This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Ellis Butler-Barker has made the first ascent of Iridescence 8c at Anstey's Cove. The line is an old project, which has been bolted for many years and warded off several attempts from budding first ascensionists.Read more
19
19
28
6
23
18
In reply to Alf Owen:
He's wearing a pair of Mammut Realization shorts. They have a built in harness. Really good idea (for sport) but at £130 pretty specialist.
He's wearing a pair of Mammut Realization shorts. They have a built in harness. Really good idea (for sport) but at £130 pretty specialist.
1
In reply to UKC News:
Can anyone enlighten me why this is getting dis likes? Same for Patrick Hills post?
Can anyone enlighten me why this is getting dis likes? Same for Patrick Hills post?
9
In reply to Removed User:
Well £95 with postage
If I was feeling flush I'd get a pair, harnesses are around that price now anyway, but personally I'd only use it indoors and about 5 times on Peak Limestone.
If I was jetting off for Euro sport throughout the year I'd grab a pair in a flash.
Well £95 with postage
If I was feeling flush I'd get a pair, harnesses are around that price now anyway, but personally I'd only use it indoors and about 5 times on Peak Limestone.
If I was jetting off for Euro sport throughout the year I'd grab a pair in a flash.
1
6
In reply to Patrick Hill:
The story says it was done at 10pm with light from a headtorch and a phone (!), not surprising if there is no video.
> Good effort Ellis - any video footage, it will be good to see?
The story says it was done at 10pm with light from a headtorch and a phone (!), not surprising if there is no video.
4
5
In reply to douwe:
Ah Ok thanks. It's sad that an ascent has to be filmed to be verified. As far as I'm concerned if this guy says he's climbed it he's climbed it. If someone's lying about what routes they've climbed that's their loss not mine.
Ah Ok thanks. It's sad that an ascent has to be filmed to be verified. As far as I'm concerned if this guy says he's climbed it he's climbed it. If someone's lying about what routes they've climbed that's their loss not mine.
Post edited at 09:51
29
7
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
And other climbers possible first ascent of a big line?
> Ah Ok thanks. It's sad that an ascent has to be filmed to be verified. As far as I'm concerned if this guy says he's climbed it he's climbed it. If someone's lying about what routes they've climbed that's their loss not mine.
And other climbers possible first ascent of a big line?
6
1
In reply to Macca_7:
It's a shame but given the choice between a culture of 'if it wasn't filmed it doesn't count' or more trust but with the odd ****** claiming an FA they haven't climbed, personally I'd choose the later.
It's a shame but given the choice between a culture of 'if it wasn't filmed it doesn't count' or more trust but with the odd ****** claiming an FA they haven't climbed, personally I'd choose the later.
11
2
In reply to UKC News:
Why would UKC feel the need to verify his claim?
He's a talented climber who's capable of doing it. Show a little faith in your fellow climbers!
Why would UKC feel the need to verify his claim?
He's a talented climber who's capable of doing it. Show a little faith in your fellow climbers!
28
6
In reply to Davros the Psyched:
The problem is there is some speculation around his other ascents.
It's all a bit Rich Simpson. plenty of people have seen him doing hard moves, looking strong etc. but if you're after rock solid proof of full ascents the evidence (whether it be from belayers or videos) is very thin on the ground.
The problem is there is some speculation around his other ascents.
It's all a bit Rich Simpson. plenty of people have seen him doing hard moves, looking strong etc. but if you're after rock solid proof of full ascents the evidence (whether it be from belayers or videos) is very thin on the ground.
16
1
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
Good job those aren't the only options!
You'll note that people with a history of hard climbing are very rarely grilled for evidence. e.g. if Dave Mac says he's put up a new 8B in the highlands I'll almost certainly believe him, as you can go on youtube and watch him climb numerous 8B, 8B+ and 8C problems in full. The issues arises when only very scanty evidence is available around a climbers historical claims.
It's a shame that this kind of thing all gets so personal. If people didn't take it as a personal attack it would be much easier, but then everythign would also be much easier if no one ever made false claims!
> It's a shame but given the choice between a culture of 'if it wasn't filmed it doesn't count' or more trust but with the odd ****** claiming an FA they haven't climbed, personally I'd choose the later.
Good job those aren't the only options!
You'll note that people with a history of hard climbing are very rarely grilled for evidence. e.g. if Dave Mac says he's put up a new 8B in the highlands I'll almost certainly believe him, as you can go on youtube and watch him climb numerous 8B, 8B+ and 8C problems in full. The issues arises when only very scanty evidence is available around a climbers historical claims.
It's a shame that this kind of thing all gets so personal. If people didn't take it as a personal attack it would be much easier, but then everythign would also be much easier if no one ever made false claims!
14
1
In reply to remus:
Sadly, the speculation is started and exacerbated by people who know nothing about the climber or the climbs and turns into a 'credible' accusation.
Personally, I think that unless you have unique insight that causes you to doubt an ascent, it's best not to provide fuel for this depressing fire.
Sadly, the speculation is started and exacerbated by people who know nothing about the climber or the climbs and turns into a 'credible' accusation.
Personally, I think that unless you have unique insight that causes you to doubt an ascent, it's best not to provide fuel for this depressing fire.
8
2
In reply to UKC News:
UKC contacted the belayer, Dom Taylor. He responded as follows:
"Yes I can vouch for Ellis's ascent. He spent Tuesday afternoon working the route but the ascent was done in the dark. We did look at filming for all the reasons mentioned but nothing was showing up on the camera.
Hope this helps,
Dom."
I have added this to the foot of the article.
UKC contacted the belayer, Dom Taylor. He responded as follows:
"Yes I can vouch for Ellis's ascent. He spent Tuesday afternoon working the route but the ascent was done in the dark. We did look at filming for all the reasons mentioned but nothing was showing up on the camera.
Hope this helps,
Dom."
I have added this to the foot of the article.
18
1
Well done Ellis! A cracking effort on a longstanding unclimbed line. Good luck on the other projects down there.
Ted Kingsnorth
Ted Kingsnorth
12
1
9
In reply to remus:
Well the belayer saw it, so it's just a lack of video. Doesn't this really mean he's climbing stuff, rather than putting his life on a GoPro?
> It's all a bit Rich Simpson. plenty of people have seen him doing hard moves, looking strong etc. but if you're after rock solid proof of full ascents the evidence (whether it be from belayers or videos) is very thin on the ground.
Well the belayer saw it, so it's just a lack of video. Doesn't this really mean he's climbing stuff, rather than putting his life on a GoPro?
3
3
In reply to climbwhenready:
It does mean he's climbing stuff and some very impressive things at that.
However has as been done to death, when you are doing these ascents and a sponsored climber at that, then getting video evidence is hardly a major logistical nightmare is it. I'm also sure that his sponsors would also love to have some video footage and photographs of one of their climbers on their latest new route, which judging by the comments above is a bit of a corker!
It does mean he's climbing stuff and some very impressive things at that.
However has as been done to death, when you are doing these ascents and a sponsored climber at that, then getting video evidence is hardly a major logistical nightmare is it. I'm also sure that his sponsors would also love to have some video footage and photographs of one of their climbers on their latest new route, which judging by the comments above is a bit of a corker!
12
2
1
1
Nice one Ellis, glad to see university isn't getting in the way of climbing
Shame about the negativity I can't speak about bouldering as I avoid it like the plague but I've been climbing routes with Ellis since he did his first 7b and I've never had any reason to doubt his ascents on a rope.
Shame about the negativity I can't speak about bouldering as I avoid it like the plague but I've been climbing routes with Ellis since he did his first 7b and I've never had any reason to doubt his ascents on a rope.
7
1
In reply to JackMac:
Two points made on t'other channel (alongside some pointed jokes):
"After everything else that has been written in the past few weeks you really would have thought he would have gone out of his way to ensure there was some evidence this time around. I know it's sad that it has come to that and there is no doubt that he is strong but surely if you were putting up routes at the higher end where people do care and there was doubts over your validity this was a perfect opportunity to get it on film and make a big statement to the doubters. However we get the "it was done in the dark" story which will just add fuel to the fire and give the doubters (of which I am 1) even more fuel to throw on the fire. This makes me even more doubtful if I'm honest and feel he's missed a real opportunity!"
