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Can anyone explain the difference between these two climbs, as far as I can tell they are one and the same just named differently in different guides Rockfax - Prudence and BMC Stanage 07 guide - Divine Providence
Prudence (HVS 5b)
No match for climb id:99519
Prudence (HVS 5b)
No match for climb id:99519
In reply to Graeme Hammond:
I think the starts are slightly different but the main parts are the same.
I think the starts are slightly different but the main parts are the same.
In reply to Graeme Hammond:
I never worked it out... yet we are in a world of eliminates on eliminates. Chris's route seems to take an extra move up the crack before heading right on the wall (as per the BMC guide which describes both). I suspect Chris knows the details of why Rockfax ignored even a mention of the earlier line and will be along soon. Would be good to know.
I never worked it out... yet we are in a world of eliminates on eliminates. Chris's route seems to take an extra move up the crack before heading right on the wall (as per the BMC guide which describes both). I suspect Chris knows the details of why Rockfax ignored even a mention of the earlier line and will be along soon. Would be good to know.
In reply to Graeme Hammond:
Blatantly the same route. I'm guessing you've done Providence (E1 5c)? Brilliant slab on tiny crimps, gear at feet - a poor man's Elegy, but still great!
Edit: don't have to guess, top of the logbooks as repeat!
Blatantly the same route. I'm guessing you've done Providence (E1 5c)? Brilliant slab on tiny crimps, gear at feet - a poor man's Elegy, but still great!
Edit: don't have to guess, top of the logbooks as repeat!
Post edited at 11:13
In reply to Offwidth:
yes David Simmonite, Dave Hauton are credited with Divine Providence in 1991 in the BMC guide which the description seems to exactly match Chris Craggs' FRA of Prudence in 1997 in the rockfax guide. The BMC guide says start up the last climb (black hawk traverse) or the lesser grove to its left, which the rockfax uses as the start. Personally the left groove is better and more logical independent start which might be the cause of some of the confusion.
Perhaps just one of those cases where rockfax and the BMC guides use different names for the same climb sometimes due to historical reasons. Hoey's Innominate/Threatened (HVS 5a) is another example.
yes David Simmonite, Dave Hauton are credited with Divine Providence in 1991 in the BMC guide which the description seems to exactly match Chris Craggs' FRA of Prudence in 1997 in the rockfax guide. The BMC guide says start up the last climb (black hawk traverse) or the lesser grove to its left, which the rockfax uses as the start. Personally the left groove is better and more logical independent start which might be the cause of some of the confusion.
Perhaps just one of those cases where rockfax and the BMC guides use different names for the same climb sometimes due to historical reasons. Hoey's Innominate/Threatened (HVS 5a) is another example.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
yes my climbing partner led Prudence (HVS 5b) and being an eliminate after I took the gear out I finished up Providence (E1 5c) and thought it was so good i led it straight after. Thought it was alot steeper and not much like Elegy though or are you thinking of something else?
> Edit: don't have to guess, top of the logbooks as repeat!
yes my climbing partner led Prudence (HVS 5b) and being an eliminate after I took the gear out I finished up Providence (E1 5c) and thought it was so good i led it straight after. Thought it was alot steeper and not much like Elegy though or are you thinking of something else?
In reply to Graeme Hammond:
It's steeper then Elegy, but the way the slab moves continue as you get further from the gear reminded me of that route.
It's steeper then Elegy, but the way the slab moves continue as you get further from the gear reminded me of that route.
In reply to Graeme Hammond:
Ok I apologise as I initially thought you meant Providance as I remember it was left out of PGE (to make Prudence less squeezed?... Chris was the key player on the Stanage script before he left the BMC team, so he can't claim ignorance) .
On the other hand Dave is one of the naughtiest climbers out there for counter-claims and changed route names on pretty unimportant climbs (which is a pain for climbers, especially now we have logbooks online). FA details should be changed (but I'd still prefer to include Dave's ascent as FRA) but when names are long standing its daft ego nonsense to change them and even if only published once for lower grade routes I'd only favour a change if the name given is shite or if the original route took a clearly better line (the original name claimed can go in the FA notes). Prudence may be a squeezed eliminate but the name was published first (even if in error) and should probably stand in my view over Divine Providance. I'd still like to know why Chris would not just delete his FA details and put the route as de-facto traditional (given the solo history on the crag this must be the situation with anything lowish grade in the last 40 years that wasn't excavated).
