UKC

Hi all,

So I've currently got a pair of 5.10 pinks for indoor usage, however after a few months usage the edges have become rounded. This means that I can't stand on tiny edges, or if I can it's only because I'm yarding on handholds instead of relying on footwork - so in effect I feel like these shoes (which are otherwise totally fine) are not helping my footwork improve (or perhaps are even worsening it).

So what are some solutions? Just suck it up and buy new shoes every 6 months for training indoors? Just avoid small footholded routes when using your banged up shoes and save a well-edged pair for the small foothold routes? Are the 5.10 pinks the wrong model to be using indoors and I should try something else? Should I be filing the rubber edges? Anything else?

Thanks in advance

In reply to SenzuBean:

Try Scarpa or sportiva shoes, they hold their shape better.

In reply to SenzuBean:

Turns out I don't have pinks - I have Anasazi guides.

In reply to dr_botnik:


I've had Sportiva Tarantulas, and I didn't find that they held an edge particularly well. Although they were my first pair of shoes, so possible I just wrecked them flailing around. And when you say shape, do you mean the specifically the edge?

In reply to SenzuBean:

I've found that my Scarpa instinct slippers retain the shape of the toe box whereas when I try anasazis the toe box rounds out quite quickly. I have several pairs of old anasazi's, all of which have rounded edges. Whereas my Scarpas all seem to keep the shape of the edge. I have some instinct slippers close to a year old, just got a brand new pair of anasazis, went to St David's last week and the anasazis scared me on the small slate like edges so much I preferred my year old scarpas over these.

In reply to SenzuBean:

Pinks are a ridiculously grippy shoe but hence wear out quite quickly.

I generally save mine for hard stuff outdoors and use cheaper shoes for training miles.

In reply to SenzuBean:

There's not many edges on indoor routes that you shouldn't be abe to stand on in vitually any shoe, with sufficient precision. It's the nature of the medium that tiny footholds rarely exist indoors.

I sometimes have a pair for outdoor climbing and one for indoor - or circuits vs harder stuff if I'm going to Font - but I still wind up buying a new pair every 6-8 months.

In reply to SenzuBean:

All shoes round off the edges over time. The newer La Sportiva shoes, Genius and others, don't even have an edge to start with.

They all still work fine so long as they fit.

In reply to SenzuBean:


The only things to 'help your footwork improve' are your eyes and feet - not your shoes. I suspect the issue is still your technique, not the shoes. Sharp-ish edges will certainly help a bit, but the main thing will be your footwork.

In reply to SenzuBean:

The Anasazi Guide is a stiff all day trad shoe so a lack of sensitivity in the toe might be the issue? I would say they weren't the best shoes for 'hard climbing' but plenty of people will climb hard stuff in them. I do all my climbing in pinks and even when the edges have rounded off, am happy on small edges. This comes down to doing all my climbing in them so trust them. Having said that, there are rarely any actually tiny edges to stand on indoors so it's never been an issue. I've been though loads of different models and keep coming back to the pinks. I wear them till they wear through then get them resoled.

Remember, Shauna Coxsey competes in and wins Bouldering World Cups in a pair of Anasazi velcros so i'm not sure it's the shoes that's holding you (or me for that matter) back!

In reply to Fraser:


I disagree. Poor shoes, at least indirectly, are bad for your footwork because you lose confidence in them and it is then difficult to regain it when you get good shoes; your footwork will not make best use of the shoes' capabilities.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Alternatively, slightly worn shoes will make you work on your footwork more, to get the most out of what you have. Consequently, when you get outside the difference is a positive. On the other hand, poor shoes that fit and perform like trainers aren't going to help you in any regard, inside or out. I keep worn shoes for indoors and gambol around like a spring lamb outside in newer shoes. Well, maybe not, but you get the idea

In reply to SenzuBean:

We climb at Eden Rock and the smooth walls actually promote footwork and help prolong the edges on the shoes imo. When we go to other walls that use textured surfaces its quite noticeable how much extra wear it places on the shoes.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Point taken, however mine was that decent-edged shoes won't magically improve your footwork. One needs to do that oneself.