"But also, if Ellis gives even a single crap about whether people believe him or not, then how can he possibly have done this and not got even the worst quality phone footage of something, anything happening at the crag?"
I think he should really consider getting better evidence in future as past situations of this type (where the climber doesn't appear to give a shit what others think) end up dragging on for years.
Two points made on t'other channel (alongside some pointed jokes):
"After everything else that has been written in the past few weeks you really would have thought he would have gone out of his way to ensure there was some evidence this time around. I know it's sad that it has come to that and there is no doubt that he is strong but surely if you were putting up routes at the higher end where people do care and there was doubts over your validity this was a perfect opportunity to get it on film and make a big statement to the doubters. However we get the "it was done in the dark" story which will just add fuel to the fire and give the doubters (of which I am 1) even more fuel to throw on the fire. This makes me even more doubtful if I'm honest and feel he's missed a real opportunity!"
"But also, if Ellis gives even a single crap about whether people believe him or not, then how can he possibly have done this and not got even the worst quality phone footage of something, anything happening at the crag?"
I think he should really consider getting better evidence in future as past situations of this type (where the climber doesn't appear to give a shit what others think) end up dragging on for years.
7
3
In reply to UKC News:
So Ellis is climbing by head torch what can the belayer actually vouch for? That he got to the top and that is about it at a guess, plenty of ways to trick your way up to the chains of a bolted route if nobody is able to see.
So Ellis is climbing by head torch what can the belayer actually vouch for? That he got to the top and that is about it at a guess, plenty of ways to trick your way up to the chains of a bolted route if nobody is able to see.
5
18
In reply to Morriss:
Yeah, you're right. He probably used a bolt-on step ladder between the 2nd and 3rd bolt.
I find this amazing! If you *know* something that gives you reason to doubt his ascent then please share it. But if it's just lazy conspiracy theories about someone you don't know on a climb that's totally beyond you at a crag you've never visited, then keep them to yourself.
Yeah, you're right. He probably used a bolt-on step ladder between the 2nd and 3rd bolt.
I find this amazing! If you *know* something that gives you reason to doubt his ascent then please share it. But if it's just lazy conspiracy theories about someone you don't know on a climb that's totally beyond you at a crag you've never visited, then keep them to yourself.
18
1
In reply to UKC News:
1. Downgraded routes at Ashhole (8a+ boulder Prepossanne Left to 7b+). In total around 8 'boulders/routes' link into this boulder all of which contribute to his Number.1 British ranking on 8a.nu.
2. A camera was given to Ellis in Magic Wood to film his Jimmy Webb-style trip. On the 7th July he did: The Right Hand of Darkness Low Start f8A+, Diesel power sit f8A+ , Diesel Power f8A, Beach: Boulder 27 b f8A , Samurai Tango f7C **, Voigas f8A+ , Enterprise in Space f7C ***, Deep Throat f8B ** . No footage of anything climbed on that day or the rest of the trip. Any witnesses?
3. And his belayer (Dom Taylor) has had a miracle spike in his climbing ability since climbing with Ellis: HVS to E7, V3 to V9, and 7a -8a (Cliff road crag) in 2 months. Whats the secret?
4. Claimed repeat of Fatman 8b in Font, despite being broken and deemed unrepeatable. Doubt was raised on UKB.
This can all be viewed on his UKC logbook and 8a.nu.
1. Downgraded routes at Ashhole (8a+ boulder Prepossanne Left to 7b+). In total around 8 'boulders/routes' link into this boulder all of which contribute to his Number.1 British ranking on 8a.nu.
2. A camera was given to Ellis in Magic Wood to film his Jimmy Webb-style trip. On the 7th July he did: The Right Hand of Darkness Low Start f8A+, Diesel power sit f8A+ , Diesel Power f8A, Beach: Boulder 27 b f8A , Samurai Tango f7C **, Voigas f8A+ , Enterprise in Space f7C ***, Deep Throat f8B ** . No footage of anything climbed on that day or the rest of the trip. Any witnesses?
3. And his belayer (Dom Taylor) has had a miracle spike in his climbing ability since climbing with Ellis: HVS to E7, V3 to V9, and 7a -8a (Cliff road crag) in 2 months. Whats the secret?
4. Claimed repeat of Fatman 8b in Font, despite being broken and deemed unrepeatable. Doubt was raised on UKB.
This can all be viewed on his UKC logbook and 8a.nu.
Post edited at 18:03
31
1
In reply to Davros the Psyched:
I don't think it's the doubt in this ascent per se but the lack of evidence for some of his other claimed ascents.
That's why I said above with all of this flying about why not make doubly certain this time.
I guess you can say why should he? Fair point but as I mentioned above as a sponsored climber I feel he has a little more responsibility to do so.
Just my thoughts and it doesn't bother me either way, I just don't understand why with all of the speculation he doesn't do something about it?
I don't think it's the doubt in this ascent per se but the lack of evidence for some of his other claimed ascents.
That's why I said above with all of this flying about why not make doubly certain this time.
I guess you can say why should he? Fair point but as I mentioned above as a sponsored climber I feel he has a little more responsibility to do so.
Just my thoughts and it doesn't bother me either way, I just don't understand why with all of the speculation he doesn't do something about it?
5
1
10
In reply to Macca_7:
One of the routes at the dewerstone was given a ridiculous (7c) grade on 8a.nu by Ellis. Having repeated this myself I would say more like 6c plus or so. Will Hornby asked him about the repeats of the dewerstone routes which have quite tricky gear. He didn't seem to know much about them. I asked him for a bit more info about one of his new routes when I was notified as moderator and received nothing.
I am not saying he hasn't done the things he says he has but it is strange that with the ease of recording ascents that there isn't much evidence.
As for Dom Taylor's meteoric rise through the grades I am a little bit sceptical. I don't have any particular axe to grind with either of them. I think that he is probably a really talented climber and I hope that he has been really honest as dishonesty makes a bit of a mockery of the genuine achievements of others.
James
One of the routes at the dewerstone was given a ridiculous (7c) grade on 8a.nu by Ellis. Having repeated this myself I would say more like 6c plus or so. Will Hornby asked him about the repeats of the dewerstone routes which have quite tricky gear. He didn't seem to know much about them. I asked him for a bit more info about one of his new routes when I was notified as moderator and received nothing.
I am not saying he hasn't done the things he says he has but it is strange that with the ease of recording ascents that there isn't much evidence.
As for Dom Taylor's meteoric rise through the grades I am a little bit sceptical. I don't have any particular axe to grind with either of them. I think that he is probably a really talented climber and I hope that he has been really honest as dishonesty makes a bit of a mockery of the genuine achievements of others.
James
9
2
I think its a sad day when a climber can't have another redpoint cos its too dark for filming. What if you couldn't get back to the crag for the next session because you got unexpectedly injured? You'd be regretting not having gone for that final burn in the dark. These days plenty of people climb in the dark with lanterns or headtorches due to the constraints of time. I know I do it a fair bit and its possible to climb just as hard as in daylight if you are psyched enough. Whilst it is possible to film in the dark with a back lantern, if you weren't planning on it and have no 1500 lumen portable flashlight beaming onto the crag, nothing will show on the film other than the bobbing headtorch of the climber.
Regarding comments about downgraded routes, its easy to get the grade wrong on first ascents which is why the likes of Chris Sharma didn't used to propose grades for new problems. Look at Brad Pit at Stanage, initially graded 8B in 1995 by Jason Myers, these days its 7C after the discovery of a new sequence. There are other examples.
Regarding comments about downgraded routes, its easy to get the grade wrong on first ascents which is why the likes of Chris Sharma didn't used to propose grades for new problems. Look at Brad Pit at Stanage, initially graded 8B in 1995 by Jason Myers, these days its 7C after the discovery of a new sequence. There are other examples.
4
9
In reply to teddy:
I thought that we practiced mea culpa in this country...it seems not if you're a climber!
I was at Churston last year and Ellis was there. Ironically, he fell off Macca's Route (given Macca's comments here and on UKB) which is a cruxy 7a+. He pulled the rope, did the redpoint and then logged the ascent as a redpoint on his 8a scorecard. I don't think he knew I knew this. He could have easily not logged the ascent at all (or gone for the redpoint).
