UKC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36999025

In reply to Stu Tyrrell:

Tragic.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/bitter-cold-end_british-climbers-freeze-to-deat...

In reply to Stu Tyrrell:

Very sad news.

Extremely sad.

In reply to Stu Tyrrell:

They have been named

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/06/two-missing-british-climbers-fou...

Very sad indeed

In reply to Stu Tyrrell:

Tragic, when you read about climbers dying in the mountains you expect avalanche or a fall, but to freeze to death? I think you can take 'light is right' a bit too far, I'm often alarmed when I see what some people on here list as their alpine kit. For another 700ish grams apiece, they could've carried an insulating layer each and a shelter.

In reply to Stu Tyrrell:

Deepest condolences to the family and friends of the climbers. The Matterhorn can indeed be savage.

In reply to Dell:

Not really the time or place, another thread another time maybe.

Very sad news re these two guys. I hope I'm still up for a crack at something like the Matterhorn when I'm their age.

In reply to Dell:

My first thoughts after the condolences as well, I even typed a similar response earlier but deleted it again. Mainly I feel sad and a bit scared, as my daughter is climbing in the area right now as well.
After reading comments from the Italian rescuers in the German news, I thought about a very recent thread on here, where it was suggested to save weight by carrying a light soft shell layer only. If anything good should come from this tragedy, it can maybe remind people that distances are much bigger in the alps, and retreat in deteriorating weather can take too long, so one should better be prepared. Please do take a hard shell, and ideally a light bivi bag or other emergency shelter!

CB

In reply to Babika:


Iconic, but savage indeed - over 500 deaths is an appalling figure.

In reply to cb294:

Definitely a good idea to have a light weight shelter in the Alps, I even take mine skiing if I'm on my own.

In reply to Removed User:


There is never another thread at another time. This is the right place to mourn but also to learn lessons.

In reply to Dell:


I suspect you are probably correct, but I'm not sure there's enough information to suggest that this pair fell afoul of an extreme lightweight protocol. You can go lightweight while still being prepared for adverse conditions - and it's also telling that it was their second summit attempt - psychological factors could well have been at play.

In any case, you can play the 'what if' game ad infinitum.

In reply to Jim 1003:
I have one of those plastic bag jobbies in the bottom of every sack I own it stays there and gets replaced if used. used twice once for when I came across a guy with a broken ankle and his mate awaiting rescue, and another time as an extra layer when biviing

In reply to planetmarshall:


Each of the links given state that the men were wearing light clothing, the Telegraph one mentions them "wearing only light pants and windbreakers"
If that's the case then they certainly weren't what I would described as 'being prepared for adverse conditions'

Yes it's a "What if?"

What if they had been carrying duvet jackets and a 2 man bothy bag? We can all learn something from this.

In reply to Dell:


I couldn't agree more. Some of the "my sack is lighter than yours" stuff on here is downright irresponsible. The only sensible advice for the mountains is to carry sufficient to survive a night out in good order in any conditions that might reasonably be expected and then to think about how to do that as light as possible.

In reply to Dell:


You misunderstand. All this suggests is that the pair were ill equipped for conditions on the mountain, not necessarily that they deliberately chose a lightweight approach to enhance their chances of success.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Lighter can also be faster and therefore safer. There is a trade off that can only be made reliably with experience. If you have to ask on the net, I would rather recommend erring on the side of safety. Personally I try to go light, but tend to cut on heavy protection (usually no cams) or take lighter gear (e.g. crampons or ice axe) instead of leaving my hard shell and bivi bag at home.
Apparently there was also a Russian team caught up in the same storm, and they just called to say they would not make it back that night, set up their bivi, and got flown out when the storm relented.

CB

In reply to digby:


Well said. Shying away from the hard truth that alpine mountains are serious and ignoring the lessons in the face of tragedy is negligent.

Sad news indeed.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

What lessons? You mean the lesson that linking speculation and making accusations is hurtful to loved ones? Maybe the lesson that the press more often that not has things wrong in mountain accidents? What about the lesson we really needed to learn but never did as we got caught in teaching everyone here something that we have no idea if its even relevant?

The only immediate critiques I want to see linked to such tragic announcements are those volunteered first hand with family permission. Proper lessons wait for sober expert assessment and due respect for mourning.

My condolences to family and friends and apologies that some on our climbing website is so quick to point fingers when they should know better (particularly in alpine accidents where bad luck so often is key).

