UKC

Where ever the snow falls within the UK, that part of the country grinds to a halt.

Do we have a special kind of snow that our European counterparts or even our Canadian cousins could not cope with?

What can or must we do, as a nation, to combat the debilitating effects of snow?

In reply to The Lemming: Have you ever been in/near Paris when it snows ? at least as bad as southern England.

And much of Scotland seems to cope

In reply to The Lemming: nothing chill. If we got it more often we would get used to it.

I am not going to the extpense of preparing for the possibility of 3 days a year.

The Daily Express can have headlines like "Britain Grinds to a Halt" but Britain didnt.

In reply to The Lemming: If we had the amount of snow Canada has we might go further towards mitigating it. As we don't, it's not worth it.

In reply to The Lemming: I walked out of my flat this morning to find my car had slid all by it's self half way into the road.... handbrake was on and I'd left it in reverse! Scary!

we're just not used to snow.

In reply to The Lemming:

Our snow is certainly a special type of snow. I was the only person in my office to make it in today, and when I arrived none of the IT systems were working!

Now that really *is* some clever snow!

In reply to The Lemming: Stop the press from over-reacting as usual.

In reply to Zygoticgema: so who is in Barbados?

In reply to The Lemming:

Part of Denmark is more or less locked down due to snow. Army APCs are on standby in more places to be used where ambulances etc cant drive.

Thousands of car crashes last week, its not just a British thing.

Its just a very British thing to moan about everything that happens in this country, and also very British to think that everywhere else is always better.

In reply to Mikkel: I used to love understatement. It was a very British thing but sadly rare now.

In reply to The Lemming: Chaos ensues, my son sent home early from school (he has special needs)on the school bus without myself or my wife being informed. Bus driver calls me at work asking where I was.

All because the school closed early....and why... because of the snow!

Why do we panick over a bit of white stuff.

In reply to Fawksey:

I was last week....may I go back please?

In reply to The Lemming:
No, we just like to think we're special. Apparently, even Geneva airport has been closed due to the snow:
http://www.gva.ch/en/

In reply to Fawksey:

I did my part for integration into the UK society this morning by being in a car that got wrecked due to the snowy roads. Guess to complete it i should have made a statement at the time saying "this would never have happened in Denmark"

In reply to Mikkel: did you tell the driver "you suck moose"?

In reply to Fawksey: oh to be a Russian trucker..
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7e3_1291161254

In reply to Fawksey:

Driver is Dutch and not his fault so no i didnt, someone coming towards us down slight incline leading into a 90 degree turn slid over in our lane and hit us.

In reply to The Lemming:

Bizzare isn't it - Just been watching people rant and rave on the news - god help me if I ever find myself in a job where the world will end if I suddenly and unexpectedly have to take 2 days off.

E

In reply to The Lemming: I have to say Jeremy me ol mate Ive not met an ambulance techician on ukc yet thats made a favorable impression.

In reply to drunken monkey:

+1

Why is everything "treacherous", all of a sudden! They really do seem to be running out of superlatives.

In reply to The Lemming:

Canadians (or at least Calgary) make just as much of a mess as the UK despite it happening several times a year. Last week we had light snow and the city transit failed. It was -30C and people were left stranded....

http://www.calgaryherald.com/Transit+person+want+money+back/3887239/story.h...


http://www.calgaryherald.com/Relief+sight+from+Calgary+ongoing+cold+snow+to...

In reply to LastBoyScout: Radio 2 just called it Arctic conditions.

In reply to The Lemming:

I think it has a lot to do with attitude. We're basically lazy and any excuse not to something, like go to work, and off we go. We also tend to over react to situations through fear.

In Sheffield the snow has been pretty heavy today. It was interesting to go into town. Very few people driving and no one cycling at all. The main roads were all clear while smaller roads had a bit of snow on them but far from being undrivable/uncyclable. The only road I couldn't get up (on a bike) was my own road which is a very steep, quiet road that you can only get up with 4WD.

Despite the generally favourable road conditions the entire bus service has been now been cancelled.



Someone on a radio programme made a good point. Our right wing policies mean we have very little sense of community compared to other nations. As Thatcher used to declare there's no such thing as society, we're all just individuals. I suspect this has something to do with the entire cancellation of the bus service here. The bus company has no sense of responsibility to the community, only to making profits, so they can't be bothered to try to run a partial service.

