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OK, let's fix some terminology: your 'comfort grade' is the highest grade at which you could be pretty certain to successfully lead onsight (trad, of course), given good weather and no injuries. So you can claim VDiff if you reckon you could climb pretty much any VDiff in the UK I pointed you at.
Your 'lead grade' is the hardest grade you've lead onsight.
Your 'second grade' is given by taking the adjectival grade which corresponds to the highest technical grade you've seconded clean. (So you can't claim E4 if you've seconded an E4 4c, you would claim VS).
And your 'favourite grade' is the one at which you most enjoy climbing.
So, for me
(comfort, lead, second, favourite)=(VS,HVS,E2,HS).
But what I'm really interested in are your lead, second and favourite grades relative to your comfort grade - how much do you like to push the envelope? Do you enjoy climbing at your limit? Do you prefer to follow harder climbers up tough stuff? So if we list the grades as Mod, Diff, VD, S, HS, VS HVS, E1, E2, ..., then my results would be
(VS, VS+1, VS+3, VS-1) or just (VS,1,3,-1).
I realise this might only appeal to the 'logbook and graphs' contingent, of which I am unashamedly a member...
Your 'lead grade' is the hardest grade you've lead onsight.
Your 'second grade' is given by taking the adjectival grade which corresponds to the highest technical grade you've seconded clean. (So you can't claim E4 if you've seconded an E4 4c, you would claim VS).
And your 'favourite grade' is the one at which you most enjoy climbing.
So, for me
(comfort, lead, second, favourite)=(VS,HVS,E2,HS).
But what I'm really interested in are your lead, second and favourite grades relative to your comfort grade - how much do you like to push the envelope? Do you enjoy climbing at your limit? Do you prefer to follow harder climbers up tough stuff? So if we list the grades as Mod, Diff, VD, S, HS, VS HVS, E1, E2, ..., then my results would be
(VS, VS+1, VS+3, VS-1) or just (VS,1,3,-1).
I realise this might only appeal to the 'logbook and graphs' contingent, of which I am unashamedly a member...
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
LOL. I am a big fan of bar charts myself.
> I realise this might only appeal to the 'logbook and graphs' contingent, of which I am unashamedly a member...
LOL. I am a big fan of bar charts myself.
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
How about warm up grade, 'proper' climbing grade, and near the end of the day can't be arsed grade?
VS, HVS, VDiff.
How about warm up grade, 'proper' climbing grade, and near the end of the day can't be arsed grade?
VS, HVS, VDiff.
In reply to crossdressingrodney: Would be interesting to see whether leading grades form a U-shaped normal distribution. Pretty sure mine would - i.e. a few Diffs, loads of VSs, and a few E3s.
In reply to Fiend:
Are you the guy who supplied Victim of Mathematics with the excel spreadsheet logbook that I've been using? So many graphs...
Are you the guy who supplied Victim of Mathematics with the excel spreadsheet logbook that I've been using? So many graphs...
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
Hmm, well
Comfort - S
Lead - VS
Second - HVS
Favourite - Hs/VS
I don't really second harder than I lead. If I can physically do the moves, I can lead the route. I don't get worried about falling, or being run out, or see that leading is different because you have to stop to place gear (since seconding, you have to stop to remove it).
Maybe that's why my favourite grades are above the comfort grade - I want to get better, I AM getting better, but that's by pushing myself to lead things, not by following others.
Hmm, well
Comfort - S
Lead - VS
Second - HVS
Favourite - Hs/VS
I don't really second harder than I lead. If I can physically do the moves, I can lead the route. I don't get worried about falling, or being run out, or see that leading is different because you have to stop to place gear (since seconding, you have to stop to remove it).
Maybe that's why my favourite grades are above the comfort grade - I want to get better, I AM getting better, but that's by pushing myself to lead things, not by following others.
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
comfort hvs, lead e2, 2nd e1, fave vs
this tells me my mates need to start leading harder
comfort hvs, lead e2, 2nd e1, fave vs
this tells me my mates need to start leading harder
In reply to Marc C:
More of an n-shaped one I guess? Looking at my previously graphed out grades, the bell-shape is spoiled by the made-up grades of MVS, MS, HVD.
More of an n-shaped one I guess? Looking at my previously graphed out grades, the bell-shape is spoiled by the made-up grades of MVS, MS, HVD.
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
I'm surprised how close your comfort and hardest lead grade are. Generally I think a person's hardest lead grade is quite a lit higher, owing to be able to choose routes that 'suit' them.
For me:
(comfort, lead, second, favourite)=(VS,E3,E2,VS).
I'm surprised how close your comfort and hardest lead grade are. Generally I think a person's hardest lead grade is quite a lit higher, owing to be able to choose routes that 'suit' them.
For me:
(comfort, lead, second, favourite)=(VS,E3,E2,VS).
In reply to Anonymous:
heh, maybe.
In reply to all:
I guess a (probably depressing) extension would be to add in the grade you should be able to climb, if only you could transfer your indoor grade to the real world!
heh, maybe.
In reply to all:
I guess a (probably depressing) extension would be to add in the grade you should be able to climb, if only you could transfer your indoor grade to the real world!
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
prob
comfort: e1,
lead: e2,
second: e4, f
favourite: e1 again!
Although I haven't done as much trad as i would like so this may be misleading but hey!
prob
comfort: e1,
lead: e2,
second: e4, f
favourite: e1 again!
Although I haven't done as much trad as i would like so this may be misleading but hey!
