UKC

I am yet to take a fall whilst leading a traditionally protected route. I think this is something that holds me back, I have not even taken any simulated falls. I consider my pro placements to be good, if I'm in much doubt I don't move past it. And I'm also still in the stage where I regularly (pretty much every climb) ask for feedback from my (much more experienced) partner on the placements.

I know that it'll happen at one stage, but even though I'm not climbing epic E grades, I must not be really pushing myself. The thing is, you see falls all the time in climbing videos and they seem to be treated as quite normal. I guess this is because most videos of climbers are professionals trying hard grades and the average Joe like myself aren't taking the same risks.

I'd be interested to know how often people take falls whilst climbing? How do you feel about it, should it always be avoided or is it ok if you have faith in your gear? Do you consider it a noteworthy day if you've fallen?

In reply to Voltemands:

I've yet to take a fall on lead, and on the low-grade stuff I climb, I'd rather keep it that way. Lots of ledges and sticky-outy bits to hit and break ankles on, regardless of how good the protection is!

In reply to Voltemands:
Just keep climbing. It'll happen.

In reply to Voltemands:

I've taken about 15-20 falls in quite a short climbing career. (and many more "slumps" onto gear)

At first this was good because I knew that I was pushing myself and learning to trust gear.

But after a while, I got a bit fed up with it. I think a lot of my recent falls are due to having commitment, but not enough commitment to the move.

In reply to Voltemands: Hardly ever but I started in the days when to do so leading meant serious injury or death. It's not something that should be taken lightly, as it is in sport climbing, and certainly not something I would encourage without knowing more about you. I like to think that my healthy respect for falling keeps me alive rather than inhibiting my progress and I do climb to a reasonable standard. I have lost too many friends and seen too many accidents to think any other way.

Al

In reply to tehmarks:
Good description of the hazards on low grade stuff. I took a small fall on an easier sport route, and hit something on the way down. Broken ankle all but ended any mountain sports bar cragging on easy to access crags. There's some wisdom in the old saying "the leader does not all".

In reply to Voltemands:

I trad climb a lot during the summer - a few times per week, and I take about 1 proper fall per year. A couple of other slips or slumps which don't really involve falling from above the gear.

Taking a proper fall because you're super pumped and stuck, is awful as it becomes horribly clear what's about to happen; but if you've really tried hard and the fall is safe, once it's happened it's a buzz. If I was climbing OK, and I really tried, then yes I reckon a day with a proper fall is a good one - I consider it an achievement to have reached my limit on trad. Note though, that it was probably not a physical limit, as with onsight climbing, it's more likely that I'll have just cocked it up.

I think it's true to say that if you never fall, you're not trying. But if you climb with someone who falls all the time, it's annoying (especially if it's on your gear...I don't know if a certain individual is reading this, if so - no offence! but at the top of your grade, you won't be climbing on my gear...).

For me, I think 2 or 3 proper falls per year would make me feel like I'm pushing myself and I know where my limit is. But these should be on unserious, preferably single pitch routes with easy escapes if, say, an ankle is hurt in the process. Falling off long multipitch traverses on sea cliffs is absolutely not on my agenda at all.

I don't think falling practice on trad gear is a brilliant idea (maybe on someone else's gear, and plenty of it!), but on bolts it may be.

If you are confident your gear is good and you push yourself on routes which are safe then a fall will happen. I took one fall last year about 40ft or so off the top of warpath, I was pushing my grade but knew the consequences of a mistake would mean big air rather than injury. I would rather not fall off an easier route and bump into rocks but you never know. the first fall I ever took was due to a hold snapping and my gear held, it was totally unexpected these are the worst ones. There is a video on youtube somewhere of a guy taking a massive fall off moon walk at curbar.

In reply to Voltemands: http://www.thebmc.co.uk/modules/article.aspx?id=5548

In reply to Voltemands:
guess if youre always falling all the time, youre doing something wrong or maybe trying things youre not capable of doing yet.best not to fall at all in my opinion you may hurt yourself !

In reply to Voltemands:


How often depends what I'm doing. Big unexpected falls are rare, slips, slumps and jumps from tough cruxes reasonably common.

If your gear is good that's one less thing to worry about
jk

In reply to markalmack: Good article.

In reply to Voltemands: I don't think I've fallen more than a dozen times in forty years of climbing.

But i think that's due to the inner chicken in me, as opposed to any special ability. I just don't like falling!!!!!

