UKC

Dave McLeod spent a long time (two years if my memory serves me well) getting Rhapsody. Sonnie Trotter put in a lot of effort over two trips to get it, but it was a much quicker ascent. Steve McClure’s second repeat was over faster than the eye can see. Now the climb can’t have changed that much over time. So what gives?

Well there were the photos (and commentary) about Dave sharing beta with Sonnie and discussing the route. There was Sonnie leaving Steve a crucial piece of gear (subsequently replaced with an identical one) and presumably some accompanying beta. Maybe Sonnie and Steve spent days in video analysis of E11 (I hope they managed to skip the rapper!!!).

But then Dave has also made quick repeat ascents of other people’s FAs – doing them in a day, or after a few days of effort. He has also downgraded these in the process so, allowing for egos, he found then easier than the person who graded them.

Ignoring beta about moves and gear placements, is there something else going on here? Is it just that a repeat of a hard line is always easier psychologically, precisely because it has already been climbed? If you are the potential first ascencionist and it is really, really difficult, then you must have doubts over whether you (or anyone else) can complete the climb. These must be somewhat less for repeat ascensionists; they know that it is possible (in the general sense). Is the third ascent easier again (no disrespect meant to Ste Mac BTW)? Is this a general phenomenon and what has led to Dave downgrading lines by Birkett, Dunne, etc.?

Would be interested in the thoughts of people who climb a bit harder than me (i.e. 99.9% of people).

In reply to TRNovice:

Some very interesting thoughts. I climb no were near that level but I see it when out climbing with my mates of a similar standard. We will all be struggling on a boulder problem say but the minute one of us gets the hard move the others will follow suit pretty quick even if we have no "beta" on it.

In short I think your right. Once its done once its psychologically easier but hell i am an engineering so wouldnt really no anything about that.

S

In reply to TRNovice: Sonny and Dave climb 8c+/9a, Steve climbs 9a+/9b at least...

In reply to telemarker:

I think the dominating factor is that Steve is much, much stronger than Dave Mac.

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Yeh, I wouldnt argue with that.

In reply to midgets of the world unite: Aye Steve certainly appears to be a few levels above the other 2.

Cheers
tim

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Deinately.

I do think, however, that subsequent accents do make things easier.

In reply to TRNovice: A sport climber will get a route 2-3 grades below their maximum pretty quickly, whereas if your at the limit it will take much longer. As was the case here.

Andy F

In reply to TRNovice: I thik its also important to remeber that dave wasnt any where near his current fitness when he started working it. Im guessing that a lot of the time he spent working on the route was also spent building up the required fitnes, which sonnie and steve both had already.

In reply to TimS:

Ste Mac doesn't seem to make much of a fuss about his trad side-line. I have know idea what his previous hardest trad climb was - I have seen photos of him on an E8, so that is all I have to go by.

I suppose your comment also relates to whether Rhapsody can be considered a clip-up .

McClure does seem to be in a class of his own at the moment. In self-deprecation, if nothing else. Not bad for a weak Limestone climber I guess .

In reply to people who commented on Ste Mac's relative strength:

Point taken, so let's focus on Sonnie and Dave and Sonnie taking a lot less time to get Rhapsody than Dave and also on Dave on the Birkett, Dunne, Berry lines that he repeated quite quickly. Does my original hypothesis hold here?

In reply to TRNovice:

looking at all the facts, I think that yes, there is something to be said for repeating a route rather than doing the 1st ascent. In the case of Rhapsody though, this was compounded significantly by the fact that DM was getting up to strength and fitness whilst working the route over the couple of years, whereas ST was already there when he first approached it.

(okay, I'm not either of these people so this is obviously just observer speculation)

In reply to ClimberEd:

Agreed again - but how about the E9/10s that Dave has repeated quickly and down-graded. Were the FAs weak and got strong on them as you suggest for Dave, or is it that Dave was (is) a lot stronger now than the First Ascensionist was then (as per, arguably, Ste Mac vs Dave now)?

In reply to ClimberEd:

I would agree with that because Dave Mac says something to that effect on E11.

In reply to ClimberEd:

As an aside, I wonder if this process made it feel harder for him. I know that he graded it in comparisson to various E9/10s that he had climbed (and were presumably easier), but perhaps the above could have been a subconcious factor, no matter how dispassionate he tried to be.

In reply to remtherockclimber: Sonnie Trotter hadn't been climbing for about 4-5 months before coming over the UK - you should read his blog. Maybe his finger strength was still there, but its not likely that his stamina was, so its likely that is what was letting him down?