In reply to Robert Durran:


"sufficient to survive a night out in good order in any conditions that might reasonably be expected "

And that can only come from experience,

or possibly experimentation.

How many folk on here have tried sleeping out/ surviving in minimal kit?

It takes a lot of willpower to use spare gear as a pillow whilst shivering away.

The other way to keep warm, is to keep moving, only taking power naps until cold again.
This is not always possible, depends on the situation, injuries etc.

In reply to Offwidth:

This thread is not supposed to be some sort of official obituary.

It's just highlighting a mountaineering related news story, sad as it is. The users of this forum are free to comment on that story, and I'm sure my thoughts were shared by many others on here after they'd read the news report.

If people have second thoughts about omitting a bivvy bag or extra layers from their pack after reading this thread, then my comments would have served a useful purpose, regardless of the precise details of this tragedy.

You don't often read of climbers getting into danger because they were 'over equipped'

In reply to Dell:


Not so much in the UK but you do in the Alps, I am afraid.

read cb294 at 7.03 above

In reply to Dell:


You've never heard or read stories of alpinists moving too slowly and getting caught in inclement weather/running out of food etc? They might have been able to move quicker with less gear?

I'm British and reasonably inexperienced in the Alps so tend to err on the side of caution (I like to conform to stereotype) but sometimes light IS right, you just need the experience to know when that is....

In reply to Dell:

I'm sorry but you appear to believe yourself to be a voice of authority on what to take on alpine routes based on little or no experience.

In reply to galpinos:


There's a paradox in here, you mention that they might have run out of food, but say they are carrying too much gear... so should they have carried more or less food?

Being critical of 'light is right' is not saying that everyone should go into the mountains like Mr Muggins in Carry On Camping, with frying pans and all sorts hanging off the back of your pack.

As Robert pointed out, there is a bare minimum that you should carry, carrying a single warm layer is not going to be the difference between staying on the mountain and getting off it. Walkers get into trouble on Snowdon for not carrying a fleece.

Just because Ueli Steck can run up and down Everest with just a funsize Mars Bar and some earmuffs....

In reply to Dell:

Of course there is a paradox, it comes up in pretty much every alpine story, trip report etc, the balance between light and fast and slow and heavy. Have you never heard anyone say anything along the lines of, "if you pack your sac with kit for an emergency bivy, you'll end up biving"?

Did you miss the bit when I said:


You wrote this:


which proves there is no minimum. People just need to be aware of what they are capable of and what they need through experience and not just listen to people spouting guff on the internet (you and me included) and be appropriately prepared.


I don't know what was in their sacs so shalln't comment but you are speculating here.


What about all those fell runners in just a vest and skimpy shorts?

In reply to smithaldo:

It's the experienced ones that get themselves into the most trouble due to complacency. I think Neil Johnson made this point at a BMC lecture last year. The danger is when the inexperienced see a kitlist of what the 'pro's' carry and think they can bin critical items of gear, complacency must not be encouraged.

In reply to galpinos:

Fair points.

I would've thought that the climbers in question would've been wearing all their clothes (which by all accounts wasn't enough), not leaving them in their sacks.

I thought fell runners have to carry a minimum amount of kit for competitions? Even so, they are much easier to rescue than someone stuck in a storm in the alps, and as for the Snowdon walker, they too are relatively easy to rescue, but it would be better all round if they didn't require rescuing in the first place.

In reply to Dell:
Just because we have rights (to comment on UKC) we dont always have to exercise them, particularly if they could be hurtful, this is the partner rights have, called responsibilities. I'm sure you have good intentions at heart but you seem very inexperienced and many of us here have lost friends in the alps and know simplistic arguments are usually wrong. If anything is irresponsible it's probably climbing in the first place; a decision freely made. If an issue on a condolences thread raises genuine questions, rights combined with responsibilities points to just starting a new thread, or better still just wait a bit until the loss is less keen and the facts better known.

In reply to Dell:

I wasn't having a go, just reinforcing the point that how "light" you can go depends on your experience, fitness, ability, objective, not on what someone says on the internet, be that an over cautious UKC poster or an uber wad's blog about how everything for 10 days fitted in a bumbag.


So would I but I don't know the exact details of their fate. I have done, and watched friends do, some surprising things when tired, scared and cold. I'd prefer not to criticise someone after their death, especially when I'm not aware of the facts.


FRA rules have a minimum kit for some races and it's at the discretion of the organisers for shorter races depending on the weather/forecast. It includes waterproof top and bottoms, hat gloves compass whistle and map of the route.

