This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
I am not a troll. I am a relative beginner but I have done bits of all kinds of climbing.
Bouldering - is exciting and fun, especially with friends.I like the power and the problem solving but it never gets too boring, since there is no hanging, taking and the sequences are short. It is of course also pure and childlike.
Trad - Exciting positions, balanced sometimes on seemingly nothing. This is my favourite kind of climbing, small holds, blank rock, exciting lines and situations.
Ice/Winter - Amazing and exhilierating. Its what I personally want to focus on.
What I dont understand is where sport fits in? All the above fill a cetain niche, whereas the existence of bouldering seems to make sport seem pointless. Its less pure, more anoraky and much les beautiful. For example I fail to see the beauty of steep overhanging limestone. If I look at Birketts recent climb, conversely, and that big, bare bit of rock it looks wonderful. I admire people like Sharma but I never dream of doing it myself.
So I ask, genuinly out of interest, given the existence of bouldering, what do sport climbers get out of sport that they don't other types of climbing?
Thanks
Bouldering - is exciting and fun, especially with friends.I like the power and the problem solving but it never gets too boring, since there is no hanging, taking and the sequences are short. It is of course also pure and childlike.
Trad - Exciting positions, balanced sometimes on seemingly nothing. This is my favourite kind of climbing, small holds, blank rock, exciting lines and situations.
Ice/Winter - Amazing and exhilierating. Its what I personally want to focus on.
What I dont understand is where sport fits in? All the above fill a cetain niche, whereas the existence of bouldering seems to make sport seem pointless. Its less pure, more anoraky and much les beautiful. For example I fail to see the beauty of steep overhanging limestone. If I look at Birketts recent climb, conversely, and that big, bare bit of rock it looks wonderful. I admire people like Sharma but I never dream of doing it myself.
So I ask, genuinly out of interest, given the existence of bouldering, what do sport climbers get out of sport that they don't other types of climbing?
Thanks
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
thats like saying 'why do some poeple like strawberry icecream, and others chocolate?'
its horses for courses.
i see sport as an extrension of bouldering, concentrating on the moves but with an increase in duration and exhiliration by the height. your right limestone isnt beautiful sometimes, but go to places like siurana and then tell me its not beautiful.
as i always say to people that climb but dont 'get' sport; your not doing it right! your either treating it like trad and goig up stuff thats too easy, the idea is to push yourself to the limit (sorry!) or your getting spanked and dont like it.
ive never got the same sense of achievment from bouldering as i have sport, even tho ive done 'harder' and better on the boulders.
but its ok to not to get it. thats why we have different types,
thats like saying 'why do some poeple like strawberry icecream, and others chocolate?'
its horses for courses.
i see sport as an extrension of bouldering, concentrating on the moves but with an increase in duration and exhiliration by the height. your right limestone isnt beautiful sometimes, but go to places like siurana and then tell me its not beautiful.
as i always say to people that climb but dont 'get' sport; your not doing it right! your either treating it like trad and goig up stuff thats too easy, the idea is to push yourself to the limit (sorry!) or your getting spanked and dont like it.
ive never got the same sense of achievment from bouldering as i have sport, even tho ive done 'harder' and better on the boulders.
but its ok to not to get it. thats why we have different types,
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
It's the same as bouldering but offering longer flowing sequences that can be more endurance based rather that pure power. This suits some people more than others.
It's the same as bouldering but offering longer flowing sequences that can be more endurance based rather that pure power. This suits some people more than others.
I agree about the pushing bit. Its like you can be a bit of a hooligan and still have fun in safety, I know what you mean. And I agree that the sport climbing settings certainly have something going for them!
BUT, I think I like going sport climbing because I have a long way to go in my climbing career. I can gain a lot from pushing the boat out physically, but for me its a means to an end. When it comes down to minor errors in sequences and working on something for months and months, I dont see the pleasure. I dont understand the obsessive top end people. It just seems boring and almost pathetic. But then I suppose that logic could be applied to top end trad routes, though less so, perhaps.
BUT, I think I like going sport climbing because I have a long way to go in my climbing career. I can gain a lot from pushing the boat out physically, but for me its a means to an end. When it comes down to minor errors in sequences and working on something for months and months, I dont see the pleasure. I dont understand the obsessive top end people. It just seems boring and almost pathetic. But then I suppose that logic could be applied to top end trad routes, though less so, perhaps.
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
A quick search on here would reveal that you're not the first person to ask this question, and I imagine you'll get pretty much the standard replies that everyone else has in the past.
In short, mark above outlines the attraction very well (at least it tallies with my own thoughts on the matter): "I see sport as an extension of bouldering, concentrating on the moves but with an increase in duration and exhiliration by the height."
Personally, I do it because I enjoy it. I enjoy it a lot - so I do it a lot. I also enjoy trad and bouldering, so I do those too. With sport climbing I can get in a more sustained amount of climbing moves and less 'faff' than I do with trad. That's about it: sport climbing maximises what I enjoy.
A quick search on here would reveal that you're not the first person to ask this question, and I imagine you'll get pretty much the standard replies that everyone else has in the past.
In short, mark above outlines the attraction very well (at least it tallies with my own thoughts on the matter): "I see sport as an extension of bouldering, concentrating on the moves but with an increase in duration and exhiliration by the height."
Personally, I do it because I enjoy it. I enjoy it a lot - so I do it a lot. I also enjoy trad and bouldering, so I do those too. With sport climbing I can get in a more sustained amount of climbing moves and less 'faff' than I do with trad. That's about it: sport climbing maximises what I enjoy.
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
I think you're confusing redpointing with sport climbing. The former is only a subset of the latter. You're still allowed to onsight in sport climbing.
> When it comes down to minor errors in sequences and working on something for months and months, I dont see the pleasure.
I think you're confusing redpointing with sport climbing. The former is only a subset of the latter. You're still allowed to onsight in sport climbing.
In reply to Fraser:
But why do mainly trad climbers on-sight sport climbs?
And why do so few sport climbers climb trad?
> (In reply to Lupine Lacuna)
> [...]
>
> I think you're confusing redpointing with sport climbing. The former is only a subset of the latter. You're still allowed to onsight in sport climbing.
> [...]
>
> I think you're confusing redpointing with sport climbing. The former is only a subset of the latter. You're still allowed to onsight in sport climbing.
But why do mainly trad climbers on-sight sport climbs?
And why do so few sport climbers climb trad?
In reply to NorthernRock:
I didn't realise that was the case. (Do they only on-sight trad too?)
From my experience, pretty much everyone who sports climbs, also climbs trad. In my circle of climbing friends, I can only think of one who no longer climbs trad, he just does sport and bouldering, both of which he is very strong at. And if he went back to trad now, I bet he would (or could) be much better at it than he used to be.
>
> But why do mainly trad climbers on-sight sport climbs?
> But why do mainly trad climbers on-sight sport climbs?
I didn't realise that was the case. (Do they only on-sight trad too?)
>
> And why do so few sport climbers climb trad?
> And why do so few sport climbers climb trad?
From my experience, pretty much everyone who sports climbs, also climbs trad. In my circle of climbing friends, I can only think of one who no longer climbs trad, he just does sport and bouldering, both of which he is very strong at. And if he went back to trad now, I bet he would (or could) be much better at it than he used to be.
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
That logic can be applied to any area of endeavour (e.g. scientific discovery) where people are putting in the effort.
Mick
>
> When it comes down to minor errors in sequences and working on something for months and months, I dont see the pleasure. I dont understand the obsessive top end people. It just seems boring and almost pathetic. But then I suppose that logic could be applied to top end trad routes, though less so, perhaps.
> When it comes down to minor errors in sequences and working on something for months and months, I dont see the pleasure. I dont understand the obsessive top end people. It just seems boring and almost pathetic. But then I suppose that logic could be applied to top end trad routes, though less so, perhaps.
That logic can be applied to any area of endeavour (e.g. scientific discovery) where people are putting in the effort.
Mick
But Mick, I personally do completely understand the point of um=nclimbed faces and the obsessiveness of Steve House, for example
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
i love it, because its just about climbing.
not about gear, not about placements, not about staying warm, not about just 2 or 3 moves.
sometimes its nice to not worry about death all the time.
i like the rest too, but sometimes i like to isolate the pure pleasure of just climbing and just punch it out, clipping the odd bolt.
it beats top roping because the falls are still there so my heads still focussed.
i love it, because its just about climbing.
not about gear, not about placements, not about staying warm, not about just 2 or 3 moves.
sometimes its nice to not worry about death all the time.
i like the rest too, but sometimes i like to isolate the pure pleasure of just climbing and just punch it out, clipping the odd bolt.
it beats top roping because the falls are still there so my heads still focussed.
In reply to mark_wellin:
I can't eat strawberry icecream without a trip to hospital, so I have good reason for prefering chocolate.
> (In reply to Lupine Lacuna)
>
> thats like saying 'why do some poeple like strawberry icecream, and others chocolate?'
>
>
> thats like saying 'why do some poeple like strawberry icecream, and others chocolate?'
>
I can't eat strawberry icecream without a trip to hospital, so I have good reason for prefering chocolate.
Yes excatly, as a fun and auxilary activity. But some people, ie a hell of a lot of Europeans do it and nothing else.