In reply to galpinos:


I've worn these and found them completely insensitive, almost like climbing in a pair of big boots. Good for guides (surprise!) dragging punters up granite cracks. It's hard to imagine shoes less suitable for climbing indoors.

To answer the OPs point, months of regular use indoors will round the edges on your shoes, even with beautiful footwork like what I have got. Almost any soft-ish shoe that fits well will be a considerable improvement on the guides. Scarpa Instincts or their ilk are unnecessary or even desirable for climbing 6b and considerably harder indoors.

In reply to Lemony:

You'd be surprised - seems they really enjoy tiny footholds here in Canada. There were some 'slab' (actually it's off-vertical!) routes that had 2-3mm edges or so, and I could not stand on them at all. Similarly the traverse wall has 5mm or so edges. A number of other routes have a crucial but atrocious foothold (seems to be one of the hallmarks of the routesetter).

In reply to SenzuBean:


5 millimetres edges on a traverse. Luxury! We have 1mm edges on overhangs and they paint them with oil and it's raining because there's holes in the roof and we're so poor our climbing shoes are worn through at the toe and its our socks on the holds.

In reply to galpinos:


Sounds like that could be an issue. I'll buy a pair of pinks and see if they improve the situation. According to the website, they also have more of an 'aggresive' shape so might do better indoors.


To be fair I imagine she has fresh shoes for comps? I think I'm just tight and need to buy new shoes rather than rounding them off.

In reply to SenzuBean:


If you're 'yarding on handholds' as you put it, you could try channeling more weight to your feet. This would create a smearing effect around the feature/small hold, and grip it well. It only works if you fully commit to weighting your feet completely. If you don't trust your feet, you'll take all of the weight on your arms, making your feet pop off.

You'd be amazed what actually sticks when you trust your feet.

I've never tried it, but I've heard you can train this by climbing easy (but thin) slabs with a tennis ball in each hand.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

I thought you were supposed to put socks over your shoes of the rock is wet and slippery!

In reply to galpinos:

(Checks Nanjing final video) Them's not standard Anasazi Velcros, look at the toehook rubber. But they don't look like anything else standard in the 5.10 range either - looks like either her sponsor is doing custom specials for her, or she's getting them improved by somebody.

See also Jakob "9b in Katanas" Schubert

[/climbingshoegeek]

In reply to AlanLittle:

They are Anasazi velcros with stealth paint on the toe, same as Ned Freehally's, nothing that exciting.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:


Conversely we are so rich our holds are painted with buckminsterfullerenes.
The effect is not dissimilar.

In reply to ogreville:


To smear on tiny holds, on an overhanging wall, requires you to lean out to keep the normal force (i.e. the non-tangential) force maximum. This is what I'm doing, and it's not the solution. What I should be doing on these holds is edging, but knackered shoes makes it difficult/impossible.


Without being disrespectful... - the problem is not my trusting my feet. I've already been amazed at what sticks when I trust my feet. I have also trained (and still train) on slabs without using my hands (both with palming, and without any hand contact at all). It's a shoe problem this time

In reply to SenzuBean:


Don't just buy them on my recommendation! I'm a bit of a soft show fan so your preferences might differ from mine.....They might have a different last to the guides and cripple your feet. They are also quite a bit softer then the guides as well so might take a bit of getting used to. Try a few pairs on in the shop and climb a bit in them and just go win what seems right.


They'd be new-ish but well broken in I imagine, again it's about having trust in your feet and a brand new pair might feel a bit wooden/skittish. You don't have to ditch the guides, keep them for indoor sessions where you are doing a lot of easy mileage or long outdoor trad routes within your ability. Whatever allows you to justify more shiney new shoes......

In reply to galpinos:


Well it's only fair to try them after thinking they were what I'd had for the last few months.
I'll definitely try others in the shop, although I'm thinking I want something that fits similarly to 5.10 tans, which are my go-to trad shoes.


The guides are starting to pong badly, and the laces already snapped and were replaced. I will definitely keep them though, as I've heard they're fantastic for jamming into cracks.

In reply to SenzuBean:

Really surprised no one suggested yet that you get them resoled!