In reply to Fawksey:

I think that was a complement?

In reply to The Lemming:

The density of traffic must also be a big contribuitng factor. Not as big a factor as the media going on and on mind 24hrs news needs must.

In reply to The Lemming:

No, I think it may have been a compliment.

In reply to stp:

Do you speak from experience?

In reply to stp:
Good point. I hope people are saying hello to elderly neighbours and seeing if they should get some shopping or whatever.

In reply to Mark Sweatmasn:



That was pure genius, and funny to read.

Puts our couple of inches of snow and milder temperatures to shame.

In reply to The Lemming:

Some current Swedish news:

http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/trafikanter-uppmanas-stanna-hemma-1.121975...
Severe weather warning for Southern Sweden - drivers advised to stay at home due to snow showers and strong(ish) winds


http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/poliser-pa-hal-is-i-goteborg-1.1219546
Only half the police cars in Gothenburg had winter tyres on for the arrival of winter weather in mid November - police demand better planning


http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/manga-fast-pa-tag-medan-andra-hade-det-bra...
People stuck on train in freezing weather due to damaged power line




Just sayin', likes...

In reply to The Lemming: was watching the news on TF1 today and the French roads were chaos with cars sliding all over. saw an accident in lausanne this evening and did most of the journey home at 20kph.

the papers just like to pretend it is just the uk.

having said that, once you get out of the valleys and over the cols here, the drivers all seem to cope quite happily despite the snowy surface....

In reply to skog:
Some spots have 50-80cm so far, which is not bad compared to UK.

That's because it's not compulsary until 1 Dec and they are townies or city raggers who can't afford winter tyres for big yank cars.

Lack of recent investment and X2000 needing replacing?

In reply to Tobias at Home:

No problem here - everyone just stays at home.

E

In reply to The Lemming: The biggest problem we have in this country that we have with snow is the people on the road who don't have a clue how to drive in it
It took me over 2 hours to drive 15 miles tonight due to the amount of cars with wheels spinning out.
Even the 4x4 directly in front of me was spinning its wheels and sliding sideways yet my van on half bald tyres that is front wheel drive and has 1200kg in the back was pulling away fine with a bit of care.

In reply to Fawksey:

Now, now - we'll have none of that sensible and logical thinking getting in the way of a good thread.
We don't need your sort around here, move along.

Go on - on your way!

Si

In reply to SCC: Are you well Si?

In reply to summo:
Yup.

So, basically, disruption due to fairly bad wintry weather, cities aren't as well prepared for unexpected wintry weather as rural areas, and public transport could do with more investment. And people moaning about it.

How very British. Oh, wait...

In reply to The Lemming:

Doug's right about France, whenever it snow in Paris there's as much panic as London. On the other hand in mountain regions they are used to it and cope, a bit like in parts of Britain

As in the song... "It's the same the 'ole world over...."

In reply to skog:

I'm not sure more money should be spent; given the rarity of snow fall in temperate regions it's probably more cost effective to put up with a bit of hassle occasionally rather than to force councils to spend a fortune on snow ploughs and so on that would just be sitting there rusting most of the year... Stay in bed instead.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
I don't disagree.
Councils or their equivalent have to balance potential disruption against potential wasting of money on equipment that may not be used. The current circumstances in Britain are extremely unusual, and the avoidable disruption from it may cost less than having the means to deal with it sitting around doing nothing most years.
Sweden are better prepared for it, of course, as they can guarantee this sort of weather every winter; it just came a bit early this year.

In reply to Dax H:
I agree.
I have been driving around in it all day with no problem, even on roads white with a few days of snow.
I have witnessed folk crawling along at 10 mph on roads recently gritted and one chap slide into a parked car due to trying to drive as if the snow was just some sparkly illusion that wasn't really there.
Take care driving but it isn't the end of the world.
So my tips would be:
On the flat keep a steady pace, don't brake sharply, don't rev.
On hills avoid, if you can't avoid....
going down go sloooooww, pump brakes gently, use hand brakes, use gears (that got me down the Kirkstone pass in one piece)
going up second or third gear steady pace, definitely don't rev,
bends going up hill in snow. Forget it. But if you mean to try brake as little as is safe. Hill starts in snow are almost pointless.
Lastly rear wheel drive, turn into a slide. front wheel drive steer where you mean to go.
Watch out for other road users and think ahead.
Be safe.