When I've seen him climb, it's always been very impressive...I have no reason to doubt the voracity of his ascent and think it's really depressing that the trust in climbing seems to have disappeared. Besides which, Ellis did produce video footage of his ascent of Brian and people still questioned his ascent. I imagine he is thinking 'why bother'.
Now I think of it, I've never seen any video footage of Littlejohn climbing Guernica...maybe he was down the pub all along!
I thought that we practiced mea culpa in this country...it seems not if you're a climber!
I was at Churston last year and Ellis was there. Ironically, he fell off Macca's Route (given Macca's comments here and on UKB) which is a cruxy 7a+. He pulled the rope, did the redpoint and then logged the ascent as a redpoint on his 8a scorecard. I don't think he knew I knew this. He could have easily not logged the ascent at all (or gone for the redpoint).
When I've seen him climb, it's always been very impressive...I have no reason to doubt the voracity of his ascent and think it's really depressing that the trust in climbing seems to have disappeared. Besides which, Ellis did produce video footage of his ascent of Brian and people still questioned his ascent. I imagine he is thinking 'why bother'.
Now I think of it, I've never seen any video footage of Littlejohn climbing Guernica...maybe he was down the pub all along!
7
5
In reply to tomrainbow:
Yeah, and I belayed you on the FA of Krushmi Chheda, but I didn't catch it on video so how can I be sure you didn't pull on the draws?
Yeah, and I belayed you on the FA of Krushmi Chheda, but I didn't catch it on video so how can I be sure you didn't pull on the draws?
1
1
In reply to UKC News:
The trust in the climbing scene hasn't gone.
I will (and I assume 99.99% of other climbers) unconditionally believe anyone has climbed what they say they climb........ with the one exception being if that person has been heavily doubted or proved illegitimate in the past and provided no explanation or attempt at proving their honesty. Which is currently the case for Ellis and it was the case for Rich Simpson.
I am not saying that you should ever have to "prove yourself" but if you are a sponsored climber then it is a two sided coin. You get the free gear from sponsors and flashy news articles and in return you should be willing to provide the general public with evidence and info of ascents if they ask or are interested.
Happy to discuss if anyone disagrees which what I have just said.
James Squire
The trust in the climbing scene hasn't gone.
I will (and I assume 99.99% of other climbers) unconditionally believe anyone has climbed what they say they climb........ with the one exception being if that person has been heavily doubted or proved illegitimate in the past and provided no explanation or attempt at proving their honesty. Which is currently the case for Ellis and it was the case for Rich Simpson.
I am not saying that you should ever have to "prove yourself" but if you are a sponsored climber then it is a two sided coin. You get the free gear from sponsors and flashy news articles and in return you should be willing to provide the general public with evidence and info of ascents if they ask or are interested.
Happy to discuss if anyone disagrees which what I have just said.
James Squire
28
In reply to UKC News:
May I also add to my previous comment, there is NO need to have evidence for ALL ascents, no one does. However getting say at least 10% of your hardest stuff on film would be much in Ellis' favor.
May I also add to my previous comment, there is NO need to have evidence for ALL ascents, no one does. However getting say at least 10% of your hardest stuff on film would be much in Ellis' favor.
18
2
In reply to Davros the Psyched:
What...you mean that's not allowed?
> Yeah, and I belayed you on the FA of Krushmi Chheda, but I didn't catch it on video so how can I be sure you didn't pull on the draws?
What...you mean that's not allowed?
1
In reply to Davros the Psyched:
But that's the whole point of this isn't it! With the greatest respect nobody cares about toms new 7c at churston!
Except for me of course and his growing list of sponsors!
He also had you as a belayer who was happy to step forward and say categorically that he had done it, even with him pulling on the draws!
But that's the whole point of this isn't it! With the greatest respect nobody cares about toms new 7c at churston!
Except for me of course and his growing list of sponsors!
He also had you as a belayer who was happy to step forward and say categorically that he had done it, even with him pulling on the draws!
1
1
In reply to UKC News:
Seems a bit harsh to criticise this chap - vid of him climbing Brian
http://tv.thebmc.co.uk/videos/ellis-butler-barker-bags-second-ascent-of-bri...
Doesn't appear to be pulling on draws, shouldn't we just give him benefit of the doubt given evidence such as this vid and surely everyone seeing him be successful at comps etc.
Seems a bit harsh to criticise this chap - vid of him climbing Brian
http://tv.thebmc.co.uk/videos/ellis-butler-barker-bags-second-ascent-of-bri...
Doesn't appear to be pulling on draws, shouldn't we just give him benefit of the doubt given evidence such as this vid and surely everyone seeing him be successful at comps etc.
Post edited at 14:28
3
6
In reply to sdavies141:
Edited footage means nothing in the context of a discussion about proof/witnesses/credibility. Note that this is not me throwing my hat into the camp of either doubter or believer, just pointing out the obvious
Edited footage means nothing in the context of a discussion about proof/witnesses/credibility. Note that this is not me throwing my hat into the camp of either doubter or believer, just pointing out the obvious
12
In reply to sdavies141:
Similar as Alex says above, the video you mention is a nicely produced combination of edits (as stated by EBB https://ellisbutlerbarker.wordpress.com/2015/04/07/video-brian-8c/ ).
**SPOILER**
This is perfectly normal for climbing films, particularly when sport climbing. Getting the actual ascent on film is hard, particularly if the process is over weeks/months requiring the right combinations of conditions/training/luck to all come together for that one successful red point. The film maker/photographer can be excused for wanting to do other things with their life..
However, the flip side is that edited film doesn't constitute proof. Its much easy to make strong links on a project than actually send the entire thing. Similarly, hearsay such as 'x looks strong indoors/at comps/holding positions/doing links does not count as actual proof.
Note, this isn't a dig at Ellis either. Personally, I'm pretty sure he climbed those routes at Antsey's.
Similar as Alex says above, the video you mention is a nicely produced combination of edits (as stated by EBB https://ellisbutlerbarker.wordpress.com/2015/04/07/video-brian-8c/ ).
**SPOILER**
This is perfectly normal for climbing films, particularly when sport climbing. Getting the actual ascent on film is hard, particularly if the process is over weeks/months requiring the right combinations of conditions/training/luck to all come together for that one successful red point. The film maker/photographer can be excused for wanting to do other things with their life..
However, the flip side is that edited film doesn't constitute proof. Its much easy to make strong links on a project than actually send the entire thing. Similarly, hearsay such as 'x looks strong indoors/at comps/holding positions/doing links does not count as actual proof.
Note, this isn't a dig at Ellis either. Personally, I'm pretty sure he climbed those routes at Antsey's.
Post edited at 14:57
In reply to sdavies141:
Sorry but what success in competitions? Who has he beaten? And even then his ascents list make him the best combined climber in the country. Surely such an amazing climber, who climbs such hard problems/routes very regularly could get some raw footage of him getting up something hard.
Sorry but what success in competitions? Who has he beaten? And even then his ascents list make him the best combined climber in the country. Surely such an amazing climber, who climbs such hard problems/routes very regularly could get some raw footage of him getting up something hard.
7
4
You don't have to do well in comps to climb 8c or 8c+, there are plenty of people climbing these grades who have never been near a podium in their lives
8
In reply to teddy:
I realise that but do wonder why supposed success in competition would serve as any sort of proof of what he has done?
This is what is alluded to above.
Not that i know of any good competition results he has had. He seems to have done ok in a recent boulder competition against one very talented kid (who beat him by a distance) and came second to someone who i'm sorry but i have never heard of, a quick look at his scorecard on another popular website seems to suggest he is an ok ish boulderer.
I realise that but do wonder why supposed success in competition would serve as any sort of proof of what he has done?
This is what is alluded to above.
Not that i know of any good competition results he has had. He seems to have done ok in a recent boulder competition against one very talented kid (who beat him by a distance) and came second to someone who i'm sorry but i have never heard of, a quick look at his scorecard on another popular website seems to suggest he is an ok ish boulderer.
2
6
The proof of this ascent is the details confirmed by the witness, Dom Taylor. The background info regarding comps is not directly relevant
2
6
In reply to UKC News:
Yeah, the witness confirmed the ascent.
You can't slander someone because some bloke on the internet told you that some guy he'd never met might have overgraded some boulder problems.
