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In between nights out on the town then black pudding for breakfast, and his headpoint burns on Rhapsody, Sonnie Trotter has established a new finish to Requiem at Dumbarton Rock.
PLUS Sonnie Trotter: Another Week and Steve McClure on Rhapsody
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=06&year=2008#n44699
PLUS Sonnie Trotter: Another Week and Steve McClure on Rhapsody
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=06&year=2008#n44699
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
The head is a bit sluggish this morning but has sonnie sent the route (variation allowed)?
The head is a bit sluggish this morning but has sonnie sent the route (variation allowed)?
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Good effort by both lads. Hope you both get it done.
Iain
Iain
In reply to jaysus:
No, Sonnie has done a different ending, and called it Direquiem. As the bit this does different is the crux, he's not done Rhapsody.
No, Sonnie has done a different ending, and called it Direquiem. As the bit this does different is the crux, he's not done Rhapsody.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
>"where Direquiem goes direct (in a straight line) from the top of the Requiem crack to the top of the cliff."
Well I'd not go as far as says "in a straight line" to the top. I've watched him climb the line and it involves veering to the right initailly starting up the Requiem finish for a couple of 2m before a long reach back left to get back into the crack... Splitting hairs I know but I feel your report is slightly misleading.
>"where Direquiem goes direct (in a straight line) from the top of the Requiem crack to the top of the cliff."
Well I'd not go as far as says "in a straight line" to the top. I've watched him climb the line and it involves veering to the right initailly starting up the Requiem finish for a couple of 2m before a long reach back left to get back into the crack... Splitting hairs I know but I feel your report is slightly misleading.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Thanks for letting us all know your personal opinions on the British grading system in respect to headpoints and those who climb them there, Mick.
Surely this is what the forum is for? Shouldn't news articles be unbiased? It read like a petulant child.
Thanks for letting us all know your personal opinions on the British grading system in respect to headpoints and those who climb them there, Mick.
Surely this is what the forum is for? Shouldn't news articles be unbiased? It read like a petulant child.
In reply to Will Hunt:
my thgoubhts Exactly ! news reports should be impartial
my thgoubhts Exactly ! news reports should be impartial
In reply to eraven99:
Really? Could you imagine how boring newspaper reading would be if they didn't contain a certain amount of editorial comment? This isn't public service broadcasting!
Back on topic: great name for this route
> news reports should be impartial
Really? Could you imagine how boring newspaper reading would be if they didn't contain a certain amount of editorial comment? This isn't public service broadcasting!
Back on topic: great name for this route
In reply to Tyler:
is Direquiem now the hardest trad line in the UK?
> Back on topic: great name for this route
is Direquiem now the hardest trad line in the UK?
In reply to Will Hunt:
Are we reading the same article here Will? As far as I know the point put across about the grading for an onsight as opposed the theoretical grading is commonly held across the climbing community as is the desire to see subsequent attempts try and raise the bar style-wise to what has gone before be that ground up/onsight/bouldered out/whatever.
Rest assured that if the paragraph regarding grades had not been made then this thread would have descended into exactly the point that you seem so intent on attacking. You have been around long enough now to know that for a fact...
bluebrad
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> Thanks for letting us all know your personal opinions on the British grading system in respect to headpoints and those who climb them there, Mick.
>
> Surely this is what the forum is for? Shouldn't news articles be unbiased? It read like a petulant child.
>
> Thanks for letting us all know your personal opinions on the British grading system in respect to headpoints and those who climb them there, Mick.
>
> Surely this is what the forum is for? Shouldn't news articles be unbiased? It read like a petulant child.
Are we reading the same article here Will? As far as I know the point put across about the grading for an onsight as opposed the theoretical grading is commonly held across the climbing community as is the desire to see subsequent attempts try and raise the bar style-wise to what has gone before be that ground up/onsight/bouldered out/whatever.
Rest assured that if the paragraph regarding grades had not been made then this thread would have descended into exactly the point that you seem so intent on attacking. You have been around long enough now to know that for a fact...
bluebrad
Post again abarro81, without the naughty word.