In reply to Bruce Hooker: better to spend less on salting roads and make winter tyres compulsary. Cheaper for councils, create work for garages and tyre manufacturers. Cars won't rot as quick either.

In reply to summo:

A very expensive option and hardly justified for most Western Europe apart from mountain areas and the North.

In reply to summo:

Totally agree however judging by the number of perfectly good cars that were crushed under the utterly stupid scrappage scheme I don't think anyone really gives two hoots whether cars rot out any quicker in fact they seem to take great delight and pride in the sheer tonnage of salt they can lay down

In reply to skog: Better to have and not need rather than the reverse surely?

This quote from The Guardian today from a a magazine editor who you'd think might have better analytical skills nicely sums up the sloppy thinking on this:

"The fact is that we just don't get enough of this really bad weather to justify chucking big bucks at the problem. We can't justify having massive amounts of extremely expensive equipment lying around for most of the time. That's been the story on the railways, and on the roads with the gritting, and at airports. It's the same story every year."

In reply to Nigel R: ok so you want someone to manufacturer winter tyres that I work several days to be able to afford so that they can sit in my shed until the tyre walls crack long before the tread wears out and then put them into a landfill or recycle into granules for building more roads?

In reply to Nigel R:

In an ideal world, sure. But the councils are a wee bit short of cash just now! What should we lose so we can spend extra money on gritters, ploughs and salt? Some sports centres, or council houses, or schools? By planning for a severe winter next year, do we sacrifice the flood prevention work that would also be good to have?

There's a balance to be struck; I don't honestly know whether it's worth investing more in preparing for this sort of circumstance. How many decades is it since we've had a November like this?

In reply to The Lemming: just been to see the Oysterband. Their support act (miles Hunt) was coming from Shropshire to Nottm and failed to appear. The Oysters bassist (chopper) also came from home this morning. He lives in Sweden. -20 "my nose hairs froze waiting for the bus" . he got 2 service buses 80m or so to the airport, flew to Britain where their tour bus picked him up and was on stage for 8.00pm.

In reply to The Lemming:

You've only got to have been skiing a few times to realise that snow causes problems wherever it falls.
Obviously a ski resort and surrounding areas don't "grind to a halt" the nature of their existence is...they dont!

However, snow prevents day to day life anywhere it falls.
I've been stuck at Innsbruck for two days because of snow before.

In reply to Fawksey:

Not at all, just stay off the roads with your summer tyres until the snow has melted would you? Oh? You want to get to work in the snow? Get some winter tyres then. Simples

In reply to The Lemming:

where i live you are checked when leaving freeways (at toll gates) to make sure you have studless or chains when entering snowy areas. all snow affected areas have 24hr clearing teams, some places have (debatably good) water systems to melt snow off roads. some places have buses shuttling people from carparks.

people that live where it snows prepare for it and factor it in because its not an abnormality. mind you, there can be a LOT of the stuff - 6m dumps have happened, we dug down to our front doors.

life does go on, but extra time etc is factored in. lots of accidents are from inexperienced people who think they can drive in it actually cant. even good drivers still need snow tires - the way it goes.

the baseline is govt services: snow clearing machines operating whenever needed, preparation before it happens, enforcing safety regulations. then its up to community integrity to do their bit.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Compared to average cost of a car, tax, servicing and insurance. Adding in the cost of steel rims and some winter tyres is a very minor percentage. They won't rot in your shed, they should be on your car for at least 4 months of the year.

In return they would be less accidents (probably less injuries), less gritting, less congestion... Less accidents could potentially mean lower insurance - it is the driver who doesn't crash that will be helping to fund the all numpties crashing in the past week.

Seems like a win on all sides to me.

In reply to summo: We could just organise our lives so that we drive a lot less. Looking at the traffic levels, theres a significant number of people who live in town x and work in town y, and vice versa. The number of journeys that my little spot generates in commuting mileage is just absurd.

It's going to be on the news a lot more now London has had some. This morning it was all they talked about.

Another thing. Why does snow make people drive like tw@s? The amount of people not using indicators or driving on full beam / not giving way at junctions is unbelievable. Can't help thinking that they want to have an accident.