In reply to Lupine Lacuna: I'm guilty of chucking a top rope on routes at my limit to work out the moves before a lead. Some of my mates only go sport climbing and I want to get them into trad, they only do it though because of the cost of gear. I think if they had to stop and place gear it'll knock their grades down slightly but if you have a runout on a sport route isn't it the same as a runout on trad?
P.S. I've never done a sport route so it's a genuine question
P.S. I've never done a sport route so it's a genuine question
In reply to Lupine Lacuna: Some people annoy me, i havent read all the replies on this topic but time and time again people slate sport. I am primarily a trad climber. But sport is so good, 1. maybe you cant afford cams/nuts etc 2. you just wanna have a bit of fun with mates with minimal risks as you dont have to worry about gear.
I go to sport now and then just to test myself on some hard route i wouldnt dream of doing on trad. Getting a bit of an extra work out to build my strength.
There are so many reasons for all different types of climbing.
I go to sport now and then just to test myself on some hard route i wouldnt dream of doing on trad. Getting a bit of an extra work out to build my strength.
There are so many reasons for all different types of climbing.
In reply to Lupine Lacuna: There is not much in the way of low to mid grade sport climbing in Scotland. Its mostly trad up here, and that is fine. I love doing it. But placing gear on trad routes is part of the difficulty, part of the game you have to play with your head. The over-coming the not falling bit is for me a big part of the trad game.
As other have said though with sport climbing you can just concentrate on the climbing and not worry about placing the gear.
I recently came back from 2 weeks sport climbing on the Costa Blanca. We climbed nearly 50 routes, 80 odd pitches and on half a dozen crags. We did loads of single pitch routes, 2, 3 or 4 pitch routes and a long 8 pitch day. Add all on bolts. It was fantastic. Just loads of climbing.
As other have said though with sport climbing you can just concentrate on the climbing and not worry about placing the gear.
I recently came back from 2 weeks sport climbing on the Costa Blanca. We climbed nearly 50 routes, 80 odd pitches and on half a dozen crags. We did loads of single pitch routes, 2, 3 or 4 pitch routes and a long 8 pitch day. Add all on bolts. It was fantastic. Just loads of climbing.
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
Well bouldering doesn't provide you with 50+ meter pitches for starters
and if overhanging limestone doesn't appeal to you that's your - and I won't say loss because it isn't to you - aesthetic choice. I do a lot of sport and enjoy it but get most reward from trad climbing. I wouldn't like to do either to the exclusion of the other, Bouldering however, I can go without - and have to at the moment due to a dodgy knee!
>
> What I dont understand is where sport fits in? All the above fill a cetain niche, whereas the existence of bouldering seems to make sport seem pointless. Its less pure, more anoraky and much les beautiful. For example I fail to see the beauty of steep overhanging limestone. If I look at Birketts recent climb, conversely, and that big, bare bit of rock it looks wonderful. I admire people like Sharma but I never dream of doing it myself.
>
> So I ask, genuinly out of interest, given the existence of bouldering, what do sport climbers get out of sport that they don't other types of climbing?
>
> Thanks
> What I dont understand is where sport fits in? All the above fill a cetain niche, whereas the existence of bouldering seems to make sport seem pointless. Its less pure, more anoraky and much les beautiful. For example I fail to see the beauty of steep overhanging limestone. If I look at Birketts recent climb, conversely, and that big, bare bit of rock it looks wonderful. I admire people like Sharma but I never dream of doing it myself.
>
> So I ask, genuinly out of interest, given the existence of bouldering, what do sport climbers get out of sport that they don't other types of climbing?
>
> Thanks
Well bouldering doesn't provide you with 50+ meter pitches for starters
and if overhanging limestone doesn't appeal to you that's your - and I won't say loss because it isn't to you - aesthetic choice. I do a lot of sport and enjoy it but get most reward from trad climbing. I wouldn't like to do either to the exclusion of the other, Bouldering however, I can go without - and have to at the moment due to a dodgy knee!
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
Sport is more an attitude you bring to a climb than an inherent property of the climb itself - well-rehearsed headpoints have more in common with sport mentality than with bumbly onsighting.
Sport is more an attitude you bring to a climb than an inherent property of the climb itself - well-rehearsed headpoints have more in common with sport mentality than with bumbly onsighting.
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
Maybe because there is some fantastic Sport Climbing on the continent. There is not so much of a trad ethic abroad, so many of the premier crags get bolted. I didn't really understand the appeal of Sport until I got on some big multi pitch routes in Switzerland ...great continuous climbing and as others have said minimal faff factor.
In the UK I am firmly in the trad camp as I prefer multi-pitching and find the aesthetics of most of our Sports venues unappealing.
> Yes excatly, as a fun and auxilary activity. But some people, ie a hell of a lot of Europeans do it and nothing else.
Maybe because there is some fantastic Sport Climbing on the continent. There is not so much of a trad ethic abroad, so many of the premier crags get bolted. I didn't really understand the appeal of Sport until I got on some big multi pitch routes in Switzerland ...great continuous climbing and as others have said minimal faff factor.
In the UK I am firmly in the trad camp as I prefer multi-pitching and find the aesthetics of most of our Sports venues unappealing.
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
To me sport climbing is the climbing equivalent of a burger, it is quick and easy when you just want the work out without too much thought involved.
What I like about the UK is that sport and trad can exist side by side (ok not on the same crags but you know what I mean). If I have a criticism of sport is it of those continental crags with fantastic natural lines that would easily take trad pro being carved up into rows of straight up straight down clip exercises quite oblivious to the natural lines of the rock. So that one potentially great route is reduced to half a dozen mediocre ones.
To me sport climbing is the climbing equivalent of a burger, it is quick and easy when you just want the work out without too much thought involved.
What I like about the UK is that sport and trad can exist side by side (ok not on the same crags but you know what I mean). If I have a criticism of sport is it of those continental crags with fantastic natural lines that would easily take trad pro being carved up into rows of straight up straight down clip exercises quite oblivious to the natural lines of the rock. So that one potentially great route is reduced to half a dozen mediocre ones.
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
When it comes down to minor errors in sequences and working on something for months and months, I dont see the pleasure. I dont understand the obsessive top end people. It just seems boring and almost pathetic. But then I suppose that logic could be applied to top end trad routes, though less so, perhaps.
You can do exactly the same thing bouldering too, I can understand how you'd see at as boring but don't really understand your use of the word pathetic. I mean, if you think *that's* pathetic what do you think about say, hundred metre runners, who do literally exactly the same thing (run 100 metres in a straight line as fast as they can) wherever they do it, no variation at all, and will train completely obsessively in the pursuit of that one aim. I'd hate to think what word you'd use to describe them...
When it comes down to minor errors in sequences and working on something for months and months, I dont see the pleasure. I dont understand the obsessive top end people. It just seems boring and almost pathetic. But then I suppose that logic could be applied to top end trad routes, though less so, perhaps.
You can do exactly the same thing bouldering too, I can understand how you'd see at as boring but don't really understand your use of the word pathetic. I mean, if you think *that's* pathetic what do you think about say, hundred metre runners, who do literally exactly the same thing (run 100 metres in a straight line as fast as they can) wherever they do it, no variation at all, and will train completely obsessively in the pursuit of that one aim. I'd hate to think what word you'd use to describe them...
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
As Mick pointed out, that logic could be applied to any sport, pastime, hobby or job. For example, why does the 100m runner train full time just to shave milliseconds off his personal best?
At the end of the day, sport climbing is just another one of climbing's games - I suggest you hunt out and read Lito Tejada-Flores' "Games Climbers Play" essay. It was written a while ago but is very valid today.
Also, you're not alone in "not seeing the point of sport climbing", plenty of illustrious climbers have gone before you with the same opinion.
It's not one I share though - once a route has got its hooks in you, they can be difficult to shake...!
> When it comes down to minor errors in sequences and working on something for months and months, I dont see the pleasure. I dont understand the obsessive top end people. It just seems boring and almost pathetic. But then I suppose that logic could be applied to top end trad routes, though less so, perhaps.
As Mick pointed out, that logic could be applied to any sport, pastime, hobby or job. For example, why does the 100m runner train full time just to shave milliseconds off his personal best?
At the end of the day, sport climbing is just another one of climbing's games - I suggest you hunt out and read Lito Tejada-Flores' "Games Climbers Play" essay. It was written a while ago but is very valid today.
Also, you're not alone in "not seeing the point of sport climbing", plenty of illustrious climbers have gone before you with the same opinion.
It's not one I share though - once a route has got its hooks in you, they can be difficult to shake...!
In reply to @ndyM@rsh@ll:
Hah! Snap. I should have read the whole thread.
I also think the OP's use of pathetic is a bit too emotive.
> I mean, if you think *that's* pathetic what do you think about say, hundred metre runners, who do literally exactly the same thing (run 100 metres in a straight line as fast as they can) wherever they do it, no variation at all, and will train completely obsessively in the pursuit of that one aim. I'd hate to think what word you'd use to describe them...
Hah! Snap. I should have read the whole thread.
I also think the OP's use of pathetic is a bit too emotive.
