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Wow!!! Impressive!
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In reply to Postmanpat:
Indeed. Even has his feet knocked a couple of times, but was never troubled.
Indeed. Even has his feet knocked a couple of times, but was never troubled.
In reply to Postmanpat:
Impressive stuff! The leading pack went too hard too soon even with the last rushes at pole position they couldn't keep up
Impressive stuff! The leading pack went too hard too soon even with the last rushes at pole position they couldn't keep up
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In reply to Postmanpat:
Stunning - has to be favourite for SPOTY. Worlds greatest ever middle distance runner
Stunning - has to be favourite for SPOTY. Worlds greatest ever middle distance runner
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In reply to baron:
And you are one of the people who complains when others apparently disparage Brits!
And you are one of the people who complains when others apparently disparage Brits!
Post edited at 22:32
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In reply to Postmanpat:
Beautiful running.
Hmmm, 10,000m, 10k, = the distance I struggle to run in an hour. Just wow!
Beautiful running.
Hmmm, 10,000m, 10k, = the distance I struggle to run in an hour. Just wow!
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In reply to Postmanpat:
Well worth the edgy feel throughout the race to see the amazing end.He really did not want to be beaten by anyone.
Brilliant. A true spine tingling moment.
Well worth the edgy feel throughout the race to see the amazing end.He really did not want to be beaten by anyone.
Brilliant. A true spine tingling moment.
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In reply to baron: your assessment of Haile Gebresellassie as history's greatest mid/long runner rather than Mo. I don't agree with your assessment, but that's for another thread/time
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In reply to baron:
HG has a slightly better record at 10 k - 2 Olympics and 4 worlds to MF 2 and 3.
But since MF has also got 2 and 3 at 5k, and HG won neither, then if we are playing middle distance top trumps Farah is the card to have !
HG has a slightly better record at 10 k - 2 Olympics and 4 worlds to MF 2 and 3.
But since MF has also got 2 and 3 at 5k, and HG won neither, then if we are playing middle distance top trumps Farah is the card to have !
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In reply to wbo:
That's not disparaging him. It's an opinion based on both athletes very impressive records.
And is obviously open to debate.
Now if I'd said he was rubbish that would be disparaging.
If I said Mr Farah had a 10,000 metre PB that wasn't even close to the world record set years ago, I suppose that could be seen as being disparaging but that's not what I said.
That's not disparaging him. It's an opinion based on both athletes very impressive records.
And is obviously open to debate.
Now if I'd said he was rubbish that would be disparaging.
If I said Mr Farah had a 10,000 metre PB that wasn't even close to the world record set years ago, I suppose that could be seen as being disparaging but that's not what I said.
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In reply to Chris the Tall:
He is a good middle distance runner, being British record holder at 1500m and all that, but 5,000m and 10,000m generally are not considered middle distance.
Greatest ever distance runner? I'd say he has earned the company of the greats; Gebrselassie, Bekele, Zatopek and Nurmi.
He is a good middle distance runner, being British record holder at 1500m and all that, but 5,000m and 10,000m generally are not considered middle distance.
Greatest ever distance runner? I'd say he has earned the company of the greats; Gebrselassie, Bekele, Zatopek and Nurmi.
Post edited at 00:59
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In reply to The New NickB:
This..
He's certainly deserving to be talked in that bracket.
He's a great competitor, contrast with Paula R? He has all the medals but she has a 2:15 marathon, way beyond even top Kenyan dopers..
What she did is unparalleled
> He is a good middle distance runner, being British record holder at 1500m and all that, but 5,000m and 10,000m generally are not considered middle distance.
> Greatest ever distance runner? I'd say he has earned the company of the greats; Gebrselassie, Bekele, Zatopek and Nurmi.
This..
He's certainly deserving to be talked in that bracket.
He's a great competitor, contrast with Paula R? He has all the medals but she has a 2:15 marathon, way beyond even top Kenyan dopers..
What she did is unparalleled
Post edited at 03:46
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In reply to The New NickB:
He rarely runs middle distance, but as for being "good"..... He's actually the European record holder at 1500m, and ranked higher in that event than in his specialities, the 5k & 10k .... (so says the Times today!)