In reply to skog:
but with grit at a reported £25/ton, you could pass on this cost to the user by making everyone get their own winter tyres, and save a load of money for these other expenses !

In reply to stp:
>>

yes those right wing irresponsible teachers, who can't be bothered to go the extra mile for the children...

In reply to woolsack:

Effectively this.

'Winter Tyres' does not mean 'Snow Tyres'. They will be better in cold, damp, greasy conditions. So just stick them on for four months of the year. All the time they are on, you're not wearing your summer tyres out, so the actual tyre cost isn't really any greater. The only real cost is for a spare set of steel rims, which is fairly trivial in comparison to the cost of the car.

If it's essential that you are able to get to work whatever the weather, then it should be a no-brainer. Yet people whinge about how they can't spend a few hundred quid on a spare set of wheels which will sit in their garage for eight months of the year, but the councils should spend millions on snowploughs which would sit in a yard for eleven months of the year.

Take some responsibility, or accept that you might have to stay at home.

Anyway, I don't know what everyone's complaining about. I've not bothered putting winter tyres on our cars because I'm still commuting on the motorbike.

In reply to The Lemming: Disaster - what disaster? Everyone seems to be coping in Manchester after 2" of snow. Ok - so the traffic is a bit worse than usual, but that is also the case on match nights. The media have turned this in to a disaster, not the people experiencing it. You will always find someone prepared to grumble.

In reply to The Lemming:

According to R4 no trains in or out of Berlin today and no proper information available. Local headlines "Germany in snow chaos".
Sweden in virtual lockdown.

We had three inches of snow in Florida one year. Now that's the definition of chaos!

The state did not own one snow plough, nor had it stock piled one ounce of grit. Couple that with locals who are freaked out by the conditions and respond by flooring 'the gas' in their V8 powered automatic cars and it was almost surreal in the magnitude of the carnage.

In reply to wildchild:


My village is under 2 to 3 feet of snow. The council haven't treated the roads at all since the snow started on Sunday. Nobody can drive anywhere; we've tried to keep the road open by hand with shovels but the snow has been falling too fast and there aren't enough of us.

Our shops have no bread, no milk, no fresh veg and no basics like pasta and they're rationing essentials to one per customer. My six month old daughter is running out of milk and nappies, so today I'm facing a five mile walk in knee deep snow to get to the nearest shop which has some food so I can get some basics and some flour so I can bake bread for my family, my 75 year old next door neighbour and the rest of us.

Do I live in a remote highland village? No, I live two miles outside the centre of Edinburgh.

So it's really great that you're okay and dealing with this so stoically. But perhaps you should think a little before you sneer at the rest of us.

In reply to niggle: Oh don't forget, if you buy more than 2 days worth of stuff because you don't want to do the trip in foot again then you will see the next headline news being "big freeze starts panic buying!"

Hope you get yourselves sorted soon and it isn't too much of a trudge to get supplies.

In reply to The Lemming: the sort of people who moan at lack of snowploughing / gritting are generally those who moan at having to pay extra to fund it

In reply to niggle:
>

Would you not be better walking two miles into the centre rather than 5 miles in another direction ? Or are you saying the shops in Edinburgh city centre are out of supplies ?

In reply to Fawksey:

youtube.com/watch?v=mbEenHXmmy4&

In reply to lummox:


The nearest shop I can walk to is two and a half miles away. I won't walk into the centre of Edinburgh because the nearest supermarket is not on the nearest edge of the city, it'd add another few miles at least to my journey.

In reply to niggle: You'll find the main roads are now pretty much OK, some even have buses on.

In reply to niggle:

An otherwise entirely serious post, with a single tongue-in-cheek comment on the end, and which bit do you bother reading?

In reply to MG:


Thanks! But buses through the village aren't running and we have no way to get cars to the main road. We've tried towing them with Land Rovers but it's not working so far.

I've been in touch with the council and they're now dealing with it as an emergency since I've pointed out that emergency vehicles won't be able to reach us either.

If anyone has any brilliant ideas they'll be gladly accepted (the best idea we have right now is to clear a big space in some roadworks near the main road and tow all the cars we can get out there with my neighbour's landy).

In reply to niggle: Aw Niggle. You always give the impression of someone who can look after themselves, that is always right when everyone else is wrong etc. Surely you can sort yourself out here rather than moaning? Not like you at all!