And i can remember nearly all of them, the most memorable ones being falling off the lip of FBD while soloing (I done it several times before and got cocky), the obligatory 70' whipper off the moves below the girdle ledge on Right Wall, an embarrassing trip over crampon points near the top of the big initial ice field on the Matterhorn NF, and a big big slide (we were soloing up to that point, and a spectacular crater from high on the Red Chimney in Clachaig Gully.

The rest were just the usual 15 - 20 footers in the normal line of duty.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

BMC view:
This article is a performance training article aimed at experienced trad climbers, climbing around E2, who are looking to push their grade. Falling off any trad climb can be risky but remember that falls from easier climbs often have more hazards due to lower-angled rock....

In reply to Ron Walker:

Hence the para in the article:

Granted, if you’re climbing Severe, not falling may be the best option, seeing as most Severes are very low angle and falling off would result in substantial skin loss, a broken foot or worse. However, there are a lot of mid-grade trad climbers who simply do not fall. This is OK if you don’t want to progress.

Personally though I think that's perfectly OK if you don't actually want to fall but there you go.

In reply to Voltemands: It seems to me that falling off routes is almost being promoted these days. DVDS showing long lobs onto distant or sometimes marginal gear (set to a background of exciting music) makes for enthralling viewing but people do end up getting hurt occasionally, even the top lads and lasses. Its all about percentages. The safety margins are usually defined in the grade. The more you push the margins, the greater the odds that you could end up getting hurt. Falling off routes that have ledges etc will result in you having a greater chance of hitting something on the way down. Ankles dont like ledges as im sure plenty of people here will prove. My advice would be to choose wisely (which includes taking calculated risks) and you will live a long and happy life in the mountains

In reply to Voltemands: I only took one fall last year in around 100 climbs I did this was around 8-9 meters ending up in hospital, but considering I only climb VS I dont really fancy falling off at this low grades and hitting everything on my way down. I'm hoping to push to HVS and maybe E1 this year so there will be bit more probably.

In reply to Voltemands:
I recon to fall an average of 5 time per year trad climbing - mainly in the peak on grit. That's on about 30 climbing days. These are mainly short slumps but the odd decent flight. I feel for me this is the right balance for pushing the grade.
NOTE: I am not a gear dangler. For me it's either on or or off.

In reply to Voltemands:

I used to take a lot, but these days most of the stuff I'm likely to fall off has no or little gear, so I'm a lot more wary of taking a fall. One fall last year off an E3, luckily I was only a half-dozen feet above the only gear on the route.

I know that the climbing videos show lots of huge falls, but frankly, and with the greatest respect to the individuals involved, I value my life and don't want to end it any time soon!

I know it holds me back, but I'd rather be a poor climber with limited progression than spending months rehabilitating or helping the wife claim on the life assurance

In reply to Voltemands:
i have been climbing for a year now, did a bit of trad in the summer and managed to have 3 falls on trad. They were all good fun and its helped me trust gear placements. To be fair i was pushing my grade when i took my first fall on the minstrel which was an E1. I managed to take a huge whipper off black and tan on holyhead mountain (only VS but overhanging roof crack as the crux, found it harder than any HVS i have led! not a typical VS by any means) I gained around 35ft air time but had so much gear placed if any was to rip so felt safe.
I suppose its good to have a balance of not being over confident too. I
would only ever push my grade on a well protected route

In reply to Voltemands:

Probably not enough. Half a dozen proper falls in 20 years, a good few more with gear pretty much above me. Hit the ground a couple of times, but never done any serious damage.

I tend not to push myself on rock much these days and haven't taken a fall in years.

In reply to wazzalad20:

You've had as many falls in a year as I've had in over thirty! Good luck and it would be interesting to know if you are still climbing thirty years from now?

In reply to Voltemands:

twice

once hit the deck being stupid and complacent resting on a cam (never again) about 10 feet off the floor and once when a foothold broke at the top of a wet route in the wye valley and I took a good 20 footer onto my only solid 'just in case' piece right at the top.

I've not actually fallen otherwise and have been doing trad since 06 and up the odd E2... probably wont get further than E2 given my hatred of falling

In reply to Jon Stewart: why are you so worried about someone taking falls on your gear? I'm pretty sure that every peice of my gear has taken at least 1 propper lead fall, my cams have taken many. my gear has never been damaged (appart from slight scratches) from taking big falls.

I think if you want to be the best climber you can be, then taking falls is a necessaty (sp?). I get the most enjoyment out of climbing at my limit, when im not sure if im going to be able to hold the sloper im moving onto. If i had never taken a fall, i would be utterly gripped if i was trying something on my limit, and this would hinder my performance massivley.