Yeah, the witness confirmed the ascent.
You can't slander someone because some bloke on the internet told you that some guy he'd never met might have overgraded some boulder problems.
4
6
In reply to Davros the Psyched:
The witness has confirmed this ascent.
I'm not slandering anyone and certainly not due to hearsay from someone I have never met. I have spoken to many people who have there doubts. These people are far better than I and have real concerns and doubts about some of his accomplishments.
I personally would like to see this doubt once and for all put to bed. As I'm sure his sponsors would?
For me the easiest way to do this would be some hard evidence and 'not just some bloke on the internet that I've never met telling me that he has done it'.
The witness has confirmed this ascent.
I'm not slandering anyone and certainly not due to hearsay from someone I have never met. I have spoken to many people who have there doubts. These people are far better than I and have real concerns and doubts about some of his accomplishments.
I personally would like to see this doubt once and for all put to bed. As I'm sure his sponsors would?
For me the easiest way to do this would be some hard evidence and 'not just some bloke on the internet that I've never met telling me that he has done it'.
Post edited at 14:28
2
1
In reply to Macca_7:
The rule seems to be that you get slandered unless you're part of the clique. As someone who has had these kind of accusations levelled against them, I think it's shocking that armchair chumps feel they have the right to baselessly attack someone's reputation. The truth tends to come out. You have to be certain if you're publicly questioning people.
The rule seems to be that you get slandered unless you're part of the clique. As someone who has had these kind of accusations levelled against them, I think it's shocking that armchair chumps feel they have the right to baselessly attack someone's reputation. The truth tends to come out. You have to be certain if you're publicly questioning people.
21
18
In reply to Franco Cookson:
I'm not sure that all of the people who are questioning these ascents are chumps? I presume that was aimed at myself and what classes me as a chump and an armchair one at that?
Surely what you have written is the whole point of this debate that you don't have to be certain, that's the problem there are a considerable number of people who aren't certain either way and that's what is causing them to ask for clarification. It's hardly baseless when many questions have been asked, none answered and the hard evidence that many people would expect a sponsored athlete to have has not been provided?
I'm not sure that all of the people who are questioning these ascents are chumps? I presume that was aimed at myself and what classes me as a chump and an armchair one at that?
Surely what you have written is the whole point of this debate that you don't have to be certain, that's the problem there are a considerable number of people who aren't certain either way and that's what is causing them to ask for clarification. It's hardly baseless when many questions have been asked, none answered and the hard evidence that many people would expect a sponsored athlete to have has not been provided?
4
In reply to Franco Cookson:
I'm reluctant to wade in on this, as I don't have any knowledge on the evidence either way, but I don't think it's anything to do with being part of a clique. Plenty of people have a lot of admiration for some of ellis' achievements. All people are saying is that they'd like to see some concrete proof of some of his hard ascents, given that a) he's sponsored b) it's pretty easy to take a video these days c) if you're going to write to a website and tell them about your new route, and enter all of your ascents in an online database, you're hardly shying away from publicity and just out there doing it for yourself.
Therefore, when the odd thing doesn't quite add up, it seems fair that people question that.
The source of most of the doubt isn't armchair internet critics, it's people out there climbing hard.
I'm reluctant to wade in on this, as I don't have any knowledge on the evidence either way, but I don't think it's anything to do with being part of a clique. Plenty of people have a lot of admiration for some of ellis' achievements. All people are saying is that they'd like to see some concrete proof of some of his hard ascents, given that a) he's sponsored b) it's pretty easy to take a video these days c) if you're going to write to a website and tell them about your new route, and enter all of your ascents in an online database, you're hardly shying away from publicity and just out there doing it for yourself.
Therefore, when the odd thing doesn't quite add up, it seems fair that people question that.
The source of most of the doubt isn't armchair internet critics, it's people out there climbing hard.
28
In reply to Franco Cookson:
Yet you had evidence and your main detractor seemed to want a room with you he was so belligerently daft. You also appeared to set out to wind some people up.
Ged's post is spot on. Most people in this situation don't get questioned but those who do nearly always generate their own problems, so the questioning is reasonable when its from a lot of respected hard climbers. With the modern kit available, and photographers willing to travel to record important ascents, there is no excuse for a lack of evidence if you have been questioned and are being very public about hard ascents. This doesn't mean the questioned climbers are complete frauds in their climbing (you need to be strong to be anywhere near such routes).
Yet you had evidence and your main detractor seemed to want a room with you he was so belligerently daft. You also appeared to set out to wind some people up.
Ged's post is spot on. Most people in this situation don't get questioned but those who do nearly always generate their own problems, so the questioning is reasonable when its from a lot of respected hard climbers. With the modern kit available, and photographers willing to travel to record important ascents, there is no excuse for a lack of evidence if you have been questioned and are being very public about hard ascents. This doesn't mean the questioned climbers are complete frauds in their climbing (you need to be strong to be anywhere near such routes).
6
In reply to Offwidth:
How?
Most people in this situation don't get questioned but those who do nearly always generate their own problems,
Again, how? By not giving you the film you feel you are so entitled to ?
photographers willing to travel to record important ascents
Photographers seem to chase money rather than wild lines in my experience.
> You also appeared to set out to wind some people up.
How?
Most people in this situation don't get questioned but those who do nearly always generate their own problems,
Again, how? By not giving you the film you feel you are so entitled to ?
photographers willing to travel to record important ascents
Photographers seem to chase money rather than wild lines in my experience.
1
8
In reply to Franco Cookson:
Is employing a professional photographer the only option then?
> Photographers seem to chase money rather than wild lines in my experience.
Is employing a professional photographer the only option then?
2
In reply to Franco Cookson:
Actually the armchair chumps have pretty good form in calling out real issues. O'connor, Simpson...
> The truth tends to come out.
Actually the armchair chumps have pretty good form in calling out real issues. O'connor, Simpson...
5
In reply to JJL:
The armchair chumps call out nearly everyone, though, so the odd guilty party is bound to get a mention.
The armchair chumps call out nearly everyone, though, so the odd guilty party is bound to get a mention.
5
1
In reply to Franco Cookson:
All of this could have been averted, probably, had Ellis done the sensible thing and engaged in the UKB discussion where doubts were originally raised 6 months ago or whenever it was. As with Simpson, the manner or response to questions has done nothing to help his credibility. For this reason a number of non-armchair climbers are now highly sceptical of anything he claims, and will be irrespective of belayer testimony unless they know the belayer/spotter or know someone who can vouch for them. This is an absurd situation but is what happens when you respond poorly to questions.
Of course he's well within his rights not to respond, and no-one is 'entitled' to video of anything, but if you claim hard stuff publicly then be prepared to at least give a list of witnesses and engage in discussion on whether you started 8B boulders, unrepeated since hold breakage, in the right place or not. If people don't wish to do this then they should either keep everything to themself and their mates (not scorecards and news items) or be prepared to be doubted.
I'd be interested to know which clique you have to be part of to not get questioned, since it seems to include 95% of climbers in the country. Perhaps by clique you mean "extended uk climbing scene". Although given that some of the most high profile cases of doubting have been the likes of Rich Simpson and Ben Heason (both very much part of the climbing scene), clearly being part of the scene doesn't actually mean people won't question you should they wish to. This shit's all in your head.
Alex
> Most people in this situation don't get questioned but those who do nearly always generate their own problems,
> Again, how? By not giving you the film you feel you are so entitled to ?
All of this could have been averted, probably, had Ellis done the sensible thing and engaged in the UKB discussion where doubts were originally raised 6 months ago or whenever it was. As with Simpson, the manner or response to questions has done nothing to help his credibility. For this reason a number of non-armchair climbers are now highly sceptical of anything he claims, and will be irrespective of belayer testimony unless they know the belayer/spotter or know someone who can vouch for them. This is an absurd situation but is what happens when you respond poorly to questions.
Of course he's well within his rights not to respond, and no-one is 'entitled' to video of anything, but if you claim hard stuff publicly then be prepared to at least give a list of witnesses and engage in discussion on whether you started 8B boulders, unrepeated since hold breakage, in the right place or not. If people don't wish to do this then they should either keep everything to themself and their mates (not scorecards and news items) or be prepared to be doubted.
