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I'm held back in climbing by my speed.. on multipitch I'm slick at all the belays /change overs etc.. but it still takes on average 40mins for a 40-50m pitch.. to lead and second.. (At a comfortable grade eg:VS)..
I think my record is 1.5 hr's for an 8m HVS.
Is it just confidence that makes you faster, do people just run out more or should i just amble on with what i can do?
I've been benighted and done a few night climbs b4 because of my speed and it's time i sorted my act out!
Top tips?
Matt
I think my record is 1.5 hr's for an 8m HVS.
Is it just confidence that makes you faster, do people just run out more or should i just amble on with what i can do?
I've been benighted and done a few night climbs b4 because of my speed and it's time i sorted my act out!
Top tips?
Matt
In reply to Mattyk: give up now, go rambling or something.
In reply to balls of cotton wool:
He already has already started on the road to decline (aka rambling)!!!
> "go rambling or something."
He already has already started on the road to decline (aka rambling)!!!
In reply to Mattyk: Don't listen to the detractors. I average 60m/hr when climbing can't seem to get any faster. If you finish the route and are alive at the end of the day, then you've done alright
In reply to gourd: bloody hell 60m/hr!! thats stamina, how do you avoid the pump? your forearms must make Steve McClure look feeble. Just think if you learned to climb fast you could be climbing Fr9a
In reply to Mattyk:
get your belayers to start telling you how long you've taken at 15 min intervals?!
sort of a serious suggestion - sometimes I suffer from the same problem - on hard stuff (for me) I sometimes have no conception about how slow I'm being - it doesn't feel slow to me, it just is. My partner has kind of got used to it and merely comments that he's amazed how long I can hang around on steep stuff...
get your belayers to start telling you how long you've taken at 15 min intervals?!
sort of a serious suggestion - sometimes I suffer from the same problem - on hard stuff (for me) I sometimes have no conception about how slow I'm being - it doesn't feel slow to me, it just is. My partner has kind of got used to it and merely comments that he's amazed how long I can hang around on steep stuff...
In reply to Mattyk:
Went to the Kendal Film festival and listened to Timmy O'Neal who simul-climbed the first 7 pitches of The Nose in 17 minutes.
Yeah, I thought bloody hell as well. However it does highlight the fact that you shouldn't fanny around more than necessary.
If you can climb faster you use less energy, which in turn should help towards raising your grades. Be a little bolder perhaps and settle for less gear, only bommer placements rather than marginal in-betweeners.
Climb 2 pitches at once, ie, on 2nd, then on lead for the next pitch = less gear swapping.
All said and done, don't sacrifice outright safety only to go fast to the bottom of the crag rather than the top!!
Went to the Kendal Film festival and listened to Timmy O'Neal who simul-climbed the first 7 pitches of The Nose in 17 minutes.
Yeah, I thought bloody hell as well. However it does highlight the fact that you shouldn't fanny around more than necessary.
If you can climb faster you use less energy, which in turn should help towards raising your grades. Be a little bolder perhaps and settle for less gear, only bommer placements rather than marginal in-betweeners.
Climb 2 pitches at once, ie, on 2nd, then on lead for the next pitch = less gear swapping.
All said and done, don't sacrifice outright safety only to go fast to the bottom of the crag rather than the top!!
In reply to Mattyk:
Basicly speed is down to confidence and experience.
1) Don't 'faff' on the crux.
We have all been confronted by a move we won't make. Tried every alternative, climbed and back up again, got pumped, then done it & wondered what the problem was all about.
2) Don't climb ignore easy gear placements.
Getting pumped trying to place gear on the crux because you have just cruised through the easy ground.
3) Slicker gear placement
Most people climb faster as the grade gets lower but a few climb at one speed irrespective of terrain.
If you just don't climb fast, try soloing/scrambling on easy rock. This will condition you to read the moves faster without the interuption of gear placement/removal.
If you are seconding at the same speed that you lead then this might apply to you.
What are you like in the Alps?
Basicly speed is down to confidence and experience.
1) Don't 'faff' on the crux.
We have all been confronted by a move we won't make. Tried every alternative, climbed and back up again, got pumped, then done it & wondered what the problem was all about.
2) Don't climb ignore easy gear placements.
Getting pumped trying to place gear on the crux because you have just cruised through the easy ground.