Ta
Mick
Ta
Mick
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I'm with Will:
"This is a lot more honest than giving pre-practiced routes an inflated, hypothetical, headline-grabbing E grade...
This will hopefully stop the practice of over-grading to embellish a climbers reputation which has been common the last 20 years or so."
Oh FFS Mick, get over yourself.
You were doing so well at redeeming yourself after the ukb-yorkshire guide mess.. until this. If you're going to insinuate - twice in few sentances - that those establishing hard climbs in a headpoint style are routinely and deliberately overgrading in order for personal gain (be in their ego or their sponsorship deal) then have the decency to do it on a forum rather than in a 'news' report, where all will know it's your opinion ONLY. This sort of stuff is what makes a mockery of the generally good site content.
I'm with Will:
"This is a lot more honest than giving pre-practiced routes an inflated, hypothetical, headline-grabbing E grade...
This will hopefully stop the practice of over-grading to embellish a climbers reputation which has been common the last 20 years or so."
Oh FFS Mick, get over yourself.
You were doing so well at redeeming yourself after the ukb-yorkshire guide mess.. until this. If you're going to insinuate - twice in few sentances - that those establishing hard climbs in a headpoint style are routinely and deliberately overgrading in order for personal gain (be in their ego or their sponsorship deal) then have the decency to do it on a forum rather than in a 'news' report, where all will know it's your opinion ONLY. This sort of stuff is what makes a mockery of the generally good site content.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
P.S. Sorry for swearing in the removed post.
P.S. Sorry for swearing in the removed post.
In reply to abarro81:
Thanks for apologising. All the best. Mick
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> P.S. Sorry for swearing in the removed post.
> P.S. Sorry for swearing in the removed post.
Thanks for apologising. All the best. Mick
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
"This will hopefully stop the practice of over-grading to embellish a climbers reputation which has been common the last 20 years or so."
I am too tired for annoyance and invective but can you consider taking that sentence out.
"This will hopefully stop the practice of over-grading to embellish a climbers reputation which has been common the last 20 years or so."
I am too tired for annoyance and invective but can you consider taking that sentence out.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Post again Mick, without the naughty word.
Ta
Steve
> Post again abarro81, without the naughty word.
>
> Ta
>
> Mick
>
> Ta
>
> Mick
Post again Mick, without the naughty word.
Ta
Steve
> by Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com
>...> Rhapsody is a good route, actually no, it's a terrific route, it climbs
> so f*cking well, it's actually fun to fall off of. "
> so f*cking well, it's actually fun to fall off of. "
In reply to Will Hunt:
Ineed; it's not exactly rocket science to comprehend that the 'inflated' e grade is for the onsight.
Ineed; it's not exactly rocket science to comprehend that the 'inflated' e grade is for the onsight.
In reply to steve456: Should have been a in there somewhere. Anyway, it's still a serious point, I'm pretty sure I've spotted language like that in news posts before, and since that is the main-page of a 'family friendly' site you might want to tighten up a bit.
In reply to Will Hunt:
Im not really sure what the point of the article was. If you want to read Trotter's blog then do it, if you want to read about Ryan's views on grades then ask him. It was half irrelevant comment, half fluffed up plagiarism. The news is that Trotter made a first ascent.
Im not really sure what the point of the article was. If you want to read Trotter's blog then do it, if you want to read about Ryan's views on grades then ask him. It was half irrelevant comment, half fluffed up plagiarism. The news is that Trotter made a first ascent.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Much kudos to Sonnie for his continued efforts on Rhapsody, not exactly primetime conditions for succes, but i hope he succeeds, carpe diem!.
Much kudos to Sonnie for his continued efforts on Rhapsody, not exactly primetime conditions for succes, but i hope he succeeds, carpe diem!.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I may as well dive in there.