I'd be interested to know which clique you have to be part of to not get questioned, since it seems to include 95% of climbers in the country. Perhaps by clique you mean "extended uk climbing scene". Although given that some of the most high profile cases of doubting have been the likes of Rich Simpson and Ben Heason (both very much part of the climbing scene), clearly being part of the scene doesn't actually mean people won't question you should they wish to. This shit's all in your head.
Alex
Post edited at 09:53
29
In reply to UKC News:
So, Ellis is making up ascents to get recognised as he's in the thrall of his sponsors.
But hang on, he hasn't produced enough videos for his sponsors?
How strange of him. Clearly the man's a liar and cad. Now where did we put the UKC ducking stool?
So, Ellis is making up ascents to get recognised as he's in the thrall of his sponsors.
But hang on, he hasn't produced enough videos for his sponsors?
How strange of him. Clearly the man's a liar and cad. Now where did we put the UKC ducking stool?
3
5
In reply to GrahamD:
No they don't.
> The armchair chumps call out nearly everyone, though, so the odd guilty party is bound to get a mention.
No they don't.
4
1
In reply to Franco Cookson:
How?
Well you implied I'm an armchair chump for starters!
I don't feel I'm entitled to anything. Please see abarro81's post for a repeat of what we have all been suggesting from the start.
Cheers
> You also appeared to set out to wind some people up.
How?
Well you implied I'm an armchair chump for starters!
I don't feel I'm entitled to anything. Please see abarro81's post for a repeat of what we have all been suggesting from the start.
Cheers
2
1
In reply to abarro81:
This is the part I have a problem with.
You make a valid point here.
My main worry is that the numbers of liars uncovered is far less than the number of innocent people (like myself) accused unfairly.
> For this reason a number of non-armchair climbers are now highly sceptical of anything he claims, and will be irrespective of belayer testimony unless they know the belayer/spotter or know someone who can vouch for them. This is an absurd situation but is what happens when you respond poorly to questions.
This is the part I have a problem with.
> I'd be interested to know which clique you have to be part of to not get questioned, since it seems to include 95% of climbers in the country. Perhaps by clique you mean "extended uk climbing scene". Although given that some of the most high profile cases of doubting have been the likes of Rich Simpson and Ben Heason (both very much part of the climbing scene), clearly being part of the scene doesn't actually mean people won't question you should they wish to. This shit's all in your head.
You make a valid point here.
My main worry is that the numbers of liars uncovered is far less than the number of innocent people (like myself) accused unfairly.
> Alex
1
2
In reply to Franco Cookson:
Forgive me for not knowing the ins and outs of your tale of woe, but weren't you questioned on the grades you'd given to your routes rather than wether you'd done them or not.
I think Alex hits the nail on the head with these headlines (which I've paraphrased)
If you're going to make a fairly public show of your ascents, by writing to news websites and recording them on public databases, it's fair for people to want to see proof SOMETIMES (ie if you e got a solid track record of videoed hard ascents, such as Dave Mac, then it's more of a fair assumption that people will take your word for it.
If you're receiving a slice of the fairly small sponsorship pie, it's fair that people are going to want to see some proof now and again.
Some of the most well known cases of people being "caught out" were heavily involved in "scenes", so it's probably untrue to say tha you have to be in a clique to not be questioned.
I don't think anyone is even necessarily saying that Ellis didn't di this particularly route. Just that it might be a good idea to start collecting proof in future.
Forgive me for not knowing the ins and outs of your tale of woe, but weren't you questioned on the grades you'd given to your routes rather than wether you'd done them or not.
I think Alex hits the nail on the head with these headlines (which I've paraphrased)
If you're going to make a fairly public show of your ascents, by writing to news websites and recording them on public databases, it's fair for people to want to see proof SOMETIMES (ie if you e got a solid track record of videoed hard ascents, such as Dave Mac, then it's more of a fair assumption that people will take your word for it.
If you're receiving a slice of the fairly small sponsorship pie, it's fair that people are going to want to see some proof now and again.
Some of the most well known cases of people being "caught out" were heavily involved in "scenes", so it's probably untrue to say tha you have to be in a clique to not be questioned.
I don't think anyone is even necessarily saying that Ellis didn't di this particularly route. Just that it might be a good idea to start collecting proof in future.
5
1
In reply to Franco Cookson:
Franco how the hell can you qualify that last statement? This is nothing like Andy getting a bee in his bonnet about your routes
Guy
Franco how the hell can you qualify that last statement? This is nothing like Andy getting a bee in his bonnet about your routes
Guy
Post edited at 20:04
3
In reply to GDes:
Nope. I was accused of not having done them. Luckily I knew Jack Geldard enough for him to vouch for the ascent. What if I hadn't?
I agree with this. I think the problem lies with when people aren't reporting their ascen ts and they're still subject to the same Level of scrutiny.
Agreed
Another example of how those born into climbing circles don't have to do anything extra and those of us who weren't are doubted till we provide proof. Load of rubbish.
> Forgive me for not knowing the ins and outs of your tale of woe, but weren't you questioned on the grades you'd given to your routes rather than wether you'd done them or not.
Nope. I was accused of not having done them. Luckily I knew Jack Geldard enough for him to vouch for the ascent. What if I hadn't?
> If you're going to make a fairly public show of your ascents, by writing to news websites and recording them on public databases, it's fair for people to want to see proof SOMETIMES (ie if you e got a solid track record of videoed hard ascents, such as Dave Mac, then it's more of a fair assumption that people will take your word for it.
I agree with this. I think the problem lies with when people aren't reporting their ascen ts and they're still subject to the same Level of scrutiny.
> If you're receiving a slice of the fairly small sponsorship pie, it's fair that people are going to want to see some proof now and again.
Agreed
> I don't think anyone is even necessarily saying that Ellis didn't di this particularly route. Just that it might be a good idea to start collecting proof in future.
Another example of how those born into climbing circles don't have to do anything extra and those of us who weren't are doubted till we provide proof. Load of rubbish.
3
In reply to Franco Cookson:
Odd phrase Franco. Given how small the climbing scene was a generation ago, how many of today's prominent climbers are children of climbers? In the UK I can think offhand of Caff, Ryan Pasquill, Hazel, the late Will Perrin. (And not in the UK, Adam Ondra). Are there really that many others? Or do you actually mean something else?
> Another example of how those born into climbing circles don't have to do anything extra and those of us who weren't are doubted till we provide proof.
Odd phrase Franco. Given how small the climbing scene was a generation ago, how many of today's prominent climbers are children of climbers? In the UK I can think offhand of Caff, Ryan Pasquill, Hazel, the late Will Perrin. (And not in the UK, Adam Ondra). Are there really that many others? Or do you actually mean something else?
In reply to Franco Cookson:
Franco, if you are referring to my criticism of your ascents, lets get it right. I have never accused you of not climbing them, I just questioned what fantasy land you were in when you came up with the grades.
Andy F
> Nope. I was accused of not having done them. Luckily I knew Jack Geldard enough for him to vouch for the ascent. What if I hadn't?
Franco, if you are referring to my criticism of your ascents, lets get it right. I have never accused you of not climbing them, I just questioned what fantasy land you were in when you came up with the grades.
Andy F
4
6
In reply to AlanLittle:
Think of it another way. Name some prominent trad climbers who weren't born with climbing connections. I can only think of Macleod..
To Andy: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=591606&v=1#x7815800
At least have the courage to stick to your guns Andy:
"ƒU andy farnell - ƒQ on 03 Jul 2014„r
In reply to FactorXXX : Actually, it's not. According to his blog he soloed it with no one around. Very believable in this age of phones, cameras, videos etc.
Andy F
P.s. That is definitely my final word. Nothing, else needs to be said. "
> Odd phrase Franco. Given how small the climbing scene was a generation ago, how many of today's prominent climbers are children of climbers? In the UK I can think offhand of Caff, Ryan Pasquill, Hazel, the late Will Perrin. (And not in the UK, Adam Ondra). Are there really that many others? Or do you actually mean something else?
Think of it another way. Name some prominent trad climbers who weren't born with climbing connections. I can only think of Macleod..