In reply to Jimmy D:
A combination of stuff: cowardice; the fact that I like to have a bit of ability 'in hand' in case I get sandbagged; my regular partner doesn't like HVS; the fact that my tick list of 2200 routes is all at VS or below and I really need to concentrate on climbing them or I won't get them all done before I die.
I shall of course add weightings to each of these reasons and create a pie chart.
> (In reply to crossdressingrodney)
>
> I'm surprised how close your comfort and hardest lead grade are.
>
> I'm surprised how close your comfort and hardest lead grade are.
A combination of stuff: cowardice; the fact that I like to have a bit of ability 'in hand' in case I get sandbagged; my regular partner doesn't like HVS; the fact that my tick list of 2200 routes is all at VS or below and I really need to concentrate on climbing them or I won't get them all done before I die.
I shall of course add weightings to each of these reasons and create a pie chart.
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
ok then...
comfort: VS
lead: E3
Second: I've not seconded above E1 n i dont top rope stuff (not that ive got too much against it before the rants come in!).
fav: HS (or realy long diff solos)
I think a lot depends on the tech grad tho.
ok then...
comfort: VS
lead: E3
Second: I've not seconded above E1 n i dont top rope stuff (not that ive got too much against it before the rants come in!).
fav: HS (or realy long diff solos)
I think a lot depends on the tech grad tho.
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
(VD,2,3,1)
Not been climbing that long so moving through the grades (quite slowly).
(VD,2,3,1)
Not been climbing that long so moving through the grades (quite slowly).
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
Well since I've actually read the thread....
(number don't matter, only the difference does).
Comfort = C
Lead: C+2
Second: C
Favourite: C+2 when I actually do it, otherwise C.
I often try to push myself for various reasons, the main one being the routes that most inspire me often for reasons other than the challenge are ones which will be challenging. And, I don't tend to second stuff that I'd want to lead - I prefer seconding at C-2 I think .
Well since I've actually read the thread....
(number don't matter, only the difference does).
Comfort = C
Lead: C+2
Second: C
Favourite: C+2 when I actually do it, otherwise C.
I often try to push myself for various reasons, the main one being the routes that most inspire me often for reasons other than the challenge are ones which will be challenging. And, I don't tend to second stuff that I'd want to lead - I prefer seconding at C-2 I think .
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
Comfort: VS (tho might not say that when I have a go at The File!)
Lead: E3
Second: E3
Favourite: HVS
Comfort: VS (tho might not say that when I have a go at The File!)
Lead: E3
Second: E3
Favourite: HVS
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
Interesting topic. Not at all suggesting you do, but I have found people can have quite different criteria for judging what grade they are 'comfortable' at. For me, it means the grade at which I could do a clean lead of any route (maybe with one or two exceptions, to allow for the fact that I failed on one VS last year!) on any rock type, on sea cliffs, mountains, roadside crags, or wherever. Some people are more inclined to mean the grade they 'usually' climb at, which might be on single pitch crags of a particular tock type.
Interesting topic. Not at all suggesting you do, but I have found people can have quite different criteria for judging what grade they are 'comfortable' at. For me, it means the grade at which I could do a clean lead of any route (maybe with one or two exceptions, to allow for the fact that I failed on one VS last year!) on any rock type, on sea cliffs, mountains, roadside crags, or wherever. Some people are more inclined to mean the grade they 'usually' climb at, which might be on single pitch crags of a particular tock type.
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
Interesting question. I'm not climbing enough at the moment to give a clear answer, but it would have been:
Comfort VS- HVS
Lead E2
Second E1/2
Favourite VS-HVS
Basically my harder leads are all aberrations. I have only done maybe a dozen E2s and all when I was mainly leading HVS. Oh, and then there was the day I did Chalkstorm....
John
Interesting question. I'm not climbing enough at the moment to give a clear answer, but it would have been:
Comfort VS- HVS
Lead E2
Second E1/2
Favourite VS-HVS
Basically my harder leads are all aberrations. I have only done maybe a dozen E2s and all when I was mainly leading HVS. Oh, and then there was the day I did Chalkstorm....
John
In reply to Marc C:
Ha, I was thinking of the File when I put ' pretty certain to succeed' in the definition!
Ha, I was thinking of the File when I put ' pretty certain to succeed' in the definition!
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
Ha ha indeed - guess which peak VS accounted my allowable exception!
Ha ha indeed - guess which peak VS accounted my allowable exception!
In reply to Jimmy D:
Right, I use the first definition too. As I wrote:
"your 'comfort grade' is the highest grade at which you could be pretty certain to successfully lead onsight (trad, of course), given good weather and no injuries. So you can claim VDiff if you reckon you could climb pretty much any VDiff in the UK I pointed you at."
Right, I use the first definition too. As I wrote:
"your 'comfort grade' is the highest grade at which you could be pretty certain to successfully lead onsight (trad, of course), given good weather and no injuries. So you can claim VDiff if you reckon you could climb pretty much any VDiff in the UK I pointed you at."
In reply to crossdressingrodney: depends really at what grade you have been constant at
mine is
comfort-E2/E3
Lead -E5
Favourite- E1's/E2's and loooong easy solos
mine is
comfort-E2/E3
Lead -E5
Favourite- E1's/E2's and loooong easy solos
In reply to crossdressingrodney: Hah! Think Jimmy D's right when he says a lot depends on the style of climb - not just the grade. There are many 5b slabs or 5c aretes I'd sooner lead than some VS cracks!