I dont believe the current method of grading headpoints to be flawed. The entire purpose of a grade is to give an indication of difficulty and allow it to be compared to other climbs of a similar or different grade. Its not necessarily integral to the point of grades that E9 hasnt been onsighted. An E10 easier than E11 but harder than E9 which is harder than E8. The grades exist for no purpose other than to act as an aid in comparison.
I also find your comments upon people overgrading to satisfy their own egos to be somewhat embarrassing. Do I detect jealousy? You seem to have forgotten that different climbers have different specialities and climb best in a certain style. Perhaps these climbers who supposedly purposely overgrade do so because they found the climbing to be very hard as they specialised elsewhere. I can climb E1 with both hands tied behind my back on balance intensive, fingery slate yet really struggle with the grade on very well protected overhanging gritstone lines such as Acetebulum and Tippling Crack. I fell off both of them but dont complain that they are overgraded I merely shrug my shoulders and conclude that I must get more accustomed to overhanging, painful jamming cracks and heinously rounded top outs rather than accuse Manson, Hankinson, Kitson, Austin and Verity of having inflated egos.
I may as well dive in there.
I dont believe the current method of grading headpoints to be flawed. The entire purpose of a grade is to give an indication of difficulty and allow it to be compared to other climbs of a similar or different grade. Its not necessarily integral to the point of grades that E9 hasnt been onsighted. An E10 easier than E11 but harder than E9 which is harder than E8. The grades exist for no purpose other than to act as an aid in comparison.
I also find your comments upon people overgrading to satisfy their own egos to be somewhat embarrassing. Do I detect jealousy? You seem to have forgotten that different climbers have different specialities and climb best in a certain style. Perhaps these climbers who supposedly purposely overgrade do so because they found the climbing to be very hard as they specialised elsewhere. I can climb E1 with both hands tied behind my back on balance intensive, fingery slate yet really struggle with the grade on very well protected overhanging gritstone lines such as Acetebulum and Tippling Crack. I fell off both of them but dont complain that they are overgraded I merely shrug my shoulders and conclude that I must get more accustomed to overhanging, painful jamming cracks and heinously rounded top outs rather than accuse Manson, Hankinson, Kitson, Austin and Verity of having inflated egos.
In reply to gabriel_m:
Hi Gabriel,
I have to make this comment on a regular basis, but do not mind. I'll take time off doing some photo-topo work for crags in the Duddon Valley for next weeks Lakes Climbing Festival.
First of all, the news page actually gets more individuals visiting it than the forum pages. But there again some just visit the forums (there is this perception that UKC is just a forum - usually by the hard core 'forum heads'). So we put ground breaking news on both the news page AND the forums, therefore the maximum number of people can read what is going on.
The news page gets on average now between 5,000 to 6,000 views a day, less at weekends when most are out climbing. This has risen from 1,000 to 2,000, 2 years ago.
UKC is also what is called a web aggregate. People have busy lives and not all have time to peruse various climbing websites for news, so we do it for them.
In addition, we are rather different than a static news page in a print magazine. Here we can all comment on the news, even me! This keeps us all honest. This goes for articles, gear reviews, photos; you can praise, ask questions, discuss, call bullshit, whatever you want within the guidelines - the guidelines are there to promote discussion not stifle it. All the top climbers read UKC and quite a few comment on the forums.
News gathering. Again this has significantly changed, globally, there have been massive job cuts and a decline in advertising revenue - advertising revenue funds the media, the trick is to attempt to keep a wall of seperation where you can between editorial and advertising whilst respecting and promoting both, we do this better than most. Most climbing media now operate with a skeleton crew - yes there have been job cuts both here in the UK and the USA - a direct result of the diversification of the marketing budgets of outdoor companies. UKC is not some mega corporate media - Jack works from home in Llanberis, I work from home in Ambleside, Alan and Nick work from home Sheffield, all of us at UKC are committed to attempting to provide you, for free, the best climbing media in the UK.
As regards news gathering we rely on many sources, we get sent news, we search out news from other websites and credit appropriately (yip sometimes we slip up and we get told off), we call people up, we talk to fellow climbers in person. Our goal is to produce a news page that reflects what is going on in the climbing world which is quite diverse now and climbers have very many interests within climbing.