Ok I apologise as I initially thought you meant Providance as I remember it was left out of PGE (to make Prudence less squeezed?... Chris was the key player on the Stanage script before he left the BMC team, so he can't claim ignorance) .
On the other hand Dave is one of the naughtiest climbers out there for counter-claims and changed route names on pretty unimportant climbs (which is a pain for climbers, especially now we have logbooks online). FA details should be changed (but I'd still prefer to include Dave's ascent as FRA) but when names are long standing its daft ego nonsense to change them and even if only published once for lower grade routes I'd only favour a change if the name given is shite or if the original route took a clearly better line (the original name claimed can go in the FA notes). Prudence may be a squeezed eliminate but the name was published first (even if in error) and should probably stand in my view over Divine Providance. I'd still like to know why Chris would not just delete his FA details and put the route as de-facto traditional (given the solo history on the crag this must be the situation with anything lowish grade in the last 40 years that wasn't excavated).
In reply to Graeme Hammond:
Providence - e1 5b - FA Gary Gibson appeared in BMC guide early 90s.
In the original rock fax it was omitted in favour of Prudence - HVS 5b - FA chris Craggs.
Now I distinctly remember criticising Chris for that on these forums as his route, being about 2 foot to the left on the slab, had less independence than Gary's. I note in the second rock fax, Provience is back and Prudence is dropped. Having done both, they are both worthwhile but very similar eliminates.
And IIRC, Chris said his route had an independent start - but both starts are about 4b/4c and have been climbed long before the 90s.
Where the Divine came in, God only knows.
Providence - e1 5b - FA Gary Gibson appeared in BMC guide early 90s.
In the original rock fax it was omitted in favour of Prudence - HVS 5b - FA chris Craggs.
Now I distinctly remember criticising Chris for that on these forums as his route, being about 2 foot to the left on the slab, had less independence than Gary's. I note in the second rock fax, Provience is back and Prudence is dropped. Having done both, they are both worthwhile but very similar eliminates.
And IIRC, Chris said his route had an independent start - but both starts are about 4b/4c and have been climbed long before the 90s.
Where the Divine came in, God only knows.
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Dave's retro claim for Prudence in the most recent Stanage guide. Prudence and Providence are in the latest EG. Providence is really good climbing on a bit of a non line. Prudence is a rubbish eliminate.
Dave's retro claim for Prudence in the most recent Stanage guide. Prudence and Providence are in the latest EG. Providence is really good climbing on a bit of a non line. Prudence is a rubbish eliminate.
In reply to Offwidth:
I don't think that's true. I'm normally the first to a have a dig about a Chris Craggs (1997) eliminate in a "best of the Peak" guidebook by Chris Craggs (as Britney Spears said...), but in this case that's unfair. I think Prudence is the obvious line, climbing the crack, whereas Providence is an eliminate (which becomes surprisingly independent once embarked upon) with good climbing.
> Providence is really good climbing on a bit of a non line. Prudence is a rubbish eliminate.
I don't think that's true. I'm normally the first to a have a dig about a Chris Craggs (1997) eliminate in a "best of the Peak" guidebook by Chris Craggs (as Britney Spears said...), but in this case that's unfair. I think Prudence is the obvious line, climbing the crack, whereas Providence is an eliminate (which becomes surprisingly independent once embarked upon) with good climbing.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Another much older variation took the crack (Burgess Variation S 4a* but about HS 4b in reality) and could be linked with the variation starts to give a good natural line). The new bit on Prudence was finding difficulty by stepping artificially right out of the crack near its top. I'm all for linking in good climbing lines but this isnt one.
Another much older variation took the crack (Burgess Variation S 4a* but about HS 4b in reality) and could be linked with the variation starts to give a good natural line). The new bit on Prudence was finding difficulty by stepping artificially right out of the crack near its top. I'm all for linking in good climbing lines but this isnt one.
Post edited at 13:19
In reply to Offwidth:
There are only two possible routes there: the crack and the slab. That much is obvious, the rest I'm afraid is beyond trivial nerdery.
There are only two possible routes there: the crack and the slab. That much is obvious, the rest I'm afraid is beyond trivial nerdery.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Not sure, what you are arguing about as I agree: the crack is Burgess Variation, the slab is Providance.
Not sure, what you are arguing about as I agree: the crack is Burgess Variation, the slab is Providance.
In reply to Offwidth:
I wasn't disagreeing with you, I'm just lost as to the details of the apparent FA of the crack.
I'm not convinced that the crack is Burgess Variation: it's a 5b finger crack, not a Severe (or HVD or HS)!
