UKC

Hi me and the kids are planning on moving from indoor climbing to trad climbing next summer and I want to start building a trad rack in advance.

So my question is we will mostly be climbing stanage and am interested in knowing what kind of protection do I need for stanage ie will I use mainly nuts or will I mainly need cams or a mix of both

In reply to bobble off:


A mix of both is normal. You can get by on a lot of routes with nuts/hexes rather than cams and a lot of people will suggest you should but really cams are more useful. 3 or 4 cams from 1" to 4" (open) plus a set of nuts will see you able to adequately protect the majority of routes you'll be getting on.

jk

In reply to jkarran:

You can certainly get by without cams, but they do make life a lot easier! Depends on budget really.

In reply to bobble off:

A standard set of nuts, a couple of hexes and a couple of cams will get you a long way. Size 2 and 3 cams seem to get the most use from me.

Personally I prefer the large rocks to small hexes. Torque nuts are another popular option.

In reply to bobble off:

Don't forget a few slings and longer quick draws than you are perhaps used to seeing. Google sling draws for a good idea.

In reply to jkarran:
>You can get by on a lot of routes with nuts/hexes rather than cams and a lot of people will suggest you should but really cams are more useful.
>

Cams aren't "more useful", sometimes they are needed on a route, sometimes (especially on beginner routes) they are not needed.
Learning to spot and use good nut placements is a fundamental trad leading skill.
For a new outdoor trad leader, I'd be another advocate of buying nuts before cams.

In reply to eduardo:


And in no time at all those hexes you spent your money on won't be fitting in the rounded breaks of the routes you aspire to. The cams you could have bought would. Spend twice, run it out or stick to the cracks...

Cams often fit where hexes won't, the opposite is rarely true.
jk

In reply to bobble off:

Maybe a large sling, for building belays

Thanks for the words of wisdom I was going to get a few cams anyway because well you never know do you.

In reply to jkarran:

Ah but in contrast cams sometimes fail when hexes don't (less likely on grit admittedly).

In reply to jkarran:


This is true. I don't use hexes myself. I use large nuts (size 11+), in preference to similar sized smaller hexes. I was just saying that as a first set of pro I'd buy (and learn to use) nuts rather than cams.

I'd buy cams rather than hexes for larger placements. And of course smaller cams will work in may situations where medium and large nuts won't.

In reply to bobble off:

As with any gritstone crag you'll need mostly big chocks and cams.

Your initial question reminded me of two Spanish tourist climbers who I once met at Stanage. They turned up with nothing but quickdraws expecting the crag to be bolted like the routes they climbed on back home!

In reply to eduardo:


I'd start with a set of rocks (1-10) and a set of three cams. If I had to chose one or the other I'd take the rocks, but I'd start saving up for cams sharpish. After that, four torque nuts or three more cams.

I don't really get the argument for learning to place nuts before getting cams unless it's just financial. They're fairly distinct skills and it's hardly beyond the wit of man to learn both at once. And I don't think that having some cams doesn't mean that you'll always just wang in a cam and not bother learning to place nuts because a) you can't always just wang in a cam and b) it seems to be an almost universal human instinct to be a bit leery of cams and to prefer to put in passive gear if possible. From my experience, the difficulty with beginners is normally getting them to trust cams at all, rather than getting them to stop placing cams for long enough to learn to place nuts as well!

In reply to bobble off:

Top-roping is also an option in the mean-time. On a lot of Stanage you only need a few slings and carabiners and the rope itself. (And maybe a shortish rigging rope if you want to belay from the bottom.)

Don't hog routes for absolutely ages and don't scrabble about polishing routes that are way too hard for you, but don't necessarily believe the hype that you have to lead everything either.

There will be routes you'll want to save for a future onsight lead though probably. They're worth it.

In reply to bobble off:

i wouldn't go near stanage without a few cams: it is the world capital of rounded breaks.

the only purpose served by hexes is to allow their users to post sanctimoniously about how placing them in breaks is an art. Art or not, you won't catch me falling on one (because I'll probably be decking out).

In reply to Jon Stewart:

My issue with cams is that I'm never 100% certain of their holding power, especially on limestone. I've seen, what I would class as a good placement, pop out in a fall. If I can get a good nut in that would always be my preference. Saying that I have seen cams hold which didn't look so good but I just can't shake off that slight lack of confidence in them.