In reply to Alun: When someone asks this sort of question, i always think it just shows a lack of self awareness, as it basically boils down to "what is the point of anyone doing something which i don't personally enjoy?".
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
I wAs in a similar situation a year ago, but exactly the opposite. Never saw the need for trad. It took ages the climbing wasnt as hard and it took time away from sport. But having got into to do my spa I completely see the appeal now. You just have to look at the two things in a completely different way. Trad is about the whole experience. And the skills involved aren't just climbing, it's gear placements, problem solving, working out your belays etc. All veryfun and not actually to do with the climbing.
When we go out and it's raining, we say it's trad weather because it doesn't need to be dy to do it because the actual climbing is only a fraction of the experience. Having said that I can't do more than a few days if that in one go as I get bored standing around etc.
I wAs in a similar situation a year ago, but exactly the opposite. Never saw the need for trad. It took ages the climbing wasnt as hard and it took time away from sport. But having got into to do my spa I completely see the appeal now. You just have to look at the two things in a completely different way. Trad is about the whole experience. And the skills involved aren't just climbing, it's gear placements, problem solving, working out your belays etc. All veryfun and not actually to do with the climbing.
When we go out and it's raining, we say it's trad weather because it doesn't need to be dy to do it because the actual climbing is only a fraction of the experience. Having said that I can't do more than a few days if that in one go as I get bored standing around etc.
In reply to mark_wellin:
errmm up to a point!
> (In reply to Lupine Lacuna)
>
>
>
> When we go out and it's raining, we say it's trad weather because it doesn't need to be dy to do it
> When we go out and it's raining, we say it's trad weather because it doesn't need to be dy to do it
errmm up to a point!
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
Sorry posts like this really p*ss me off sometimes! Sport vs trad...to bolt or not to bolt...wanted beta for Cenotaph corner...can I climb right wall...and now even mountain biking vs road.
Sorry posts like this really p*ss me off sometimes! Sport vs trad...to bolt or not to bolt...wanted beta for Cenotaph corner...can I climb right wall...and now even mountain biking vs road.
In reply to Lupine Lacuna: Come out to El Chorro - its warm and sunny at the moment. Climb a 30m overhanging sport route on massive holds with the sun on your back and finish the day off with a cold beer... fun times!!!
In reply to Lupine Lacuna: As someone who is almost solely a sport climber I love the challenge of working a route at, or beyond my limit, spending days or weeks finding the best way unlock a sequence. The joy of redpointing something at my absolute max is like nothing else in climbing.
Andy F
Andy F
In reply to andy farnell:
For me, getting a hard move or sequence right, onsight, above a fair runout on natural gear is the most exhilerating feeling in climbing. I haven't really got the attention span for hard redpointing or bouldering.
That, to me, is what's so great about the world of climbing. Whatever your tastes and ambitions, there's something to suit you. There isn't really any such thing as one discipline being better than another, just different strokes for different folks.
> (In reply to Lupine Lacuna) The joy of redpointing something at my absolute max is like nothing else in climbing.
>
> Andy F
>
> Andy F
For me, getting a hard move or sequence right, onsight, above a fair runout on natural gear is the most exhilerating feeling in climbing. I haven't really got the attention span for hard redpointing or bouldering.
That, to me, is what's so great about the world of climbing. Whatever your tastes and ambitions, there's something to suit you. There isn't really any such thing as one discipline being better than another, just different strokes for different folks.
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
this is the opposite of my sport climbing experience which usually involves redpointing and huge satisfaction when you tick your project.
Trad is quick and easy compared to redpointing!
> (In reply to Lupine Lacuna)
> To me sport climbing is the climbing equivalent of a burger, it is quick and easy when you just want the work out without too much thought involved.
>> To me sport climbing is the climbing equivalent of a burger, it is quick and easy when you just want the work out without too much thought involved.
this is the opposite of my sport climbing experience which usually involves redpointing and huge satisfaction when you tick your project.
Trad is quick and easy compared to redpointing!
In reply to teflonpete:
that just about sums it up to the original poster-basically you dont have to get why someone else likes something
> Whatever your tastes and ambitions, there's something to suit you.
that just about sums it up to the original poster-basically you dont have to get why someone else likes something
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
I'm sure you are asking out of genuine interest. But as everyone else has said it's a question of personal choice.
So since it doesn't interest you, you stick to all the other types of climbing you like, and I'll enjoy my sports climbing - which I love and which fulfills all climbing needs in me, even though I also enjoy trad. If people who agree with you stick to what they enjoy maybe our sports climbing crags won't get too busy!
I'm sure you are asking out of genuine interest. But as everyone else has said it's a question of personal choice.
So since it doesn't interest you, you stick to all the other types of climbing you like, and I'll enjoy my sports climbing - which I love and which fulfills all climbing needs in me, even though I also enjoy trad. If people who agree with you stick to what they enjoy maybe our sports climbing crags won't get too busy!
In reply to sebrider:
There can't be much for you to like on UKC then?
> (In reply to Lupine Lacuna)
> Sorry posts like this really p*ss me off sometimes! Sport vs trad...to bolt or not to bolt...wanted beta for Cenotaph corner...can I climb right wall...and now even mountain biking vs road.
> Sorry posts like this really p*ss me off sometimes! Sport vs trad...to bolt or not to bolt...wanted beta for Cenotaph corner...can I climb right wall...and now even mountain biking vs road.
There can't be much for you to like on UKC then?
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
I agree with your notion about sport. After a few years climbing at Skaha in BC Canada, I came to the realization that sport is like "fast food", very satisfying at the time, but not very memorable --- unlike the delicious multi-course feast sometimes experienced in trad climbing.
I enjoy both forms because I like the motion of climbing. Given the choice though I'd opt for trad, because in some ways I'm set in my ways because there was no sport when I started.
I agree with your notion about sport. After a few years climbing at Skaha in BC Canada, I came to the realization that sport is like "fast food", very satisfying at the time, but not very memorable --- unlike the delicious multi-course feast sometimes experienced in trad climbing.
I enjoy both forms because I like the motion of climbing. Given the choice though I'd opt for trad, because in some ways I'm set in my ways because there was no sport when I started.
In reply to Rory Shaw:
Out of curiosity, if there are so many massive holds does it really need to be bolted?
> (In reply to Lupine Lacuna) .... Climb a 30m overhanging sport route on massive holds ....
Out of curiosity, if there are so many massive holds does it really need to be bolted?
In reply to loose overhang: That's a good analogy - fast food. I miss trad since I moved down to SW France. British trad is steeped in history and has character to spare. Much of the continental sport is conversely characterless, and quite forgettable - just another line of dinky pockets.
However, I nevertheless enjoy sport. To concur with many other posts: it's quick, accessible and escapeable in dodgy weather. It's very useful for coaching beginners, and when climbing as a group 3+. When the team/group have mixed abilities it's especially useful as all can select and climb at their own grade (given the right crag choice).
Sport and trad are not always exclusive. At Cavallers and other Spanish crags I know, intelligent bolting has created superb multi-pitch outings; but the bolts are only placed where natural pro is unavailable.
The mass of continental climbers have grown up with sport climbing, and trad presents too great risks (numerous opinions passed on); a positive outcome for trad enthusiasts is that the natural lines are unlikely to be crowded.
However, I nevertheless enjoy sport. To concur with many other posts: it's quick, accessible and escapeable in dodgy weather. It's very useful for coaching beginners, and when climbing as a group 3+. When the team/group have mixed abilities it's especially useful as all can select and climb at their own grade (given the right crag choice).
Sport and trad are not always exclusive. At Cavallers and other Spanish crags I know, intelligent bolting has created superb multi-pitch outings; but the bolts are only placed where natural pro is unavailable.
The mass of continental climbers have grown up with sport climbing, and trad presents too great risks (numerous opinions passed on); a positive outcome for trad enthusiasts is that the natural lines are unlikely to be crowded.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
yes
yes
In reply to Lupine Lacuna: Lets use the analogy of a 16 yr old boy who can't go for more than 60 seconds in bed. He's young, inexperience, get nervous cause he lacks experience in these sort of situations or environment. It's similar to bouldering, quick, fast, not much thought requires to go into working out the sequence, before you know it, it's OVER! BAMMM WAMMM!!!
Or would I prefer being a man in bed? I think you know where I'm going with this so i'm not going to go on details what my analogy is about being a man in bed = to sports climbing.
All in seriousness, this is a topic that has been discussed over and over again, it's like someone that likes chococalte vs someone that likes vanilla, there is no right or wrong or which one is better.. I personally like bouldering and sports climbing...the above is just for jokes..
Or would I prefer being a man in bed? I think you know where I'm going with this so i'm not going to go on details what my analogy is about being a man in bed = to sports climbing.
All in seriousness, this is a topic that has been discussed over and over again, it's like someone that likes chococalte vs someone that likes vanilla, there is no right or wrong or which one is better.. I personally like bouldering and sports climbing...the above is just for jokes..
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
My girlfriend thinks that all climbing is pointless*. She says its just 'scampering up rocks'. I guess it is. Ultimatly none of the various brands of climbing are inherantly useful, if I had managed to redpoint the 7b I attempted yesterday, instead of flailing around like a punter once I'd figured out the moves, would that really have made a difference to the world? Would people remember it 10 years from now? Probabably not, but climbing is a personal thing. Couple of guys went up 'Crow' an E3 right next to my climb, and personally it didn't look like a lot of fun, lots of faff and standing on ledges sorting out ropes, but hey, I wouldn't have branded what they were doing as pointless anymore then all human endevour is ultimatly pointless.