In reply to Moacs:
Same here! Hence the large comfort/hardest lead difference.
> (In reply to crossdressingrodney)
> Basically my harder leads are all aberrations.
Same here! Hence the large comfort/hardest lead difference.
In reply to crossdressingrodney: according to your criteria:
Comfort: VS (Im pretty confident on HVS but not sure Id say I could definitely climb any in the country!)
Lead: E2
Second: E2 (I have cleanly seconded an E4 but it was only 5c and I dont think Ive ever seconded cleanly a 6a)
Favorite: HVS/E1
Comfort: VS (Im pretty confident on HVS but not sure Id say I could definitely climb any in the country!)
Lead: E2
Second: E2 (I have cleanly seconded an E4 but it was only 5c and I dont think Ive ever seconded cleanly a 6a)
Favorite: HVS/E1
In reply to Marc C:
That's true. In fact if I threw myself at more 4c jamming cracks I'm sure I'd end up down-sizing my comfort grade!
Also, from my definition it does not follow that one will climb comfortably at one's comfort grade. I frequently struggle on VS jamming cracks, but am so determined to remain ignorant as to whether my gear placements are any good I always get a clean ascent. Fear is much more powerful than positive mental attitiude.
That's true. In fact if I threw myself at more 4c jamming cracks I'm sure I'd end up down-sizing my comfort grade!
Also, from my definition it does not follow that one will climb comfortably at one's comfort grade. I frequently struggle on VS jamming cracks, but am so determined to remain ignorant as to whether my gear placements are any good I always get a clean ascent. Fear is much more powerful than positive mental attitiude.
In reply to Si dH: What surprises me is how many people "favorite" grade is below their comfort grade. Eitehr they are counting their comfort grade as the one they normally lead rather than what they could confidently climb any route at, or they don't enjoy pushing themselves. Although I do enjoy easier routes, especially big long ones, I get much more out of a route if I find at least some of it to be a decent challenge. As I put my comfort grade would be VS, but in all honesty I'd never bother climbing a single pitch VS except maybe as a warm-up if there wasnt an HVS I was happy warming up on - I just don't see the point. Even on mountain routes, big VSs etc are good fun but I'd still rather so an HVS or E1.
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
Good man! That really is the spirit!
> (In reply to Marc C)
> I frequently struggle on VS jamming cracks, but am so determined to remain ignorant as to whether my gear placements are any good I always get a clean ascent. Fear is much more powerful than positive mental attitiude.
Good man! That really is the spirit!
In reply to cider nut:
...as you'd expect from someone who likes chimneys and offwidths.
> but front and back switched.
...as you'd expect from someone who likes chimneys and offwidths.
In reply to Si dH:
Well, personally, my favourite kind of route is the long mountain HS/VS on which I know I am capable of doing every move, but having to string them together in a remote place with a bit of exposure makes it seem challenging while still being safe (enough). Since these routes are not made of gritstone, I can relax and enjoy the climbing. Also it's harder to hit floor.
Well, personally, my favourite kind of route is the long mountain HS/VS on which I know I am capable of doing every move, but having to string them together in a remote place with a bit of exposure makes it seem challenging while still being safe (enough). Since these routes are not made of gritstone, I can relax and enjoy the climbing. Also it's harder to hit floor.
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
Fair enough. I enjoy big long mountain routes the most too, just the ones I enjoy the very most are the ones that push me hard too
Fair enough. I enjoy big long mountain routes the most too, just the ones I enjoy the very most are the ones that push me hard too
In reply to Si dH: I'm surprised at how many people have a second grade harder than their lead grade. Does everyone climb always climb with people 'harder' than them?
btw I'm in the like to push myself camp with C, C+2, C+2, C+2
btw I'm in the like to push myself camp with C, C+2, C+2, C+2
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
I've always led and seconded at exactly the same grade. I don't mind falling off (as long as I don't hit anything, obviously). And I climb better on lead than when seconding.
I never thought in terms of "comfortable" grade, especially since I would definitely be more comfortable on a mid E grade face route than a VS off-width (or a VD chimney for that matter) ... a sad state of affairs confirmed once again yesterday, during a run-in with an overhanging offwidth/ chimney (amusingly graded F6a, and yes such a thing does exist in France).
I've always led and seconded at exactly the same grade. I don't mind falling off (as long as I don't hit anything, obviously). And I climb better on lead than when seconding.
I never thought in terms of "comfortable" grade, especially since I would definitely be more comfortable on a mid E grade face route than a VS off-width (or a VD chimney for that matter) ... a sad state of affairs confirmed once again yesterday, during a run-in with an overhanging offwidth/ chimney (amusingly graded F6a, and yes such a thing does exist in France).
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
Comfort - HVS
Lead - E1
Second - E3
Favourite - HVS
Hard to say my lead grade, generally im onsighting E1 right now but at Arapiles and in New Zealand i onsighted 3 22's (british climbing partners placed these routes between hard E2 and hard E3). I was feeling uber confident and climbing very well then, but E1 is probably my standard onsight.
Comfort - HVS
Lead - E1
Second - E3
Favourite - HVS
Hard to say my lead grade, generally im onsighting E1 right now but at Arapiles and in New Zealand i onsighted 3 22's (british climbing partners placed these routes between hard E2 and hard E3). I was feeling uber confident and climbing very well then, but E1 is probably my standard onsight.
something like: E2,2,4-6,0
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
This has led me to wonder how many people in the UK have a 'comfort grade' of, say, E4 or higher? In other words how many people could onsight cleanly 95 out of 100 randomly chosen E4s. They would really have to be a pretty good all round climber. Are we talking hundreds? Possibly thousands?