There's plenty of people out on the fells running with less though. (If I'm on my tod I have my phone and a little primaloft jumper as well as I'm an over cautious UKC punter)

In reply to Offwidth:



What defines any thread as a "condolences thread"?

In reply to timjones:

If you are serious about the question take it elsewhere.

Can I suggest the how-much-stuff discussion continues on the do you take a bothy bag thread?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=647439

In reply to Dell:

Actually the real danger is when an inexperienced alpinist, Cosmiques Ridge under their belt, hears what Ueli Steck or whoever carries and then sets themselves up as an experienced authority on UKC, dangerously spouting banal mantras such a "light is right" and "if you carry bivi gear, you'll end up bivvying" without any sort of qualification as to what they might sensibly mean in practice for the average alpinist.

In reply to Offwidth:


Yes I'm serious about the question and why should I take it elsewhere?

What defines this as a condolences thread rather than a news thread?

In reply to timjones:

Since I clearly dont want to get involved in such arguments here, if you want an answer its the only way.

In reply to Offwidth:


The lessons that we are awaiting to find out. I dont know the people involved but they have my sincerest of sympathies.

There has clearly been a mistake, whether insufficient food, a wrong turn, poor choice of clothes. Something happened which has killed two experienced explorers which I am sure others would wish to know the reasons for.

Since you have become the self-appointed defender of the family, do you think that they wouldnt want others to learn from this tragedy, even preventing another one, or would they would wish that the death goes unnoticed and that others perish?

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
Have you lost close friends or family in the alps?. I have. My views are based on my decades of experience and others I know who have suffered similar loss (and from advice from involvement with mountain rescue and guides in serious incidents) of the often innacurate and sometimes dishonest and nasty interest from the press and, increasingly in the web age , the public (just read the comments under some newspaper reports of climbing deaths). I always hoped UKC as a climbing community could be better and over the years it has been. This is sadly a regular topic and nothing has convinced me that anyone really benefits from immediate UKC discussions with sometimes callous speculation and timing, least of all the family (who are probably understandably distracted from any wider lessons at present).

There is massive benefit to be had after sober analysis of the full facts. Such accident analysis is pretty extensive these days, including most recently the BMC reporting link. There is plenty of input to, and plenty to learn from, such reports, that I suspect very few read. The most common lesson in the alps, where objective risk is high, is sheer bad luck (usually weather or fatigue related).

In reply to Offwidth:

Oh dear.

Such a lack of humanity being shown on this thread. There is absolutely no information in this thread - other than unverified media releases - that allows someone not involved to make anything but educated guesses on what went wrong.

Of course identifying how we can avoid situations arising again can be as painful for all involved as it is worthwhile, but to start bandying about suggestions that "there has clearly been a mistake..." when we know next to none of the facts, well, I'm really saddened at that attitude.

In reply to Calski:

Me too. Offwidth is totally correct in my view. UKC posters on here should stick to trash social media sites. Lets hope that the relatives are not reading this post. When the FACTS emerge then we can understand what went wrong.

In reply to Dell:


Nope, it is those only dabbling or beginning who have problems, a little bit of knowledge is more dangerous than knowing everything or nothing. Those who have mileage will rely on their own experience, those with no knowledge ask for help, those who think they know often carry on blindly.

I've climbed in the Alps, or alpine style around the world for a little over 30 years now, at least one trip a year often more... and I would never make a presumption that a group of people who had problems were under or over kitted, unless I knew their skills and experience, the weather at the time and forecast, the condition of their route planned and exactly what was in both their bags etc... anything else is pure speculation.

There are routes in the Alps I've repeated many times over the years, some of them I carry more kit on now than I did as a youth, others much much less, often dictated by conditions, but sometimes wisdom learnt from being too heavy, too warm/cold, or under equipped previously.

In reply to Offwidth:


Yes, of course, but it is all about managing that risk to improve your chances. Tactics and timing to minimise exposure to stone or serac fall. Optimising your chances of surviving the unexpected storm by getting a balance between speed to avoid it all together and carrying enough to survive it if you can't. It is always more complicated than sheer bad luck - you do your best to create your own luck, and that comes from good advice and from experience.

In reply to Robert Durran:

"It is always more complicated than sheer bad luck..."

Fully agree, with the exception of those nine words above... Sometimes bad luck is just bad luck. Nothing more and nothing less.