3) Slicker gear placement
Most people climb faster as the grade gets lower but a few climb at one speed irrespective of terrain.
If you just don't climb fast, try soloing/scrambling on easy rock. This will condition you to read the moves faster without the interuption of gear placement/removal.
If you are seconding at the same speed that you lead then this might apply to you.
What are you like in the Alps?
In reply to John I: I am quite fast on easyish terrain ... moved together on a diff on side of tryfan and got up it in 1.5hrs..
In alps though i have doubled recomended time.. so a different story On SE? ridge Argentiere although it had been upgraded from AD- to AD+
a friend decided to call a helicopter.. oh how we laughed!
In alps though i have doubled recomended time.. so a different story On SE? ridge Argentiere although it had been upgraded from AD- to AD+
a friend decided to call a helicopter.. oh how we laughed!
In reply to Mattyk: I like the idea of getting the second to shout every 15mins though because its amazing how long you hang on for even if it only seems like minutes you've been on a climb its usually hours!
In reply to Mattyk:
Assuming that you were really climbing together on something like First Pinnacle Arete, then 1.5hours isn't very fast (if you didn't get lost). It is about 100m/hr, compare that with your speed on a scramble.
Alpine guides assume that you are moving together on all III ground (including the odd move of IV).
So, if you are fit enough to approach huts in 75% of guidebook time, you should be climbing routes to guidebook time allowing for route-finding.
Most Brits are delayed by mode changes.
Terrain necessitating lengthening or shortening the rope, short pitches and abseils.
Assuming that you were really climbing together on something like First Pinnacle Arete, then 1.5hours isn't very fast (if you didn't get lost). It is about 100m/hr, compare that with your speed on a scramble.
Alpine guides assume that you are moving together on all III ground (including the odd move of IV).
So, if you are fit enough to approach huts in 75% of guidebook time, you should be climbing routes to guidebook time allowing for route-finding.
Most Brits are delayed by mode changes.
Terrain necessitating lengthening or shortening the rope, short pitches and abseils.
In reply to John I:
If you were to move together on the Idwall Slabs (Hope or Charity) which is slightly harder but with straightforward navigation. Assuming you don't have to queue then I would expect you to take 1.5 hours again.
If you are slower then the problem is your climbing speed otherwise it would be your ability to read a route.
Try it and see.
If you were to move together on the Idwall Slabs (Hope or Charity) which is slightly harder but with straightforward navigation. Assuming you don't have to queue then I would expect you to take 1.5 hours again.
If you are slower then the problem is your climbing speed otherwise it would be your ability to read a route.
Try it and see.
In reply to John I: yeah i know.. this is my problem.. a lot of the time its having too many people on one rope, but a lot of the time its placing too much protection!
Th tryfan thing turned into.. pitching it on the go sort of thing.. i basically soloed most of it and brought my second up.. can't remember whih route it was .. finished to left of adam/eve though!
Th tryfan thing turned into.. pitching it on the go sort of thing.. i basically soloed most of it and brought my second up.. can't remember whih route it was .. finished to left of adam/eve though!
In reply to Mattyk:
That sounds like First/Second Pinnacle Rib.
I have go to go now, but I will resume tomorrow.
That sounds like First/Second Pinnacle Rib.
I have go to go now, but I will resume tomorrow.
In reply to Mattyk:
Start at the top and go down without touching much. Alternatively you could climb attached to a bomb set on a timed fuse, the code for diffusing is at the top of the route.
Hold on - this could make climbing the spectator sport it's always wanted to be?
Start at the top and go down without touching much. Alternatively you could climb attached to a bomb set on a timed fuse, the code for diffusing is at the top of the route.
Hold on - this could make climbing the spectator sport it's always wanted to be?
In reply to Mattyk:
Climbing fast is a skill but not one that is emphasised or practised much in the UK, hence the idiotic (sarcastic?) comments about taking a head-torch or just not worrying about it. We have an amateur climbing culture that values 'the epic', good pub story material, over the fast, efficient ascent.
You've not been climbing for long, and have realised you need to change: a good start! Like any other problem you need to analyse it and then work on your weak points. Ask your climbing partners to help you with the analysis. Do you put in too much gear? Do you take a long time to choose the right item to place? Do you take forever to set up a belay? Do you get lost? Do you actually climb slowly? Do you just spend a lot of time just faffing?