What about E5? E6? E2?
This has led me to wonder how many people in the UK have a 'comfort grade' of, say, E4 or higher? In other words how many people could onsight cleanly 95 out of 100 randomly chosen E4s. They would really have to be a pretty good all round climber. Are we talking hundreds? Possibly thousands?
What about E5? E6? E2?
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
Comfort = VS
Lead = E2
2nd = HVS
Fav = VS/HVS
Suspect this will be a fairly standard answer from puntersville
Comfort = VS
Lead = E2
2nd = HVS
Fav = VS/HVS
Suspect this will be a fairly standard answer from puntersville
In reply to crossdressingrodney: At E4 you are talking a lot of climbers - hundreds if not thousands. At E5, and very definitely at E6, I think you'd find the pool substantially smaller - especially if your criteria is being able to do 95% of all routes of that grade.
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
Comfort: E1
OS Lead: E2
Second: UK 6a (E grades mean little here)
Fun: HVS/E1
Pretty well grouped grades, probably because I no longer live near the grit so don't tend to push myself on the local crumbly trad.
Comfort: E1
OS Lead: E2
Second: UK 6a (E grades mean little here)
Fun: HVS/E1
Pretty well grouped grades, probably because I no longer live near the grit so don't tend to push myself on the local crumbly trad.
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
At the moment (after a lay off off 18 months ...
Comfort HS
Lead HVS
Second - British 5c??
Favourite VS
Im mostly leading VS as much as possible at the moment as Im trying to get back to somehting slightly harder. Im right on the limit usually after placing gear, as I simply dont have any stamina anymore. Ive printed out the metolius fingerboard training after a fierce battle with plumbline at running hill pits at the weekend, so I can go back for a rematch...!
At the moment (after a lay off off 18 months ...
Comfort HS
Lead HVS
Second - British 5c??
Favourite VS
Im mostly leading VS as much as possible at the moment as Im trying to get back to somehting slightly harder. Im right on the limit usually after placing gear, as I simply dont have any stamina anymore. Ive printed out the metolius fingerboard training after a fierce battle with plumbline at running hill pits at the weekend, so I can go back for a rematch...!
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
Comfort HS/VS
Lead HVS/E1
Second HVS/E1
Favourite VDiff (Lots of great classics in this grade!)
Comfort HS/VS
Lead HVS/E1
Second HVS/E1
Favourite VDiff (Lots of great classics in this grade!)
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
Why do i get sucked into these things ?
At least it's not just me :0)
Comfort HVS
Lead E1
Second VS
Favourite HVS
Interesting results - it appears i am doing all the hard work.
Why do i get sucked into these things ?
At least it's not just me :0)
Comfort HVS
Lead E1
Second VS
Favourite HVS
Interesting results - it appears i am doing all the hard work.
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
Personally (S,VS,E1,VS). It's jamming routes that bring the comfort grade down as I'd expect to do most non-jamming HS routes. VS is both my hardest and favourite grade for two reasons a) I enjoy pushing myself and b) I'm wanting to do my first HVS lead in the next few weeks.
Personally (S,VS,E1,VS). It's jamming routes that bring the comfort grade down as I'd expect to do most non-jamming HS routes. VS is both my hardest and favourite grade for two reasons a) I enjoy pushing myself and b) I'm wanting to do my first HVS lead in the next few weeks.
In reply to biscuit:
Comfort HS/VS
lead E1
Second E2/3 (whatever top end 5c is..)
fave HS/VS
the last will probably go up to match my comfort level which is the one where I will start a long mountain route with the crux high.
Comfort HS/VS
lead E1
Second E2/3 (whatever top end 5c is..)
fave HS/VS
the last will probably go up to match my comfort level which is the one where I will start a long mountain route with the crux high.
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
So you can claim VDiff if you reckon you could climb pretty much any VDiff in the UK I pointed you at.
So you can claim VDiff if you reckon you could climb pretty much any VDiff in the UK I pointed you at.
>
>
Gritstone V Diff chimneys excepted, of course >
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
Hmm, interesting.
I backed off a HVD earlier this year, and then went and led (re-led, as it happens) a VS 4c. The only VS I'd ever led.
I'm not usually bothered by exposed climbs, but the HVD was a nightmare at the top section, and the two bits of pro in the first 15metres were crap. Plus someone had been gardening (with a chainsaw) and the "escape to the tree" in the route description was no longer there...
On more generally regarded, and more frequently climbed routes, then I've soloed onsight some Severes, but lead HS - so far without any problem, other than Janker's Crack at Froggat, which I tried before even leading a Severe. Bad mistake.
I've seconded a couple of HVS routes, one of which (The Grogan) I have no intention of going anywhere near again, and one of which (Surface Plate) I intend to lead next time I'm there (whether I've led any more VS routes or not)
Dunno where this puts me in your pidgeonhole...
Hmm, interesting.
I backed off a HVD earlier this year, and then went and led (re-led, as it happens) a VS 4c. The only VS I'd ever led.
I'm not usually bothered by exposed climbs, but the HVD was a nightmare at the top section, and the two bits of pro in the first 15metres were crap. Plus someone had been gardening (with a chainsaw) and the "escape to the tree" in the route description was no longer there...
