up somewhere else without all of the usual camping things)?

Well yes, my hatchback down in the carpark is significantly less of an eyesore than a big white camper parked in a layby with commanding views of the Hope valley, which can be seen from Burbage, Higgar, Millstone, and Stanage. Also I dont sit and have a bloody picnic on a table under a canopy by my Fiesta. 

It's all just by degree though isn't it? You think your car is a bit less of a problem than a van so that means you get to say it's the vans that are the problem.

I think you could use that argument against most things. Parking is not the same thing as camping, and all that comes with it. 

It certainly highlights the hypocrisy in a lot of situations where a common resource is threatened by overuse. Everyone wants to maintain that it can't be the way they use it which is the problem when in fact the problem is simply the number of people using the resource.

perhaps it’s time for permits in peak times 🤔 

Nah. More likely it'll just end with height barriers or p&d. People will have to spread out a bit, and not doss right in the the epicentre of the honeypot. Which they could easily do now instead of piling into already rammed parking spots.

To be honest I've been wondering how long it would take the OP to think of parking somewhere else, because it's not like you'd have to go far to escape this inconvenience. There are loads of places nearby you would never be disturbed.

Don't entirely disagree but I have to say the Dale is one of the places I mind a lot less than others, definitely compared to other places discussed here. Vans being on the Dale don't generally stop you being able to park for Pop and they don't (usually) block the road. My only annoyance is how it gets churned up and isn't all useable for a smaller vehicle. But I would be wary of losing the ability to park on the Dale at all - despite having a permit for the car parks, these days I often park there in my (small!) car because it's about the only flatter access to the top.

Careful now!

It'd be nice if everyone was taught this.  In my experience pretty much all the honks one hears out and about are shorthand for 'what the fuc k are you doing/get the fu ck out of my way/f uck you' (just about town, I mean, not as a driver. I've never used a horn yet while driving). Definitely not in accordance with the Highway Code

It's entirely possible to use the horn to mean both at once, such as when a car coming the other way is way over the middle line and you feel you have to 'think thin', or when overtaking on a dual carriageway and the car you're passing decides to pull into your lane, without indicating, while you're still in it. There are many prize specimen drivers out there and I find the horn to be a useful addition to a car's other features.

You've omitted the use of the horn by people who drive up to someone's house and then, rather than knocking on the door, announce their arrival (and request for the house occupant to come out) by hooting continually. Such action is pretty useless as a way of attracting their forthcoming passenger's attention - but it does rather annoy everybody else within earshot.

Slightly tangential rant. I remember turning up to a parking spot in NW Scotland a couple of years back with space for about 6 cars, which had been completely taken up by a German couple who had parked their big RV right across the middle of it, and set up a table and chairs for a leisurely lunch in the remaining parking space. They made zero effort to move, even when a forestry ranger type turned up and told them to make space for other people and park their RV appropriately.

It comes down to the basic guideline of 'don't be a dick'. And that, if you unfortunately happen to be a dick, you end up being a much bigger and more annoying dick if you have a large vehicle. 

Paul, kindly share the reg of your hatchback and I’ll leave you a nice steaming review of your honking on the bonnet. I’m sure the house you live in really adds to the landscape doesn’t it? And if you’re irate at vans but not the huge factory over the way from Stanage you need a little dose of retrospection.

My house is in a city, not a National Park. I'd rather the factory in Hope not be there either but I could hardly object to it in 1929.  

Classic 'whataboutery' on both points and neither remotely comparable. 

I see you're quite open in your profile about you and your partner living in your van so I don't expect you to agree but you are part of a growing problem in our wild places. And shitting on a car bonnet would probably make a nice change to a ditch or layby, wouldn't it.  

Let’s agree to disagree.

“Whataboutery” is a very weak method of shutting down debate in my opinion. At least use a logical fallacy.

Our van fully self sufficient so no shitting anywhere outside except your car bonnet.  

Daily we’re cleaning up litter from crags, car parks and lay bys - including dog poo bags and lovely white flowers (see Stone Locals movie :P) so in the immortal words of Maui, you’re welcome. 

I'm a fan of the lomond/loch earn camping restrictions. I'm not sure how well they're enforced (enforcement is always the weak link) but perhaps should be extended all the way up to the North coast?

Forgive my scepticism but I've known a number of van-lifers and I wouldn't describe a single one of them as self-sufficient. They all relied on friends and/or services they weren't paying for to some extent. Whether that's hot showers, a driveway with electrical hookup, where you pour your sewerage, the bins you put your rubbish in, etc.

Not contributing to 'the grid' but living with one foot firmly in it. 

Maybe replace "self sufficient" with "responsible" then.

In context with what they were replying to, it seemed to me that "self-sufficient" was just a reference to having a toilet in their van and not crapping in hedges.

Honking their horn at people, pretty pathetic isn't it, feeble... petty... and what does it achieve?

Now, if on the other hand they had something like this https://bosshorn.com/products/milwaukee-premium-train-horn-gun-with-remote-...  then I'd understand

Fantastic idea! Can't wait to try it out on the next smug, parking-hogging hedge-shitters I find!

I love the product description which includes “Whether you're camping, hiking, or attending a sporting event, this best train horn is perfect for making a statement.”

To answer your question, as somebody who lives in Spain and used to have a campervan. 

As somebody said earlier, it is legal to sleep in your vehicle, but not to ‘camp’. The exception to this is where there is a sign explicitly prohibiting sleeping overnight. These days most popular van spots have one of these signs. 

During the summer months the local police will generally do an evening sweep around such spots. Vans that are shut up and dark (i.e. that looked ‘parked’) will be ignored; those with the roof up and/or chairs and tables etc will be told politely that they may not stay and if they are still here when the officers do their next round they will be fined.

If and when the police do their second round, they will usually keep ignoring the shut/dark/“parked” van, but _will_ bother the previous ‘campers’, as promised, *even if their van is now all shut-up and dark*.

Occasionally, at the really popular spots, they will do a proper raid at night, shine torches through windows, and fine everybody.

I no longer have a van, but a general rule, I preferred staying in campsites. The fun of camping is being outside; not hiding from the police!

It was indeed! Long showers, waste and the odd bit of power, we use campsites/caravan parks - £5-10 every 10 days - easy! 

No, the best place for that is on the handlebars of my pushbike - it'll make the idiot car drivers think there's an artic coming and they'll give me some space.

Except many such folk a the sort that wouldn't do it if there was a regulation in place.

Totally. An old neighbour didn't have a car and used to boast how a car wasn't really necessary or sustainable. But whenever he wanted to go somewhere he'd ask me for a lift and not provide any payment. The odd lift was fine but this was an hour's round trip to the climbing wall with a toll on way there & back.