I also used to try push my grade on the grit and used to love it. now im climbing the harder grades, i find i like the grit less and less. Having no, or poor protection whilst climbing at your limit may be an amazing feeling, but now im finding that the risk is not worth it. If i go down to pembroke i can push my limit and stay safe at thesame time. im even finding now im starting to enjoy sport climbing too!

In reply to Voltemands:

As most of my climbing these days is on easy routes (VS and below) I most certainly want to avoid falling, in fact the easier the route the less I want to fall on it, as this inevitably involves bumping into rock on the way down.

In reply to Voltemands:


I have had two lead falls since 1995.

I also choose climbing partners with similar outlooks on the desire for not falling of trad routes.

And I'd like to keep my climbing career as high risk as that.

In reply to Voltemands: Most people don't climb anywhere near their technical limit on trad. For most mere mortals fear holds you back (and in many ways that's good). The most important thing is to be safe and enjoy it.
It sounds like you are doing the right thing in relation to making sure that your gear placement is the best it can be (as when you do fall you will realise just how important that is).
Last year was my first proper trad year and I took 3 decent lead falls - two off of the same climb, a VS at Subluminal called slip road.
The first time I fell I came off at the top of the crux section having run out of steam (due to having faffed around under the crux for 20 + mins. I fell about 10ft into air with no ill effect).
Looking back that fall was one of the best things that happened to me.
It gave me confidence in my gear/placements, and made me realise that you can fall off. It also gave me confidence to push myself more (I went back and flashed the route a week later).
It was a good route to fall from as it has loads of bomber gear just below an overhanging crux section (so you fall into space).
I see that you've climbed recently at Swanage, if you go there again try Transcript direct (overhanging corner with tonnes of bomber gear and an ace climb) also Ledgend Direct at Guillemot (again more bomber gear than you could carry with a short overhanging crux).
Also another way of getting more comfortable with falling is to take a few on a climbing wall (it does wonders for your head).
But I suppose that the bottom line is Try not to fall off unless you can't avoid it, but don't let your fear hold you back too much. Most importantly stay as safe as you possibly can - good luck

In reply to Voltemands:

If your not flying then your not trying

In reply to markalmack:

Depends on the gear, doesn't it? Let's say there's a big cam, then higher up a dodgy small cam. Chances are the dodgy small cam will be damaged, and they're incredibly expensive. If I could be guaranteed that the fallen-on gear would be big and perfectly placed for taking a lob on, I'd be happier about it, but that's obviously not the case. Also, routes with a fall (or multiple falls, abseling etc) are quite often quite time consuming, faffy experiences. As I say, a few times a year this is fine and essential for progressing, but that really takes away from a great day at the crag if it's what you've come to expect. A day which is mainly success is more fun than a day which is dominated by failure. (Incidentally, this is why I find redpointing and hard bouldering dull...falling off the same moves over and over again I'll do indoors thanks).

Agree with you about grit being annoying, but fantastic when you get on the right route on the right day. I find that there are very few routes a want to push my grade on, and those that there are come with a massive 'onsight pressure'. Too few 'chunky' routes, too many stopper moves, too many ledges, too near the ground. Better for highballing really.

Pembroke is good for grade-pushing, but I'm not a huge fan of limestone. For me, I think the best grade-pushing crag would be some steepish single-pitch volcanic...maybe Hardknott or similar.

In reply to Voltemands: I try to never fall, early on I tried left wall ( my second E2).On the rising traverse I had my hands in the break instead of feet, I soon realised when I got pumped out of my mind. I looked back at my last gear 15 or so feet away, out of the corner of my left eye I could see the top of Snowden, fear made me hang on for my life, place the next gear and have a rest. It put me off E2's also E1's for a good few months.That was years ago.
I still don't fall or fail, but still don't do much above E2!
Don't mind falling indoors but that's why I can climb much harder then.

In reply to Voltemands:

"I guess this is because most videos of climbers are professionals trying hard grades and the average Joe like myself aren't taking the same risks."

Now that's an interesting thing to say. Do you consider professional climbers who fall a lot are taking more risks? Does that seem likely, given that they are climbing a lot more of the time than most of us, therefore exposing themselves more to this "risk", yet most of them seem to manage to avoid death or injury most of the time?

