UKC

"Ive got a great idea, Im going to to throw stones at the police and set fire to shit thereby putting the fire service at risk. That will help my cause and make the UK population just gush with desire to let me, a 'refugee' come to the UK. Its just the culture they like over there."*

*Im a liberal remainer before anyone accuses me of being a Farage rent boy

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:


You've been watching the West Ham game then?

In reply to Lemony:

You missed the sarcasm

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Maybe you missed that of 6'000 people in this horrible place only a tiny amount threw stones and set fires.

In reply to aln:


Maybe you missed that many UK people cant distinguish between the two, therefore rendering the valid issue invalid because the minority, as you put it, fuel the fear that the majority of uk (52%) residents fear.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Those guys must have missed the extensive media training that's given to all refugees in case of such events as these.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:


No I didn't. You're putting words into others mouths.

In reply to aln:

Erm, you said tiny amount, which defines minority in most peoples eyes.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

If I might paraphrase Darth Vader 'The empathy is weak with this one'.

Desperate people. Who could honestly say how they'd behave in such a scenario?

In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:


Please will you stop calling them refugees they aren't they are economic migrants.

They are choosing to live in squaor because they see that people in the UK even the poorest can get nearly £2000 a month on benefits..... compare that to the average wage in Africa.

In reply to Indy:


Seeing as you said please. Actually, still no.

In reply to DaveHK:




Desperate to escape the third world war ridden poverty that is France.

In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

The moment they enter a safe country willing to offer them refuge they are no longer refugees in my book. If you're then moving from one safe country to another for economic reasons (seeking better work opportunities / benefits system) then you're an economic migrant, no diffrent from a native resident doing the same, apart from you being illegal of course.

In reply to Indy:

'Please will you stop calling them refugees they aren't they are economic migrants.'

At last - somebody has spoken to every single one of the migrants and knows exactly what their circumstances are, who needs expensive social workers and HO officials when indy can do it all single handed!

And what fantasy world are you living in where you think 'in the UK even the poorest can get nearly £2000 a month on benefits' - what rag did you read that in? Because they were lying to you to exploit your stupidity and gullibility, with total success. You're not indy, you're a sap.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:





FTFY.

In reply to Lord_ash2000:

Maybe they are trying to move to a country whose language they know, - have you tried learning German, or French, if you had never heard them before you were 18? - where they have relatives and friends, where they have heard that there is still the rule of law, educational opportunities and also employment (which with unemployment at an all time low for peace time is in fact true.)

Maybe they're not stupid herd-like animals but desperate human beings trying to escape appalling circumstances in Eritrea, Somalia, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan - much of it of our making, or at least we contributed to - making rational choices based on the information they have. If a few after months and years of being brutalised, a few react badly when confronted with the unyielding force of riot police, well they won't be the first.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Copied and pasted from the Shelter website.....

The benefit cap was reduced from 7 November 2016.

The total amount a couple or a single parent can receive in benefits is:

£442.31 a week or £1916.67 in London
£384.62 a week or £1666.67 outside London
The total amount a single person can receive in benefits is:

£296.35 a week or £1284.17 per month in London
£257.69 a week or £1116.67 per month outside London

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Being a refugee is about fleeing war or persecution. Basically fleeing from being killed or tortured for who they are / support or just generally being in a war zone.

All fair reasons to leave your home country and find refuge elsewhere. But it doesn't give you the right to wonder the earth, ignore all international boarders and settle wherever you suites you. Yes, maybe its not ideal fleeing to a country where you don't speak the language, or maybe the employment opportunity's aren't the best in the world but at least you and your family aren't going to get killed by an airstrike in the night, or dragged off the street by ISIS and chucked off a building for being gay. Personally I'd be pretty dam grateful of any nation who can shelter me from that.

To then start saying "oh well, yes its nice I'm not going to be blown up or see my children stave to death, but reading this German phrase book is a right pain, I think I can still milk the fact I once lived in a war zone to now expect to walk into any old country which suites me."

It's just ungratefulness in the extreme. "yeah, thanks Turkey / Greece for saving my life but your economy isn't quiet up to scratch for my tastes I'm off to France/Germany/England. Its just cheek

In reply to Indy:

So what you're saying is the most one parent can claim is £1284.17, not the £2000 you claimed?

That holds true if you are a single parent, I'd assume if you weren't a parent the amount would be considerably lower?

In reply to galpinos:
$35/month in Africa or £1284.17/month in the UK... now thats a tough call. Get yourself a girlfriend or better still a sham marriage and get even more!

Besides the vast vast majority of economic migrants end up in London.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:


mainland Europe? Apparently the UK is doomed now after Brexit.