He will never match Bekele's times at 5k & 10k, but he's proved himself the supreme competitor, so to me, unquestionably one of the all-time greats, possibly the greatest. (Bekele beat him by one second in the 2013 great north run, and Farah, generous in defeat, said he felt Bekele's "kick" with a mile to go was "ridiculously fast".....) youtube.com/watch?v=ZG93u_PTfDA&
Last night's race was a truly special moment; one of his best ever, and in London, with the whole stadium going bonkers. Great times..... Sir Mo for SPOTY - please!!!
He rarely runs middle distance, but as for being "good"..... He's actually the European record holder at 1500m, and ranked higher in that event than in his specialities, the 5k & 10k .... (so says the Times today!)
He will never match Bekele's times at 5k & 10k, but he's proved himself the supreme competitor, so to me, unquestionably one of the all-time greats, possibly the greatest. (Bekele beat him by one second in the 2013 great north run, and Farah, generous in defeat, said he felt Bekele's "kick" with a mile to go was "ridiculously fast".....) youtube.com/watch?v=ZG93u_PTfDA&
Last night's race was a truly special moment; one of his best ever, and in London, with the whole stadium going bonkers. Great times..... Sir Mo for SPOTY - please!!!
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In reply to thebigfriendlymoose:
but Neil Black has stared him out and is convinced no cheat...
youtube.com/watch?v=CuEnGTuqjh8&
but Neil Black has stared him out and is convinced no cheat...
youtube.com/watch?v=CuEnGTuqjh8&
Post edited at 11:39
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In reply to The New NickB:
pigeon holing is always difficult, but I thought if I said long distance some pedant would point out his lack of medals at the marathon!
Has any non-sprinter won as many gold medals at Olympics/Worlds? Or dominated two events for as long as he has?
> He is a good middle distance runner, being British record holder at 1500m and all that, but 5,000m and 10,000m generally are not considered middle distance.
pigeon holing is always difficult, but I thought if I said long distance some pedant would point out his lack of medals at the marathon!
Has any non-sprinter won as many gold medals at Olympics/Worlds? Or dominated two events for as long as he has?
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In reply to Phil Murray:
Great tactician as well. Compared to his rivals he paced it more evenly and was in the right position at the right time more consistantly.
Great tactician as well. Compared to his rivals he paced it more evenly and was in the right position at the right time more consistantly.
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In reply to Chris the Tall:
Michael Phelps? Now, be fair, you just said "non-sprinter!
I would say Mo is without doubt the greatest British athlete of all-time and probably has had that status since August 2012.
Michael Phelps? Now, be fair, you just said "non-sprinter!
I would say Mo is without doubt the greatest British athlete of all-time and probably has had that status since August 2012.
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In reply to Postmanpat:
So......will he win the 5,000......
Seems like, if he can get to the last lap in the lead, he will. However, if the Ugandan athlete had been closer to him at the start of the last lap, or in the lead himself, it would have been very close.
So......will he win the 5,000......
Seems like, if he can get to the last lap in the lead, he will. However, if the Ugandan athlete had been closer to him at the start of the last lap, or in the lead himself, it would have been very close.
Post edited at 17:56
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In reply to Chris the Tall:
Redgrave?
> Has any non-sprinter won as many gold medals at Olympics/Worlds? Or dominated two events for as long as he has?
Redgrave?
In reply to Postmanpat: Al Oerter - but that certainly doesn't diminish Mo's a hievements in a very competitive event
> Is Gabby Logan going to a hoedown after work?
Gabby Logan! Ho! Going Down! All in one sentence! I need a cold shower!
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In reply to Phil Murray:
Yes, and when he does run over 1500m against world class athletes, he loses, even when he set that European record he was 3rd in the race. Of course he is a much better middle distance runner than his long distance rivals, which is crucial and why he wins races.
Whilst Farah and Bekele are quite close in age, there greatness at track distance events came a number of years apart, making realistic comparisons difficult. Bekele's XC domination is also hard to ignore. Farah has of course beat all competition for 6 years.
As I said, it puts him in the company of the greats. I can pay no greater compliment.
> He rarely runs middle distance, but as for being "good"..... He's actually the European record holder at 1500m, and ranked higher in that event than in his specialities, the 5k & 10k .... (so says the Times today!)
Yes, and when he does run over 1500m against world class athletes, he loses, even when he set that European record he was 3rd in the race. Of course he is a much better middle distance runner than his long distance rivals, which is crucial and why he wins races.