I thought it was left unrecorded for ages and CC stepped in and gave it a name.
I wasn't disagreeing with you, I'm just lost as to the details of the apparent FA of the crack.
I'm not convinced that the crack is Burgess Variation: it's a 5b finger crack, not a Severe (or HVD or HS)!
I thought it was left unrecorded for ages and CC stepped in and gave it a name.
Post edited at 13:29
In reply to Jon Stewart:
I and many other bumblies used that crack on Burgess Variation and it was the line I reclimbed when putting my checking notes in for the BMC Stanage (as HS 4b*).
I and many other bumblies used that crack on Burgess Variation and it was the line I reclimbed when putting my checking notes in for the BMC Stanage (as HS 4b*).
Post edited at 13:48
In reply to Offwidth:
Odd then that the logbooks should show 'Hard HVS, 5b' with 284 votes, then? The herd voting mentality would have this as 'Easy HVS' if it was your so-called HS (it isn't, honestly, it's a proper finger crack with thin feet, totally 5b).
Odd then that the logbooks should show 'Hard HVS, 5b' with 284 votes, then? The herd voting mentality would have this as 'Easy HVS' if it was your so-called HS (it isn't, honestly, it's a proper finger crack with thin feet, totally 5b).
In reply to Jon Stewart:
The line on Prudence leaves the crack part way up on the right which I think is HVS 5b. If you follow up the crack staying on the easiest climbing underneath its HS 4b. There is no contradiction. VS finger crack to me is something like Once Pegged Wall this is much easier.
The line on Prudence leaves the crack part way up on the right which I think is HVS 5b. If you follow up the crack staying on the easiest climbing underneath its HS 4b. There is no contradiction. VS finger crack to me is something like Once Pegged Wall this is much easier.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
This is my current understanding of these lines: http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=259837 (unclaimed photo blagged from the UKC gallery).
When I spotted the line in 1997 I thought it would a decent 'filler' and was unaware of any prior claims.
Chris
PS Excuse the crap topo
This is my current understanding of these lines: http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=259837 (unclaimed photo blagged from the UKC gallery).
When I spotted the line in 1997 I thought it would a decent 'filler' and was unaware of any prior claims.
Chris
PS Excuse the crap topo
In reply to Offwidth:
Given the popularity of the route, I very much doubt all the ascents are of some daft contrived thing where the crux is leaving the crack instead of climbing it. Here's some logbook comments:
Made it to the diagonal crack, moved up that (small cams and good nut) and got my left hand into the high finger jam. Then tried to move left and got pumped and came off. On second attempt, used left finger jam and moved right- far easier for me.
Really enjoyed this, especially as I backed off it a couple of years ago. Found it pretty straightforward today - the crack isn't as good as you hope for your hands but it's all about the footwork.
Last time I tried this I hung around the crux too long fiddling in gear before trying to do the move and ended up having to rest on the rope. Much better this time! Nice offset nut and a cam in the diagonal crack and then a fair reach to a sinker left hand finger jam. Quite a good HVS really, it should have more stars!
Fell on the small crack - wet conditions, definitely a nice and feasible climb when it's dry. Delicate footwork at the crux. well protected.
Sneaky finger-work in the diagonal crack to make sure the correct fingers fitted where the gear wasn't
At top of the diagonal crack, which I barely managed to reach,I inadvertantly finished up Black hawk rather than up the wall. But I presume I did the 5b crux?
Diagonal crack is interesting!
Sufficient evidence that the crack is HVS 5b, and your notes need revising?
Given the popularity of the route, I very much doubt all the ascents are of some daft contrived thing where the crux is leaving the crack instead of climbing it. Here's some logbook comments:
Made it to the diagonal crack, moved up that (small cams and good nut) and got my left hand into the high finger jam. Then tried to move left and got pumped and came off. On second attempt, used left finger jam and moved right- far easier for me.
Really enjoyed this, especially as I backed off it a couple of years ago. Found it pretty straightforward today - the crack isn't as good as you hope for your hands but it's all about the footwork.
Last time I tried this I hung around the crux too long fiddling in gear before trying to do the move and ended up having to rest on the rope. Much better this time! Nice offset nut and a cam in the diagonal crack and then a fair reach to a sinker left hand finger jam. Quite a good HVS really, it should have more stars!
Fell on the small crack - wet conditions, definitely a nice and feasible climb when it's dry. Delicate footwork at the crux. well protected.