In reply to SenzuBean:

Perhaps.
Surely the shoe can't be the variable for success? lots of climbers getting up hard stuff in burst, smelly pinks with no edge.
I thought the standard practice for the non-pro is to buy a pair of shoes, climb in them till they either stink to death or get a hole in the toe, then replace.
At my local wall there are so many people with battered old shoes (stiff old Anasazi guides for example) burning everyone off every night.

In reply to SenzuBean:

In a word, yes.

If you work on the assumption that you're going to be climbing for the foreseeable future (i.e. several decades) then having multiple pairs of shoes on the go makes perfect sense
and works really well.

Why wear more expensive, tighter and more uncomfortable shoes for the bulk of routes or problems when something far cheaper and more comfortable is perfectly adequate?

I have spent most of the last twelve years climbing in numerous pairs of one of the cheapest and most basic models of shoes available (Evolv Defy) but I've always had another pair available for that tiny minority of routes or problems where the footholds are so small that stiffer and more precise shoes are necessary.

In the grand scheme of things, climbing shoes, like ropes, are consumables. Having lots available and being able to select the best option on a route by route or day by day basis is far more effective and efficient in the long-term.

In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

This. I currently have:

- two pairs that have big holes in their resoles and are so knackered I should probably throw them away.
- three pairs that have smaller holes but are still good for warm up routes & training mileage. I do pretty much everything indoors in these; not wasting good shoes on plastic.
- the current repoint shoes, which are on their second set of soles but still good.
- the next redpoint shoes, new & wearing them occasionally to break them in


I find the act of getting The Special Shoes out of the bag helps with the mental preparation for that big attempt. My partners have started to recognise them.

In reply to SenzuBean:

For many _outdoor_ footwork situations, that's exactly the solution.
So if indoor climbing is helping you learn that, great.

Yes it requires using more finger strength, and in a different way (hanging out instead of hanging down. And that's different from training on a fingerboard.
Get over it.

Indoor climbing is generally _bad_ for outdoor footwork
Better to just accept that learning outdoor footwork is a whole different game.

Ken

In reply to kenr:

Calf, hamstring and hip inflexibility due to a modern sitting down work lifestyle typically leads to feet popping during long reaches or very high steps irrespective of footwear and also leads to people being a lot more mobile in the lower back which can cause other issues.

Being able to drop the heels with or without shoes with edges without resorting to sticking your backside right out of the wall is possibly the best solution.

Indoor walls generally are a lot more genourous in foot placements leading to sloppy or lack of activation of the core and shoulder girdle. It takes a lot of effort to continue to push the foot throughout the entire extension of the leg, which due to the size of the holds indoors tends to be compensated by focusing on fingers and arms.

Regarding the OP to have or have no edges it is a moot point, it depends on what you are climbing, you need both with accompanying skills to take advantage of the available holds what the and rock type tends to offer.

Regarding bumblies with gaping holes in your worn out shoes, ultimately your are training yourself into a dead end, there will come a time when you need to go slowly to a terrible hold on steep ground and being able to toe pick a credit card edge and maintain body tension throughout the move is essential. It's unlikely to be something you can just learn on the route unless your prepared to siege it.

In reply to SenzuBean:

You're probably asking too much of the Anasazi guides. They're designed for all day comfort on easier routes; they'll be stiff, insensitive and probably fitting on the large side. With this type of shoe a sharp edge may appear to work but it won't give good performance and won't help your technique.

A pair of soft, close fitting shoes, sensitive enough to allow you to mould your toes into a foothold will give much better performance and enable you to learn much more about technique. And this type of shoe actually works better once the edge has rounded off.

Back in the day, Boreal Ninja's were a revelation for me.

In reply to kenr:


Interesting perspective. I think there's still scope to practice certain aspects of footwork indoors, most especially edging (and foot swapping, accuracy etc).

In reply to alx:


Very interesting - that pretty much describes me. :/ I hurt my lower back recently, and it is probably way too mobile. Hip flexibility dive bombed after the injury, and still hasn't returned (not helped by my habit of wearing canvas trousers). I hadn't thought I might have always been compensating for low hip flexibility with a wonky lower back.

Luckily my hamstrings/calves have long been known to be my weakness and I've been training them for ages. I did an indoor route the other day that none of my mates could do as they couldn't spread their legs enough!


This is pretty much just calf flexibility and core strength?


This pretty much sums up the thread.