In reply to Indy:


Is that true? This suggests that of the 8.4m immigrants living in the UK, only about 3.1m live in London.


http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/migrants-in-th...

In reply to Indy:


So what you're actually saying is your £2000/month figure was sensationalist bo**ckls? Thought so......


I know your grasp of maths is a bit shonky but less than 40% is not "the vast vast majority".

In reply to Lemony:

Instead of including people like the head of the bank of England and most? of the Premier league what would the figures be if you only counted those that live in squalor in Calais waiting to storm the port or climb on to the back of a UK bound lorry?

In reply to Indy:
I hope to God you never need benefits because with your grasp of Google you are going to be bitterly disappointed.

I worked with asylum seekers in the mid 90s, and I was amazed at how little they received and how on earth they were supposed to live on it. I'm pleased to say that we are now overwhelmingly generous:

'Housing
You£ll be given somewhere to live if you need it. This could be in a flat, house, hostel or bed and breakfast.
You can£t choose where you live. It£s unlikely you£ll get to live in London or south-east England.
Cash support
You£ll be able to collect money from a local post office each week. This will help you pay for things you need like food, clothing and toiletries.
You£ll get £36.95 for each person in your household.'

So, you are correct, an asylum seeker WILL get £2000 per month ... if there are 12.5 people in their household.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
If it is soo utterly terrible here why is it people are choosing to live in filth and squalor in Calais while trying to storm the port and its trucks in huge numbers every night?

Edit: Clue... they aren't asylum seekers???

In reply to Indy:

It isn't so terrible, it's just as 1/12th as good as you posted.

A simple apology for your original mistake will do fine.

In reply to Lord_ash2000:



While I applaud your attempt to empathise with people trying to escape such persecution, I'm not convinced that you're qualified to do so. For example, I sympathise, but I cannot possibly imagine what it is like; whether gratitude to a nation with which I have no connection would outweigh the desire to reach family members, wherever they may be, having just escaped a living hell.

In reply to planetmarshall:

So whats your position on economic migrants?

In reply to Indy:


I generally take a fairly free market position on labour. There doesn't seem to be any drastic shortage of work here, and if there are people willing to work then I don't see why employers should be prevented from employing them. To be born in a nation such as the UK is hugely fortunate, and frankly if someone's managed to make the journey from Syria without being killed, trafficked or worse then they probably have a pretty good work ethic. Good luck to them say I.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
And all these people are now being foisted upon other communities with 2 days notice as one French mayor said last night.
He said he was already struggling to supply homes and service s for his existing citizens, and could not understand how he could be expected to absorb even more people with their limited resources. It does NOT sound like they are going to be welcomed by that community, which is apparantly only a hours drive from Calais .

There is every chance that this problem is not resolved by any means.

As one French commentator said, we have a plan A (but there is no Plan B)

In reply to planetmarshall:

Well I don't see why I'd need to be "qualified", whatever that means. I may not have lived in a war torn country where my life is in danger but I grasp the concept that if I was under threat I'd be grateful to be shielded from that threat. I can't see how making the threat more extreme beyond my personal experiences is suddenly going to leave me not grateful all of a sudden.

I also appreciate that humans naturally would like to make the best out of situations, (why settle on Turkey when you can go to Germany/UK). The motivation is clear but the fact is its illegal and they know it and as such should accept the fact that if they are discovered they should be arrested and punished. I'm not saying that the EU shouldn't take their share of the burden off Turkey, but it should be done in an official manor organised between the nations, not just having 1000's of people wandering across the continent on the excuss of "hey I'm a refugee I can do what I want"

Also why would they need to visit family members in the UK or else where so desperately all of a sudden? Pre-war they were presumably living quiet happily in Syria or wherever with no sudden need to visit relations over seas, so what is the rush now all of a sudden?

In reply to Big Ger:


There was a time when moving to France was quite aspirational. Interesting times.

In reply to Lord_ash2000:

I find your lack of empathy and imagination extraordinary. If your world totally fell apart, where would you go - somewhere where you think you have relatives, however distant they may be, or somewhere where you know no-one?

There's a reason for the expression 'blood is thicker than water' - and it's what migrants and refugees have done since we became human.

In reply to planetmarshall:

So complete open door..... anyone anywhere who fancies coming to the UK should be allowed no questions asked?

In reply to Jim C:

There was a national front demo (from Cluses I think) in Chamonix as they were to house 2 families. I'd have thought their time would be better spent kicking all the Brits out.

In reply to Indy:


I don't think I said that. I've reposted it below verbatim just to be clear. Please feel free to highlight the part that implies, to you, 'complete open door'.

