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Caffeine is said to be the most popular, widely used, psychoactive drug in the world.
There are a lot of studies that suggest caffeine is a performance enhancer in a wide range of sports. It increases both endurance and skill levels so would probably be pretty good for climbing. So has anyone noticed this and does anyone deliberately use caffeine to enhance climbing performance?
A friend of mine once went climbing a good few hours after taking a small amount of cocaine. He was surprised at the residual effects of the drug, particularly in not getting pumped. As he managed to climb around a grade harder than usual he actually concluded it was obviously cheating.
So if caffeine enhances performance in a similar way is that cheating? If not why not?
There are a lot of studies that suggest caffeine is a performance enhancer in a wide range of sports. It increases both endurance and skill levels so would probably be pretty good for climbing. So has anyone noticed this and does anyone deliberately use caffeine to enhance climbing performance?
A friend of mine once went climbing a good few hours after taking a small amount of cocaine. He was surprised at the residual effects of the drug, particularly in not getting pumped. As he managed to climb around a grade harder than usual he actually concluded it was obviously cheating.
So if caffeine enhances performance in a similar way is that cheating? If not why not?
In reply to stp:
I don't reckon cocaine is cheating.
Certainly no more than sticky rubber and ultralight gear.
I don't reckon cocaine is cheating.
Certainly no more than sticky rubber and ultralight gear.
In reply to stp:
Yes.
No.
Climbing doesn't have any rules concerning drug taking. In fact, climbing doesn't have any rules at all (unless you are talking specifically about competition climbing).
> Does anyone deliberately use caffeine to enhance climbing performance?
Yes.
> Is that cheating?
No.
> If not why not?
Climbing doesn't have any rules concerning drug taking. In fact, climbing doesn't have any rules at all (unless you are talking specifically about competition climbing).
Post edited at 11:14
In reply to stp:
Yes. Without my breakfast coffee I would be barely able to make it to the crag, and so unable to climb anything at all.
> does anyone deliberately use caffeine to enhance climbing performance?
Yes. Without my breakfast coffee I would be barely able to make it to the crag, and so unable to climb anything at all.
2
In reply to stp:
I'm absolutely useless on a long day out (be that cragging or multipitch) if I don't have regular top-ups of caffeine, be that from a thermos of tea or coffee, or those horrible energy gels or shot bloks.
For me, it isn't a performance enhancer, it is the very most basic of on/off switches.
With regards to cocaine, I wouldn't be against it in a climbing partner per se, but chances are if you've bought a bag of coke with your own money you're probably a bit of a tw*t (scientific studies have shown that 95% of regular cocaine users are total arseholes). I have very relaxed views on most recreational drugs, many of which are sadly much maligned, but cocaine is a totally different story.
I wouldn't mind trying the original South American energy drink though - coca leaves steeped in a bottle of wine.
I'm absolutely useless on a long day out (be that cragging or multipitch) if I don't have regular top-ups of caffeine, be that from a thermos of tea or coffee, or those horrible energy gels or shot bloks.
For me, it isn't a performance enhancer, it is the very most basic of on/off switches.
With regards to cocaine, I wouldn't be against it in a climbing partner per se, but chances are if you've bought a bag of coke with your own money you're probably a bit of a tw*t (scientific studies have shown that 95% of regular cocaine users are total arseholes). I have very relaxed views on most recreational drugs, many of which are sadly much maligned, but cocaine is a totally different story.
I wouldn't mind trying the original South American energy drink though - coca leaves steeped in a bottle of wine.
Post edited at 11:30
In reply to stp:
Caffeine has indeed been used by athletes the world over for many years, it is both legally accepted and socially accepted. Tour de France riders have been drinking flat coke towards the end of stages for years, a caffeine kick and sugar rush towards the end of long days. In fact in earlier era's they often stopped in pubs and drank alcohol... see Tom Simpsons death. It was pretty normal. I guess they migrated from alcohol into prescription drugs in more recent years and Marco Pantani is alleged to have been a serious Cocaine user.
When I climb on a weekend I usually have a red bull prior to the climb, its habit and I don't drink coffee. Does it help? Well it helps make me feel a little more alert/awake. It gets me into action quicker. Does it help my climbing? Nope, but it helps get me going.