To Andy: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=591606&v=1#x7815800
At least have the courage to stick to your guns Andy:
"ƒU andy farnell - ƒQ on 03 Jul 2014„r
In reply to FactorXXX : Actually, it's not. According to his blog he soloed it with no one around. Very believable in this age of phones, cameras, videos etc.
Andy F
P.s. That is definitely my final word. Nothing, else needs to be said. "
1
In reply to AlanLittle:
I think the mentality I really dislike is this:
"ƒU ericinbristol - ƒQ on 04 Jul 2014„r
In reply to Jack Geldard - UKC Chief Editor:
Good to have it confirmed. The air of doubt was Franco-generated."
As if, if you don't release a video of you doing it, you should never have reported something as a new route. Maybe you want the experience to be personal? Maybe you don't want to share your beta with other people? Maybe you just don't care whether other people don't believe you, but don't want to be publically slandered.
I see blogs as fairly private things. I see updating route databases and guidebooks as a bit of a duty if you're doing new routes. I don't think that is necessarily putting yourself out there and don't think unsponsored, low-key climbers need doubting.
I think the mentality I really dislike is this:
"ƒU ericinbristol - ƒQ on 04 Jul 2014„r
In reply to Jack Geldard - UKC Chief Editor:
Good to have it confirmed. The air of doubt was Franco-generated."
As if, if you don't release a video of you doing it, you should never have reported something as a new route. Maybe you want the experience to be personal? Maybe you don't want to share your beta with other people? Maybe you just don't care whether other people don't believe you, but don't want to be publically slandered.
I see blogs as fairly private things. I see updating route databases and guidebooks as a bit of a duty if you're doing new routes. I don't think that is necessarily putting yourself out there and don't think unsponsored, low-key climbers need doubting.
1
1
In reply to Franco Cookson:
Only Macleod? I bet there are loads - Oli Groundfall, Emmett? Gresham? (his dad took up climbing at the same time as him), same for Leo Houlding... just off the top of my head those few bet there are loads more.
With regards to the whole proof thing: I sort of don't really give that much of a toss. It in no way changes my climbing whether Ellis has climbed this thing or not or what the exact grades of your routes are. To people going to try your routes, its unlikely they'll be climbing them properly (onsight :p) so they'll soon know whether the route is too difficult or not and maybe they'll have made a wasted journey.
I dont think you lied about your ascents and I dont reckon you exaggerated the grade much. Ellis does sound suspicious I have to say... there has been a lot of query around his ascents. Mostly I just think its a shame people feel the need to lie. I hope Ellis hasn't been though he seems to be one of many very talented climbers coming from the South West which is great.
Only Macleod? I bet there are loads - Oli Groundfall, Emmett? Gresham? (his dad took up climbing at the same time as him), same for Leo Houlding... just off the top of my head those few bet there are loads more.
With regards to the whole proof thing: I sort of don't really give that much of a toss. It in no way changes my climbing whether Ellis has climbed this thing or not or what the exact grades of your routes are. To people going to try your routes, its unlikely they'll be climbing them properly (onsight :p) so they'll soon know whether the route is too difficult or not and maybe they'll have made a wasted journey.
I dont think you lied about your ascents and I dont reckon you exaggerated the grade much. Ellis does sound suspicious I have to say... there has been a lot of query around his ascents. Mostly I just think its a shame people feel the need to lie. I hope Ellis hasn't been though he seems to be one of many very talented climbers coming from the South West which is great.
Post edited at 08:45
1
In reply to Franco Cookson:
You seem very keen on portraying yourself as a renegade in the outside of some insular 'scene'. As I said above, this shit is all in your head, and those questioned are as often as not from part of a 'scene' e.g. Simpson, Scott Maclellan, Ewan McFadden.
Ignoring your need for trad climbers, most hard sport and boulderers have not been 'born into climbing circles' and do not get questioned. Why? Because a variety of reputable people see them doing stuff, they've got occasional vids, shit doesnt sound well dodgy etc.
You seem very keen on portraying yourself as a renegade in the outside of some insular 'scene'. As I said above, this shit is all in your head, and those questioned are as often as not from part of a 'scene' e.g. Simpson, Scott Maclellan, Ewan McFadden.
Ignoring your need for trad climbers, most hard sport and boulderers have not been 'born into climbing circles' and do not get questioned. Why? Because a variety of reputable people see them doing stuff, they've got occasional vids, shit doesnt sound well dodgy etc.
9
In reply to Franco Cookson:
I haven't lived in the UK in this century and I'm not intimately familiar with the biographies of everybody I read about. Tom Randall, Steve McClure (has been known to place the odd wire), Calum Muskett, Emma Twyford, James Pearson, Tim Emmett? But if you tell me all these people are in fact sons/daughters of climbers, I'll believe you.
It's an interesting hypothesis. Access from an early age to a certain set of skills and/or a certain parental attitude to accepting and managing risk? Beethoven and Mozart were both sons of musicians.
> Think of it another way. Name some prominent trad climbers who weren't born with climbing connections. I can only think of Macleod..
I haven't lived in the UK in this century and I'm not intimately familiar with the biographies of everybody I read about. Tom Randall, Steve McClure (has been known to place the odd wire), Calum Muskett, Emma Twyford, James Pearson, Tim Emmett? But if you tell me all these people are in fact sons/daughters of climbers, I'll believe you.
It's an interesting hypothesis. Access from an early age to a certain set of skills and/or a certain parental attitude to accepting and managing risk? Beethoven and Mozart were both sons of musicians.
1
In reply to AlanLittle:
> I haven't lived in the UK in this century and I'm not intimately familiar with the biographies of everybody I read about. Tom Randall, Steve McClure (has been known to place the odd wire), Calum Muskett, Emma Twyford, James Pearson, Tim Emmett?
I think you have forgotten the name Franco Cookson really wants you to list, a poor boy from the wrong side of the tracks, who despite the naysayers and the those trying to put him down fought through to become one of the greats.> It's an interesting hypothesis. Access from an early age to a certain set of skills and/or a certain parental attitude to accepting and managing risk? Beethoven and Mozart were both sons of musicians.
It happens in everything, it was being discussed with regard to F1 on the radio last night. I guess the reasons are many fold but in some things it'll be connections (not so much in climbing which, these days, is more accessible than ever) but more importantly in attitude. If you are the off spring of someone who has reached a level in something you see that as normal and set sights higher, it applies to social mobility equally.
8
In reply to Franco Cookson:
I posted these comments
"You have footage of the ascent but are refusing to broadcast it as there isn't any need but some mystery people have seen it. You are doing yourself no favours here. Ever heard of Rich Simpson?"
"Good to have it confirmed. The air of doubt was Franco-generated."
"Someone claimed a big ascent and said they had footage but would wouldn't show it to a named credible person. I commented that, in the wake of Rich Simpson doing the same and being called out as a fraud, it didn't help his case. Jack Geldard then says he saw it and I say that's good enough for me"
and I stand by them and have not seen a reasonable response from you. I don't like whatever mentality underlies your approach.
I'd add this from Toby A
"I think Franco puts quite a lot of thought and his obvious talent into crafting his own image, and generating controversy is one part of that! I don't doubt he did the climb, but he is probably quite happy if some people do."
You may just be a bit odd, which is cool with me as everyone is a bit odd in their own way. But you come across as a deliberately self-promoting controversialist, which some find entertaining. I don't but it's your call.
I posted these comments
"You have footage of the ascent but are refusing to broadcast it as there isn't any need but some mystery people have seen it. You are doing yourself no favours here. Ever heard of Rich Simpson?"
"Good to have it confirmed. The air of doubt was Franco-generated."
"Someone claimed a big ascent and said they had footage but would wouldn't show it to a named credible person. I commented that, in the wake of Rich Simpson doing the same and being called out as a fraud, it didn't help his case. Jack Geldard then says he saw it and I say that's good enough for me"
and I stand by them and have not seen a reasonable response from you. I don't like whatever mentality underlies your approach.
I'd add this from Toby A
"I think Franco puts quite a lot of thought and his obvious talent into crafting his own image, and generating controversy is one part of that! I don't doubt he did the climb, but he is probably quite happy if some people do."
You may just be a bit odd, which is cool with me as everyone is a bit odd in their own way. But you come across as a deliberately self-promoting controversialist, which some find entertaining. I don't but it's your call.