On more generally regarded, and more frequently climbed routes, then I've soloed onsight some Severes, but lead HS - so far without any problem, other than Janker's Crack at Froggat, which I tried before even leading a Severe. Bad mistake.
I've seconded a couple of HVS routes, one of which (The Grogan) I have no intention of going anywhere near again, and one of which (Surface Plate) I intend to lead next time I'm there (whether I've led any more VS routes or not)
Dunno where this puts me in your pidgeonhole...
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
Comfort E1, lead E6, second - gosh, probably E4, favourite I wouldn't assign by grade.
This is historic btw: now it would be VS for all four, although I expect I could follow the occasional HVS if pushed.
jcm
Comfort E1, lead E6, second - gosh, probably E4, favourite I wouldn't assign by grade.
This is historic btw: now it would be VS for all four, although I expect I could follow the occasional HVS if pushed.
jcm
In reply to ChrisJD:
Comfort=C
Lead=C+2
second= prefferably less than (C-1),or I'd want to lead it
Fav.= anything bigger than c where success is achieved
Comfort=C
Lead=C+2
second= prefferably less than (C-1),or I'd want to lead it
Fav.= anything bigger than c where success is achieved
In reply to crossdressingrodney: Obviously this changes with how fit/old/determined you are at the time, I reckon at the moment mine is HVS, I have always been able to lead VS even after mega long lay offs but my hardest lead has been E5, albeit a long time ago.
In reply to Steve Ramsden: The last hard lead was probably Dextrous Hare, E3 with Gerry about 2 years ago, incidently, but I have lead E2 since then, but its never a certain outcome these days.
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
comfort: VS
lead: HVS
second: E3
favourite VS or HVS
I like leading at my limit (but only when things are not too scary) I have only done HVS 5b's so far so thinking that my favourite will be HVS 5a
comfort: VS
lead: HVS
second: E3
favourite VS or HVS
I like leading at my limit (but only when things are not too scary) I have only done HVS 5b's so far so thinking that my favourite will be HVS 5a
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
VD, E2, E5, HVS.
Plus I think you are either inexperienced or telling porkies about your comfort grade.
Also your lead grade is a grade you will normally succeed at not your best, which oddly enough is your hardest lead.
VD, E2, E5, HVS.
Plus I think you are either inexperienced or telling porkies about your comfort grade.
Also your lead grade is a grade you will normally succeed at not your best, which oddly enough is your hardest lead.
In reply to Offwidth:
I'd add I think if it wasnt for sandbags I think the rule would be something like C C+4, C+6. I dont think I know an experienced climber good enough as an allrounder and consistent enough to make anything like C C+1, C+3 as you defined it.
I'd add I think if it wasnt for sandbags I think the rule would be something like C C+4, C+6. I dont think I know an experienced climber good enough as an allrounder and consistent enough to make anything like C C+1, C+3 as you defined it.
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
There's room for improvement in your leading if your seconding grade is harder (bold routes aside). Taking out runners is just as strenuous as putting them in.
There's room for improvement in your leading if your seconding grade is harder (bold routes aside). Taking out runners is just as strenuous as putting them in.
For me, I'm probably at (S, VS, E1, HS), though if you let me pretend there is no rock other than grit, then I might let myself have HS as my comfort grade. Possibly.
Offwidth: If we're being pedantic, I'm sure there are some sandbag diffs out there that would stop me in my tracks, either because they are woefully undergraded or they are gearless slabs (give me a nice thrutchy chimney/jamming crack any day). But I think to therefore claim that my comfort grade is therefore mod probably devalues the point of this discussion. Not to underestimate your knowledge as a master sandbagger, mind. Having climbed a lot with crossdressingrodney I can confirm that VS is probably a fair assessment of his comfort grade as defined. He does have a bit of a grit aversion, but that's something I'm trying to train him out of...
crossdressingrodney: Oi! I don't mind seconding you up HVSs. As long as they have holds and aren't overhanging. And I'm in a good mood... Don't use me as an excuse for your punterdom. Anyway, what about the E1 you soloed? Or does soloing not count under lead grade? I won't tell anybody it was on a small rock in Leicestershire if you don't...
Offwidth: If we're being pedantic, I'm sure there are some sandbag diffs out there that would stop me in my tracks, either because they are woefully undergraded or they are gearless slabs (give me a nice thrutchy chimney/jamming crack any day). But I think to therefore claim that my comfort grade is therefore mod probably devalues the point of this discussion. Not to underestimate your knowledge as a master sandbagger, mind. Having climbed a lot with crossdressingrodney I can confirm that VS is probably a fair assessment of his comfort grade as defined. He does have a bit of a grit aversion, but that's something I'm trying to train him out of...
crossdressingrodney: Oi! I don't mind seconding you up HVSs. As long as they have holds and aren't overhanging. And I'm in a good mood... Don't use me as an excuse for your punterdom. Anyway, what about the E1 you soloed? Or does soloing not count under lead grade? I won't tell anybody it was on a small rock in Leicestershire if you don't...
In reply to victim of mathematics: What I find interesting here is how often peoples seconding grade is way above their leading grade. Except in rare cases of terminal leads mine is mostly the same, the only way, surely, that your leading grade is way below your seconding grade is if you dont really second them, i.e you have a pull/tight rope.
In that case I could claim much harder having been pulled up stuff by Ron and Tom but you know in your heart of hearts you have not really done it. The grade you second has to be on a slack rope, in which case you can lead it if the pro isnt too sketchy!