Caffeine has indeed been used by athletes the world over for many years, it is both legally accepted and socially accepted. Tour de France riders have been drinking flat coke towards the end of stages for years, a caffeine kick and sugar rush towards the end of long days. In fact in earlier era's they often stopped in pubs and drank alcohol... see Tom Simpsons death. It was pretty normal. I guess they migrated from alcohol into prescription drugs in more recent years and Marco Pantani is alleged to have been a serious Cocaine user.
When I climb on a weekend I usually have a red bull prior to the climb, its habit and I don't drink coffee. Does it help? Well it helps make me feel a little more alert/awake. It gets me into action quicker. Does it help my climbing? Nope, but it helps get me going.
In reply to stp:
I read a good article in Cyclist magazine last month which summarised the science behind Caffeine, focusing particularly on the frequent use by professional cyclists of a can of flat coke (as another poster mentioned).
IIRC correctly the science says that caffeine does have a clear performance benefit... but only at doses way higher than you find in a can of coke or even a cup of strong coffee.
I don't recall the exact numbers but it was something like teh equivalent caffeine of 6 cans of coke or something like that.... I'll see if I can track down the article.
I read a good article in Cyclist magazine last month which summarised the science behind Caffeine, focusing particularly on the frequent use by professional cyclists of a can of flat coke (as another poster mentioned).
IIRC correctly the science says that caffeine does have a clear performance benefit... but only at doses way higher than you find in a can of coke or even a cup of strong coffee.
I don't recall the exact numbers but it was something like teh equivalent caffeine of 6 cans of coke or something like that.... I'll see if I can track down the article.
In reply to stp:
It's not the article I was thinking of, but it helps:
http://www.bicycling.com/training-nutrition/nutrition-weight-loss/caffeine-...
"It takes about three to six milligrams of caffeine per kilogram of body weight for most people to notice a performance benefit"
I weigh 70kg so would need 420mg of caffeine for a boost.
Google tells me the caffeine content of:
A can of coke = 8mg
A coffee = 40mg
Conclusion for cyclists:
Caffeine provides a boost but if you want to get it you need to use supplements, as you would need to drink 10 coffees (or 50 cokes!) to reach the required amount otherwise.
It's not the article I was thinking of, but it helps:
http://www.bicycling.com/training-nutrition/nutrition-weight-loss/caffeine-...
"It takes about three to six milligrams of caffeine per kilogram of body weight for most people to notice a performance benefit"
I weigh 70kg so would need 420mg of caffeine for a boost.
Google tells me the caffeine content of:
A can of coke = 8mg
A coffee = 40mg
Conclusion for cyclists:
Caffeine provides a boost but if you want to get it you need to use supplements, as you would need to drink 10 coffees (or 50 cokes!) to reach the required amount otherwise.
In reply to Alun:
Or 2ish tubes of the energy gels from the stronger-end of the spectrum.
I have to say, the stronger tubes really do give you a lift, your knees are much easier to lift after one of them.
> Conclusion for cyclists:
> Caffeine provides a boost but if you want to get it you need to use supplements, as you would need to drink 10 coffees (or 50 cokes!) to reach the required amount otherwise.
Or 2ish tubes of the energy gels from the stronger-end of the spectrum.
I have to say, the stronger tubes really do give you a lift, your knees are much easier to lift after one of them.
In reply to stp:
And to provide my take on your final question:
I think it's not banned because :
- it is too easy to take from a variety of other sources
- the performance benefit is variable person to person and varies by the weight of the person etc.
- it's not particularly dangerous (at least not compared to other performance enhancing drugs)
all of which mean that it's an overreaction to ban it outright, and impractical to set limits. So, according the rules, it's not cheating. At least that's what I tell myself when a stop for a coffee on a long ride!
And to provide my take on your final question:
> So if caffeine enhances performance in a similar way is that cheating? If not why not?
I think it's not banned because :
- it is too easy to take from a variety of other sources
- the performance benefit is variable person to person and varies by the weight of the person etc.
- it's not particularly dangerous (at least not compared to other performance enhancing drugs)
all of which mean that it's an overreaction to ban it outright, and impractical to set limits. So, according the rules, it's not cheating. At least that's what I tell myself when a stop for a coffee on a long ride!
In reply to Pete Houghton:
Yes undoubtedly, though I wonder how much of that is down to the injection of sugar straight into your bloodstream!
> I have to say, the stronger tubes really do give you a lift, your knees are much easier to lift after one of them.
Yes undoubtedly, though I wonder how much of that is down to the injection of sugar straight into your bloodstream!