In reply to Calski:


So could you give me an example? A situation where the risk couldn't have been anticipated and moderated in any way?

In reply to Robert Durran: not on this thread

In reply to Dell:


That may have came out wrong. I think what was meant, was that even the experienced can get themselves into trouble, and that complacency can sometimes be the cause. Apologies if I offended anyone who classes themselves as 'experienced'

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

First of all, heartfelt condolences to families.

If we are talking about errors, they might have had the right gear for the season, but not for that day. The weather forecast was clear on the storm coming in that Thursday/Friday (announced a few days in advance), with massive temp drop.

A lesson to be learned maybe in not only to check the forecast before you head to the hut, but to check it on your phone before leaving the hut for the summit push.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Earthquake.

In reply to JuneBob:

OK, though I suppose you could be extra wary of even stable looking seracs in known earthquake zones.

In reply to Offwidth:

This is all getting a bit prissy and proper; "My condolences to family and friends and apologies that some on our climbing website is so quick to point fingers when they should know better (particularly in alpine accidents where bad luck so often is key)."

So ... don't apologise for me buster.

Russians survived in this instance and the two Brits didn't. Seems pretty bleedin' obvious why - cue lightly clothed - and comments/discussion on this site to draw conclusions from that seem sensible to me. Enough with the criticism of people discussing this.

In reply to Offwidth:

Jeez guy, you are a proper pompous person and no mistake. Lighten up why doncha?

In reply to Offwidth:


It would be hard to show, wouldn't it? However, I'll certainly think a little bit more the next time I wonder "Perhaps I could get away with leaving out x, y or z to make my bag lighter". Perhaps by taking that extra bit of kit I'll survive, in which case you won't hear about it, and hence get no positive feedback. Using an example to make a point is a method of teaching/learning. Unfortunately this example is a bit morbid, but that makes it all the more important so that it might happen a bit less in the future.

In reply to Chris_Mellor:
A close friend of mine has just been killed base-jumping in Norway. His body hasn't even been recovered yet and already people are speculating on a forum as to his level of experience, his motivations, his equipment... These people had never even heard of my friend before this accident and have no idea of the circumstances surrounding it. It's all very ugly, very disrespectful and very inappropriate. Many posts in this thread are similar; people speculating and apportioning blame using only the incomplete and unverified information they have gleaned from the press. Nothing useful can be learned at this stage with the information available. There might be a time for analysis but it's not now.

And anyway what if someone takes away from this that you should always carry bivvy gear on an Alpine route. That's certainly the message being conveyed. They will surely be slower on the ascent and more fatigued at the end of the climb and these factors are also responsable for many serious mistakes and fatal accidents. They might well get caught by the storm because they weren't off the mountain quick enough. Your certainty and lack of doubt about this incident suggests that you don't have much experience in Alpine climbing. I find it slightly ironic that you are accusing Offwidth of being pompous. His posts show a compassion and respect which have been gained through a lifetime of climbing.

As for the people who are wondering what makes this a condoleance thread rather than an analysis thread - well just look at the title :/

In reply to nb


It's just a reference to a sad news story. People have made of it what they see fit. What are you claiming it is?

And nobody has said you should always carry full bivi gear on an alpine route. If you have got that impression, then it is probably because a worthwhile discussion has been unfortunately stifled.

In reply to Robert Durran:

No one is stiffling discussion: there is a whole sub-thread on the issue, as you well know. When memories are ragged with pain 'sad news' maybe means something rawer to them; you could at least acknowledge that with some compassion.

In reply to Offwidth:

Isn't it a bit hypocritical for you to continue this argument here after you've set up a discussion thread? It might look like your real agenda is to assert your moral superiority rather than any concern for relatives.

In reply to Offwidth:


OK, all I am saying is that it makes sense on many routes to carry sufficient to be able to survive a night out in bad weather in reasonable order. This does not mean full bivi gear and, between two people, can mean really very little extra weight - a warm jacket each and something like a bothy bag and perhaps the lightest of gas cookers to keep hydrated. And of course 'light is right' but this should not mean recklessly leaving out stuff that is sensible to take, but rather being sensibly equipped as lightly as possible.


I don't think anyone has shown a lack of compassion on this thread.

In reply to Robert Durran:
I think the trick is to match the lightness of the gear with the likely conditions. In a period of settled weather light is definitely right but you need experience to know that so if there's any doubt about the forecast or lack of experience to understand the likely conditions you'd hope the (hypothetical) party didn't go out in bikinis or running gear ...