The second I tire of sport climbing, I'll also have tired of life.
*(Apparently she can sort of see how sport climbing makes sense but thinks that trad climbing is stupid. No argument from me.)
My girlfriend thinks that all climbing is pointless*. She says its just 'scampering up rocks'. I guess it is. Ultimatly none of the various brands of climbing are inherantly useful, if I had managed to redpoint the 7b I attempted yesterday, instead of flailing around like a punter once I'd figured out the moves, would that really have made a difference to the world? Would people remember it 10 years from now? Probabably not, but climbing is a personal thing. Couple of guys went up 'Crow' an E3 right next to my climb, and personally it didn't look like a lot of fun, lots of faff and standing on ledges sorting out ropes, but hey, I wouldn't have branded what they were doing as pointless anymore then all human endevour is ultimatly pointless.
The second I tire of sport climbing, I'll also have tired of life.
*(Apparently she can sort of see how sport climbing makes sense but thinks that trad climbing is stupid. No argument from me.)
In reply to JKinsella:
A girlfriend of mine put put climbing in its place for all time. A friend asked her if she minded my going off climbing every weekend. The reply was crushing. "Oh it's really sweet. You should see their little faces when they come home with their little skinned knees. They've had such a lovely time. It would be cruel to stop them."
And we thought we were being so hard!
> (In reply to Lupine Lacuna)
>
> My girlfriend thinks that all climbing is pointless*.
>
> My girlfriend thinks that all climbing is pointless*.
A girlfriend of mine put put climbing in its place for all time. A friend asked her if she minded my going off climbing every weekend. The reply was crushing. "Oh it's really sweet. You should see their little faces when they come home with their little skinned knees. They've had such a lovely time. It would be cruel to stop them."
And we thought we were being so hard!
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
do i need to?
its rock, it was bolted, its now a sport climb? how are there any questions?
do i need to?
its rock, it was bolted, its now a sport climb? how are there any questions?
Sport climbing is all about the moves, the sweet flowing sensation you get when legs, arms and head are working synergically to solve the beatiful line on the rock that you set out to achieve. When you get it right it just feels right and it can be the most rewarding feeling. I guess trad can be the same thing but you're too worried about staying alive than enjoying the actual climb. I love trad too though.
In reply to mark_wellin:
Do you know the climb in question? If so I was wondering how come if there were so many big holds then it was not possible to protect it without bolts. If you don't know the climb then there's not much point in answering.
Do you know the climb in question? If so I was wondering how come if there were so many big holds then it was not possible to protect it without bolts. If you don't know the climb then there's not much point in answering.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Bruce are you being serious with your question?
Why would you place gear on a perfectly formed sport route and ruin it?
Sam
Bruce are you being serious with your question?
Why would you place gear on a perfectly formed sport route and ruin it?
Sam
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
he didnt name a route did he?
nope... and big holds dont mean gear placements does it? im thinking rigolos here.
your angling for a bolt argument here... your not going to get one.
sport routes are there because people like them, get over it.
why dont you put your argumentative energy into something else, knitting or something like that, keeps your hands busy and out of other peoples faces
he didnt name a route did he?
nope... and big holds dont mean gear placements does it? im thinking rigolos here.
your angling for a bolt argument here... your not going to get one.
sport routes are there because people like them, get over it.
why dont you put your argumentative energy into something else, knitting or something like that, keeps your hands busy and out of other peoples faces
In reply to mark_wellin:
So you don't know the climb involved, I thought you didn't... so your last sentence would seem to apply to you more than me.
So you don't know the climb involved, I thought you didn't... so your last sentence would seem to apply to you more than me.
In reply to Sam Mayfield:
Yes.
How can removable gear ruin a route? The inverse is clearly true, bolting a route that can be done without bolts clearly ruins a trad route but the opposite is obviously nonsense.
> (In reply to Bruce Hooker)
>
> Bruce are you being serious with your question?
>
> Bruce are you being serious with your question?
Yes.
>
> Why would you place gear on a perfectly formed sport route and ruin it?
> Why would you place gear on a perfectly formed sport route and ruin it?
How can removable gear ruin a route? The inverse is clearly true, bolting a route that can be done without bolts clearly ruins a trad route but the opposite is obviously nonsense.
In reply to andy farnell:
But putting bolts in obviously f*cks you off, and will hopefully keep you away. So this seems a good thing.
Sport climbing is good.
Rather than trying to be clever and talking about specific routes. Why not tAke the hint and jog on. My example is very valid. Beside that it doesn't matter if it is or not. Sport climbing is here to stay because it's fun. People will bolt stuff because they want to. Your very welcome to go and chop bolts. Just stop trying to drag threads down into a stupid argument. Your boring! The same drone is boring.
But putting bolts in obviously f*cks you off, and will hopefully keep you away. So this seems a good thing.
Sport climbing is good.
Rather than trying to be clever and talking about specific routes. Why not tAke the hint and jog on. My example is very valid. Beside that it doesn't matter if it is or not. Sport climbing is here to stay because it's fun. People will bolt stuff because they want to. Your very welcome to go and chop bolts. Just stop trying to drag threads down into a stupid argument. Your boring! The same drone is boring.
In reply to mark_wellin:
You are pretty boring too as you seem blocked on an issue and refuse any discussion that doesn't fit in with your obsession. In case you haven't noticed this thread is about bolting, it is a fairly obvious troll to bring pillocks like you in with their frothing outrage...
I was wondering why a route with big jugs needed to be bolted, all I have so far is froth and rage from people like you and the eternal Sam the bolt, it seems unlikely that I will get a sensible answer to my question, so if you have nothing to contribute and are fed up with bolting debates why do you bother posting on this thread. No one forces you too, there must be a nice new copy of the Daily Mail for you to read this morning instead.
You are pretty boring too as you seem blocked on an issue and refuse any discussion that doesn't fit in with your obsession. In case you haven't noticed this thread is about bolting, it is a fairly obvious troll to bring pillocks like you in with their frothing outrage...
I was wondering why a route with big jugs needed to be bolted, all I have so far is froth and rage from people like you and the eternal Sam the bolt, it seems unlikely that I will get a sensible answer to my question, so if you have nothing to contribute and are fed up with bolting debates why do you bother posting on this thread. No one forces you too, there must be a nice new copy of the Daily Mail for you to read this morning instead.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Why? If you want to place traddy cams and things, just ignore the bolts and do so. I could understand if the bolts were say jammed into a crack you wanted to put a cam in, but they aren't. bolts are put into solid flat rock otherwise they're pretty useless.
In answer to the OP, what's the point? Climbing. Does there need to be another?
> ...bolting a route that can be done without bolts clearly ruins a trad route
Why? If you want to place traddy cams and things, just ignore the bolts and do so. I could understand if the bolts were say jammed into a crack you wanted to put a cam in, but they aren't. bolts are put into solid flat rock otherwise they're pretty useless.
In answer to the OP, what's the point? Climbing. Does there need to be another?
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
There is no 'point' to any form of climbing, in fact it is totally 'pointless'.
Chris
There is no 'point' to any form of climbing, in fact it is totally 'pointless'.
Chris
In reply to Bruce Hooker: Can you not see though that not everyone wants to climb trad ? Even if a route can take trad protection why should it be a trad route and therefore exclude peolpe who like sports climbing ?
You are a loud voice in a fading argument.
You are a loud voice in a fading argument.
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
For me sport climbing is about the joy of movement over difficult rock - same as bouldering but goes on for longer! Part of the attraction is doing the moves perfectly so that you beat the ticking clock of forearm fatigue.
Trad is brilliant too but to get the same physical challenge as sport climbing you have to be comfortable with pretty high levels of danger. That's cool but it's not for everyone.
I agree that trad usually involves more attractive settings, at least in the UK, but disagree that generically it involves blank rock and small holds - at the grades at which most people operate the reverse is true. Sport climbing rock tends to be much 'blanker' which is why it is bolted.
In my experience most people who are keen sport climbers also like trad, and do it quite a lot. The reverse appears to be much less true. To make a generalisation, I'd also venture to say that most keen sport climbers are way better trad climbers than people who define themselves as trad climbers.
Anyone who has spent a lot of effort on a sport redpoint at their limit also knows that it is not quick, convenient or easy compared to a trad onsight. It does involve less faffing around with ropes though.
In short, all different types of climbing have little parts of others within them. Which type of climbing you like most depends on what you like about climbing. This might change over time and experience.
For me sport climbing is about the joy of movement over difficult rock - same as bouldering but goes on for longer! Part of the attraction is doing the moves perfectly so that you beat the ticking clock of forearm fatigue.
Trad is brilliant too but to get the same physical challenge as sport climbing you have to be comfortable with pretty high levels of danger. That's cool but it's not for everyone.
I agree that trad usually involves more attractive settings, at least in the UK, but disagree that generically it involves blank rock and small holds - at the grades at which most people operate the reverse is true. Sport climbing rock tends to be much 'blanker' which is why it is bolted.