For this particular news item I don't mind admitting at all that I was alerted by email by someone who posts a lot on the forums - I was climbing all day yesterday and was knackered last night.. In addition I talked to someone who accompanied Steve McClure to Dumbarton and talked to Dave Brown at Hot Aches this morning who you probably know has Sonnie staying at his abode. Also both Sonnie Trotter and Dave MacLeod have great blogs which we frequently quote from and credit, they do as great job and I find them both very inspiring - the same with Steve McClure.
Views on grades. I'm afraid, yes they are mine, but as I said they are also the view of several top climbers and Jack GEldard, UKC's editor, is working on a more thorough article about this.
But yes you are correct, "The news is that Trotter made a first ascent." of a direct finish to Requiem and is still attempting Rhapsody.
Good luck to him this week.
All the best,
Mick
> (In reply to Will Hunt)
> Im not really sure what the point of the article was. If you want to read Trotter's blog then do it, if you want to read about Ryan's views on grades then ask him. It was half irrelevant comment, half fluffed up plagiarism. The news is that Trotter made a first ascent.
> Im not really sure what the point of the article was. If you want to read Trotter's blog then do it, if you want to read about Ryan's views on grades then ask him. It was half irrelevant comment, half fluffed up plagiarism. The news is that Trotter made a first ascent.
Hi Gabriel,
I have to make this comment on a regular basis, but do not mind. I'll take time off doing some photo-topo work for crags in the Duddon Valley for next weeks Lakes Climbing Festival.
First of all, the news page actually gets more individuals visiting it than the forum pages. But there again some just visit the forums (there is this perception that UKC is just a forum - usually by the hard core 'forum heads'). So we put ground breaking news on both the news page AND the forums, therefore the maximum number of people can read what is going on.
The news page gets on average now between 5,000 to 6,000 views a day, less at weekends when most are out climbing. This has risen from 1,000 to 2,000, 2 years ago.
UKC is also what is called a web aggregate. People have busy lives and not all have time to peruse various climbing websites for news, so we do it for them.
In addition, we are rather different than a static news page in a print magazine. Here we can all comment on the news, even me! This keeps us all honest. This goes for articles, gear reviews, photos; you can praise, ask questions, discuss, call bullshit, whatever you want within the guidelines - the guidelines are there to promote discussion not stifle it. All the top climbers read UKC and quite a few comment on the forums.
News gathering. Again this has significantly changed, globally, there have been massive job cuts and a decline in advertising revenue - advertising revenue funds the media, the trick is to attempt to keep a wall of seperation where you can between editorial and advertising whilst respecting and promoting both, we do this better than most. Most climbing media now operate with a skeleton crew - yes there have been job cuts both here in the UK and the USA - a direct result of the diversification of the marketing budgets of outdoor companies. UKC is not some mega corporate media - Jack works from home in Llanberis, I work from home in Ambleside, Alan and Nick work from home Sheffield, all of us at UKC are committed to attempting to provide you, for free, the best climbing media in the UK.
As regards news gathering we rely on many sources, we get sent news, we search out news from other websites and credit appropriately (yip sometimes we slip up and we get told off), we call people up, we talk to fellow climbers in person. Our goal is to produce a news page that reflects what is going on in the climbing world which is quite diverse now and climbers have very many interests within climbing.
For this particular news item I don't mind admitting at all that I was alerted by email by someone who posts a lot on the forums - I was climbing all day yesterday and was knackered last night.. In addition I talked to someone who accompanied Steve McClure to Dumbarton and talked to Dave Brown at Hot Aches this morning who you probably know has Sonnie staying at his abode. Also both Sonnie Trotter and Dave MacLeod have great blogs which we frequently quote from and credit, they do as great job and I find them both very inspiring - the same with Steve McClure.