Has someone hijacked your profile?

In reply to niggle:


If you don't have ski touring equipment, buy some last week. Then ski to where you want to go. I skied 3.5 miles to work the other day, only a few unhelpful people had shovelled the pavement

In reply to niggle:

My mum drove from Essex to Edinburgh with few problems the night before last. I always had you Scots down as resilient types.

Five miles in knee deep snow? Sounds utterly desperate, not the sort of thing a climber should ever contemplate...

In reply to zzz:


I can - but I'm not just looking after myself, I'm looking after my family and my neighbours too. It's not weakness to know when you need help.

In reply to MG:


Great idea, but I left my wallet in next week's trousers.

In reply to MHutch:


Hee hee!

Well, if it has to be done... but clearing roads and helping out's eating into my work day a lot now.

In reply to The Lemming: got my nepals on an fukin lovin it

In reply to The Lemming:

You're right, it's ridiculous. I drove a colleague home last night - normally just 15 minutes from work, but it took us over an hour, people skidding and sliding all around the place, absolute traffic chaos. I realised I was never going to do the next 40 miles to get home, so I spent the night there and came home this morning.

Loads of local schools closed, motorways closed, trains not running, airports running loads of delays, people not getting to work etc. Not enough gritters or ploughs, lots of main roads difficult, and minor roads impassable. It's a disgrace.

But then, I live in Bavaria, and we've had less snow than many parts of Britain. Live is harder in the snow - it's not just a British problem. Oh, and for the record, I think Britain actually has WORSE conditions than we do here - the air is normally more humid, and there's more of a freeze-thaw cycle than we get here, which means the roads get icy. When we have "British conditions" here, we get loads of ice.

Tim

In reply to niggle: One Xmas/New year we couldnt get a flight to Alicante, so we took one to Madrid and drove. The main roads East were all snow covered and only cars with chains were being allowed through. There were cars at the side of the toad desperately fixing chains, others were settling down to spend the night in their cars.
Obviously being in a hire car we didn't have chains, so at the road block we pleaded to be allowed to go on, once the Guardia realised we were English they let us pass through on the grounds that we 'Should be used to driving on snow'.
The journey was a nightmare, very slow going and it took us 9 hours, snow not clearing until about 20 miles from the coast, but we never actually had to stop except for the occaisional spaniard blocking the road which the police gradually got all the moving cars around.
Well driven Geraldine!

In reply to Green Porridge:

On the radio this morning - it's chaos in Germany and there is a lockdown in Sweden due to severe snow.

Not really a British disaster, it's just what happens.

In reply to MG:

Know the feeling, yesterday I went off for a ski around the fields and hills, came back and I couldn't ski to my door, some unthoughtful souls had clear sections in front of their houses!

In reply to The Lemming:

My daughter lives in Germany and they're closing airports faster than us at the moment. Luckily its closing them with her in this country and not over there.

Can all with tails of woe about German travel please shut up!

This evening I will be travelling on 3 different trains over 3 different countries (including Germany) with a car journey at the end.

It is already snowing here and doesn't look like it is about to stop any time soon.

I do not want my chances of getting home jinxed by people on UKC :-P

In reply to Bob kate bob:

Where are you actually going to in Germany? I might be able to provide some useful information....

Good luck!

Tim

In reply to Green Porridge: I am heading south and west to Koln and then on the Thalys to Paris.

The guys here are mentioning different German areas, but I must admit my German geography is very bad.

I ran to work as cycling would have been a bit mad. People here were amazed. Why? Perhaps i ought to compliment them on driving in........


Bit of snow here and the South panics. Nothing new then

In reply to The Lemming:

How'd you get on, niggle?

I made it to the office in Livingston today, there really is a lot of snow here, and while it is ok where it has been cleared, it is very hard to walk through where it has not.

My boyfriend is from Austria and I've had to listen to lots of rants about how cr*p the British are with snow. He went ski-ing along the canal towpath on Sunday!

Well, last night I made the decision not to go to work today or tomorrow. The main roads are indeed clear, but for most of the trip home from work last night I was driving on black ice and frozen over slush; we did a fair bit of "dancing" at various times as the car settled into ruts and crossed over junctions. Most fun. Not. It simply isn't worth the hassle and likelihood of other cars duffing up mine. I am reasonably happy to drive in those conditions, but not in rush hour, thanks. I dug the car back in to the village (no-where else to leave it, frankly- everyone else is trying to park on the main roads) and that's where it will stay until Friday night. That's when I'll dig it out and try to get to choir practice- but I'm not going to try too hard. It just isn't that important, in the end.