In reply to Alun:
Oh, the sugars give a massive kick up the arse, no doubt, but if you are taking them towards the end of a particularly long day when fatigue is starting to be a real drag, I've found that you do actually feel the successive waves of energy that each component gives you - the simplest sugars are pretty much instantaneous, the caffeine takes about fifteen minutes or so to really kick in, and then there might be some maltodextrin stuff lingering at the back. It's quite interesting, it gives you something to think about as you're plodding endlessly away. (source - ultra runner)
Oh, the sugars give a massive kick up the arse, no doubt, but if you are taking them towards the end of a particularly long day when fatigue is starting to be a real drag, I've found that you do actually feel the successive waves of energy that each component gives you - the simplest sugars are pretty much instantaneous, the caffeine takes about fifteen minutes or so to really kick in, and then there might be some maltodextrin stuff lingering at the back. It's quite interesting, it gives you something to think about as you're plodding endlessly away. (source - ultra runner)
In reply to Alun:
Strictly it isn't "cheating" if it isn't "against the rules" - this is slight different to being "fair". For climbing outside of competitions the "rules" as such are really very woolly and more to do with ethics.
For habitual users (ie the vast majority of the population) I doubt it makes sod all difference for the routine. It clearly offers a boost in some terms (presumably with an associate post caffeine slump). However, while loading up with proplus laced energy gels might help a cyclist complete 100km a little faster or someone to run through the night on the UTMB I'm not sure it is clear that bobbling around all jittery helps a climber.
Strictly it isn't "cheating" if it isn't "against the rules" - this is slight different to being "fair". For climbing outside of competitions the "rules" as such are really very woolly and more to do with ethics.
For habitual users (ie the vast majority of the population) I doubt it makes sod all difference for the routine. It clearly offers a boost in some terms (presumably with an associate post caffeine slump). However, while loading up with proplus laced energy gels might help a cyclist complete 100km a little faster or someone to run through the night on the UTMB I'm not sure it is clear that bobbling around all jittery helps a climber.
In reply to Robert Durran:
Well I think the thought was that free climbing means using no aid. And the effect of the drug seemed roughly equivalent to taking a rest point on one of the bolts. So hence it was cheating, like saying you've climbed a route free when you've taken a rest.
I think the problem would be if say there were two climbers trying complete a new route: much like Ondra and Sharma trying La Dura Dura. If one chooses to use a performance enhancing drug like that it almost forces the other one to do the same to remain competitive. An independent adjudicator would logically say that it make more sense if neither of them take the substance rather than both.
> In fact, climbing doesn't have any rules at all (unless you are talking specifically about competition climbing).
Well I think the thought was that free climbing means using no aid. And the effect of the drug seemed roughly equivalent to taking a rest point on one of the bolts. So hence it was cheating, like saying you've climbed a route free when you've taken a rest.
I think the problem would be if say there were two climbers trying complete a new route: much like Ondra and Sharma trying La Dura Dura. If one chooses to use a performance enhancing drug like that it almost forces the other one to do the same to remain competitive. An independent adjudicator would logically say that it make more sense if neither of them take the substance rather than both.
In reply to stp:
Google tells me this:
The International Olympic Committee currently lists caffeine as a restricted drug. Urinary levels up to a concentration of12 mg/liter are acceptable, representing casual use. Levels above this are viewed as achieved through a deliberate attempt at doping by the athlete. Approximately 1000mg of caffeine (about 8 cups of coffee) would be required to exceed the current IOC limit, but it is very important to note that people can metabolize caffeine at very different rates. Differences in metabolism, medications, and certain diseases may significantly alter the rate in which caffeine is cleared from the body. Some athletes have come close to flunking the drug test after ingesting only 350mg. It is wise to consider this before using caffeine as an ergogenic aid.
Google tells me this:
The International Olympic Committee currently lists caffeine as a restricted drug. Urinary levels up to a concentration of12 mg/liter are acceptable, representing casual use. Levels above this are viewed as achieved through a deliberate attempt at doping by the athlete. Approximately 1000mg of caffeine (about 8 cups of coffee) would be required to exceed the current IOC limit, but it is very important to note that people can metabolize caffeine at very different rates. Differences in metabolism, medications, and certain diseases may significantly alter the rate in which caffeine is cleared from the body. Some athletes have come close to flunking the drug test after ingesting only 350mg. It is wise to consider this before using caffeine as an ergogenic aid.