Perhaps the point really is that it's about perception of risk, and ability to accurately assess risk. There are situations trad climbing where falling is unthinkable. There are equally situations where you can be better protected than on a sport route. Given that you have the experience to tell the difference if you can't push yourself as hard in the latter situation as you would on bolts, to the point where you may fail / fall, you probably aren't performing to your potential.

In reply to Voltemands:
in a year and a half climbing i've probably had about 5 or 6 lead falls, mainly around the grade of E1/2. most of the time it was from pushing myself and trying out the routes, so i was climbing almost in a sport climbing style but on trad. to be sure of our gear placements me and my friend who started climbing at the same time together would often practice falls by placing a piece of gear, climbing above it and then jumping out into space to get confidence with our gear placements and with falling correctly etc.
i'll probably be slated for this by someone, either moaning about damage to the gear or rock or whatever, but it has definitely meant that both our climbing has come on a long way, we were climbing at a similar difficulty outdoors on trad as we were at indoor centers. we also did it on cracks that weren't part of the routes around the crag.
in reply to the questions asked then, no it shouldn't always be avoided in my opinion as fear of falling will hold you back from improving. not to say you wont improve without falling, but if you want to get up tp the harder climbs at the higher end of the grade you will inevitably end up falling. if your happy where you are and don't want to push to hard for harder routes then don't worry about it.
and no, its not really a 'noteworthy' day, just look at what it is that caused you to fall, and learn from it so you don't fall due to the same reason again next time.
that's my £0.02's worthy of opinion, coming from a 20y/o climber who enjoys pushing himself.

In reply to Voltemands:

Unexpectedly - twice. 3 times if you count a big fall alpine soloing.
Knowing I'd have to let go and trust the gear - about 4 times.

I'm a bit traditional and stick by "the leader must not fall". If that means I'll never climb the big grades, fair enough!

In reply to Voltemands:

I had my first fall on a S or HS, but started falling off more regularly at around HVS and upwards and yes, that was when I started pushing myself, but also after the first fall I was more comfortable with the idea.

I think I probably fall about once every 5 to 6 sessions on trad although they are probably more notable to me for the failure rather than the fall.

Cake

In reply to Voltemands: You aren't supposed to fall off! That's the whole point. There certainly seems to a be a vogue of practising climbs and falling off. Falling off is a nature's way of telling you you aren't good enough.
If you aren't very good and want to fall off lots on climbs that are currently too hard for you, can I suggest you take up sport climbing. Here someone before you has handily placed lots of bolts you can clip into on the easy bits so you don't have to worry about falling off and hurting yourself when the going gets a bit tougher.

In reply to redsulike:

Thanks for this, I seem to have been blissfully unaware of this part of our sport.


How wonderfully patronising of you. Thanks for your constructive input.

In reply to harry spotter:

....But what you are doing is F**King up the gear placements because you are trying to climb something you aren't good enough to do yet...

In reply to Voltemands: I'd never ever try to fall off. As long as your pro's good, just keeping pushing until it happens. I took my first lead fall on a HVS onto a very poorly placed cam and it held... It gives you confidence that falling doesn't always result in pain and that the gear actually works, but I try my best to avoid it in the first place! I've only ever 'fallen' twice, but i've rested on gear all too often!

In reply to muppetfilter:

How do you know, if you dont try?

In reply to Vince McNally: Try what ? Climbing routes that are too hard for me and falling on the gear causing unnecessary wear and tear to the rock and possibly ME !!!
Personally I know what I can climb on a bad day and on a good day,this has come over time and airtime very rarely happens on gear.

In reply to muppetfilter:

How do you know if you can climb a route or not, if you dont try climbing it?

If you want to climb anywhere near your limit your going to take falls.

You choose not to do this, that is your right. I dont see anything wrong with those that do.

Bare in mind you risk falling off everytime you climb, im assuming you use gear to protect yourself from this?

In reply to Voltemands:

This is an interesting discussion however I am left wondering one question who would you rather tie onto the other end of your rope?

Are you in the 'push the route and any falls are par for the course' camp or are you firmly in the 'leader must never fall camp'?

In reply to muppetfilter: Sound words.

There seems to be a lot of nonsense talked about 'how falling is good for improving your grade' which may work on sport routes, but on mid to low E grades on trad, if you're doing it a lot, just means you're trying routes that are to hard for you.

I wonder just how much consolidation and wide ranging (lots of different styles on different rock in different areas) experience is being built at a given grade, before pushing for the next grade up?

In reply to Goucho:

"There seems to be a lot of nonsense talked about 'how falling is good for improving your grade'."