> He will never match Bekele's times at 5k & 10k, but he's proved himself the supreme competitor, so to me, unquestionably one of the all-time greats, possibly the greatest. (Bekele beat him by one second in the 2013 great north run, and Farah, generous in defeat, said he felt Bekele's "kick" with a mile to go was "ridiculously fast".....) youtube.com/watch?v=ZG93u_PTfDA&
Whilst Farah and Bekele are quite close in age, there greatness at track distance events came a number of years apart, making realistic comparisons difficult. Bekele's XC domination is also hard to ignore. Farah has of course beat all competition for 6 years.
> Last night's race was a truly special moment; one of his best ever, and in London, with the whole stadium going bonkers. Great times..... Sir Mo for SPOTY - please!!!
As I said, it puts him in the company of the greats. I can pay no greater compliment.
Post edited at 22:37
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In reply to Hugh J:
Sadly I understand he is now leaving the UK to live full time in America, so, if true any talented children he has ,will( probably) not be competing for the UK.
> I would say Mo is without doubt the greatest British athlete of all-time and probably has had that status since August 2012.
Sadly I understand he is now leaving the UK to live full time in America, so, if true any talented children he has ,will( probably) not be competing for the UK.
Post edited at 08:01
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In reply to Jim C:
Yes, people leave the UK. It's no longer the greatest nation on Earth.
Mo Farrah loves in California.
Chris Froome lives in Monaco.
Lewis Hamilton also lives in Monaco.
And Hugh J lives in Brittany, but all of them consider themselves to be British.
Yes, people leave the UK. It's no longer the greatest nation on Earth.
Mo Farrah loves in California.
Chris Froome lives in Monaco.
Lewis Hamilton also lives in Monaco.
And Hugh J lives in Brittany, but all of them consider themselves to be British.
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In reply to Hugh J:
Sure people move, and it is obvious that if his family had not moved to the U.K. MO would not have been representing and winning for the UK.
My point is simply that it may be a sad loss to the UK (if Mo's kids are talented athletes) , and are brought up in the US ,then THEY may not see themselves as British, and may not want to run for Britain. Time will tell.
Sure people move, and it is obvious that if his family had not moved to the U.K. MO would not have been representing and winning for the UK.
My point is simply that it may be a sad loss to the UK (if Mo's kids are talented athletes) , and are brought up in the US ,then THEY may not see themselves as British, and may not want to run for Britain. Time will tell.
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In reply to Hugh J:
Well for sure they all seem to have more pride In the U.K. than you do.
> Yes, people leave the UK. It's no longer the greatest nation on Earth.
Well for sure they all seem to have more pride In the U.K. than you do.
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In reply to Hugh J:
It's Farah, with one r, and he lives in Oregon, not California.
> Yes, people leave the UK. It's no longer the greatest nation on Earth.
> Mo Farrah loves in California.
It's Farah, with one r, and he lives in Oregon, not California.
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In reply to Jim C:
You don't know that.
His kids can pick.
> Sadly I understand he is now leaving the UK to live full time in America, so, if true any talented children he has ,will( probably) not be competing for the UK.
You don't know that.
His kids can pick.
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In reply to Jim C:
You're right, I have no particular pride in being British, it just a place where my parents f*cked.
You're right, I have no particular pride in being British, it just a place where my parents f*cked.
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In reply to Hugh J:
Have a like
> You're right, I have no particular pride in being British, it just a place where my parents f*cked.
Have a like
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In reply to Roadrunner5:
True, but if they are talented enough to make it into the USA team, there is a good chance they would go for that option.
( however, if they miss out on the US team they may go for option 2 ( UK)
I'l be dead before this plays out, so I'm not losing too much sleep over it.
> You don't know that.
> His kids can pick.
True, but if they are talented enough to make it into the USA team, there is a good chance they would go for that option.
( however, if they miss out on the US team they may go for option 2 ( UK)
I'l be dead before this plays out, so I'm not losing too much sleep over it.
Post edited at 19:20
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In reply to Jim C: Its very hard to say - Mo very much indentifies as being British, and I guess his kids would too. I wouldn't be especially surprised if he retired to Portland as he's trained there a while, and will like it, have a connection, and he's hardly the first British athlete to retire to the US (though it's usually Colorado).