Sx

In reply to Bob kate bob:

Ok, that's well away from me, but I reckon you'll be fine. I've just been out skiing by our local railway line, and the ICE trains there seemed to be running.

Tim

In reply to toe_cutter:


cant say this part of the South panics.
Only minor entertainment was in a pub carpark, on a slope, which hadnt any grit and hence got mildly interesting for a few seconds.
Other than that everything is normal.

In reply to niggle:


Don't forget your map and compass

In reply to woolsack:

Oh you're so clever!

Except apparently you're too thick to realise the possibility that I'm not walking into Edinburgh to get food, I'm walking the other way.

Durrrrrr.

In reply to niggle:

Why do you fear walking to the centre of Edinburgh to buy food?

In reply to Kipper:

He's maybe not a fan of penne al'arribiata..

In reply to The Lemming:

Well I'm more convinced now than ever that part of the problem is the pervasive lack of community spirit in this country.

I managed to finally procure a snow shovel today and promptly cleared the pavement down to the bottom of the road. This was about 30 - 40 yard stretch which took about 30 mins. Clearing snow with a proper snow shovel is really pretty easy. No one else had cleared anything though it was obvious some people had got hold of shovels and used them to clear the paths inside their gardens but no more.

Now WTF is the point of having a clear path from your front door to the street but then leave the street completely blocked? I'm pretty sure if everyone fit enough did about 15 mins shovelling we'd have very little problems in towns and cities.

Unfortunately many people just cannot think in terms of community and can only think about what benefits them directly. And that, I think, is part of the reason the country is in such a mess.

In reply to niggle:
my sympathies re being stuck - have you tried the nearby farmers - if they have a JCB or a plough on the front of a tractor they would be able to dig you all out. We have just done this for our road (up a hill and unadopted) - you just have to get everyone to chip in (remind them that even if they have a 4X4 the online shopping will not arrive if the road is blocked to normal cars!).

Good luck

In reply to MissAssister:


"I could kill you with this tray!"

In reply to The Lemming: yup, lack of community spirit here too. Cars parked on the main road, two foot from the kerb, meaning it's down to a single lane.

However, the bus service has been running throughout, although not to the very top of the village (Balerno, outside Edinburgh). The buses have been packed, although it's not bothering me as I'm cycling every day.

In reply to stp:

Surely you haven't paid a rapacious capitalist shopkeeper £11.99? You've become part of the poundshop-military-industrial hegemony!

Up here the local farmer dragged any car that couln't get up the road out with his tractor until we dug out the grit bin. The following day a self employed bloke down the road got a trailer load of grit and dumped a pile outside every house on the lane, (no charge), so we're all sorted up here.

In reply to Ridge:

Got one for £8.99 and after the shopkeeper told me his epic story to get the shovels, and then we he got there was only allowed to take 25, I actually ended up feeling quite sorry for the guy.


Yeah I sure there's more of a community spirit in, erm, smaller communities. I guess cities are not really communities at all and maybe that's the problem?

In reply to The Lemming: Well Lemming it looks like we finally have some snow, although it looks pathetic compared to the rest of the country.

In reply to TobyA:


Fair cop Mr Stevens

In reply to The Lemming:

Buy snow tyres.

In reply to Mick's Daughter: I'm surprised tha tyre fitting firms haven't latched on to this and launched a massive ad campaign. Probably because we don't have supplies available in the UK but next Oct or Nov they just need to say " Remember last winter's misery." Even if we goy no snow they would still make a fortune I would have thought.

In reply to Mick's Daughter: report on the radio today saying insurance companies not covering people who "modify" thier cars buy putting winter tyres on.

In reply to AlasdairM: Down to a single lane? You mean while sat in a warm comfy seat in your air condiotioned vehicle listening to the radio you might have to wait a few moments to give way to something coming the other way?

In reply to Fawksey:

I heard that one too. Bloody stupid really. However I did phone my insurance company to check before I got mine. Amazing they are too. Winter tyres are awesome

In reply to Graham T: I cant afford normal tyres on my bike never mind another set.