In that case I could claim much harder having been pulled up stuff by Ron and Tom but you know in your heart of hearts you have not really done it. The grade you second has to be on a slack rope, in which case you can lead it if the pro isnt too sketchy!
In reply to Al Evans:
I'm not surprised about big seconding grades as adjectival grades are meaningless for most routes when seconding: the technical grade (or better still French grade) gives a more useful measure. I agree being pulled up as a second dont count (and in fact are bad news as 'flailing' on hard routes damages them).
In reply to victim of mathmatics
Semantics it may be in part but in my experience too many mid-grade climbers talk a good game and lack in important skills. I used to kid myself until Lynn and I worked weaknesses to be able to cope with big VS and HVS routes abroad (very much at our limit as a team). My guess is that Mr Cross would fail on a significant proportion of grit VS climbs picked at random from a guide thats not comfort and its nothing to do with sandbags: thats the reality and variety of climbing (especially on gritstone). If he wouldnt fail on these then he's not pushing himself hard enough on his hard leads. The difference between comfort on stuff you dont like and a hard route that suits your style is big.
I'm not surprised about big seconding grades as adjectival grades are meaningless for most routes when seconding: the technical grade (or better still French grade) gives a more useful measure. I agree being pulled up as a second dont count (and in fact are bad news as 'flailing' on hard routes damages them).
In reply to victim of mathmatics
Semantics it may be in part but in my experience too many mid-grade climbers talk a good game and lack in important skills. I used to kid myself until Lynn and I worked weaknesses to be able to cope with big VS and HVS routes abroad (very much at our limit as a team). My guess is that Mr Cross would fail on a significant proportion of grit VS climbs picked at random from a guide thats not comfort and its nothing to do with sandbags: thats the reality and variety of climbing (especially on gritstone). If he wouldnt fail on these then he's not pushing himself hard enough on his hard leads. The difference between comfort on stuff you dont like and a hard route that suits your style is big.
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
Lead 5c, but not E5 or E4
Might manage to lead E3 6a, but will probably fall off. Bound to fall off E4 6a (I think - haven't tried for a while)
Generally find seconding harder, because I faff and hurry.
Often scare myself on VS/HVS - and frequently find them awkward. So happy on E1, E2, E3
Lead 5c, but not E5 or E4
Might manage to lead E3 6a, but will probably fall off. Bound to fall off E4 6a (I think - haven't tried for a while)
Generally find seconding harder, because I faff and hurry.
Often scare myself on VS/HVS - and frequently find them awkward. So happy on E1, E2, E3
In reply to Offwidth:
I've climbed 100 or so VSs of which 75-80 would have been trad leads, all clean onsight bar a couple of repeat ascents, no falls. And they weren't cherry picked, at least for the last year or so. I've only ever failed on two, one of which was my first climb at the grade and one which was ridiculous (6a maybe? Dunno, couldn't get off the ground). So from that I reckon I could climb 'pretty much any VS' or whatever my words were. And, yes, I'm sure you can suggest a nice list of sand bags for me.
Well, perhaps I should have called it something else. I'm not really motivated to go searching out hard routes I think I might be able to climb, for some reason. I prefer to operate in my comfort zone. I've only done 20 odd HVS routes, and they were mostly cherry-picked so I don't know whether I'd 'normally succeed' or not. Probably if I were free to choose them, probably not if you picked them at random.
> Plus I think you are either inexperienced or telling porkies about your comfort grade.
I've climbed 100 or so VSs of which 75-80 would have been trad leads, all clean onsight bar a couple of repeat ascents, no falls. And they weren't cherry picked, at least for the last year or so. I've only ever failed on two, one of which was my first climb at the grade and one which was ridiculous (6a maybe? Dunno, couldn't get off the ground). So from that I reckon I could climb 'pretty much any VS' or whatever my words were. And, yes, I'm sure you can suggest a nice list of sand bags for me.
> Also your lead grade is a grade you will normally succeed at not your best, which oddly enough is your hardest lead.
Well, perhaps I should have called it something else. I'm not really motivated to go searching out hard routes I think I might be able to climb, for some reason. I prefer to operate in my comfort zone. I've only done 20 odd HVS routes, and they were mostly cherry-picked so I don't know whether I'd 'normally succeed' or not. Probably if I were free to choose them, probably not if you picked them at random.
In reply to ellis:
Yeah, but it's mentally totally different. I do admire those who have very similar lead and second grades. Regardless there is room for improvement in my leading.
> There's room for improvement in your leading if your seconding grade is harder (bold routes aside). Taking out runners is just as strenuous as putting them in.
Yeah, but it's mentally totally different. I do admire those who have very similar lead and second grades. Regardless there is room for improvement in my leading.
In reply to victim of mathematics:
OK, I take that back. i suppose you moan about following HVS less than I moan about being stuck in another effin' jamming crack...
Soloing does count for lead grade, but that Leicestershire thing was more of a boulder problem.
> crossdressingrodney: Oi! I don't mind seconding you up HVSs. As long as they have holds and aren't overhanging. And I'm in a good mood... Don't use me as an excuse for your punterdom. Anyway, what about the E1 you soloed? Or does soloing not count under lead grade? I won't tell anybody it was on a small rock in Leicestershire if you don't...
OK, I take that back. i suppose you moan about following HVS less than I moan about being stuck in another effin' jamming crack...
Soloing does count for lead grade, but that Leicestershire thing was more of a boulder problem.
In reply to Al Evans:
No, you need to factor in gear-placing skills and cowardice.