McClure is as said in a league of his own at the moment in the UK especially. Be interesting to see how quickly Sharma, Graham or Ondra got the line - if they were to ever try it.

I think most of Birkett's routes have only taken a couple of days work - does he not get bored if he spends more than 3-4 days on a route? Return of the Kings was 2 days?

In reply to datoon:

That's interesting - hadn't appreciated that.

In reply to midgets of the world unite:


Yeah - but what's he ever done on hoar?

(Sorry - I've been wanting to use that for years...

In reply to datoon:


McCLure always seems to win those Petzl Roc Trip events he goes on, despite Graham and Sharma being there. I say he pretty much up there on a world level.

In reply to TRNovice:

Anyone know about Ste Mac's bouldering achievements? I'm assuming that this is not something that he focuses much on but occasionally knocks off the odd V15 flash in his spare time (whilst flying faster than a speeding bullet and generally saving the world).

In reply to telemarker: Steve Mclure regularly onsights 8b plus, to redpoint/headpoint 8c(or maybe 8cplus)would generally take little time for someone climbing at this level(bearing in mind that the route seems to be safe to fall on.)

In reply to TimS:
Steve climbs 9a+/9b at least...

At least? Blimey!

In reply to martin heywood:

Didn't Trotter say that it was a pleasure to fall off of - though maybe he didn't mean it quite that way!

In reply to TRNovice:

Dm says something in his blog about ST not falling from the highest holds and therefore having a more comfortable fall. Or words to that effect.

In reply to TRNovice:

Yes he did think the fall was safe and bear in mind with all this idle talk of Sonnie sieging the line, he only had two weeks climbing time on the actual route, with on the whole warm sweaty conditions, if you have ever climbed at Dumby you will appreciate the significance of this, the rock has the friction properties of soap.
Luckily the North Wind began to blow on the last week of his trip.

In reply to Conquistador of the usless:

I liked this section from Dave's blog: -

[Of Trotter] This is the difference between good athletes and world class athletes. Good athletes have talent, maybe training too and do impressive things. But when it comes to the big one – whatever it may be, they either quietly fold in the face of the obstacles, or keep on going right through them.

In reply to datoon:

Exactly: malaria (!) then a back problem (too much yoga?)

In reply to TRNovice:

>"though maybe he didn't mean it quite that way!"

I think Sonnie did actually enjoy the falling off in the same way those that enjoy bridge jumping and the like do. Macleod's falls were generally bigger, from higher.

Also perhaps Sonnie's rope wasn't as stretchy as Macleods? - just my theory.

I don't think he did in the end but I think after he'd ticked the climb Sonnie was going to take the fall again for more photographs.

In reply to JLS:

Those Canadians are crayzeeee!

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Agreed - I think another factor may be that with Dave Mac and Dave Birkett climbing cutting edge trad in the UK and Steve Mac climbing cutting edge sport people assume that there must be some kind of equivalence between the 2. In actual fact Steve has moved standards on sports routes (both redpointing and onsighting) to a completely different level and it now appears that he could be as much ahead of the chasing pack on top level trad if he wanted to be as he obviously is on top level sport (witness his flash of Gaz Parrys 8b+).

In reply to Ian Patterson:

I agree that what you have said seems to be a logical conclusion to draw from recent events. It is interesting what it says about what we all like to think of as separate, and to a degree unrelated, disciplines.

In reply to TRNovice: surely the fact tht steve mcclure has been climbing much longer than both sonny and dave means he will be able to figure out the moves more easily???

In reply to dunkymonkey17:

So sutty should be able to get it onsight then? [Apologies sutty - let's hope you are less sensitive than Climb].

In reply to TRNovice: I agree with you. I think for the first ascentionist the climb is always going to feel harder, it's like grading it for an onsight. The first ascent is 'going into the unknown' much like an onsight is. So when people come along afterwards and have seen the moves/seen it's possible it's not a difficult psychologically.
I think that the first ascent of a route is harder than a repeat ascent because as well as the moves you've got the 'is it possible' thing going on.
So maybe E11 is a good grade for a first ascent with the solid climbing and psychological 'is it possible' stuff, but maybe a repeat ascent is easier because it IS possible and you can play the moves in slow mo from the DVD?!
Martin.
ps. all above is pure speculation, please feel free to ignore it if you think its a load of rubbish

In reply to davies00:

I'm struggling to work out how this differentiates your comments from most of the rest of this thread (and indeed this site!), obvioulsy including my own as well .