In reply to Pete Houghton:
Sadly a recent article determined that there is no overall gain in taking caffeine as people who regularly consume caffeine start at a lower level and need it to reach the normal level of mental acuity that non caffeine users have normally. So we'd be better off if we stopped using it regularly and just used it when we desperately need it.
> For me, it isn't a performance enhancer, it is the very most basic of on/off switches.
Sadly a recent article determined that there is no overall gain in taking caffeine as people who regularly consume caffeine start at a lower level and need it to reach the normal level of mental acuity that non caffeine users have normally. So we'd be better off if we stopped using it regularly and just used it when we desperately need it.
In reply to AlanLittle:
Though most likely that's because you are (and I am too) addicted to caffeine. If we both went off it entirely, that requirement would probably disappear over time.
Neil
Though most likely that's because you are (and I am too) addicted to caffeine. If we both went off it entirely, that requirement would probably disappear over time.
Neil
In reply to Alun:
An article I read was saying only 1-3 mg/kg: "For a 70 kg athlete this would be around 70 mg before exercise and 70 mg toward the point where you know things get difficult."
http://www.foodforsport.co.za/caffeine-and-performance/
With brewed coffee that could be as little as 1 cup (up to 80mg per cup) before and one after. And on a lightweight athlete like many climbers even less.
> but if you want to get it you need to use supplements, as you would need to drink 10 coffees (or 50 cokes!) to reach the required amount otherwise
An article I read was saying only 1-3 mg/kg: "For a 70 kg athlete this would be around 70 mg before exercise and 70 mg toward the point where you know things get difficult."
http://www.foodforsport.co.za/caffeine-and-performance/
With brewed coffee that could be as little as 1 cup (up to 80mg per cup) before and one after. And on a lightweight athlete like many climbers even less.
In reply to gethin_allen:
Absolutely! It's just a shame that the moment that we "desperately need it" happens to be 0730 every single morning...
Absolutely! It's just a shame that the moment that we "desperately need it" happens to be 0730 every single morning...
1
> I think it's not banned because :
> - it is too easy to take from a variety of other sources
> - the performance benefit is variable person to person and varies by the weight of the person etc.
> - it's not particularly dangerous (at least not compared to other performance enhancing drugs)
> all of which mean that it's an overreaction to ban it outright, and impractical to set limits. So, according the rules, it's not cheating. At least that's what I tell myself when a stop for a coffee on a long ride!
Like it. A good and sensible answer.
In reply to Andy Nisbet:
It interesting reading about the Olympic rules allowing a certain amount. I wonder if this means that many/most athletes experiment with taking the maximum amount they can get away with?
> Some athletes have come close to flunking the drug test after ingesting only 350mg.
It interesting reading about the Olympic rules allowing a certain amount. I wonder if this means that many/most athletes experiment with taking the maximum amount they can get away with?
1
In reply to stp:
Noticed it? Oh yes. I seconded Spiral Stairs on a very tight rope, then one can of coffee with a cheese sandwich and I was soloing Right Wall in hush puppies. Great stuff.
Seriously though - not really.
> ...So has anyone noticed this....
Noticed it? Oh yes. I seconded Spiral Stairs on a very tight rope, then one can of coffee with a cheese sandwich and I was soloing Right Wall in hush puppies. Great stuff.
Seriously though - not really.
In reply to stp:
I can't climb well at all after drinking something with caffeine in it. Did it once, and won't be making that mistake again! I get stressed out and can't flow properly, and climb way below my peak performance.
I can't climb well at all after drinking something with caffeine in it. Did it once, and won't be making that mistake again! I get stressed out and can't flow properly, and climb way below my peak performance.
In reply to stp:
I generally take cocaine before most of my climbing sessions.
I've noticed that my performance is much greater with it as it enables me to pull harder and not get scared! I only use it whilst bouldering as i feel it may be a bit dangerous with roped climbing but a friend of mine has done some impressive headpoint ascents whilst on it.
It's not good ethics but it is fun!!
I generally take cocaine before most of my climbing sessions.
I've noticed that my performance is much greater with it as it enables me to pull harder and not get scared! I only use it whilst bouldering as i feel it may be a bit dangerous with roped climbing but a friend of mine has done some impressive headpoint ascents whilst on it.
It's not good ethics but it is fun!!