In my experience most people who are keen sport climbers also like trad, and do it quite a lot. The reverse appears to be much less true. To make a generalisation, I'd also venture to say that most keen sport climbers are way better trad climbers than people who define themselves as trad climbers.
Anyone who has spent a lot of effort on a sport redpoint at their limit also knows that it is not quick, convenient or easy compared to a trad onsight. It does involve less faffing around with ropes though.
In short, all different types of climbing have little parts of others within them. Which type of climbing you like most depends on what you like about climbing. This might change over time and experience.
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
It's only a game so I suppose the 'right' answer is there's no real point in it if you don't enjoy it.
On the other hand... Plenty of people do enjoy it. Much like bouldering it offers the ability to climb hard moves and sequences in relative safety. It also allows you to place those moves in a larger context bringing tactics, memory, endurance and mental control into the picture. Think of it as an amalgam of sport and trad, it is at heart basically just climbing, climbing in a variety of different styles from onsight to multi-year sieges, 10m boulder problems on string to huge stamina-sapping walls, you choose how you use the routes.
To be honest, I never 'got it' for years. I dabbled around the 6a mark, then the 6b mark then 6c then a few bolt-clipping holidays... none of it made any sense but I was mostly climbing onsight or at least aiming to. It wasn't until I got stuck into some redpointing that it made sense. You need to change your mindset, it's not about aesthetics or line or beauty, it's an athletic and mental challenge on rock. Even then having started redpointing it took a while, you have to put the work in to get the reward, the more work the greater the reward. The problem is up front you're putting in work for an unknown reward on a route you don't know you can do. Frankly it all feels a bit daft but it's worth sticking with it for a few sessions. The satisfaction of solving a puzzle, refining it to save every last ounce of energy then stringing it all together boxed out of your mind with the pressure of knowing this is your last go as your arms begin to fade is worth the risk you might have bitten off more than you can chew.
jk
It's only a game so I suppose the 'right' answer is there's no real point in it if you don't enjoy it.
On the other hand... Plenty of people do enjoy it. Much like bouldering it offers the ability to climb hard moves and sequences in relative safety. It also allows you to place those moves in a larger context bringing tactics, memory, endurance and mental control into the picture. Think of it as an amalgam of sport and trad, it is at heart basically just climbing, climbing in a variety of different styles from onsight to multi-year sieges, 10m boulder problems on string to huge stamina-sapping walls, you choose how you use the routes.
To be honest, I never 'got it' for years. I dabbled around the 6a mark, then the 6b mark then 6c then a few bolt-clipping holidays... none of it made any sense but I was mostly climbing onsight or at least aiming to. It wasn't until I got stuck into some redpointing that it made sense. You need to change your mindset, it's not about aesthetics or line or beauty, it's an athletic and mental challenge on rock. Even then having started redpointing it took a while, you have to put the work in to get the reward, the more work the greater the reward. The problem is up front you're putting in work for an unknown reward on a route you don't know you can do. Frankly it all feels a bit daft but it's worth sticking with it for a few sessions. The satisfaction of solving a puzzle, refining it to save every last ounce of energy then stringing it all together boxed out of your mind with the pressure of knowing this is your last go as your arms begin to fade is worth the risk you might have bitten off more than you can chew.
jk
In reply to jkarran:
Interesting that. I've slowly been getting more into sports climbing and have managed to shift up to 6b/+ on a v good day but I always onsight. I'm not sure I could redpoint a lot harder and I'm not sure I can be bothered with the redpoint faff. I mostly sports climb abroad and not sure I'd want to camp out at one crag to do a respoint project. But maybe I would enjoy it if I tried.
> To be honest, I never 'got it' for years. I dabbled around the 6a mark, then the 6b mark then 6c then a few bolt-clipping holidays... none of it made any sense but I was mostly climbing onsight or at least aiming to. It wasn't until I got stuck into some redpointing that it made sense.
Interesting that. I've slowly been getting more into sports climbing and have managed to shift up to 6b/+ on a v good day but I always onsight. I'm not sure I could redpoint a lot harder and I'm not sure I can be bothered with the redpoint faff. I mostly sports climb abroad and not sure I'd want to camp out at one crag to do a respoint project. But maybe I would enjoy it if I tried.
In reply to JonC:
For me redpointing a few routes has become a necessity of having onsighted just about everything I can within a an hours' drive of where I live. And in that sense it has been great as it gives me something to make me want to go back to local crags that I've been too many times before. I take your point though, on holiday its just great to onsight as much as possible.
> I mostly sports climb abroad and not sure I'd want to camp out at one crag to do a respoint project. But maybe I would enjoy it if I tried.
For me redpointing a few routes has become a necessity of having onsighted just about everything I can within a an hours' drive of where I live. And in that sense it has been great as it gives me something to make me want to go back to local crags that I've been too many times before. I take your point though, on holiday its just great to onsight as much as possible.
In reply to jkarran:
I think that's one of the best accounts of what sports climbing is about that I've ever read.
I think that's one of the best accounts of what sports climbing is about that I've ever read.
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
For most, bouldering limits the height of the climbing to what is considered safe. You can go on much higher with sport climbing.
>
> So I ask, genuinly out of interest, given the existence of bouldering, what do sport climbers get out of sport that they don't other types of climbing?
>
> Thanks
> So I ask, genuinly out of interest, given the existence of bouldering, what do sport climbers get out of sport that they don't other types of climbing?
>
> Thanks
For most, bouldering limits the height of the climbing to what is considered safe. You can go on much higher with sport climbing.
In reply to JonC:
I was the same at the start of the summer. 6b+ was the edge of what I could do or that is at least how it felt. Within 6 months I'd added a number grade to that with no specific training, just a change in mindset. I was also enjoying the process greatly, it's very satisfying to be progressing so fast even if the progress isn't real, it's just learning how to apply existing skills to a new game.
It's worth a go in my experience although it's always possible it's just not for you. The key is picking the routes, it has to be a challenge without being demoralising.
As for the faff, it's no worse than other forms of climbing (and in many ways better), you just don't move all your kit on to the next route after your go, just take a break, enjoy the view, have a sandwich. I find I fit more into a redpointing evening than even an outdoor bouldering session.
jk
> Interesting that. I've slowly been getting more into sports climbing and have managed to shift up to 6b/+ on a v good day but I always onsight. I'm not sure I could redpoint a lot harder and I'm not sure I can be bothered with the redpoint faff.
I was the same at the start of the summer. 6b+ was the edge of what I could do or that is at least how it felt. Within 6 months I'd added a number grade to that with no specific training, just a change in mindset. I was also enjoying the process greatly, it's very satisfying to be progressing so fast even if the progress isn't real, it's just learning how to apply existing skills to a new game.
> I mostly sports climb abroad and not sure I'd want to camp out at one crag to do a respoint project. But maybe I would enjoy it if I tried.
It's worth a go in my experience although it's always possible it's just not for you. The key is picking the routes, it has to be a challenge without being demoralising.
As for the faff, it's no worse than other forms of climbing (and in many ways better), you just don't move all your kit on to the next route after your go, just take a break, enjoy the view, have a sandwich. I find I fit more into a redpointing evening than even an outdoor bouldering session.
jk
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
Conversely I have been put of Trad climbing because of this self righteous attitude.
I always wanted to try Trad but lived in fear that after placing my first piece of protection I would feel an uncontrollable desire to log on to UKC on my iphone whilst standing on a Very Severe ledge and renounce all sport climbing and any physical effort.
Conversely I have been put of Trad climbing because of this self righteous attitude.
I always wanted to try Trad but lived in fear that after placing my first piece of protection I would feel an uncontrollable desire to log on to UKC on my iphone whilst standing on a Very Severe ledge and renounce all sport climbing and any physical effort.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
yes, now that's the other thing...
> who holds your rope if it is a protracted session?
yes, now that's the other thing...
In reply to Lupine Lacuna: It's niche is that it is for people who don't consider danger to be an aspect of their climbing but who want to climb endurance routes.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Friends, usually in exchange for me holding their ropes. You're never on the rock for long, if you're working a bit low down then you work that for 10-15min then bail, up high you cheat your way up then do the same, practicing links saps energy so you're up and down quickly. A redpoint go is just that, one go to the top or a fall. You may tickle the holds a bit after the fall but they're all essentially <15min sessions tied on.
Contrast that with trad climbing where 10m can easily take 2hrs+ once the fear sets in... That can really dampen your day as climber or belayer.
jk
Friends, usually in exchange for me holding their ropes. You're never on the rock for long, if you're working a bit low down then you work that for 10-15min then bail, up high you cheat your way up then do the same, practicing links saps energy so you're up and down quickly. A redpoint go is just that, one go to the top or a fall. You may tickle the holds a bit after the fall but they're all essentially <15min sessions tied on.
Contrast that with trad climbing where 10m can easily take 2hrs+ once the fear sets in... That can really dampen your day as climber or belayer.
jk
In reply to Sam Mayfield: Yep, agreed Sam, I only meant loud in the small pond that is UKC - some people on these forums are comically narrow minded.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Indeed, and that makes you wonder what we are all doing talking about it, on website dedicated to pointlessness!