In reply to bobble off:

... back to topic ...

3-4 cams, a set of nuts and some slings will see you up there. A modern set of hexes (like Torque Nuts) will come in useful, but not as much as the rest on grit (where the breaks are really made for cams).

In reply to bobble off:

... and off topic again ...

When I'm not climbing on grit
Sometimes my cams just don't fit
Although some people don't like the noise
Hexes really are useful toys

(I'll keep the day job)

In reply to bobble off:

Don't forget to get yourself a helmet and a nut key as well. :

In reply to bobble off:

I started with a set of DMM walnuts 1-11 (although generally 1-4 don;t see much use at Stanage) and then added DMM 4CUs 1,2 and 3. Combined with a few slings and long quickdraws and extra screwgates for belays, that should get you up most beginner routes at Stanage.

Make sure you read up (or get some tuition) on building good belays as I think this is the steepest part of the indoor to outdoor learning curve. Placing runners is pretty easy and chances are you'll never have to test them on easy routes (but don't let that make you complacent) whereas your belay is going to have both you and your kids hanging off of it so you need to get it right.

In reply to Oujmik:

One thing to be aware of at Stanage (and similar grit crags) is that there is sometimes (though not always!) a bomber belay at the top of the route. Like a boulder the size of your car. So don't spend 15 minutes fiddling in tiny nuts because you've missed the really obvious

In reply to climbwhenready:

Similarly don't see a boulder the size of your microwave, bung a sling round it, and assume it'll stay put...

In reply to jkarran:

I'm pretty sure that cammed hexes (and tricams) will in fact fit places cams won't work or would likely be damaged if loaded, Like horizontally oriented cracks for one.

In reply to KellyKettle:


Goodness no. Horizontally oriented cracks are MADE for cams. Go climb Hargreaves Original at Stanage without a rack of medium sized cams and see how you get on.

Where tricams have a unique edge is in placing them in narrow shot holes, too narrow for a cam head. Mind you, modern microcams are becoming so slim that the advantage is being eroded. Tricams and hexes are also much harder to place when pumped or heaving hard. Great for winter, mind.

In reply to bobble off:

Hello,

myself and my girlfriend were in a similar position this time last year (albeit starting to climb at Harborough). We got a set of DMM nuts and hexes (if you buy a combined set they were much cheaper than buying individually). The nuts have seen quite a bit of use but I think we only placed hexes twice during any of the top roping or leading that we did. we found slings to be very useful though. Our shopping list for this winter is a shorter rope (we bought 60m), a few more quick draws with longish slings and maybe some cams if we are feeling rich.

Hope that helps, Josh

In reply to eduardo:




I agree - cams aren't "more useful" than nuts, they're EQUALLY as useful. I don't understand this "beginners don't need cams" snobbery.

Get both, and learn how to use them. Its not like cams replace nuts is it? Just a different kind of protection which does a different job.

Plus they're about a million times easier to place and remove than hexes, and mean you don't ruin everyone's quiet day by sounding like a Swiss cow herd. Winter is a different game - but this is about Stanage in the summer.

In reply to BnB:

I still have all rigid stemmed cams, placed in a horizontal crack with the stem perpendicular to the plane of the rock and loaded downwards, bye bye cam... Maybe time to upgrade?

I am in a similar situation and looking at a set of wallnuts with a set of camalots. What sizes cams would get most use on grit so i know what to buy first then build on later

In reply to KellyKettle:


Yes. If you want to place good gear in horizontal cracks, I would advise using the appropriate piece.

I think I get the picture a nice mix of cams and nuts will see me safely up. I definitely need some one to show me the ropes when it comes to trad ive seen instructional videos on setting anchors for belaying a second and building a top rope but you cant beat a actual person checking I've done it right.

Another idea ive had especialy for my son is to top rope him while he practices placing protection, is this a thing??

In reply to bobble off:

If you climb at the Foundry are they offering the BMC subsidised get out on rock courses?

Might have to wait til next year now though.

I think that would probably be a decent investment, you'd get a good idea about how to spend on gear too. Concentrate on anchors for top ropes.


The best place to practice is on the ground but even then I would think it might be a while (years) before you're happy watching your kids lead climbs on protection they've placed themselves, if they decide that's what they want to do, not all kids take to it (even highly competent sport climbers).