In reply to Maestro:
Don't you have trouble with it blowing away in the breeze when you're trying to cut out a line with your Maestrocard?
Don't you have trouble with it blowing away in the breeze when you're trying to cut out a line with your Maestrocard?
In reply to stp:
The trouble is that you could pretty much replace 'caffeine' in the above argument with 'a good diet' and it would still be true. Does that mean that thinking about what you eat to improve your climbing is also cheating?
> Well I think the thought was that free climbing means using no aid. And the effect of the drug seemed roughly equivalent to taking a rest point on one of the bolts. So hence it was cheating, like saying you've climbed a route free when you've taken a rest.
The trouble is that you could pretty much replace 'caffeine' in the above argument with 'a good diet' and it would still be true. Does that mean that thinking about what you eat to improve your climbing is also cheating?
In reply to stp:
Hello Steve!
Caffeine is an effective performance enhancer on long routes, I strongly recommend it.
From http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=24442.0
I run out of gas after 15 hours continuous climbing. Libby Sauter's advice was succinct: "Caffeine!" We took caffeinated sport gels (tasted revolting, no discernible effect), coke* (tasted like coke, helped a little), and double espresso coffee cans (tasted like coffee cake, definitely perked us up).
The coffee cans gave the right lift for someone who is usually a tea drinker. The sugar probably helps too. A pro. like yourself would go cold-turkey for a couple of weeks before a big route but I like my early morning (and lunchtime and afternoon) cuppa.
Like any drug, once you start, you have to keep topping-up. I crashed a couple of hours after the last coffee resulting in visual hallucinations and poor decision-making. Fortunately we were on the descent and could lie down in the dirt and sleep.
Dose in popular drinks: http://www.caffeineinformer.com/the-caffeine-database
*The sticky brown drink, not California cornflakes.
Hello Steve!
Caffeine is an effective performance enhancer on long routes, I strongly recommend it.
From http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=24442.0
I run out of gas after 15 hours continuous climbing. Libby Sauter's advice was succinct: "Caffeine!" We took caffeinated sport gels (tasted revolting, no discernible effect), coke* (tasted like coke, helped a little), and double espresso coffee cans (tasted like coffee cake, definitely perked us up).
The coffee cans gave the right lift for someone who is usually a tea drinker. The sugar probably helps too. A pro. like yourself would go cold-turkey for a couple of weeks before a big route but I like my early morning (and lunchtime and afternoon) cuppa.
Like any drug, once you start, you have to keep topping-up. I crashed a couple of hours after the last coffee resulting in visual hallucinations and poor decision-making. Fortunately we were on the descent and could lie down in the dirt and sleep.
Dose in popular drinks: http://www.caffeineinformer.com/the-caffeine-database
*The sticky brown drink, not California cornflakes.
In reply to stp:
Am i the only climber left in the UK whose caffeine intake is Tea?
does everyone drink Coffee now?
Am i the only climber left in the UK whose caffeine intake is Tea?
does everyone drink Coffee now?
In reply to stp:
Runs and gym workouts, I find a can of Monster energy works well. Been using caffeine for years before training. Now ive quit coffee aswell I get even more of a 'hit' from it.
Most of the 'hit' admittedly is probably sugar. I find also for workouts over 1h30 you start to crash.
Climbing, as other have said, a large dose of caffeine (150mg in Monster energy) makes you jittery. Long easy routes it would probably help (towards tue end if the day) but technical sport routes don't go well with caffeine from my experience.
Runs and gym workouts, I find a can of Monster energy works well. Been using caffeine for years before training. Now ive quit coffee aswell I get even more of a 'hit' from it.
Most of the 'hit' admittedly is probably sugar. I find also for workouts over 1h30 you start to crash.
Climbing, as other have said, a large dose of caffeine (150mg in Monster energy) makes you jittery. Long easy routes it would probably help (towards tue end if the day) but technical sport routes don't go well with caffeine from my experience.
In reply to Andy Nisbet:
That information is from 1995. The 2015 WADA list does not list caffeine as a prohibited substance, but does note
"Bupropion, caffeine, nicotine, phenylephrine, phenylpropanolamine, pipradol and synephrine: These substances are included in the 2015 Monitoring Program, and are not considered Prohibited Substances"
http://list.wada-ama.org/list/s6-stimulants/#caffeine
That information is from 1995. The 2015 WADA list does not list caffeine as a prohibited substance, but does note
"Bupropion, caffeine, nicotine, phenylephrine, phenylpropanolamine, pipradol and synephrine: These substances are included in the 2015 Monitoring Program, and are not considered Prohibited Substances"
http://list.wada-ama.org/list/s6-stimulants/#caffeine
In reply to stp:
I remember Moffat naming his problem at Burbage West Blazing 48 after the strong brand of coffee he drank prior to the first ascent.