(Hey, just noticed the sun has unexpectedly come out. Mmmmm ...)
> (In reply to Lupine Lacuna)
>
> There is no 'point' to any form of climbing, in fact it is totally 'pointless'.
>
>
> There is no 'point' to any form of climbing, in fact it is totally 'pointless'.
>
Indeed, and that makes you wonder what we are all doing talking about it, on website dedicated to pointlessness!
(Hey, just noticed the sun has unexpectedly come out. Mmmmm ...)
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
Sport climbing (as in red pointing) lets you climb at your limit in style - you have practiced the moves, and honed the sequence to perfection - when you finally succeed, it feels easy and just flows. It's a magic feeling.
Trad on-sight is equally rewarding, but different - usually scary, wobbly and 'thrutchy', and close to the limit it rarely manages to feel flawless (unless you're a super hero). The reward for a hard trad ascent is the feeling that despite you being wobbly and scared you pulled over unscathed.
Sport is about perfection, I think.
Sport climbing (as in red pointing) lets you climb at your limit in style - you have practiced the moves, and honed the sequence to perfection - when you finally succeed, it feels easy and just flows. It's a magic feeling.
Trad on-sight is equally rewarding, but different - usually scary, wobbly and 'thrutchy', and close to the limit it rarely manages to feel flawless (unless you're a super hero). The reward for a hard trad ascent is the feeling that despite you being wobbly and scared you pulled over unscathed.
Sport is about perfection, I think.
In reply to punter and Sam etc:
It's funny how in these oft repeated discussions when some people defend thesis A and others thesis B, there are always people who claim the other side are being stubborn and seem totally incapable of noticing that they are too. In reality if you hold an opinion there is nothing wrong with holding it stubbornly, it's quite normal. What is not normal is when you accuse the other of this as a sin and absolve yourself of the same, very obvious sin.
You are not the pope, are you?
PS. The real reasons for the growth of bolted climbing ("sport climbing" is a poor name as it begs the question) are based on vested and financial interest.
It's funny how in these oft repeated discussions when some people defend thesis A and others thesis B, there are always people who claim the other side are being stubborn and seem totally incapable of noticing that they are too. In reality if you hold an opinion there is nothing wrong with holding it stubbornly, it's quite normal. What is not normal is when you accuse the other of this as a sin and absolve yourself of the same, very obvious sin.
You are not the pope, are you?
PS. The real reasons for the growth of bolted climbing ("sport climbing" is a poor name as it begs the question) are based on vested and financial interest.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Whilst this may or may not be the case in France (you better come to Rockfax's defence in the Vampire thread if it is), if you knew anything about the development of climbing in the UK over the last 25 years, then you would know that your statement is rubbish. In fact it seems rather the opposite, many of the prolific bolters like Gibson have used large amounts of their own money to equip routes, which benefit others who do want to sport climb. How much work Gary has done was brought home to me when I visited Llanmynech this summer - really quite an amazing effort. Also I understand that Nick Dixon has also done huge amounts there as well - so respect to both of them.
> PS. The real reasons for the growth of bolted climbing ("sport climbing" is a poor name as it begs the question) are based on vested and financial interest.
Whilst this may or may not be the case in France (you better come to Rockfax's defence in the Vampire thread if it is), if you knew anything about the development of climbing in the UK over the last 25 years, then you would know that your statement is rubbish. In fact it seems rather the opposite, many of the prolific bolters like Gibson have used large amounts of their own money to equip routes, which benefit others who do want to sport climb. How much work Gary has done was brought home to me when I visited Llanmynech this summer - really quite an amazing effort. Also I understand that Nick Dixon has also done huge amounts there as well - so respect to both of them.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
What a load of twaddle!
I will have a word with all the Spanish bolters that live near me on The Costa Blanca that bolt and bolt and never tell a soul outside of their little group of friends what you think. It will make them laugh lots!
They spend their own money and never expect anything in return except doing the SPORT that they love!
I dont know why I bother to reply to your blinkered views, but someone on here might believe what you say so we have to make sure that doesnt happen.
Sam
What a load of twaddle!
I will have a word with all the Spanish bolters that live near me on The Costa Blanca that bolt and bolt and never tell a soul outside of their little group of friends what you think. It will make them laugh lots!
They spend their own money and never expect anything in return except doing the SPORT that they love!
I dont know why I bother to reply to your blinkered views, but someone on here might believe what you say so we have to make sure that doesnt happen.
Sam
In reply to TobyA:
Hi Toby
I didnt read your reply to Bruce before I typed mine, but nice to see that the same goes on in the "north" as it does here in Spain.
Regards Sam
Hi Toby
I didnt read your reply to Bruce before I typed mine, but nice to see that the same goes on in the "north" as it does here in Spain.
Regards Sam
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Hear hear.
And isn't that what makes it so good, anyway? Time off from the unbearably pointed pointyness of life. It's just about joy.
Hear hear.
And isn't that what makes it so good, anyway? Time off from the unbearably pointed pointyness of life. It's just about joy.
In reply to TobyA:
I don't mean the actual bolters do it for money but what is behind the whole business is just that - business. This is true in Britain as elsewhere. A lot of people start on indoor walls (commercial often) then when they want to go outdoors many find this problematic - if we are to believe the numerous threads on the subject on ukc especially the protection and danger aspects - for them nice ring bolts make sense.
I've had conversations at French crags where this "easyness" aspect often comes up too. But even more so the number of people willing to take the perceived risk of normal climbing is seen as a limiting factor by many clubs and those who promote the sport - they talk of the need to "democratise" climbing, and call any opposition elitist. Obviously those who lead school or adult groups are subject to safety pressures, again ring bolts do the trick, whereas in the case of an accident caused by a protection failure the families of the injured will be asking why they weren't climbing using "proper" safety gear... all of which is a different form of commercial pressure.
As our sport climbers head for the Alps, being unfamiliar with climbing on "unequipped" mountains throws them a bit (again witnessed by numerous threads on the subject), so they go to a guide or a training course - more commercial interest.. and so on. There is a a logical line which doesn't involve everyone but certainly does quite a few.
The various bodies that are involved all seem to feel the need to bring as many people into climbing as possible, as do the climbing gear industry, clubs, even local authorities (maybe more true in France where they see climbing as a way of bringing money into their area and where they often own the crags and are concerned with covering themselves against accidents too).
Guides, training bodies bunkhouse owners etc are obviously keen on getting more people into climbing... never a thought as to where all this will lead, always short term thinking... Bolted climbs appeal to more people, when a crag is being abandoned the call goes up for bolts (witness a recent interesting thread about the Avon gorge)...
The problem is that a lot of this is self defeating, especially on limestone where more people means more polish very quickly, especially on the easier climbs so that after a while far from democratising the crag it becomes crag reserved for strong climbers and the low grade climbers go somewhere else.. Les Saussois in Burgundy is classic example of this.
In other domains people are starting to think about "sustainability", not in climbing apparently.
I don't mean the actual bolters do it for money but what is behind the whole business is just that - business. This is true in Britain as elsewhere. A lot of people start on indoor walls (commercial often) then when they want to go outdoors many find this problematic - if we are to believe the numerous threads on the subject on ukc especially the protection and danger aspects - for them nice ring bolts make sense.
I've had conversations at French crags where this "easyness" aspect often comes up too. But even more so the number of people willing to take the perceived risk of normal climbing is seen as a limiting factor by many clubs and those who promote the sport - they talk of the need to "democratise" climbing, and call any opposition elitist. Obviously those who lead school or adult groups are subject to safety pressures, again ring bolts do the trick, whereas in the case of an accident caused by a protection failure the families of the injured will be asking why they weren't climbing using "proper" safety gear... all of which is a different form of commercial pressure.
As our sport climbers head for the Alps, being unfamiliar with climbing on "unequipped" mountains throws them a bit (again witnessed by numerous threads on the subject), so they go to a guide or a training course - more commercial interest.. and so on. There is a a logical line which doesn't involve everyone but certainly does quite a few.
The various bodies that are involved all seem to feel the need to bring as many people into climbing as possible, as do the climbing gear industry, clubs, even local authorities (maybe more true in France where they see climbing as a way of bringing money into their area and where they often own the crags and are concerned with covering themselves against accidents too).
Guides, training bodies bunkhouse owners etc are obviously keen on getting more people into climbing... never a thought as to where all this will lead, always short term thinking... Bolted climbs appeal to more people, when a crag is being abandoned the call goes up for bolts (witness a recent interesting thread about the Avon gorge)...
The problem is that a lot of this is self defeating, especially on limestone where more people means more polish very quickly, especially on the easier climbs so that after a while far from democratising the crag it becomes crag reserved for strong climbers and the low grade climbers go somewhere else.. Les Saussois in Burgundy is classic example of this.
In other domains people are starting to think about "sustainability", not in climbing apparently.
In reply to Sam Mayfield:
I doubt that Spanish bolters are any more concerned by the long term effects of their activity than those in France are... ecology doesn't seem to be a Mediterranean preoccupation... the coastline is a sad and sorry proof of this! As for their motives, I've already explained what I mean by commercial interests (of which you used to be part IIRC), I know they aren't paid to bolt, but doing a new route and leaving a line of bolts seems to appeal to human vanity more than doing a route a leaving only an ephemeral memory of the experience, a scratch of boot rubber or a cleaned crack which the next rain storm will wash away like a sandcastle on the beach... Vanity, vanity, all is vanity.