Your solid lead grade looks to be about HVS, so I wouldn’t say VS represents a 'comfortable' grade yet. I think you need to practice moving fast on easy ground for you ie Diff, VDiff, Severe. Get quick before trying to get good and quick. High volume soloing can be helpful for confidence and fitness, but there are also the rope management issues that JohnI mentions, so you need to do lots of easy multi-pitch routes too. Set yourself targets: 20 VDiff/Severes in 2 hours and such like. Record your time to do a particular multi-pitch route now and then check your progress in a few months after you have practised some of the following games:
Try limiting yourself to (eg) 3 gear placements per pitch if you think you are placing too much protection. Practice gear selection if this is an issue: only two choices allowed per placement. Have your belay systems hard-wired. If faffing (officially defined as more than two down climbs per pitch ;-0 ) is slowing you down, then you could practice climbing with no descending allowed! Concentrates the mind I can tell you. Play these games on routes that you might solo anyway initially. For each weakness you have identified, think up a game to work on. Do you have a regular partner for the Alps? S/he needs to be in on this as well. Switching from pitching to moving together to soloing and back needs team competence
This perhaps all sounds a little serious, but if it means avoiding that afternoon thunderstorm next summer it will have been worth it. Besides, these games can be fun to play when the weather is cold and grey. Moving fast keeps you warm.
You might be interested to know that I had more than my fair share of benightments and unscheduled bivis (in the Verdon…) early in my career, but graduated to fast ascents of Yosemite walls. You can change your ways!
Climbing fast is a skill but not one that is emphasised or practised much in the UK, hence the idiotic (sarcastic?) comments about taking a head-torch or just not worrying about it. We have an amateur climbing culture that values 'the epic', good pub story material, over the fast, efficient ascent.
You've not been climbing for long, and have realised you need to change: a good start! Like any other problem you need to analyse it and then work on your weak points. Ask your climbing partners to help you with the analysis. Do you put in too much gear? Do you take a long time to choose the right item to place? Do you take forever to set up a belay? Do you get lost? Do you actually climb slowly? Do you just spend a lot of time just faffing?
Your solid lead grade looks to be about HVS, so I wouldn’t say VS represents a 'comfortable' grade yet. I think you need to practice moving fast on easy ground for you ie Diff, VDiff, Severe. Get quick before trying to get good and quick. High volume soloing can be helpful for confidence and fitness, but there are also the rope management issues that JohnI mentions, so you need to do lots of easy multi-pitch routes too. Set yourself targets: 20 VDiff/Severes in 2 hours and such like. Record your time to do a particular multi-pitch route now and then check your progress in a few months after you have practised some of the following games:
Try limiting yourself to (eg) 3 gear placements per pitch if you think you are placing too much protection. Practice gear selection if this is an issue: only two choices allowed per placement. Have your belay systems hard-wired. If faffing (officially defined as more than two down climbs per pitch ;-0 ) is slowing you down, then you could practice climbing with no descending allowed! Concentrates the mind I can tell you. Play these games on routes that you might solo anyway initially. For each weakness you have identified, think up a game to work on. Do you have a regular partner for the Alps? S/he needs to be in on this as well. Switching from pitching to moving together to soloing and back needs team competence
This perhaps all sounds a little serious, but if it means avoiding that afternoon thunderstorm next summer it will have been worth it. Besides, these games can be fun to play when the weather is cold and grey. Moving fast keeps you warm.
You might be interested to know that I had more than my fair share of benightments and unscheduled bivis (in the Verdon…) early in my career, but graduated to fast ascents of Yosemite walls. You can change your ways!
In reply to Mattyk: NO! NO! NO! aLL WRONG. Rush out and buy a self-help book! ;-p
In reply to MaxB: Why not consult the expert directly.
Fast climbing? MGA is your man. <duck>
Fast climbing? MGA is your man. <duck>
In reply to duncan:
MattyK: Go ahead and try Duncan's advice it's the best you have received.
Looking at your Profile, you are clearly a better technical climber than me, but my main strength is the ability to climb easy ground fast as my cardiovascular fitness allows.
Here are some aspects to consider.
SPEED BENCHMARKS
When walking or skitouring, you will probably average about 400-600m/hr and are possibly capable of bursts of up to 900m/hr. (I am old fart, but these are taken from altimeter measurements). So it is not unreasonable that you should be able to scramble at these speeds because you are recruiting both arms and legs.
