UKC

If you check out the grade of the common top pitch of both these climbs, it is either 4c or 5a? Why the difference apart from one being S and the other a VS?

In reply to Sean Kelly:

which guide ?

In reply to Sean Kelly:
Cos that's not why Lorraine gets the VS grade. It's one hard (height dependent) move from a ledge by perfect gear. Isn't the cracks HS anyway, not severe.

In reply to Sean Kelly:

Obvious really if you can only climb hard severe then it seems 5a. To the vs climber it is easier. Or maybe you are more tired after climbing vs so the mantleshelf is easier after doing the cracks.

James

In reply to mann9076:
Sorry but that's rubbish. It s a hard move but only one v safe move. It's easily outflanked as well. So, taking that pitch on it's own, it's not VS and it's not why Lorraine gets VS (nor the Cracks HS I suspect).

In reply to Skyfall:

Woah there sausage! I was only kidding. Am pretty certain that this top pitch has never been given more than 4c in the past. The current cc guide does give p3 of Lorraine as 5c though which must just be an error. Imo the groove on p2 is probably the crux and felt poorly protected with my basic rack of the early 90s.

James

In reply to mann9076:

Sausage yourself mate. If you're not being serious (whch I doubt), give s a clue hey.

In reply to Skyfall:

Have you thought about a humour transplant?

In reply to mann9076:

Have you thought about how you come across posting without a profile and without any hint at your so obvious humour...?

If it's the move I'm thinking of, 5c seems about right. I'm comfortable on 5b but fell off this, and only managed it with a pull from above [so didn't really manage it!]

In reply to Sean Kelly:

Did both in the last few days.
The top mantle is the same on both routes. For me it is 4c, but for a shorter person it is 5a. I wouldn't like to make the decision as to it's true grade.
Both routes are good at their grade. Cracks is worth Hard Severe and Lorraine VS for pitch 2.
Do we grade for the short or the tall? I have the ability to outreach many one move cruxes, and friends often tell me it is unfair as they can't. Good luck with getting a definitive grade for the last pitch, but personally I would leave it at 5a so (shorter) people don't get fooled. (It can be avoided!)

In reply to johncook:

That top pitch, in one of the earlier guide books, used to have a very amusing comment. If I remember rightly the HS grade was for the standard BMC 5' 8" tall climber. Any smaller and it would be harder. And at 5' 6" tall I always found that to be absolutely true

John Gresty

In reply to Skyfall:
Sorry. I thought it was obvious that he was joking.....

In reply to John Gresty:

I'm 6ft with a plus 4.5inch ape index. I can reach the jugs from the belay nearly!

In reply to Sean Kelly:

Sean Kelly: Sorry but everyone seems to be missing the point. ie. that the top pitch is common to both climbs. There is no difference in the climbing when finishing both these climbs, BUT the grade is different! How can the same climbing moves be a different grade? It's nothing to do with height or climbing skill as to why the grades differ. Just that they are either 4c or 5a depending on which climb one is doing (guidebook errors excepted). I can't recall any other climb with common pitches, which grade them differently. I personally think that this anomaly is historical and nobody has ever thought about sorting it out. As for the true grade, I would suggest 5a, as the top move has certainly got more polished since I first climbed it more than 45 years ago. Incidently a young lady climbing with me last year (about 5'5" in height) easily flowed up the moves using bridging techniques.

In reply to Sean Kelly:

I have looked at three different guidebooks and see no anomilies in the grades. They each explain the height depenancy issue and how this effects the grading.
Which guide are you refering to ?

In reply to johncook:

Moff said easy 4c when we did it so dont apply universal blame to short people.

In reply to John Gresty:



Jack Geldards's North Wales Classics. Page 97)
The Cracks P5.15m. 4c Head up and right to make the slippery mantle onto a rounder ledge....
Lorraine P5. 15m. 5a As for 'The Cracks' final pitch!

then here on UKC
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3254 P5 is 4c here
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3256 where P5 is....5a!
Aggh!

In reply to Sean Kelly: Just checked in my Llanberis guide and the top pitch of The Cracks has no technical grade, while for Lorraine it's given as 4c.

Mind you, there are still routes in my guide that are described with points of aid. In defence of the 1981 guide, it is rather slimmer than more recent incarnations.

T.

In reply to Sean Kelly:

I agree its daft but its not the only one. Goliath's Groove and Doncaster's route shared a common crux for decades at a different grade. In the early days there was a difference as offwidth skills were better honed then and the top of GG was unprotected but the guides forgot to readjust when the top crack became protectable and climbers got deskilled on wide cracks.