You might ask your bolting friends if they'd agree with that too.
I doubt that Spanish bolters are any more concerned by the long term effects of their activity than those in France are... ecology doesn't seem to be a Mediterranean preoccupation... the coastline is a sad and sorry proof of this! As for their motives, I've already explained what I mean by commercial interests (of which you used to be part IIRC), I know they aren't paid to bolt, but doing a new route and leaving a line of bolts seems to appeal to human vanity more than doing a route a leaving only an ephemeral memory of the experience, a scratch of boot rubber or a cleaned crack which the next rain storm will wash away like a sandcastle on the beach... Vanity, vanity, all is vanity.
You might ask your bolting friends if they'd agree with that too.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Christ you like the sound of your own voice don't you. You see and hear what you want to hear Bruce, we all do it but your twisted version of reality has (with a few lame exceptions) very little to do with how British climbing has evolved.
jk
> Vanity, vanity, all is vanity.
Christ you like the sound of your own voice don't you. You see and hear what you want to hear Bruce, we all do it but your twisted version of reality has (with a few lame exceptions) very little to do with how British climbing has evolved.
jk
In reply to gingerkate:
Love this! I will now be saying this a lot.
> Time off from the unbearably pointed pointyness of life.
Love this! I will now be saying this a lot.
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
why are some'TRAD' climbers obsessed by dishing sport climbing? Sport climbing is scary too!
why are some'TRAD' climbers obsessed by dishing sport climbing? Sport climbing is scary too!
In reply to Bruce Hooker: You related to Ken Wilson? Btw, we're not doomed to die from a plague of bolts. It's not the middle ages anymore.
Andy F
Andy F
In reply to jkarran:
Not my voice, it comes from the bible.... I'm sorry (sorry for you that is)if being serious and disagreeing with you causes offense. You must have lead a very sheltered life.
> Christ you like the sound of your own voice don't you.
Not my voice, it comes from the bible.... I'm sorry (sorry for you that is)if being serious and disagreeing with you causes offense. You must have lead a very sheltered life.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
When it comes to sport climbing, you really do talk a load - of - PI$H. But at least you do it consistently.
When it comes to sport climbing, you really do talk a load - of - PI$H. But at least you do it consistently.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Nice story, but it's a bit of revisionist history. I first started climbing in the 1980's, long before the current proliferation of indoor walls. People like Ron Fawcett were bolt clipping then, nothing to do with learning on indoor walls, just a desire to sport climb for the enjoyment of it.
Of the great number of people who followed, the majority of them chose bolt clipping over traddy stuff. That's their choice, made freely as something they wanted to do. Yes, a few chose to climb in the old fashioned traddy way, good luck to them and in spite of their being in the minority, they do a hell of a lot of whinging and make a hell of a noise, hence there's a disproportionate amount of routes for them to climb.
> I don't mean the actual bolters do it for money but what is behind the whole business is just that - business. This is true in Britain as elsewhere. A lot of people start on indoor walls (commercial often) then when they want to go outdoors many find this problematic
Nice story, but it's a bit of revisionist history. I first started climbing in the 1980's, long before the current proliferation of indoor walls. People like Ron Fawcett were bolt clipping then, nothing to do with learning on indoor walls, just a desire to sport climb for the enjoyment of it.
Of the great number of people who followed, the majority of them chose bolt clipping over traddy stuff. That's their choice, made freely as something they wanted to do. Yes, a few chose to climb in the old fashioned traddy way, good luck to them and in spite of their being in the minority, they do a hell of a lot of whinging and make a hell of a noise, hence there's a disproportionate amount of routes for them to climb.
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
People get into the idea of doing hard moves/sequences in a safe environment and i believe it can become addictive!
It's also clear that it gets you very strong and fit.
The question is just whether you want to do all the working of routes and hanging about?
> So I ask, genuinly out of interest, given the existence of bouldering, what do sport climbers get out of sport that they don't other types of climbing?
People get into the idea of doing hard moves/sequences in a safe environment and i believe it can become addictive!
It's also clear that it gets you very strong and fit.
The question is just whether you want to do all the working of routes and hanging about?
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
I wasn't referring to that specific quote, more the reams of off topic anti bolt drivel though why you're quoting the bible on a thread about sport climbing escapes me.
It's not that you're disagreeing with me that irritates me, its that half the stuff you bang on about so vociferously as fact is simply imagined by you to further fuel your indignation and justify further ranting.
I have indeed lead a very sheltered life and I'm content with that.
jk
I wasn't referring to that specific quote, more the reams of off topic anti bolt drivel though why you're quoting the bible on a thread about sport climbing escapes me.
It's not that you're disagreeing with me that irritates me, its that half the stuff you bang on about so vociferously as fact is simply imagined by you to further fuel your indignation and justify further ranting.
I have indeed lead a very sheltered life and I'm content with that.
jk
In reply to Tiberius:
Are we talking about France? You're not describing even an approximation of the healthy British climbing scene I know.
jk
> Of the great number of people who followed, the majority of them chose bolt clipping over traddy stuff. That's their choice, made freely as something they wanted to do. Yes, a few chose to climb in the old fashioned traddy way, good luck to them and in spite of their being in the minority...
Are we talking about France? You're not describing even an approximation of the healthy British climbing scene I know.
jk
In reply to JonC:
If you don't get the route first go then chances are you'll get it second or third try through naturally getting better acquainted with it rather than "working it to death". Anyway it can feel good to come back to a crag a year or two later and flash something you couldn't do before. As i always say Turn those dogs into logs*
* i did just make that up :p
> (In reply to jkarran)
>
> [...]
>
> Interesting that. I've slowly been getting more into sports climbing and have managed to shift up to 6b/+ on a v good day but I always onsight. I'm not sure I could redpoint a lot harder and I'm not sure I can be bothered with the redpoint faff. I mostly sports climb abroad and not sure I'd want to camp out at one crag to do a respoint project. But maybe I would enjoy it if I tried.
>
> [...]
>
> Interesting that. I've slowly been getting more into sports climbing and have managed to shift up to 6b/+ on a v good day but I always onsight. I'm not sure I could redpoint a lot harder and I'm not sure I can be bothered with the redpoint faff. I mostly sports climb abroad and not sure I'd want to camp out at one crag to do a respoint project. But maybe I would enjoy it if I tried.
If you don't get the route first go then chances are you'll get it second or third try through naturally getting better acquainted with it rather than "working it to death". Anyway it can feel good to come back to a crag a year or two later and flash something you couldn't do before. As i always say Turn those dogs into logs*
* i did just make that up :p
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Bruce i'll humour you. The initial post about steep rock with big holds was made about el chorro i believe, maybe on a route such as Poema de Roca:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=103380
you might be able to fiddle in bits of gear in places but i believe this would do more harm to the rock than good. The best thing to do would be for you to go and climb it yourself on gear....just like this guy has at New River Gorge:
http://www.deadpointmag.com/videos/watch/brent-perkins-climbs-514a-gear
i don't think he intended to make a statement just see if it was possible sans bolts.
Bruce i'll humour you. The initial post about steep rock with big holds was made about el chorro i believe, maybe on a route such as Poema de Roca:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=103380
you might be able to fiddle in bits of gear in places but i believe this would do more harm to the rock than good. The best thing to do would be for you to go and climb it yourself on gear....just like this guy has at New River Gorge:
http://www.deadpointmag.com/videos/watch/brent-perkins-climbs-514a-gear
i don't think he intended to make a statement just see if it was possible sans bolts.
In reply to Bruce Hooker: Bruce, you can disagree with me all you like - especially when you start quoting the Bible to argue agaisnt sports climbing, that made me chuckle.
I am very much open to all aspects of climbing and enjoy everything that climbing has to offer so I am not sure where I am being stubborn - maybe you would care to elaborate (cant wait for you reply on that).
You did however fail to answer my question so I will simplify it for you so that you can maybe understand:
Why sould a route not be bolted ? And who has the right to determine the outcome ?
I am very much open to all aspects of climbing and enjoy everything that climbing has to offer so I am not sure where I am being stubborn - maybe you would care to elaborate (cant wait for you reply on that).
You did however fail to answer my question so I will simplify it for you so that you can maybe understand:
Why sould a route not be bolted ? And who has the right to determine the outcome ?
In reply to Jonathan Emett:
I am glad you like it
My life is going through a rather particularly pointy patch, and it does make me value climbing all the more.
I am glad you like it
My life is going through a rather particularly pointy patch, and it does make me value climbing all the more.
In reply to Lupine Lacuna: sport climbing is ok for training for the real stuff.
In reply to jkarran:
Well no, it isn't... The references to many ukc threads can be confirmed if you really felt like it, the references to bolting on the continent, in France in particular will be confirmed by a simple visit to the country, and have been by other ukc posters who live in France on many occasions. The references to commercial interest in increasing the number of climbers are so obvious they hardly need confirming... just open your eyes. The polish question on limestone is also easily verified by a visit to Les Saussois, or more easily limestone crags in the UK where the result is easy to see too... and so on. Maybe you don't think it matters but the facts are there to see, if you want to.