In reply to bobble off:


Ha ha - I'm afraid you've managed to set off the latest episode of one of UKC's less vitriolic running arguments.


Yeah, it's not rocket science but it's definitely one of the bits of climbing with the most scope for error.


It's certainly a thing. IMHO it's a bit of a faff and doesn't have much to commend it over just getting people to practice placing gear at or near ground level and then getting them on the sharp end on something very easy, but a lot of people seem to think otherwise.

Oh yeah, and at the risk of stating the obvious, there's one other thing - don't get too blinkered about Stanage. It's great, of course, particularly for low to middling grades, but there's a lot more to the Peak, from plenty of equally accessible and approachable bits to the big remote moorland crags where the walk-in and the solitude and the amazing location mean that even straightforward routes have a sense of adventure.

In reply to KellyKettle:


I'm pretty sure you're right, I never claimed otherwise. I said it's rare that a hex will work where a cam wouldn't. I know this isn't universally true, knobbly limestone cracks are a prime example but the OP was about gear for Stanage, a crag with lots of rounded flares, pods and breaks, features that accept cams where hexes rattle free or will not seat to begin with cammed or not.

Tricams have their uses but given they're cost comparable with cheap SLCD I know which I'd get first (I have tricams and hexes, I routinely leave them at home).

jk

In reply to gdjcoleman:


Camalots .75, 1, 2
Or dragons 2, 3, 4
Basically any manufacturer green, red, yellow

In reply to climbwhenready:

+1 for dragons green, red and yellow

In reply to bobble off:

You won't go far wrong not getting hung up on the discussions/arguments here and taking the advice of Mr Kirkpatrick

http://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/rock_rack

If you scroll down he gives examples of the types of rack you might need as you progress.

In reply to GridNorth:

My ex-wife, (already ex by then), was belaying Nick Bullock on Scarab, my youngest daughter Jo who had just started climbing and doing well in competitions by then but had never done outside trad, was stood next to her
"Mummy, what will happen if Nick falls off?"
" Its ok love, see that big pocket Nick has just put a big friend in it and that will hold him if he falls"
Seconds later Nick was crunching into the ground narrowly missing Jo, very shortly followed by the friend.
“What happened Mummy? You said he would be ok with that friend"
Nick realising the seriousness of the situation, Jo being put off climbing.
“I’m ok Jo, it was good enough to break my fall"
Nick wandered off into the trees trying not to limp, strangely somebody was heard screaming in the direction he had gone,

In reply to Rylstone_Cowboy:

>> 'Your initial question reminded me of two Spanish tourist climbers who I once met at Stanage. They turned up with nothing but quickdraws expecting the crag to be bolted like the routes they climbed on back home!'

Maybe they were the same two we saw at the bottom of The Dervish peering up to see where the bolts were?

In reply to Pekkie:

or the ones seen at Swanage, apparently, although they may have been French

In reply to deepsoup:

Call this a daft questio or my stupidity but why would I need rigging rope to belay from the bottom?

In reply to bobble off:

For creating a toprope anchor point?

In reply to bobble off:

A rigging rope is often useful to connect anchors together and extend beyond the edge at the top, which reduces rope drag, protects the rock from erosion as your rope rubs across it (important), and protects your climbing rope from wear as it rubs the rock (less important, but still a good thing, especially on rough gritstone).

Some of the best anchors at Stanage are threads and/or sometimes a big rope lasso around boulders back a way from the edge.

When belaying from the top, either top-roping or bringing up the second after a lead you can use your lead rope for the same job if necessary.

In reply to deepsoup:

A static rope is better for rigging, as the rope stretches less and so the rigging isn't pulled over the edge as far when loaded, and so less rope wear happens (pad any edges!).

However, if you only have a single dynamic rope you can often rig a bottom rope with the tail end of the rope. For example, if you use 10m of a 60m single for the rigging, which puts a carabiner over the edge, that leaves you with 50m. You then drop a loop of rope down to the ground, back up to and into the carabiner, and then back down the ground where the climber ties in. You belay from the loop of rope. Since the rope goes up and down 3 times, you can climb on routes up to 50m/3 = ~16m (don't forget this depends on the amount you use rigging).