UKC

hi, struggling to find a winter partner at the minute so was thinking of soloing some easy stuff in north wales to get some basic experience. i read on another topic that grade 1 stuff can be dangerous because of the avalanche risk so would i be better going straight onto grade 2?? i will have a pair of curved axes if that matters. oh i also have a little winter walking experience. cheers

In reply to al123:

It really doesn't work like that; you might be on grade I ground above the below the main climbing on II or VI route. Really the grade of a climb and the avalanche risk aren't really related to each other.

So you might be able to find a grade I or II route with no (or lots of) avalanche risk. You really need to try and work out avalanche risks a bit more!

Have fun though whatever you do. Pick a ridge and you'll be minimising the risk.

In reply to TobyA: oh right ok. i realised the grade and the risk of avalanches arnt related but i read that the angle of grade 1 gulleys have a risk of avalanches?? cheers

In reply to al123: Like you I'm trying to build up my experience and as trips to wales are short notice usually, being solo is the norm. I did the Daear Ddu Ridge on Moel Siabod on Monday, being a ridge there's minimal avalanche risk and I had a play on the slope just before the second lake as well. The gulleys around the lake were just powder and not in nick at all but the ridge itself was fine for an easy day out. Didn't use or feel the need for crampons but it still felt a fine winter outing.
I only have one axe but I'm planning on Banana Gully when everything consolidates.
I did a winter skills which include avalanche awareness a while back but never realised back then just how important the subject was. This big powder dump and being in the hills this last weekend to experience it have made me keenly aware of it... a bit of wind slab and more snow, it could all go wrong quite quickly.
Hope you have a good winter.

In reply to al123:

Daear Ddu is a good start, I wouldnt say it was quite grade I but some nice rocky bits on it. The Gribin Ridge (Glyderau) a much nicer one, both are Grade I and the tricky bits escapable with options of easier pathways (Gribin actiually gets Grade II in the old guide but it isnt.) Seniors Ridge is a good route, you can pick out interesting bits on rock or make the whole thing a walk by sticking to the path. Col Gully (Glyder Fach) and Easy Gully (Cwm Cneifion) are low in the grade snow gullies which would be a good prelude to some thing steeper like Banana Gully (Y Garn) or Broad Gully (Cwm Lloer/Pen yr Ole Wen.) Theres a lot of deep powder in Snowdonia at the moment, which would make snow gullies very difficult and arduous.

In reply to al123:

I have only done winter grade I and II's. The grading confuses me. For example, Tryfan North ridge gets a grade II yet Crib Goch gets a grade II. I guess that the hardest "moves" on Tryfan N ridge if taken direct are harder, yet Crib Goch in full winter conditions has felt like a full mountain adventure, we took everything direct, it is committing. I am a relative novice, but the grading system doesn't seem to take into account the remoteness or committing mountaineering adventure of climbs. I am sure that an ice fall by the road is technically very difficult, yet so long as you are strong, understand the protection system and don't fall the risk is relatively low. Being on a long mountain traverse in winter to me deserves more respect than the grading system gives it.

Apologies if I have offended anyone, but as a newcomer this is my opinion.

In reply to bowls:

It was meant to read "Crib Goch only gets a grade I"

In reply to bowls: the mixed grades eg IV, 3 are to reflect the difference between the overall feel of the route eg remoteness/exposure/sustained or not ( this is the roman numeral grade) and the technical moves on the route ( the numbers) ie a IV, 3 would be technical easier than a IV, 4 or IV, 5 but both equally serious. whereas a III, 4 would have similar technical moves but not so serious. Hope this makes sense, look up SMC gudie books which cover this explanation in more detail.

remember that grades are subject to massive change wiht the conditions , which vary much more than rock climbs in summer. Some routes become harder or easier than the normal ( which the grade is based on) with differences in snow/ice build up etc.

re Tryfan - it is easy to take a line more like grade I, but if all the difficulties are taken direct it gets grade II

Grib Goch I believe gets a II when the complete snowdon horseshoe is down ( ie reflecting the complete mountain traverse you talk about)

In reply to bowls:

i.e. if you are better. Hence it gets a harder grade as you need to be a better climber to do it.

In reply to Neil Anderson:

Neil,

Thanks for your reply, I understand how the rock climbing system works, but it is something after purchasing the cicerone climbing Welsh Winter climbing guide I am frustrated with. There seems to be a lot less emphasis on "big mountaineering routes" and more emphasis on short routes with ease of accessibility, which to me reduces the adventure element. By the same logic classic ice climbs such as Aber Falls, Steall Falls and even some of the Devils Kitchen climbs should have a high technical grade, yet a low grade for the feel of a route, since they are in a relatively controlled environment. For example why are not climbs in Aber/Steall falls graded as I/II and 5. Maybe it is a reflection on the lack of severe winter routes you get in the Cairngorm/Creag Meagaidh area which are both technical and committing.