I remember Moffat naming his problem at Burbage West Blazing 48 after the strong brand of coffee he drank prior to the first ascent.
In reply to stp: it was lifted from the list in 2004. I remember Daniel Komen getting a ban for it in the 90's - as all he was doing was watching TV all day drinking tea.
In reply to stp:
For me it does work - I don't often have coffee before bouldering but when I am particularly tired I down a double espresso and it does make a noticeable difference on how hard I can train/climb. I never thought about or paid attention to particular aspects like getting pumped etc (in any case I usually just boulder)... Last time I did this was yesterday and I was surprised about the mental difference it made too - I went from not really wanting to be at the wall to wanting to have a go at all the hard (for me) problems etc
For me it does work - I don't often have coffee before bouldering but when I am particularly tired I down a double espresso and it does make a noticeable difference on how hard I can train/climb. I never thought about or paid attention to particular aspects like getting pumped etc (in any case I usually just boulder)... Last time I did this was yesterday and I was surprised about the mental difference it made too - I went from not really wanting to be at the wall to wanting to have a go at all the hard (for me) problems etc
In reply to Pylon King Against Capit@lism:
Tea is definitely my main source, along with chocolate.
> Am i the only climber left in the UK whose caffeine intake is Tea?
Tea is definitely my main source, along with chocolate.
In reply to teapot:
I don't think it was coffee that it's named after and I'm pretty sure he didn't take any prior to climbing anything.
> I remember Moffat naming his problem at Burbage West Blazing 48 after the strong brand of coffee he drank prior to the first ascent.
I don't think it was coffee that it's named after and I'm pretty sure he didn't take any prior to climbing anything.
In reply to stp:
I usually have coffee or something similar before climbing session as I am usually awake over 12 hours before start climbing (I wake up at 5AM and start climbing at 5-6PM usually). I try not to get some coffee and after buying a decaff coffee once, I don't store coffee at home any more - it doesn't taste well. So I try to keep caffeine intake low and use it when I think I need it. I used to drink an entire large moka pot (9 espresso cup) over a day of (usually) strong/strongest coffee. It made my body start shivering and after that, I realized it's not good for my body.
It definitely helps to boost your morale and keeps you going after a long day - I had probably 500mg of caffeine in an hour when I needed to. Ended up walking 17 hours without much tiredness in late evening and still was awake at the bivy. Muscles were sore, but managed to do what I have planned. On the other hand, it does not help with pain as much and on other occasions, my body was refusing to do more than it's capable of.
Lots of people are unaware of side effects of caffeine in both short and long term even when taken in small doses (but regularly). It's an addictive drug and it's not perfect. I would strongly recommend people to research about it and get scared.
In my opinion, that's the last drug (apart from the internet) I should get rid of. Stopped smoking and drinking, have never been big fan of drugs. I like sweets (that's the hard one) and coffee, but will try to keep it as low as possible.
I usually have coffee or something similar before climbing session as I am usually awake over 12 hours before start climbing (I wake up at 5AM and start climbing at 5-6PM usually). I try not to get some coffee and after buying a decaff coffee once, I don't store coffee at home any more - it doesn't taste well. So I try to keep caffeine intake low and use it when I think I need it. I used to drink an entire large moka pot (9 espresso cup) over a day of (usually) strong/strongest coffee. It made my body start shivering and after that, I realized it's not good for my body.
It definitely helps to boost your morale and keeps you going after a long day - I had probably 500mg of caffeine in an hour when I needed to. Ended up walking 17 hours without much tiredness in late evening and still was awake at the bivy. Muscles were sore, but managed to do what I have planned. On the other hand, it does not help with pain as much and on other occasions, my body was refusing to do more than it's capable of.
Lots of people are unaware of side effects of caffeine in both short and long term even when taken in small doses (but regularly). It's an addictive drug and it's not perfect. I would strongly recommend people to research about it and get scared.