Post edited at 10:29
14
In reply to Barrington:
Are you suggesting Dave Birkett wasn't born into a family with climbing connections?
> Ever heard of the Lake District & the name Birkett Franco?
Are you suggesting Dave Birkett wasn't born into a family with climbing connections?
1
In reply to Willi Crater:
No, just that Franco might not have heard of Dave & Bill because if he was thinking of "prominent trad climbers", then Dave ought to have been right up there. As another OP has suggested; perhaps he deliberately cultivates this agent provocateur image?
No, just that Franco might not have heard of Dave & Bill because if he was thinking of "prominent trad climbers", then Dave ought to have been right up there. As another OP has suggested; perhaps he deliberately cultivates this agent provocateur image?
3
RightIn reply to Barrington:
Right you are then!
> No, just that Franco might not have heard of Dave & Bill because if he was thinking of "prominent trad climbers", then Dave ought to have been right up there. As another OP has suggested; perhaps he deliberately cultivates this agent provocateur image?
Right you are then!
In reply to Tyler:
Currently it's looking like that's more or less true - except for I didn't "fight through to become one of the greats", I "fought and lost because apparently I wasn't related or introduced to the right people". The more this thread goes on, the more my point is proved. The unwillingness for the UK climbing community to accept anything detached from the norm is startling.
So you agree?
My whole argument is that people should stop making this so personal. I couldn't have been more low key when I was slandered. Ellis is slightly less low key, but people seem pretty eager to stick the knife in.
If we can keep it impersonal for a moment, it's a real issue in British climbing that people growing up without climbing connections find it so hard to be accepted in our community. Whether it's having the right advice or actually being introduced to people I don't know, but I feel we should all be a little bit kinder to one another - especially with those who are fairly new to it.
> I think you have forgotten the name Franco Cookson really wants you to list, a poor boy from the wrong side of the tracks, who despite the naysayers and the those trying to put him down fought through to become one of the greats.
Currently it's looking like that's more or less true - except for I didn't "fight through to become one of the greats", I "fought and lost because apparently I wasn't related or introduced to the right people". The more this thread goes on, the more my point is proved. The unwillingness for the UK climbing community to accept anything detached from the norm is startling.
> It happens in everything, it was being discussed with regard to F1 on the radio last night. I guess the reasons are many fold but in some things it'll be connections (not so much in climbing which, these days, is more accessible than ever) but more importantly in attitude. If you are the off spring of someone who has reached a level in something you see that as normal and set sights higher, it applies to social mobility equally.
So you agree?
My whole argument is that people should stop making this so personal. I couldn't have been more low key when I was slandered. Ellis is slightly less low key, but people seem pretty eager to stick the knife in.
If we can keep it impersonal for a moment, it's a real issue in British climbing that people growing up without climbing connections find it so hard to be accepted in our community. Whether it's having the right advice or actually being introduced to people I don't know, but I feel we should all be a little bit kinder to one another - especially with those who are fairly new to it.
1
7
In reply to Franco Cookson:
Is it f*ck.
> it's a real issue in British climbing that people growing up without climbing connections find it so hard to be accepted in our community
Is it f*ck.
37
In reply to UKC News:
I'm not sure the old adage "Any publicity is good publicity" applies in this case. If I was Ellis or one of his sponsors I wouldn't want a repeat of this so hopefully next time he does something worthy of reporting he'll make the effort to get it on film. Otherwise it will only add to the increasing speculation.
I'm not sure the old adage "Any publicity is good publicity" applies in this case. If I was Ellis or one of his sponsors I wouldn't want a repeat of this so hopefully next time he does something worthy of reporting he'll make the effort to get it on film. Otherwise it will only add to the increasing speculation.
1
In reply to Franco Cookson:
Come on Franco, that really is bollocks.
> it's a real issue in British climbing that people growing up without climbing connections find it so hard to be accepted in our community.
Come on Franco, that really is bollocks.
19
In reply to Franco Cookson:
Can I be first to call troll? I'm not sure what you're trying to add to the current debate.
Unless I've missed something, all of the furore around your ascents was the grade rather than if you had actually done the thing. If anything you're quite a good example of how to combat this speculation, you were questioned on the validity of your ascent, you provided evidence to a respected member of the climbing community, the matter was then closed.
Had Ellis done the same as above, this entire thread would be 5-6 posts long consisting of 'Well done Ellis'.
As for the climbing connections thing.. well see the above post.
Can I be first to call troll? I'm not sure what you're trying to add to the current debate.
Unless I've missed something, all of the furore around your ascents was the grade rather than if you had actually done the thing. If anything you're quite a good example of how to combat this speculation, you were questioned on the validity of your ascent, you provided evidence to a respected member of the climbing community, the matter was then closed.
Had Ellis done the same as above, this entire thread would be 5-6 posts long consisting of 'Well done Ellis'.
As for the climbing connections thing.. well see the above post.
Post edited at 18:07
2
In reply to Franco Cookson:
>
Always followed you Franco. Love your attitude on here. love the way you got out and did stuff on The Moors. hard climbing, ggod style. Always open about stuff.
But you're living on a different planet if you believe this.
Wally
>
> If we can keep it impersonal for a moment, it's a real issue in British climbing that people growing up without climbing connections find it so hard to be accepted in our community.
Always followed you Franco. Love your attitude on here. love the way you got out and did stuff on The Moors. hard climbing, ggod style. Always open about stuff.
But you're living on a different planet if you believe this.
Wally
10
In reply to Franco Cookson:
For a young un you have failed to grasp how this new fangled interweb thingy works. You want a diary for your 'fairly private things'.
> I see blogs as fairly private things.
For a young un you have failed to grasp how this new fangled interweb thingy works. You want a diary for your 'fairly private things'.
13
In reply to ericinbristol:
Aye another one where Franco has lost it. A private online blog. I might try it.
Wally
Aye another one where Franco has lost it. A private online blog. I might try it.
Wally
3
In reply to Franco Cookson: So low key you put your ascents on the most widely read climbing website IN THE WORLD. Why would someone do that if didn't want their new routes and grades open for all to see?
Low key, yeah, right.
And I'm the Pope.
Andy F
Low key, yeah, right.
And I'm the Pope.
Andy F
8
4
In reply to Franco Cookson:
That's not exactly the facts is it Franco - as you well know.
You claimed a grade of E10 for a new route - a grade only a handful of well known high profile climbers had climbed, and of which only a handful of other top routes were graded - despite having no track record outside the North York Moors (hardly a well known, well visted or well audited area) of climbing anything harder than E6.
It's hardly surprising therefore that eyebrows and scepticism were raised regarding the grade?
It was nothing whatsoever to do with you not being related to Johnny Dawes or not hanging about in the Moon or Petes Eats.
> Currently it's looking like that's more or less true - except for I didn't "fight through to become one of the greats", I "fought and lost because apparently I wasn't related or introduced to the right people".
That's not exactly the facts is it Franco - as you well know.
You claimed a grade of E10 for a new route - a grade only a handful of well known high profile climbers had climbed, and of which only a handful of other top routes were graded - despite having no track record outside the North York Moors (hardly a well known, well visted or well audited area) of climbing anything harder than E6.
It's hardly surprising therefore that eyebrows and scepticism were raised regarding the grade?
It was nothing whatsoever to do with you not being related to Johnny Dawes or not hanging about in the Moon or Petes Eats.
11
2
In reply to Morriss:
In reply to teddy:
You're both right. Success in competitions perhaps doesnt add towards any proof of outdoor ascents. However, Ellis has been caught cheating in competitions. Surely that's substantial for anyone to wanting to trust the validity of other aspects of his activity?
> I realise that but do wonder why supposed success in competition would serve as any sort of proof of what he has done?
In reply to teddy:
> The background info regarding comps is not directly relevant
You're both right. Success in competitions perhaps doesnt add towards any proof of outdoor ascents. However, Ellis has been caught cheating in competitions. Surely that's substantial for anyone to wanting to trust the validity of other aspects of his activity?
1
11
In reply to climbing-alias:
I'd be pretty careful of that sort of comment, so far Ellis has been asked by members of the climbing community who are well known/are not hiding their identity, to provide some proof of his ascents. This has been a fair and reasonable request.