Nonsense coming from some of the best climbers in the country?
http://davemacleod.blogspot.com/2010/10/muy-caliente.html

In reply to James Oswald: Unfortunately, you can't use somebody pushing climbing difficulty to new levels, at grades where the climbing is so 'on/off' and unknown, in terms of whether it is physically possible, in the same context as someone trying to move up from HVS to E1.

My comment was made in the context of 'average joe' hobby climbing, not a top standard 'professional' climber, who has to keep pushing it to the max, in order to maintain his income from the sport.

In reply to muppetfilter:Shhhhhs ! Next other people will say even climbing solo is causing UNNECESSARY wear and tear , chalk e,c,t - Then the eco/ health & safety crew will catch wind and ban it all !!!
Dont think i'm joking ! it's already that way in the USA ! you need a pass/permit to go see a lot of the Boulder's and crag's and even then you have to have a guide with you ! No pass, No guide, No Climbing ! NO SH&T

In reply to Goucho: if you are comfortable with th fact that you might fall off you can relax when gear is good and ENJOY climbing more

In reply to The Lemming: Definitely someone with the knowledge, skills and ability to be safe and who's priorities are
-have a laugh
- have great experiences
- achieve highs by pushing it within the bounds of safety
Seems a good job Miss V is all the above and good lookin' to boot.

And I'm definitely of the leader must not fall mind set. I understand that I know how to protect my falls, like I mentioned earlier - if I don't like a runner I don't move past it. I enjoy cycling/running too much to take what I consider mobility threatening risks.

In reply to Voltemands:

Last year was the first year I went for it with my trad climbing for a long time. In the process I took about ten falls, which is what I'd expect if I were pushing my grade.

In reply to thomas m: I've always enjoyed my climbing most by NOT falling off - being relaxed and in control is for me one of the most important aspects of climbing - and I can't say that philosophy has really held me back grade wise.

But then again, I've always climbed routes because they appealed to me, not because of the grade attached to them.

In reply to Goucho:

How do you think someone like that goes from 'average joe' to pushing difficulty to new levels?

In reply to Voltemands:
I've always enjoyed turning up at the crag and climbing on-sight. I take the same approach with sports climbs. I've occasionally been tempted to play with hard routes where the climb appealed in some way or another. Some like to work routes, some don't and for others it just depends on the day. I think there is a lot to be said for working up the grades slowly and enjoying the climbs you do.

In reply to Vince McNally: Average Joe's don't reach that level. I doubt DM or any other top climber has ever been an Average Joe!

And that is not meant as a cheap shot at Average Joe's - 95% of the climbing population (and I include myself) are Average Joe's.

In reply to Goucho:

So if taking falls helps someone to achieve this, its a good thing yes?

In reply to Goucho:

In reply to Vince McNally: It's horses for courses. I think the reason a lot of people fall a lot, is nothing to do with pushing themselves to reach achievable new levels it's trying to reach new levels before they're good enough.

In reply to Vince McNally: Really???????

In reply to Voltemands:Never fell off for years then one day (83/84) at Chee Tor fell off Hergiana(sp),went 15/20ft,went back up and did it.Then fell off Segyenna(sp)twice before i got it.Then never fell off again for years then in 09 slid/fell about 500ft in Nethermost Cove,thought I was going to die.Scary.But I still go out.

In reply to Goucho:

DM wasnt born with the ability to stay calm above huge runnouts. It took him about ten years to aquire the ability. and he did it by taking hundreds of lead falls.
Its all in his book

In reply to Vince McNally: But he was born with a natural talent for climbing - you have to be in order to reach those standards.

However, there are dozens of top climbers throughout history who did it without taking hundreds of falls. As I said it's horses for courses.

If DM had also taken hundreds of leader falls whilst wearing a green lampshade on his head, would you suggest everybody pays a visit to British Home Stores before that 'big send'?

In reply to Goucho:

Actually I dont disagree with this. I just dont think its a bad thing.

In reply to Goucho:
I

I think he'd disagree with that. He's (one) of the very best because he tries the hardest consistently.

In reply to James Oswald:

spot on

In reply to Goucho:

No but I would take his ideas on climbing seriously.

In reply to James Oswald:

To back up my point:


OCC: It’s always seemed to me that 'natural talent' in sport can sometimes bring problems as well as benefits. Many climbers who have the most prolific careers have had rather ordinary abilities to start with that have catalysed a determination and work ethic that goes on to surpass the natural talents (who get too used to success without effort). Do you agree with this? If so, do you try to develop determination in your coaching and in your own climbing?