Agreed. But pro is irrelevant, since your 'second grade' here is defined as the E grade that corresponds to the technical grade, not the actual E grade of the route.
> (In reply to victim of mathematics) What I find interesting here is how often peoples seconding grade is way above their leading grade. Except in rare cases of terminal leads mine is mostly the same, the only way, surely, that your leading grade is way below your seconding grade is if you dont really second them, i.e you have a pull/tight rope.
No, you need to factor in gear-placing skills and cowardice.
> The grade you second has to be on a slack rope, in which case you can lead it if the pro isnt too sketchy!
Agreed. But pro is irrelevant, since your 'second grade' here is defined as the E grade that corresponds to the technical grade, not the actual E grade of the route.
In reply to Offwidth:
I did account for that in the definition of 'second grade'.
Should my ears be burning?!
Based on what evidence? The fact that my lead proper lead is only HVS?
I don't have to push myself, you know! I could just enjoy climbing at my comfort grade.
> I'm not surprised about big seconding grades as adjectival grades are meaningless for most routes when seconding: the technical grade (or better still French grade) gives a more useful measure.
I did account for that in the definition of 'second grade'.
> Semantics it may be in part but in my experience too many mid-grade climbers talk a good game and lack in important skills.
Should my ears be burning?!
> My guess is that Mr Cross would fail on a significant proportion of grit VS climbs picked at random from a guide thats not comfort and its nothing to do with sandbags: thats the reality and variety of climbing (especially on gritstone).
Based on what evidence? The fact that my lead proper lead is only HVS?
> If he wouldnt fail on these then he's not pushing himself hard enough on his hard leads.
I don't have to push myself, you know! I could just enjoy climbing at my comfort grade.
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
These 100 where were they and what guidebooks did you use? (the crags that people tend to go to at first are not always average and people unconciously avoid stuff they dont like the look of). Anyway by the sounds of it your hardest lead should be at least 2 grades higher (still inexperienced and not yet trying hard enough) I regularly fail on VS routes that are just hard and dont suit me (ie not just the sandbags) and yet have onsighted E2. I've lost touch with how many VS climbs Ive led but its somewhere in the thousands and Ive failed (or cheated or dogged etc) on several hundred.
These 100 where were they and what guidebooks did you use? (the crags that people tend to go to at first are not always average and people unconciously avoid stuff they dont like the look of). Anyway by the sounds of it your hardest lead should be at least 2 grades higher (still inexperienced and not yet trying hard enough) I regularly fail on VS routes that are just hard and dont suit me (ie not just the sandbags) and yet have onsighted E2. I've lost touch with how many VS climbs Ive led but its somewhere in the thousands and Ive failed (or cheated or dogged etc) on several hundred.
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
"> Semantics it may be in part but in my experience too many mid-grade climbers talk a good game and lack in important skills.
Should my ears be burning?! "
Only if your graph stays the same after your next few hundred VS leads. After reading all this you seem very honest to me..
"I don't have to push myself, you know! I could just enjoy climbing at my comfort grade."
Sure but thats not much fun and wont get you very far in brilliant climbing venues Ive enjoyed like Yosemite, Tuolumne, Red Rocks, Utah, Joshua Tree, Pyrenees, Costa Blanca (and even the bigger blocks at Font).
"> Semantics it may be in part but in my experience too many mid-grade climbers talk a good game and lack in important skills.
Should my ears be burning?! "
Only if your graph stays the same after your next few hundred VS leads. After reading all this you seem very honest to me..
"I don't have to push myself, you know! I could just enjoy climbing at my comfort grade."
Sure but thats not much fun and wont get you very far in brilliant climbing venues Ive enjoyed like Yosemite, Tuolumne, Red Rocks, Utah, Joshua Tree, Pyrenees, Costa Blanca (and even the bigger blocks at Font).
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
I'm very sure some of the Severe and HS climbs you've led the average 'comfort' VS leader wouldnt go near with a barge pole. Each to their own of course in terms of their climbing aims but to serially avoid trying harder routes is a bit odd for a climber. In some respects I hope you never change as I do quite like odd: its refreshing and makes you think differently.
I'm using 'fun' in its normal broad climbing sense of course: the joy of succeeding in risky situations on something that is a challenge to you.
I'm very sure some of the Severe and HS climbs you've led the average 'comfort' VS leader wouldnt go near with a barge pole. Each to their own of course in terms of their climbing aims but to serially avoid trying harder routes is a bit odd for a climber. In some respects I hope you never change as I do quite like odd: its refreshing and makes you think differently.
I'm using 'fun' in its normal broad climbing sense of course: the joy of succeeding in risky situations on something that is a challenge to you.
In reply to Offwidth:
Langdale (FRCC), Borrowdale (FRCC), Dow, Duddon and Slate (FRCC), Lancashire Rock (BMC), PGE + Western Grit, On Peak Rock, Littlejohn's SW climbs or whatever its called, some other cornish guide, Staffordshire Grit, Northen Highlands North and South, Llanberis Pass, Ogwen +Carnnedau, Tremadog, not sure which Pembroke/Gower guide. Also on grit Victim of Mathematics will have had some definitive guides but I'm not sure which. Oh, and that Steve Ashton guide to grit/limestone.
I'm sure if I looked carefully for a route that suited my style I could lead a few well-protected 5cs (so maybe tick a couple of E1's, maybe an E2). But I don't particularly want to. I don't get out on rock as much as I'd like to (ideally 5 out of every 7 days would be good I think) so i prefer to spend my precious time on what i enjoy most: HS/VS.