Views on grades. I'm afraid, yes they are mine, but as I said they are also the view of several top climbers and Jack GEldard, UKC's editor, is working on a more thorough article about this.
But yes you are correct, "The news is that Trotter made a first ascent." of a direct finish to Requiem and is still attempting Rhapsody.
Good luck to him this week.
All the best,
Mick
In reply to Will Hunt:
Good man and good night.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> I may as well dive in there.
>
> I may as well dive in there.
Good man and good night.
In reply to Tyler:
Newspapers obviously contain editorials. In a separate place from news reports.
It wouldn't be so bad if Mick's views weren't so fatuous. Nobody ever overgraded a sport route for publicity? Sheesh. Not what I've heard.
jcm
> (In reply to eraven99)
>
> [...]
>
> Really? Could you imagine how boring newspaper reading would be if they didn't contain a certain amount of editorial comment?
>
> [...]
>
> Really? Could you imagine how boring newspaper reading would be if they didn't contain a certain amount of editorial comment?
Newspapers obviously contain editorials. In a separate place from news reports.
It wouldn't be so bad if Mick's views weren't so fatuous. Nobody ever overgraded a sport route for publicity? Sheesh. Not what I've heard.
jcm
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Hot Aches blog now says he has repeated Rhapsody - good work I'd say for both routes (wish I could climb that well). Some people like climbing rock and grading is just a measure of how they are doing at it at a particular time, so that's fine by me - take 'em or leave 'em. I agree with Will, some styles of climbing or types of rock suit better, others don't so practice them. Grades help you tell if the practice is working.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Naive John. There were at least 8 5.14'S claimed in the USA that were subsequently downgraded before 5.14 actually stuck (see a Wills Young article in Climbing). Similarly in mainland Europe.
How many E10's were claimed in the UK that have been down graded, at least 2 if not more.... and by at least two grades.
As MacLeod agreed with me these cutting edge grades are a mix of hype, comparison and ignorance.
Always wise to doubt what you get fed especially as grades are self verified and need several ascents to reach a consensus.
We do need are gods though. Well some do.
Hopefully the tide is turning, there are several talented individuals out there who are keeping it real; and the climbing media these days and all who care to comment are keeping it real and questioning what we got spoon fed in the past.
Question; if Rhapsody gets down graded to E10 (which I doubt it will do) how much is my E11 T-shirt worth? I was wearing it bouldering at Craig Y longridge tonight - helped me up a V3!
Mick
> (In reply to Tyler)
> [...]
>
> It wouldn't be so bad if Mick's views weren't so fatuous. Nobody ever overgraded a sport route for publicity? Sheesh.
> [...]
>
> It wouldn't be so bad if Mick's views weren't so fatuous. Nobody ever overgraded a sport route for publicity? Sheesh.
Naive John. There were at least 8 5.14'S claimed in the USA that were subsequently downgraded before 5.14 actually stuck (see a Wills Young article in Climbing). Similarly in mainland Europe.
How many E10's were claimed in the UK that have been down graded, at least 2 if not more.... and by at least two grades.
As MacLeod agreed with me these cutting edge grades are a mix of hype, comparison and ignorance.
Always wise to doubt what you get fed especially as grades are self verified and need several ascents to reach a consensus.
We do need are gods though. Well some do.
Hopefully the tide is turning, there are several talented individuals out there who are keeping it real; and the climbing media these days and all who care to comment are keeping it real and questioning what we got spoon fed in the past.
Question; if Rhapsody gets down graded to E10 (which I doubt it will do) how much is my E11 T-shirt worth? I was wearing it bouldering at Craig Y longridge tonight - helped me up a V3!
Mick
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
'Faux-modest undergraders' perhaps? (Sorry, the term was used on a ukb thread a while back and I thought it was too good not to nick.)
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
> [...]
>
> there are several talented individuals out there who are keeping it real
> [...]
>
> there are several talented individuals out there who are keeping it real
'Faux-modest undergraders' perhaps? (Sorry, the term was used on a ukb thread a while back and I thought it was too good not to nick.)
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