Allowing for route-finding and climbing variety, then 300m/hr is not an unreasonable target when soloing on easy ground.
Is this achievable? I have soloed Faith/Hope/Charity in 30-40 minutes and have been up Hope in 20mins (ascent speeds of 340-520m/hr).
In Al Churcher's Classic Climbs in the Dolomites, I have selected a 180m route (Torre Piccola di Falzarego AD 3/4). He gives a time of 1 hour for this 10 pitch S/HS. Personally I feel that all his timings are too ambitious, but by running pitches together, this should be reasonable for 1.25-1.5 hours.
CLIMBING STYLES
Moving Together ... should not take much longer than the speed of the slowest climber. Possibly 10% extra to allow for gear placement, and meeting to exchange leads or gear. Assuming that the leader is happy to solo, then pitching the odd tricky section just needs a sling, a nut and a turn of the rope around a spike or a body belay to protect the second.
Single Leader. If you are doing all the leading, then consider using a Direct Belay.... it is faster and easier on the arms. If you have two seconds then bring them up simultaneously over easier ground on independent Italian Hitches or use a Reverso.
Remember that pitching is the sum of the climbing speeds plus a generous allowance for belay management.
Watch a guide at work with a client, as they overrtake you on an Alpine route.
MattyK: Go ahead and try Duncan's advice it's the best you have received.
Looking at your Profile, you are clearly a better technical climber than me, but my main strength is the ability to climb easy ground fast as my cardiovascular fitness allows.
Here are some aspects to consider.
SPEED BENCHMARKS
When walking or skitouring, you will probably average about 400-600m/hr and are possibly capable of bursts of up to 900m/hr. (I am old fart, but these are taken from altimeter measurements). So it is not unreasonable that you should be able to scramble at these speeds because you are recruiting both arms and legs.
Allowing for route-finding and climbing variety, then 300m/hr is not an unreasonable target when soloing on easy ground.
Is this achievable? I have soloed Faith/Hope/Charity in 30-40 minutes and have been up Hope in 20mins (ascent speeds of 340-520m/hr).
In Al Churcher's Classic Climbs in the Dolomites, I have selected a 180m route (Torre Piccola di Falzarego AD 3/4). He gives a time of 1 hour for this 10 pitch S/HS. Personally I feel that all his timings are too ambitious, but by running pitches together, this should be reasonable for 1.25-1.5 hours.
CLIMBING STYLES
Moving Together ... should not take much longer than the speed of the slowest climber. Possibly 10% extra to allow for gear placement, and meeting to exchange leads or gear. Assuming that the leader is happy to solo, then pitching the odd tricky section just needs a sling, a nut and a turn of the rope around a spike or a body belay to protect the second.
Single Leader. If you are doing all the leading, then consider using a Direct Belay.... it is faster and easier on the arms. If you have two seconds then bring them up simultaneously over easier ground on independent Italian Hitches or use a Reverso.
Remember that pitching is the sum of the climbing speeds plus a generous allowance for belay management.
Watch a guide at work with a client, as they overrtake you on an Alpine route.
In reply to GregK:
..... So what do the elite climbers achieve?
Assuming those first 7 pitches averaged 40m each then this about 1000m/hr .... almost running!
The grades vary from 5.9(F5)-5.12a(F7a+) but there is a large section of 4th grade scrambling in the middle.
..... So what do the elite climbers achieve?
> Went to the Kendal Film festival and listened to Timmy O'Neal who simul-climbed the first 7 pitches of The Nose in 17 minutes.
Assuming those first 7 pitches averaged 40m each then this about 1000m/hr .... almost running!
The grades vary from 5.9(F5)-5.12a(F7a+) but there is a large section of 4th grade scrambling in the middle.
In reply to Mattyk: Remind me never to climb with you!!!
In reply to Al Evans: You don't seem to be helping, I think that he wants advice not cheap shots.
Mattyk: Honestly, slow climbing is surprisingly common but it does tend to lend to epics on longer routes.
On the lighter side, you are not as bad a this pair....
"From Ogwen Valley MRT:
http://www.ogwen-rescue.org.uk/ovmro/reports/2000/i_narrative.html
9th October 2000: 21.23 - 00.55 hrs. Idwal Slabs. Female, 30 yrs. Exhaustion, dehydration and swollen feet.