Again, this is a question from a winter novice who doesn't necessarily understand the thrill of climbing something right next to a main road just because it has a higher grade, yet required no afterthought of navigation and general mountaineering skills.

In reply to bowls: You don't seem to understand how winter grades work. Where the route is doesn't make any difference. A VI,6 is VI,6 whether it is 20 minutes from a road, or on the highest part of Ben Nevis, just as an E2 5c is E2 5c at Stanage or on Foinaven.

In reply to Neil Anderson:

No - equally hard in over all feeling for the climber, but not equally 'serious' by any means. IV,3 will be much much more serious than a IV,5, but the climbing will also be considerably easier on the latter.

In reply to TobyA:

Technical 5 easier than 3 ??

In reply to indalo:

That is my point. Everest by the standard route up the Lhotse Face to the South Col would probably only get a winter grade of II because the overall feel and hardest technical moves are pretty easy. Get judging by the amount of people who die on it then I would say it was a pretty serious undertaking.

The grading seems to take no account of the holistic picture. For example a talented climber could tackle and complete a VI without having any basic mountaineering skills such as navigation etc, yet the same climber could become completely unstuck on more remote terrain on a I and be in a very serious situation. I guess maybe in my view there needs to be a sub-grade indicating the committing nature of climb and the difficulty of retreat etc.

In reply to bowls:

Not familiar with Aber Falls, but Steall doesn't get tech 5 because it's nowhere near tech 5 (or even 4 for that matter). And it doesn't get overall I/II because it's not quite that easy.


Afraid you've lost me there!

In reply to petestack:

They were stick in the air examples. I have no idea what grade they actually are. My point was they are pretty much roadside, certainly Steal is.

The technical grade reflects that they are difficult, but surely the other grade should be low since they are in easy accessible situations and are not that serious. By definition of tackling a high technical climb you are accepting it will be exposed, steep and serious in terms of a fall and protection. I would have thought the other grade would relate more to location/relative situation/seriousness committing to a climb. For example the Aonach Eagach or Liathach are more serious undertakings due to their inescapablilty and the difficulties encountered in strong winds/driving snow. So in my mind their seriousness grade should be higher than any roadside icefall no matter how technically difficult that roadside icefall should be.

In reply to bowls:

the roman numeral grade is not a seriousness grade

In reply to bowls:

It's low-level, but by no means roadside.


There's no separate tech grade for Steall because it's a lower-grade route and not particularly difficult.


As already explained by TobyA, you're misunderstanding the system.


The overall grade isn't just a 'seriousness' grade, but relates to general difficulty as well.

In reply to bowls:

Thats not the case at all. Almost every 'big mountaineering route' is in the book. I happen to think its an excellent guidebook. Slightly dated now of course, but quirky, original and a good guide to the winter climbing on offer.

In reply to Joss: Cheers for the info, it will be used.

In reply to al123: http://welshwinterclimbs.wetpaint.com/ is a good resource too

In reply to indalo: Sorry - just mixed my words round- I meant former not latter. Of course 5 is harder than 3!

In reply to al123: thanks for all the help. i have one last question well maybe a few more aha. the forecast says a southerly wind for sunday onwards so if i decieded to go climbing what would be the best direction for the crag to face? and i guess with the forecast its better to stick to ridges? thanks again, ive been trying to figure it all out with lots of reading but im still not 100%. cheers

In reply to bowls:

But all of that is so obvious why one earth does anyone need it stated in the grade?

An experienced hillwalker could safely get to the bottom Diedre of Sorrows, but they probably won't be able to do the first move. Why do we need a grade to reflect that some routes have a lot of hill walking to get to them? I hope people can work that out from a map. I want to know if the gear, and even more so - if the belays are crappy, and I want to know how hard the climbing is and modern Scottish grades do that fine.

In reply to al123:

And people wonder why from the outside climbers are seen as generally un-approachable pretentious wankers.

Am new to the game. This board generally does nothing but confirm what the outside world perceives of climbers...

In reply to bowls:


Funny, I've never met anyone who thinks that. Anyway, it's just been pointed out to you that you have misunderstand how British grades work. I don't know why explaining that makes anyone pretentious. If you want grades to work the way you are suggesting, you need to climb in areas that use either Alpine winter grades or Alaskan grades

In reply to bowls:

And here was me thinking I'd made an honest attempt to clarify some stuff for you!

But, really, for grades how you might think you'd like them to be, try Godefroy Perroux's guide to the Ben. It's a cracking little guide with nice photo topos and loads of useful info, but the grades are so darn confusing (and not always consistently so) that you'll just need to keep checking them against the proper Scottish ones to make sense of them...

Merry Christmas
P

In reply to petestack:

Cheers for that. Sorry, it was a rant born out of frustration as being a newbie to the sport. The board does seem to be full of people jumping down peoples throats when they ask seemingly innocent questions. Been evident on other threads. It was a mistake to write what I did (although some of my friends to perceive climbing in that way!).

I still personally think that the committing nature of a climb/long traverse should have a fairly hefty weighting on part of the grade.