Neil: I couldn’t possible agree with this any more. So often the most talented climbers, especially the young ones are total slackers. In short, they don’t appreciate what they’ve got because they haven’t worked for it. There is nothing like being fundamentally un-talented to make you realize that you have to capitalize on the fleeting moments when you feel that you might be in with a chance. This ethos has defined my entire climbing career. It means that your finishing game becomes your strongest weapon. Can it be coached? Indeed it can! Let’s move away from nonchalant teenagers and look at keen but less-experienced adults – many just don’t know hard you have to try. It was Sean Miles who once told me that one of the big things that goes wrong with his climbing after a break is that he forgets how much effort you need to put in. This statement holds true both in the present sense (mid-climb) and also with your overall approach to training. Look at Rich Simpson and Chris Cubitt – these guys have sweated blood for it. The right attitude can be nurtured with anything from the use of key words as metaphors to tougher goal setting. There are all sorts of devices.

http://onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.com/2006/08/interview-neil-gresham.html

In reply to James Oswald:

I think the point that was being made was not that DM hasn't worked for it but that a combination on natural talent and determiation are needed to be the best. And that even if he'd been lazy and not as good as he currently is, he still would have made most of us look average.

Sure there are people chuck away a natural avantage, and people who turn a being 'un-talented' into a driving force to be better than average, even very good. But there are also people who put in just as much effort as a pro, just to be average. This is true of every part of life, why should climbing be different?

In reply to Voltemands:

I'm not going to get into the bun fight. My first 3 years of trad leading resulted in 1 to 2 falls a year, last year none at all. I don't like falling, partly because I'm a sub E1 punter and there's a good chance of hitting a sticky out bit and getting hurt and partly because I like flashing climbs (onsighting might be a bit of a generous description) and falling means blowing the flash.

In reply to Goucho:


Yes you can. You can dress it up so it sounds like something it's not but basically what DM is advocating is trying hard and risking failing. That's a pretty reasonable approach if improvement is your goal and you're competent enough to stack the odds in favor of your surviving the experience.


I don't see the difference (except in the absolute level of 'the max').

You don't be taking falls to improve or climb 'hard' for that matter but if you want to be operating close to your current potential you will.
jk

In reply to jkarran: "You don't be taking falls to improve or climb 'hard' for that matter but if you want to be operating close to your current potential you will."

Your current potential is what you can get up, not what you can fall off!

In reply to Goucho:


Indeed but without falling off occasionally you cannot ever really know what the hardest thing you can get up is! Obviously falling off something is not in itself any real achievement.

jk

In reply to Voltemands:

Style has to come into here somewhere, and falling off is definitely 4 faults for a refusal.

Me? I fall off when all other options have been exhausted, and with the greatest reluctance and never with a sense of 'chucking my hand in and giving up'. That gets interesting if making one more move just makes the whole thing worse.

The key to style is not letting others know that you are a finger nail's edge from falling off. Whimpering or sobbing are not good either

In reply to Goucho:


Maybe.

Or maybe...

youtube.com/watch?v=PH8nTfxwByY&

In reply to jkarran: And like Dave M says, the point between success and failure is where you learn. You can't instantly be good at something. Skills take time to aquire so why should people climbing be any different? You have to practice a lot to do something well and that involves first doing it badly, to the point of failure.

In reply to Voltemands:

Coming in a little late to this one.... I have had a couple of small falls and several slumps onto gear, but I wouldnt actively encourage simulated falls onto trad gear, I really dont think it is worth the risk. I may one day get my head into the right place so that falling isn't an issue, but it's doubtful, in the mean time, they'll be foot slips and hand slips above gear, and I hope it holds me.....

Ooooh bring on the good weather!!

In reply to fraserbarrett:

Im not sure I buy this 'natural talent' thing anyway.

I mean can anyone give me a scientific explanation of natural talent?

and im not talking about physiology

In reply to Voltemands: Interesting thread. Will read thoroughly when more time.

In reply to Voltemands:
I've been trad climbing for about 6 years and currently leading about E1. In that time I've fallen off 2 routes, one of them twice and the other about 4 times. I've rested on gear on maybe half a dozen routes but all the others have been climbed on sight or at least flashed.

Based on looking at other peoples gear placements I'm not sure the fashion for falling off is very healthy as it has become fairly aparent that a not insignificant proportion of climbers aren't very good at placing gear.