In turn, I think its fair to ask you to either a) provide definitive proof of Ellis cheating in comps e.g. witnesses/judges ect or b) make your identity known. Otherwise, I think that sort of anonymous mud slinging is pretty unacceptable.
I'd be pretty careful of that sort of comment, so far Ellis has been asked by members of the climbing community who are well known/are not hiding their identity, to provide some proof of his ascents. This has been a fair and reasonable request.
In turn, I think its fair to ask you to either a) provide definitive proof of Ellis cheating in comps e.g. witnesses/judges ect or b) make your identity known. Otherwise, I think that sort of anonymous mud slinging is pretty unacceptable.
Post edited at 19:34
22
In reply to climbing-alias:
What did he do?
> However, Ellis has been caught cheating in competitions. Surely that's substantial for anyone to wanting to trust the validity of other aspects of his activity?
What did he do?
3
1
5
In reply to jon:
Fairly easily in the self regulated comps. Mark your own sheet 10 points for 1st go, 7 2nd, 5 3rd, 3 4th 1 anything after. That sort of thing! You see it a lot, foot pops on a first try, 'well that obviously doesn't count' do it next go still give yourself 10!
Fairly easily in the self regulated comps. Mark your own sheet 10 points for 1st go, 7 2nd, 5 3rd, 3 4th 1 anything after. That sort of thing! You see it a lot, foot pops on a first try, 'well that obviously doesn't count' do it next go still give yourself 10!
4
6
In reply to andy farnell:
No I didn't. It wasn't reported anywhere, at all. It looks like I have the unshakable label of a self-publisist, no matter how little I actually publisise myself. I've never sent any news of my ascents to anyone - you can ask Jack on that front. There seems to be this complete contradiction coming from the doubting camp, where if you don't provide videos and comments you deserve to be slandered and if you do you're a show off. I've always been very transparent in my ascents. I've answered any questions that people asked and have quickly provided witnesses if needed. My question is why I and others have to?
At the time I did sky burial, I was totally under the radar, not reporting anything, climbing by myself and yet still I got people feeling as if they had the right to stick the knife in.
No I didn't. It wasn't reported anywhere, at all. It looks like I have the unshakable label of a self-publisist, no matter how little I actually publisise myself. I've never sent any news of my ascents to anyone - you can ask Jack on that front. There seems to be this complete contradiction coming from the doubting camp, where if you don't provide videos and comments you deserve to be slandered and if you do you're a show off. I've always been very transparent in my ascents. I've answered any questions that people asked and have quickly provided witnesses if needed. My question is why I and others have to?
At the time I did sky burial, I was totally under the radar, not reporting anything, climbing by myself and yet still I got people feeling as if they had the right to stick the knife in.
5
3
In reply to Franco Cookson:
youre right Franco. It's fairly clear from this topic that you are not in any way interested in publicising yourself.
youre right Franco. It's fairly clear from this topic that you are not in any way interested in publicising yourself.
19
2
In reply to abarro81:
Maybe he doesn't go on ukb or thinks that you don't deserve an explanation?
> All of this could have been averted, probably, had Ellis done the sensible thing and engaged in the UKB discussion where doubts were originally raised 6 months ago or whenever it was. As with Simpson, the manner or response to questions has done nothing to help his credibility. For this reason a number of non-armchair climbers are now highly sceptical of anything he claims, and will be irrespective of belayer testimony unless they know the belayer/spotter or know someone who can vouch for them. This is an absurd situation but is what happens when you respond poorly to questions.
> Of course he's well within his rights not to respond, and no-one is 'entitled' to video of anything, but if you claim hard stuff publicly then be prepared to at least give a list of witnesses and engage in discussion on whether you started 8B boulders, unrepeated since hold breakage, in the right place or not. If people don't wish to do this then they should either keep everything to themself and their mates (not scorecards and news items) or be prepared to be doubted.
> I'd be interested to know which clique you have to be part of to not get questioned, since it seems to include 95% of climbers in the country. Perhaps by clique you mean "extended uk climbing scene". Although given that some of the most high profile cases of doubting have been the likes of Rich Simpson and Ben Heason (both very much part of the climbing scene), clearly being part of the scene doesn't actually mean people won't question you should they wish to. This shit's all in your head.
> Alex
Maybe he doesn't go on ukb or thinks that you don't deserve an explanation?
3
1
In reply to Franco Cookson:
Fact: you claimed the very highest grade in the world for one of your routes (E11, then downgraded it yourself).
Fact: you put this on this very site for all to see.
Fact: you have not logged any route harder than E6 outside your home stomping ground (and that's highball V6).
Fact: you have no known or highlighted history of repeating hard routes outside the moors.
Fact: you have no history of climbing hard sport or bouldering.
Is it any wonder people question your claims! You are a self publicist who plays the media. Don't try and pull the wool over the eyes of those who know better. Your game is clear for all to see.
Andy F
Fact: you claimed the very highest grade in the world for one of your routes (E11, then downgraded it yourself).
Fact: you put this on this very site for all to see.
Fact: you have not logged any route harder than E6 outside your home stomping ground (and that's highball V6).
Fact: you have no known or highlighted history of repeating hard routes outside the moors.
Fact: you have no history of climbing hard sport or bouldering.
Is it any wonder people question your claims! You are a self publicist who plays the media. Don't try and pull the wool over the eyes of those who know better. Your game is clear for all to see.
Andy F
13
4
In reply to GDes:
Exactly what I was thinking; or indeed changing a topic about EBB's extremely dubious reporting and claiming of climbing achievements.
To change the topic back to 'Iridescence' for one second; notwithstanding all the lack of video etc etc; the details of the ascent surprised me anyway: I've never experienced any decent conditions at Anstey's at dusk. The ferocity wall always seems to get extremely humid / condensed just as it gets dark. However I've not tried any 8cs at 10pm, so perhaps I just lack persistence.
> youre right Franco. It's fairly clear from this topic that you are not in any way interested in publicising yourself.
Exactly what I was thinking; or indeed changing a topic about EBB's extremely dubious reporting and claiming of climbing achievements.
To change the topic back to 'Iridescence' for one second; notwithstanding all the lack of video etc etc; the details of the ascent surprised me anyway: I've never experienced any decent conditions at Anstey's at dusk. The ferocity wall always seems to get extremely humid / condensed just as it gets dark. However I've not tried any 8cs at 10pm, so perhaps I just lack persistence.
4
Here is Ellis's send footage of Chimera 8b+ at Ansteys from June 2014 (a link up of Fisherman's Tale via a reverse of the Postman Pat Crux into the last 2 thirds of Tuppence). I was there that day. This is similar to Brian except that starts up Poppy instead and finishes up Tuppence Hapney rather than just Tuppence.
youtube.com/watch?v=2-W0PA-wU3o&
youtube.com/watch?v=2-W0PA-wU3o&
1
1
In reply to teddy:
The evidence as presented by Trey Parker and Matt Stone?
> Here is Ellis's send footage of Chimera 8b+ at Ansteys from June 2014 ....
The evidence as presented by Trey Parker and Matt Stone?
Here's a topo of the left end of Ferocity Wall, and Ellis' route in all it's glory:
http://postimg.org/image/43e66inox/
RED - La Creme 7c+ (and it's bolts)
BLUE - Project bolts (almost delineating the actual project lines)
PINK - Tuppence / Ha'Penny
GREEN - Iridescence 8c
Post edited at 22:03
In reply to El3ctroFuzz:
So which is Iridescence? Is it what you refer to as Incandescent or what you refer to as the Project - in which case does that mean you don't think he climbed it or have I missed something?
So which is Iridescence? Is it what you refer to as Incandescent or what you refer to as the Project - in which case does that mean you don't think he climbed it or have I missed something?
1
In reply to El3ctroFuzz:
Well I'll wade back in!
That for me is not the realization of a, many years old project. Its a more difficult way to do La Creme.
As has been said before above very impressive climbing I'm sure, but seriously a new route?
There are some strong people trying these projects and to claim that that is the completion of one of them is doing these guys a disservice!
Well I'll wade back in!
That for me is not the realization of a, many years old project. Its a more difficult way to do La Creme.
As has been said before above very impressive climbing I'm sure, but seriously a new route?
There are some strong people trying these projects and to claim that that is the completion of one of them is doing these guys a disservice!
3
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...