Sneaky finger-work in the diagonal crack to make sure the correct fingers fitted where the gear wasn't
At top of the diagonal crack, which I barely managed to reach,I inadvertantly finished up Black hawk rather than up the wall. But I presume I did the 5b crux?
Diagonal crack is interesting!
Sufficient evidence that the crack is HVS 5b, and your notes need revising?
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Totally agree with this, both are good routes.
> I don't think that's true. I'm normally the first to a have a dig about a Chris Craggs (1997) eliminate in a "best of the Peak" guidebook by Chris Craggs (as Britney Spears said...), but in this case that's unfair. I think Prudence is the obvious line, climbing the crack, whereas Providence is an eliminate (which becomes surprisingly independent once embarked upon) with good climbing.
Totally agree with this, both are good routes.
In reply to Offwidth:
Agree the Prudence name should be kept and Divine Providence dropped online and if/when the next BMC guide is published changed in that too. I also don't either understand why chris didn't change the FA details in the latest rockfax guide given it wasn't a really an uknown FRA as it is in the BMC guide.
> Prudence may be a squeezed eliminate but the name was published first (even if in error) and should probably stand in my view over Divine Providance. I'd still like to know why Chris would not just delete his FA details and put the route as de-facto traditional (given the solo history on the crag this must be the situation with anything lowish grade in the last 40 years that wasn't excavated).
Agree the Prudence name should be kept and Divine Providence dropped online and if/when the next BMC guide is published changed in that too. I also don't either understand why chris didn't change the FA details in the latest rockfax guide given it wasn't a really an uknown FRA as it is in the BMC guide.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
I think the topo in your latest guide is clearer Still never sure why guide books keep mentioning the Burgess's Variation as it doesn't contain any different climbing to combining sections of Black Hawk Traverse Left with Black hawk as they chris-cross.
> This is my current understanding of these lines: http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=259837 (unclaimed photo blagged from the UKC gallery).
I think the topo in your latest guide is clearer Still never sure why guide books keep mentioning the Burgess's Variation as it doesn't contain any different climbing to combining sections of Black Hawk Traverse Left with Black hawk as they chris-cross.
In reply to Offwidth:
You are really very wrong on this. Following the crack all the way is definitely 5bish territory, not HS! I did it in mistake for the Burgess variation (which I've subsequently assumed to be a bit of a non-line following the lower, wider crack that most people use for BHLH anyway), and nearly had a little cry when I fell off it. The move up to the break at the end, to avoid stepping into BHLH is not the crux.
You are really very wrong on this. Following the crack all the way is definitely 5bish territory, not HS! I did it in mistake for the Burgess variation (which I've subsequently assumed to be a bit of a non-line following the lower, wider crack that most people use for BHLH anyway), and nearly had a little cry when I fell off it. The move up to the break at the end, to avoid stepping into BHLH is not the crux.
In reply to Offwidth:
The diagonal crack is proper HVS territory (sorry, I know I'm just repeating what others have said) and from memory you don't actually use it on Burgess variation.
I've also climbed into the crimps without using the diagonal crack but using the square cut gap at the bottom. Not sure what to call it yet
The diagonal crack is proper HVS territory (sorry, I know I'm just repeating what others have said) and from memory you don't actually use it on Burgess variation.
I've also climbed into the crimps without using the diagonal crack but using the square cut gap at the bottom. Not sure what to call it yet
In reply to deacondeacon:
How about "Line of the Cragg"
> I've also climbed into the crimps without using the diagonal crack but using the square cut gap at the bottom. Not sure what to call it yet
How about "Line of the Cragg"
3
In reply to victim of mathematics:
HS 4b* is what I thought at the time for staying under the crack. I remember I had to think so there must be a trick of sorts (left hand undercut on a break to the left maybe?) My views on Stanage grades were more conservative pre 2000 but it most certainly wasn't anything like 5b. Using left hand fingers in the crack and moving up and right (as per the line for Prudence in Chris' s topo) I thought was HVS 5b. Burgess Variation most certainly does not traverse then go up the vertical crack, its a diagonal line following "a thin sloping crack" (Severe: 1st series Sheffield Area guide). You can argue the grade but using the diagonal crack to move diagonally up and left IS the right line for Burgess Variation (named that in the Sheffield Stanage Area guide for the first time but obviously the same line as the variation to BHT described in the previous guide as it is also stated to follow the sloping crack).