In my opinion, that's the last drug (apart from the internet) I should get rid of. Stopped smoking and drinking, have never been big fan of drugs. I like sweets (that's the hard one) and coffee, but will try to keep it as low as possible.
In reply to stp:
That would chime with my own (anecdotal) experience. i'm quite intolerant of caffeine, I don't drink coffee, I drink decaff tea but can feel quite high after two mugs of decaff. I sometimes have a caffeine gel at the end of long hard 100 mile bike ride with lots of climbing. I can only describe it as it feels like I've taken 40 miles out of my legs and (I use a power meter) the power I can output goes up by 5-10%, this could be psychological masking of the pain or some physiological reason or indeed both as I have seen mentioned in articles I've read (dilation of capillaries I've seen mentioned). But whatever, it really makes a very noticeable difference to my performance. I feel totally normal on the bike but as soon as I stop I feel high as a kite and the comedown a couple of hours later is quite spectacular! I also have visual effects from that does of caffeine (brighter colours, and a shimmering effect).
I'm about 66 kg and the gels have 89 mg in them. I will be at the least tolerant end of the spectrum though. If i took 400mg I would probably explode or go mad or both! Most definitely a peformance enhancing and recreational drug.
> An article I read was saying only 1-3 mg/kg: "For a 70 kg athlete this would be around 70 mg before exercise and 70 mg toward the point where you know things get difficult."
> With brewed coffee that could be as little as 1 cup (up to 80mg per cup) before and one after. And on a lightweight athlete like many climbers even less.
That would chime with my own (anecdotal) experience. i'm quite intolerant of caffeine, I don't drink coffee, I drink decaff tea but can feel quite high after two mugs of decaff. I sometimes have a caffeine gel at the end of long hard 100 mile bike ride with lots of climbing. I can only describe it as it feels like I've taken 40 miles out of my legs and (I use a power meter) the power I can output goes up by 5-10%, this could be psychological masking of the pain or some physiological reason or indeed both as I have seen mentioned in articles I've read (dilation of capillaries I've seen mentioned). But whatever, it really makes a very noticeable difference to my performance. I feel totally normal on the bike but as soon as I stop I feel high as a kite and the comedown a couple of hours later is quite spectacular! I also have visual effects from that does of caffeine (brighter colours, and a shimmering effect).
I'm about 66 kg and the gels have 89 mg in them. I will be at the least tolerant end of the spectrum though. If i took 400mg I would probably explode or go mad or both! Most definitely a peformance enhancing and recreational drug.
2
In reply to stp:
Cycling for myself, traditionally pre ride I lounge around at a coffee shop drinking a large americano +6 extra shots and 12 sugars. Yes some waitresses have questioned being legally able to sell such a brew. Very funny
Never had a power metre but so can't quantify power wise, but when you are going up a hill (mountain) the only thing you're thinking about is pumping your legs up and down like pistons. There is nothing else. Thats what I use caffeine for.
Cycling for myself, traditionally pre ride I lounge around at a coffee shop drinking a large americano +6 extra shots and 12 sugars. Yes some waitresses have questioned being legally able to sell such a brew. Very funny
Never had a power metre but so can't quantify power wise, but when you are going up a hill (mountain) the only thing you're thinking about is pumping your legs up and down like pistons. There is nothing else. Thats what I use caffeine for.
Post edited at 12:28
In reply to TimB:
Yes, here in Australia it WAS banned but not now. There was a famous case from the 1988 Olympics of Alex Watson, a fencer, banned because of the caffeine levels in his blood. Iirc he freely admitted to drinking more than a dozen cups of coffee a day.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/08/02/2322263.htm?site=olympics/200...
Personally I like caffeine and use it. I can go without it, but choose not to. Endurance is definitely enhanced, but in my experience from what I can tell there is a mental element to that more than physical. It seems to make it easier to set your mind on mindless repetitive effort, good for mountaineering and polar skiing, and probably cycling too. I find my focus is better and my mind doesn't wander as it usually does.
From my experience and that of others I've found that on a really long bout of effort - adventure racing or polar skiing etc - where you really exhaust your glycogen supplies and are near the edge of reserves and effort, a caffeine hit from a gel has a real impact and is a notable performance enhancer.
However it's also a vasoconstrictor and I've found that if I overdo it, either too many gels or gels + dark chocolate or strong tea etc, in very cold temps it is noticeably harder to keep my fingers warm. Which does not enhance performance at all.