Thousands, wow! But you've cheated on around 10%? Really? Is there a type of climb that you really don't like? And do you seek it out on purpose?
> These 100 where were they and what guidebooks did you use? (the crags that people tend to go to at first are not always average and people unconciously avoid stuff they dont like the look of).
Langdale (FRCC), Borrowdale (FRCC), Dow, Duddon and Slate (FRCC), Lancashire Rock (BMC), PGE + Western Grit, On Peak Rock, Littlejohn's SW climbs or whatever its called, some other cornish guide, Staffordshire Grit, Northen Highlands North and South, Llanberis Pass, Ogwen +Carnnedau, Tremadog, not sure which Pembroke/Gower guide. Also on grit Victim of Mathematics will have had some definitive guides but I'm not sure which. Oh, and that Steve Ashton guide to grit/limestone.
> Anyway by the sounds of it your hardest lead should be at least 2 grades higher (still inexperienced and not yet trying hard enough)
I'm sure if I looked carefully for a route that suited my style I could lead a few well-protected 5cs (so maybe tick a couple of E1's, maybe an E2). But I don't particularly want to. I don't get out on rock as much as I'd like to (ideally 5 out of every 7 days would be good I think) so i prefer to spend my precious time on what i enjoy most: HS/VS.
> I regularly fail on VS routes that are just hard and dont suit me (ie not just the sandbags) and yet have onsighted E2. I've lost touch with how many VS climbs Ive led but its somewhere in the thousands and Ive failed (or cheated or dogged etc) on several hundred.
Thousands, wow! But you've cheated on around 10%? Really? Is there a type of climb that you really don't like? And do you seek it out on purpose?
In reply to Offwidth:
For a while I did seek out harder routes, but found I was having a miserable time failing, backing off, etc, rather than just getting on with enjoying myself.
Though I suppose the number of epics I talk myself into having on 'easy' routes just means that my comfort grade is lower than I like to think
For a while I did seek out harder routes, but found I was having a miserable time failing, backing off, etc, rather than just getting on with enjoying myself.
Though I suppose the number of epics I talk myself into having on 'easy' routes just means that my comfort grade is lower than I like to think
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Ah, but by the definition of 'comfort grade' for the purposes of this thread, it doesn't have to be comfortable! Every VS you climb could be in awful style with brown trousers; it's whether you succeed or not that matters.
Ah, but by the definition of 'comfort grade' for the purposes of this thread, it doesn't have to be comfortable! Every VS you climb could be in awful style with brown trousers; it's whether you succeed or not that matters.
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
I grade check whole crags then there is no avoiding anything. Oddly enough VS climbs in the peak where i climb most are nothing like as badly graded as the lower grade climbs. Most of the cheating was done on knarly well protected routes like jamming cracks tried a little too early in my carrear or when a bit too tired. I fail most on bold routes where I cant see the technical way through.
By the sound of it you've distorted your own graph on purpose but eventually you'll be tempted by a delicious looking E1: it happens to me and my main aim is to finish everything on a crag below VS.
I grade check whole crags then there is no avoiding anything. Oddly enough VS climbs in the peak where i climb most are nothing like as badly graded as the lower grade climbs. Most of the cheating was done on knarly well protected routes like jamming cracks tried a little too early in my carrear or when a bit too tired. I fail most on bold routes where I cant see the technical way through.
By the sound of it you've distorted your own graph on purpose but eventually you'll be tempted by a delicious looking E1: it happens to me and my main aim is to finish everything on a crag below VS.
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
I'd say do enough leading and you should be able to get within half a grade of your second grade. Otherwise you know you can improve just by thinking about it, or not thinking about it perhaps.
I'd say do enough leading and you should be able to get within half a grade of your second grade. Otherwise you know you can improve just by thinking about it, or not thinking about it perhaps.
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
Comfort VS, Lead E1, Hardest around 5C, Favourite HVS as thats when things start to get intersting...
Comfort VS, Lead E1, Hardest around 5C, Favourite HVS as thats when things start to get intersting...
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
Aye, the post was clear enough, I've just never been aware of climbing in a comfort zone.
Aye, the post was clear enough, I've just never been aware of climbing in a comfort zone.
In reply to Jonny Tee 69: Point is, as lots of people have pointed out on here, Does it really matter?
We all , I hope, climb for enjoyement unless we are sponsored, which eliminates most of us, so comfort is cool, thats why we do it isn't it?
We all , I hope, climb for enjoyement unless we are sponsored, which eliminates most of us, so comfort is cool, thats why we do it isn't it?
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
E2, E6, E4, E1 or
E2, +4, +2, -1
I think I need to start pushing my comfort grade up a bit tbh.
E1 gets my favourite as I generally solo and soloing E1 is almost always easier than soloing VS/HVS.
E2, E6, E4, E1 or
E2, +4, +2, -1
I think I need to start pushing my comfort grade up a bit tbh.
E1 gets my favourite as I generally solo and soloing E1 is almost always easier than soloing VS/HVS.
In reply to crossdressingrodney:
As only the difference is important.....
C, C+5, C+5, C+1 .... so I guess I'm a bit of a wimp most of the time (or occasionally find the odd soft touch slab)
As only the difference is important.....
C, C+5, C+5, C+1 .... so I guess I'm a bit of a wimp most of the time (or occasionally find the odd soft touch slab)
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