In reply to TRNovice: That is very true, sod it lets say Rhapsody should be downgraded to E10... everyone is thinking it!

In reply to davies00:

I'm not

In reply to davies00:

I think worthwhile comments regarding the grade come from the people who have actually climbed it. Dave MacLeod has had his say, Sonnie has admitted he doesn't understand E grades, and we've yet to hear what Steve McClure thinks.

In reply to davies00:

Scottish E10 maybe?

In reply to TRNovice:

What's to think about, the answers pretty obvious. Steve is a world class sport climber. Dave and Sonnie are not. This is what happens when a top sport climber who can climb this sort of difficulty fairly quickly turns their attention to trad. It's the next generation, I'm sure kids like Ondra will be flashing routes like this in a few years (if he develops some balls post-puberty, and an interest in trad).

In reply to catt:

Post-puberty Ondra - when testosterone starts to kick in - now that is a scary thought!

In reply to davies00:

(troll?!)

I'm not.

In reply to tony:

Am I not right in thinking that after Steve Mc climbed The New Statesman at Curbar he didn't comment on the E grade as he felt he didn't have enough experience of top end trad to compare it to. i'm not sure if much will have changed after climbing Rhapsody. Maybe just confirmation/correction of the Fr grade. He's certainly qualified for that.

In reply to TRNovice:

And lactate! muhawhaw...

In reply to catt:

Which goes back to my question of how much top-end trad has Ste Mac done, or does he not publicise his warm-up solos?

In reply to TRNovice:

Anyway, steering this thread back to the OP (or rather the OP qualified a bit further down). Taking the super-human McClure to one side, what about Trotter's repeat. Was it easier than McLeod's FA and does the same go for Dave's repeats of other people's E9/10s?

In reply to catt:

Don't know, but you could well be right, and I was wondering if that might be the case.


He is, and it would be interesting to hear his views.

In reply to TRNovice:

I'm sure I can remember reading something on Dave's blog about repeats being easier than FAs. Can't quite remember the context, but I'll have a trawl and see what I can find.

In reply to TRNovice:


But then what would that potentially do to the grades of To Hell and Back ('Scottish' E10), and to Achemine, Hold Fast and The Fugue (all 'Scottish' E9)? The only one of these that's been repeated is Hold Fast, and Dave Birkett opted to use side runners for that repeat (which suggests it's not a soft touch in it's original style).

Rhapsody is F8c/8c+ to climb and so is clearly harder than any other trad route in the UK. You could probably count the number of British climbers capable of doing a sport climb of that grade on one hand, or maybe two, so it's never going to get headpointed except by the extremely talented. The fact that it's had some repeats now doesn't take away from the fact that it's desperate - just that it's attracted some extremely talented suitors.

In reply to tony:

Thanks - coz I'm busy working here - ooops :-o.

In reply to TRNovice:

Here you go, in the paragraph below the last photo:
"I forgot how much easier it is repeating stuff than putting it up!"

http://davemacleod.blogspot.com/search/label/Divided%20Years

Work? hmm, interesting concept...

In reply to tony:

Thanks for that.

As for work. I'm just finishing a nine-month project, which has involved interviewing 100 managers at my work. Just did the 100th interview today and am writing it up as we speak. The document capturing this and my findings is around 125,000 words - the largest document I have ever written (and I can go on a bit as is probably evident from my occasional contributions to UKC). I suspect that I am a little demob happy!

In reply to TRNovice:

Good effort! That sounds at least E8.

In reply to tony:

It was compiled onwrite as well - would have been easier on top-wrote first.

In reply to TRNovice:

By way of perspective, War and Peace is about 460,000 words.

Oops, I had better stop going off at a tangent lest I upset the OP.

In reply to Stuart S:

Scottish E10 was meant in the sense of Scottish VS .

In reply to TRNovice: its pretty obvious why it took Dave so long to climb Rhapsody, it was beyond his heighest previous level at the time. I might be wrong but he hadnt done 8c+ at the time (or 8c for that matter?) and Im not sure if there was even an 8c+ (or 8C?) sport route in scotland at the time. he himself wrote in the description that the route was ideal for tope end bold sport climbers.

the route is perfect for someone of mcclures level, but im sure even he would say he was glad he didnt have to take repeated falls off the top moves.

In reply to Erik B:

Sounds logical to me.