> That information is from 1995. The 2015 WADA list does not list caffeine as a prohibited substance, but does note
Yes, here in Australia it WAS banned but not now. There was a famous case from the 1988 Olympics of Alex Watson, a fencer, banned because of the caffeine levels in his blood. Iirc he freely admitted to drinking more than a dozen cups of coffee a day.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/08/02/2322263.htm?site=olympics/200...
Personally I like caffeine and use it. I can go without it, but choose not to. Endurance is definitely enhanced, but in my experience from what I can tell there is a mental element to that more than physical. It seems to make it easier to set your mind on mindless repetitive effort, good for mountaineering and polar skiing, and probably cycling too. I find my focus is better and my mind doesn't wander as it usually does.
From my experience and that of others I've found that on a really long bout of effort - adventure racing or polar skiing etc - where you really exhaust your glycogen supplies and are near the edge of reserves and effort, a caffeine hit from a gel has a real impact and is a notable performance enhancer.
However it's also a vasoconstrictor and I've found that if I overdo it, either too many gels or gels + dark chocolate or strong tea etc, in very cold temps it is noticeably harder to keep my fingers warm. Which does not enhance performance at all.
Post edited at 13:01
In reply to All:
I have a couple of questions and i'm looking for someone to correct me if i'm wrong.
I was under the impression that caffeine worked in two ways:
1) It is a stimulant which is what gives you the greater awareness.
2) It allows you to retain larger glycogen stores while doing endurance exercise.
Unless doing long days out at reasonable intensities is it not only the stimulant effect on the brain that gives the performance edge whilst climbing?
Would lactic acid build up (pump) not be the more likely failure mechanism before glycogen depletion in most circumstances?
Cheers,
Mark
I have a couple of questions and i'm looking for someone to correct me if i'm wrong.
I was under the impression that caffeine worked in two ways:
1) It is a stimulant which is what gives you the greater awareness.
2) It allows you to retain larger glycogen stores while doing endurance exercise.
Unless doing long days out at reasonable intensities is it not only the stimulant effect on the brain that gives the performance edge whilst climbing?
Would lactic acid build up (pump) not be the more likely failure mechanism before glycogen depletion in most circumstances?
Cheers,
Mark
1
In reply to Pylon King Against Capit@lism:
Another tea drinker here
As for caffeine, it does appear to have a distinct effect on my bowels. Had a can of Red Bull before the start of a MTB race - 6.30am start and a 100 miles, so thought it would get me going. It did, dramatically, but at least I was a fair bit lighter that day. Not sure I'd risk it on a regular basis, and the stuff is vile.
> Am i the only climber left in the UK whose caffeine intake is Tea?
> does everyone drink Coffee now?
Another tea drinker here
As for caffeine, it does appear to have a distinct effect on my bowels. Had a can of Red Bull before the start of a MTB race - 6.30am start and a 100 miles, so thought it would get me going. It did, dramatically, but at least I was a fair bit lighter that day. Not sure I'd risk it on a regular basis, and the stuff is vile.
In reply to Alun:
Caffeine was on the WADA banned list until 2004, but even then it required a massive dose for a positive.
Caffeine was on the WADA banned list until 2004, but even then it required a massive dose for a positive.
In reply to stp:
I guess my memory might be poor. There was definitely some reference to coffee and a boulder problem of Moffats either in an old video or possibly a guide book. I couldn't make up a story like that could I? Was definitlely Blazing 48's.
Sounds like you are sure. So I guess you know Jerry so you could ask him to confirm.
I guess my memory might be poor. There was definitely some reference to coffee and a boulder problem of Moffats either in an old video or possibly a guide book. I couldn't make up a story like that could I? Was definitlely Blazing 48's.
Sounds like you are sure. So I guess you know Jerry so you could ask him to confirm.
In reply to stp:
Coffee can give you the jitters if you have too much.Once the buzz has worn off you can feel more tired than you would normally.If you want to have a short peak in performance,it works,but then you pay for it.Some people can be rather aggressive to others,too.
Coffee can give you the jitters if you have too much.Once the buzz has worn off you can feel more tired than you would normally.If you want to have a short peak in performance,it works,but then you pay for it.Some people can be rather aggressive to others,too.
It appears the original Peak Bouldering Guide supports my memory, although I havn't checked. It also appears that despite this the route name has other origins and the guide book was wrong. So Jerry did not name Blazing 48 after coffee. Case closed.
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