The woman set off up the Slabs on the Sunday morning with her partner. The conditions were wet and they were very slow climbing. They did not reach the top of the route until dusk and then could not find the walk off. They stayed on the ledge for the night without waterproofs, food or water; these had been left in the rucsac at the bottom of the climb. On Monday morning, they still could not find the walk off and decided to climb down by Ordinary route. By dusk, they were still 200 feet from the bottom and the female could go no further due to hunger and exhaustion. Her partner climbed down and raised the alarm. She was retrieved and walked off. They had not called to any party in the Cwm during the day. They had taken 39 hours to do Hope - possibly a record.
15 Team members."
Mattyk: Honestly, slow climbing is surprisingly common but it does tend to lend to epics on longer routes.
On the lighter side, you are not as bad a this pair....
"From Ogwen Valley MRT:
http://www.ogwen-rescue.org.uk/ovmro/reports/2000/i_narrative.html
9th October 2000: 21.23 - 00.55 hrs. Idwal Slabs. Female, 30 yrs. Exhaustion, dehydration and swollen feet.
The woman set off up the Slabs on the Sunday morning with her partner. The conditions were wet and they were very slow climbing. They did not reach the top of the route until dusk and then could not find the walk off. They stayed on the ledge for the night without waterproofs, food or water; these had been left in the rucsac at the bottom of the climb. On Monday morning, they still could not find the walk off and decided to climb down by Ordinary route. By dusk, they were still 200 feet from the bottom and the female could go no further due to hunger and exhaustion. Her partner climbed down and raised the alarm. She was retrieved and walked off. They had not called to any party in the Cwm during the day. They had taken 39 hours to do Hope - possibly a record.
15 Team members."
1
In reply to Al Evans: Why? Mr perfect
Remind me not to climb with you, one important thing in choosing my climbing partners is making sure they aren't arrogant Tw@'s although maybe thats why you're so great?
..
Too the rest of you, Duncan, john etc cheers.. good ideas!
Will write more of a reply tomo!
Remind me not to climb with you, one important thing in choosing my climbing partners is making sure they aren't arrogant Tw@'s although maybe thats why you're so great?
..
Too the rest of you, Duncan, john etc cheers.. good ideas!
Will write more of a reply tomo!
In reply to Mattyk:
Oooh. Scary post matt! Think he was just bein sarky?? Chill Winston!! Theres a lot of tw@ts on here, we know. Just ignore them, they aint worth flexing your finger muscles for!
Anyhow, yes I remember that route!! 9 bits of gear wasnt it?? And a hell of a lot of friction! And the hard bit was at the bottom! He he. Then again you wouldnt be my Matty without taking ages and picking the grottiest climb on the crag! Remember that Goblin thingy at Almscliffe. Man, Im still scraping the pigeon poo from under my nails!
Oooh. Scary post matt! Think he was just bein sarky?? Chill Winston!! Theres a lot of tw@ts on here, we know. Just ignore them, they aint worth flexing your finger muscles for!
Anyhow, yes I remember that route!! 9 bits of gear wasnt it?? And a hell of a lot of friction! And the hard bit was at the bottom! He he. Then again you wouldnt be my Matty without taking ages and picking the grottiest climb on the crag! Remember that Goblin thingy at Almscliffe. Man, Im still scraping the pigeon poo from under my nails!
In reply to Mattyk: Get a more streamlined helmet!
In reply to Mattyk: Sorry to attempt humour on Rocktalk, whatever am I thinking of?
Sorry if its so sensitive a point for you that you have to see it as a criticism, offence wasnt meant.
Al
Sorry if its so sensitive a point for you that you have to see it as a criticism, offence wasnt meant.
Al
In reply to John I:
Forth grade scrambling on the Nose???
Forth grade scrambling on the Nose???
In reply to GregK:
Apparently so. According to the Yosemite guide, pitch 4 starts at Sickle Edge. It is a loose convex ramp for about 80m (I don't know how accurate the topo is) steepening into a 5.9 pitch.
Apparently so. According to the Yosemite guide, pitch 4 starts at Sickle Edge. It is a loose convex ramp for about 80m (I don't know how accurate the topo is) steepening into a 5.9 pitch.
In reply to Al Evans: yeah haven't you seen the recent threads - rocktalk is only for SERIOUS hard man climbing banter! we aren't allowed humour..
Matty
Matty
In reply to Mattyk: My mistake
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