As for the vanity aspect, why do so many people make such a fuss about who did what new route, grades etc. or why are there so many articles about some new feat, or why do climbers so often die because they didn't turn back when they should have? I haven't invented all these deaths and accidents, and you only have to read the accounts to see that in many cases the desire to "succeed" at all costs despite the obvious risk was a major cause of the tradgedy. Vanity cause more deaths than stone fall or any other objective cause.
> its that half the stuff you bang on about so vociferously as fact is simply imagined
Well no, it isn't... The references to many ukc threads can be confirmed if you really felt like it, the references to bolting on the continent, in France in particular will be confirmed by a simple visit to the country, and have been by other ukc posters who live in France on many occasions. The references to commercial interest in increasing the number of climbers are so obvious they hardly need confirming... just open your eyes. The polish question on limestone is also easily verified by a visit to Les Saussois, or more easily limestone crags in the UK where the result is easy to see too... and so on. Maybe you don't think it matters but the facts are there to see, if you want to.
As for the vanity aspect, why do so many people make such a fuss about who did what new route, grades etc. or why are there so many articles about some new feat, or why do climbers so often die because they didn't turn back when they should have? I haven't invented all these deaths and accidents, and you only have to read the accounts to see that in many cases the desire to "succeed" at all costs despite the obvious risk was a major cause of the tradgedy. Vanity cause more deaths than stone fall or any other objective cause.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Sorry, I'm not quite with you. What threads, justifying which part of you rant? The occasional "Where's my nearest sport climbing, I want to start outdoors. A Beginner, London" type threads? I imagine those really get your knickers in a twist.
I've been. So it has a predominantly sport ethic especially in the valleys, this is hardly a secret nor a bad thing if that's what people are interested in.
This is the one you truck out time and again. You really do need to break this down. 'Commercial interests' are driving British bolting? Where? Who? How? Lets take an example, who's directly benefiting from re-equipping LPT besides mid-high grade sport climbers (those doing the work).
Who'd dispute limestone is prone to polish. Your point is presumably it'd be better rough and unclimbed than polished as a popular route. And while we're on this one, where's the connection between sport and polish, there's plenty of polished traditional crags, Stoney would be a reasonable example you may have frequented before you hung up your pitons.
Is this ^ even on topic... I lost the will to live half way through?
I give up, you win: Bolts == Bad. Fact.
jk
> Well no, it isn't... The references to many ukc threads can be confirmed if you really felt like it
Sorry, I'm not quite with you. What threads, justifying which part of you rant? The occasional "Where's my nearest sport climbing, I want to start outdoors. A Beginner, London" type threads? I imagine those really get your knickers in a twist.
> the references to bolting on the continent, in France in particular will be confirmed by a simple visit to the country, and have been by other ukc posters who live in France on many occasions.
I've been. So it has a predominantly sport ethic especially in the valleys, this is hardly a secret nor a bad thing if that's what people are interested in.
> The references to commercial interest in increasing the number of climbers are so obvious they hardly need confirming... just open your eyes.
This is the one you truck out time and again. You really do need to break this down. 'Commercial interests' are driving British bolting? Where? Who? How? Lets take an example, who's directly benefiting from re-equipping LPT besides mid-high grade sport climbers (those doing the work).
> The polish question on limestone is also easily verified by a visit to Les Saussois, or more easily limestone crags in the UK where the result is easy to see too... and so on. Maybe you don't think it matters but the facts are there to see, if you want to.
Who'd dispute limestone is prone to polish. Your point is presumably it'd be better rough and unclimbed than polished as a popular route. And while we're on this one, where's the connection between sport and polish, there's plenty of polished traditional crags, Stoney would be a reasonable example you may have frequented before you hung up your pitons.
> As for the vanity aspect, why do so many people make such a fuss about who did what new route, grades etc. or why are there so many articles about some new feat, or why do climbers so often die because they didn't turn back when they should have? I haven't invented all these deaths and accidents, and you only have to read the accounts to see that in many cases the desire to "succeed" at all costs despite the obvious risk was a major cause of the tradgedy. Vanity cause more deaths than stone fall or any other objective cause.
Is this ^ even on topic... I lost the will to live half way through?
I give up, you win: Bolts == Bad. Fact.
jk
In reply to jkarran:
No, but the many threads illustrate that a lot of people start off on indoor walls nowadays and find going on to lead placing their own gear outdoors is a big step and so turn towards bolted climbing... which is what I said.
RE. commercial interests, I've already replied in a long post to Toby. I find it difficult to believe that you, Sam and Toby all thought I meant the bolters did it for cash, but I'll take your word for it... especially for you as you say you've lead a sheltered life so may not be familiar with indirect cause and effect.
As for polish, of course all traffic causes polish but the huge increase in traffic when cliffs are bolted makes the results inevitable and faster... especially as it enables people to yoyo and work routes. Basically bolts turn a crag into an outdoor climbing wall. You may not see any problem with this, of course.
Vanity was a reply to someone else.
Finally,
To cut it short, yes, that's about what I think. Is that alright with you, your highness?
I haven't hung up my pegs yet but I don't get the chance to go off to the mountains as often as I would wish, I have to make do with bouldering (no bolts allowed at Fontainebleau).
> ... I imagine those really get your knickers in a twist.
No, but the many threads illustrate that a lot of people start off on indoor walls nowadays and find going on to lead placing their own gear outdoors is a big step and so turn towards bolted climbing... which is what I said.
RE. commercial interests, I've already replied in a long post to Toby. I find it difficult to believe that you, Sam and Toby all thought I meant the bolters did it for cash, but I'll take your word for it... especially for you as you say you've lead a sheltered life so may not be familiar with indirect cause and effect.
As for polish, of course all traffic causes polish but the huge increase in traffic when cliffs are bolted makes the results inevitable and faster... especially as it enables people to yoyo and work routes. Basically bolts turn a crag into an outdoor climbing wall. You may not see any problem with this, of course.
Vanity was a reply to someone else.
Finally,
> Bolts == Bad. Fact.
To cut it short, yes, that's about what I think. Is that alright with you, your highness?
I haven't hung up my pegs yet but I don't get the chance to go off to the mountains as often as I would wish, I have to make do with bouldering (no bolts allowed at Fontainebleau).
In reply to punter:
No one person has the right, it's based on consensus in Britain apparently. I would say no to any bolting as I can see nothing wrong in leaving bits of rock unclimbed, either until future generations come along who can do it cleanly, or for ever... why not give the mountain best from time to time? But that's just my opinion. There have been many threads on ukc about the process of decision making in Britain, there is one running now:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=432507
> You did however fail to answer my question so I will simplify it for you so that you can maybe understand:
> Why sould a route not be bolted ? And who has the right to determine the outcome ?
No one person has the right, it's based on consensus in Britain apparently. I would say no to any bolting as I can see nothing wrong in leaving bits of rock unclimbed, either until future generations come along who can do it cleanly, or for ever... why not give the mountain best from time to time? But that's just my opinion. There have been many threads on ukc about the process of decision making in Britain, there is one running now:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=432507
In reply to NorthernRock:
trad climbers on site sport climbs because they're not pushing themselves hard enough. In trad you have the mentality that you're allowed to fall less, and only at certain times. With there is a comitement when taking on a climb, with sport there isn't, if you can't do it you lower off a bolt. So basically people try stuff which is at there limit and beyond and so regular sport climbers don't always onsite. trad climbers treat it as an extension of trad and so err on the safe side.
trad climbers on site sport climbs because they're not pushing themselves hard enough. In trad you have the mentality that you're allowed to fall less, and only at certain times. With there is a comitement when taking on a climb, with sport there isn't, if you can't do it you lower off a bolt. So basically people try stuff which is at there limit and beyond and so regular sport climbers don't always onsite. trad climbers treat it as an extension of trad and so err on the safe side.
In reply to tom vellacott:
No I don't; I just prefer onsighting which does push myself just not to a physical max.
> (In reply to NorthernRock)
>
> trad climbers on site sport climbs because they're not pushing themselves hard enough. In trad you have the mentality that you're allowed to fall less, and only at certain times. With there is a comitement when taking on a climb, with sport there isn't, if you can't do it you lower off a bolt. So basically people try stuff which is at there limit and beyond and so regular sport climbers don't always onsite. trad climbers treat it as an extension of trad and so err on the safe side.
>
> trad climbers on site sport climbs because they're not pushing themselves hard enough. In trad you have the mentality that you're allowed to fall less, and only at certain times. With there is a comitement when taking on a climb, with sport there isn't, if you can't do it you lower off a bolt. So basically people try stuff which is at there limit and beyond and so regular sport climbers don't always onsite. trad climbers treat it as an extension of trad and so err on the safe side.
No I don't; I just prefer onsighting which does push myself just not to a physical max.
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Elsewhere on the site
Fri Night Vid Le Toit de Ben - Quebec 1958
This week's Friday Night Video whisks us back to Val-David, Quebec, in the Autumn of 1958. Two daring young climbers embark on the ascent of a route that seemed unattainable, resembling a roof suspended in the air, defying all the conventions of the time....
3 May
Loading Notifications...