I generally take a fairly free market position on labour. There doesn't seem to be any drastic shortage of work here, and if there are people willing to work then I don't see why employers should be prevented from employing them. To be born in a nation such as the UK is hugely fortunate, and frankly if someone's managed to make the journey from Syria without being killed, trafficked or worse then they probably have a pretty good work ethic. Good luck to them say I.

In reply to Indy:


...and just to turn the question on its head, why should you be allowed to stay here and reap the benefits? What have you done to earn them? Have you worked harder, sacrificed more? Do you think you're entitled to a host of economic benefits just because of the location of your mother's vagina at a particular point in time?

In reply to Lord_ash2000:


Because bits of their former relatives are now scattered over the Syrian desert, perhaps?

In reply to Lord_ash2000:


Suddenly the reason you're worried about an influx of highly motivated and cheap labour becomes clear.

In reply to planetmarshall:


In a word.... yes.

In reply to Lord_ash2000:


You may have answered your own question?

In reply to Indy:

Would you be similarly complacent about all the countries you might like to go to deciding that, no, actually, you're not welcome.

I wonder just how many UK nationals (never mind UK companies) are working abroad?

In reply to Andy Say:


I am. With no suitable work locally I took up a contract here in Belgium for a few months, something that was incredibly straightforward thanks to the benefits that came with Britain being a member of the EU. Unfortunately whether such options will be quite so straightforward in the future remains unclear, both for EU citizens currently working in the UK and expats like myself working abroad.

In reply to Indy:

What about the unaccompanied children - what would you class them as?

Can a refugee move countries, or once they have crossed the border into a "safe country" do they then become an economic migrant? How do you do this? Do you fill out a form?

What do we do when countries like Turkey and Lebanon have a huge number of refugees and consequently not having the resources to house them, provide jobs etc...... what do we do then?

Can we just say it's down to where we were born?

What happens if our country is a part of the problem? Or part of the solution?



For me there is no easy answer - just lots of questions.

Juan

In reply to Lord_ash2000:

Currently worldwide there are an estimated 65.3 million people forcibly displaced (UNHCR)

At it's height there were 7,307 refugees/migrants/people in the "Jungle" (UNHCR)

That's 0.112% have "gone where they want"


As you eluded, maybe just maybe a civil war claiming around 400,000 (Amnesty I) has played a part in people moving..

Juan

In reply to planetmarshall:


Interesting. And the more I think about it the more it would be an interesting project to work out how much UK nationals, like yourself, and UK companies earn in other countries, to the benefit of the UK, and offset that against how much immigrants to the UK cause a drain on our economy.

In reply to JuanTinco:

There are perfectly adequate laws the govern asylum the reason that people don't want to use them is the same reason that people try to jump over the fence at Glastonbury or steal cars.

Its people with views like yours that draw people to the filth and squalor of 'the Jungle'.

In reply to Indy:

You're kidding, right? A joke in poor taste? You are equating people fleeing from being tortured, watching their sisters being raped, being forced into the Eritrean army for all their adult lives, avoiding being boiled alive by ISIS in vats of bleach... you're equating these people who have walked across continents, sailed across oceans in leaking boats, lived on nothing for months and years at a time with people who jump over the fence at Glastonbury? Or twokkers?

I think you need to travel more mate, get out of your comfort zone, maybe even learn to be a bit more discriminating in your sources of information.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

IF that was true why aren't people claiming and getting asylum? Maybe its YOU that needs to get out more.

In reply to Indy:

I'm a little confused?

I don't understand the point you are making - can you elaborate?


On a side note - I find the statement "it's people with views like yours" very worrying, how do you know what my views are - from one post of a forum challenging a statement you made. That kind of attitude explains a lot of the problems behind some our world violence, people causing pain to people "with those views, that religion etc"

Juan

In reply to Indy:


Actually no. We (US, UK etc) started a war - well, wars - in their countries. OK, it wasn't the greatest country, and the political siutation was undesirable but at least stable. It was however their home, and we've turned the whole area into an ashtray with Iraq in a mess and a three way war waging in Syria.

Understandably these people run away (from the war we started and are continuing to actively wage). They pay thousands to get over to Europe. IF they don't die in transit, then they trek through the continent looking for somewhere that might offer them refuge.

We, of course, despite having started the whole problem with our bombs, have agreed to take 14 orphans (or some similar derisory number).

The rest are piling up all over the continent, some in Calais.

So, basically, we are refusing to take responsbiliy for our actions. We (and others) have destroyed the people's homeland. We then refuse to give them shelter. We then - or some of us - pour scorn on these people saying they are just in it for the money.

"Vile", "unpleasant", "nasty" and "callous" are all, in my view, perfectly reasonable descriptions for that behaviour.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

This is interesting;