HS 4b* is what I thought at the time for staying under the crack. I remember I had to think so there must be a trick of sorts (left hand undercut on a break to the left maybe?) My views on Stanage grades were more conservative pre 2000 but it most certainly wasn't anything like 5b. Using left hand fingers in the crack and moving up and right (as per the line for Prudence in Chris' s topo) I thought was HVS 5b. Burgess Variation most certainly does not traverse then go up the vertical crack, its a diagonal line following "a thin sloping crack" (Severe: 1st series Sheffield Area guide). You can argue the grade but using the diagonal crack to move diagonally up and left IS the right line for Burgess Variation (named that in the Sheffield Stanage Area guide for the first time but obviously the same line as the variation to BHT described in the previous guide as it is also stated to follow the sloping crack).
Post edited at 20:29
In reply to Offwidth:
Going with Chris Fitzhugh to recheck Burgess Variation and Mistella tomorrow am if anyone wants to witness me eating humble pie (or the opposite). Probably having fun on the 4c way of Verandah Buttress as well.
Going with Chris Fitzhugh to recheck Burgess Variation and Mistella tomorrow am if anyone wants to witness me eating humble pie (or the opposite). Probably having fun on the 4c way of Verandah Buttress as well.
Post edited at 18:08
In reply to Offwidth:
Should that be "Line of the Cragg" - or 'Urban Myth'?
Mick
> Probably having fun on the 4c way of Verandah Buttress as well.
Should that be "Line of the Cragg" - or 'Urban Myth'?
Mick
In reply to Offwidth:
Any chance you could get your second to video this, since I'm still baffled!
> Probably having fun on the 4c way of Verandah Buttress as well.
Any chance you could get your second to video this, since I'm still baffled!
In reply to Graeme Hammond:
Oh how disappointing. THe UK title said Prudence & Divine Providence and I thought we were going to get discussion of a route next to Divine Providence on Mont Blanc. Instead, yet another Stanage post!!
Oh how disappointing. THe UK title said Prudence & Divine Providence and I thought we were going to get discussion of a route next to Divine Providence on Mont Blanc. Instead, yet another Stanage post!!
In reply to Coel Hellier:
You and me both! Can we have a video and a reading off Grimer's (dodgy?) grading thingummy, preferably read out by that mad scientist woman, her with the big specs?
Mick (always a sucker for a lady in a white lab coat)
You and me both! Can we have a video and a reading off Grimer's (dodgy?) grading thingummy, preferably read out by that mad scientist woman, her with the big specs?
Mick (always a sucker for a lady in a white lab coat)
In reply to jcw:
Well, John, you weren't the only one. Originally I also thought it was about a slightly larger Divine Providence, somewhat further down south... but I didn't like to admit it... but, now you have, I'll own up too!
Mick
Well, John, you weren't the only one. Originally I also thought it was about a slightly larger Divine Providence, somewhat further down south... but I didn't like to admit it... but, now you have, I'll own up too!
Mick
In reply to Coel Hellier:
I was baffled for ages as well. Had to be shown and couldn't believe I'd missed it. Now we are said to be involved in masonic conspiracy I'm not sure vidoes are allowed.
Chris has Burgess Variation as an HVS in his crag notes but history buff that he is, he at least knew the diagonal crack was the line of that name.
I was baffled for ages as well. Had to be shown and couldn't believe I'd missed it. Now we are said to be involved in masonic conspiracy I'm not sure vidoes are allowed.
Chris has Burgess Variation as an HVS in his crag notes but history buff that he is, he at least knew the diagonal crack was the line of that name.
In reply to jcw:
Nothing stopping you starting your own thread. It would be nice to have more banter here on impressive stuff away from popular grit but all too often we get tumbleweed.
Nothing stopping you starting your own thread. It would be nice to have more banter here on impressive stuff away from popular grit but all too often we get tumbleweed.
In reply to Offwidth:
As of yesterday there was a sign at the stanage carpark saying that there is a bird ban in that area
> Going with Chris Fitzhugh to recheck Burgess Variation and Mistella tomorrow am if anyone wants to witness me eating humble pie (or the opposite). Probably having fun on the 4c way of Verandah Buttress as well.
As of yesterday there was a sign at the stanage carpark saying that there is a bird ban in that area
In reply to Graeme Hammond:
Cheers for the heads up, it will wait. Chris phoned this morning to say he was a bit too broken from overdoing things on a long walk: I hope I'm as fit and keen as him when I get older.
Cheers for the heads up, it will wait. Chris phoned this morning to say he was a bit too broken from overdoing things on a long walk: I hope I'm as fit and keen as him when I get older.
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