In reply to Postmanpat:
Great win for Mo, although I have to admit I found myself cheering for that chap Cheptegei in the final stages - such a perfect runner, and much less bemedalled.
And then there're the doping suspicions, which are extremely dodgy.
Great win for Mo, although I have to admit I found myself cheering for that chap Cheptegei in the final stages - such a perfect runner, and much less bemedalled.
And then there're the doping suspicions, which are extremely dodgy.
Post edited at 11:33
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In reply to The New NickB:
Middle distance has always included ALL distances from 1/2 mile to 1/2 marathon.
1/2 mile (or rather nowadays 800 metres) and Mile/1500 regarding as "short" middle distance, 10 mile and 1/2 marathon as "long" middle distance.
Cross Country (generally from 6 to 9 miles for Senior Men) fitted right in that.
Of course, the old AAA's and the current UKA coaching points where you differentiate between sprints, middle distance and long distance could all be wrong, and you are the only one who knows what is right.
> but 5,000m and 10,000m generally are not considered middle distance.
Middle distance has always included ALL distances from 1/2 mile to 1/2 marathon.
1/2 mile (or rather nowadays 800 metres) and Mile/1500 regarding as "short" middle distance, 10 mile and 1/2 marathon as "long" middle distance.
Cross Country (generally from 6 to 9 miles for Senior Men) fitted right in that.
Of course, the old AAA's and the current UKA coaching points where you differentiate between sprints, middle distance and long distance could all be wrong, and you are the only one who knows what is right.
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In reply to fred99:
If I am wrong, its me and a lot of people in the sport.
Why don't you provide a reference!
I've been trying to find a reference that supports your suggestion, even slightly, and I have not been able to. I have however found dozens that tell me that middle distance is 800m-3000m, with of course the 800m and the 1500m being the classic middle distance double.
If I am wrong, its me and a lot of people in the sport.
Why don't you provide a reference!
I've been trying to find a reference that supports your suggestion, even slightly, and I have not been able to. I have however found dozens that tell me that middle distance is 800m-3000m, with of course the 800m and the 1500m being the classic middle distance double.
Post edited at 13:30
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In reply to The New NickB:
Here's a reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle-distance_running
"Middle-distance running events are track races longer than sprints, up to 3000 metres."
Here's a reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle-distance_running
"Middle-distance running events are track races longer than sprints, up to 3000 metres."
In reply to The New NickB:
I've never considered 5000 and 10000 to be middle-distance. Noticeable that Brendan Foster always refers to distance running in his commentaries.
I've never considered 5000 and 10000 to be middle-distance. Noticeable that Brendan Foster always refers to distance running in his commentaries.
In reply to john arran:
Thanks John, funnily enough I was watching you on the TV last night, whilst I was waiting for the evening session of the Athletics to start.
Thanks John, funnily enough I was watching you on the TV last night, whilst I was waiting for the evening session of the Athletics to start.
In reply to Yanis Nayu:
But 100m is a distance !
If 5K if long distance then how do you class a marathon - Hard Very Long Distance ?
Having said that my guess is that the 3 combos - 100/200, 800/1500 and 5k/10k - are far more common than any other combos, so maybe pigeon-holing as short, middle and long distance is appropriate. My apologies for my original mistake which seems to have fired off this debate !
> I've never considered 5000 and 10000 to be middle-distance. Noticeable that Brendan Foster always refers to distance running in his commentaries.
But 100m is a distance !
If 5K if long distance then how do you class a marathon - Hard Very Long Distance ?
Having said that my guess is that the 3 combos - 100/200, 800/1500 and 5k/10k - are far more common than any other combos, so maybe pigeon-holing as short, middle and long distance is appropriate. My apologies for my original mistake which seems to have fired off this debate !
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In reply to Chris the Tall:
In Championship terms the Marathon would be considered a long distance event, Zatopek did the long distance Olympic treble of 5000m, 10000m and Marathon in 1952. Obviously major championships don't race beyond the marathon, but anything longer than a marathon is considered an ultra distance event.
Farah has a mix of qualities, the endurance of world class distance runner, with the finishing speed of a world class middle distance runner. Which is why he wins at 5000m and 10000m. Will be very interesting to see how he gets on at the marathon, although I'm more excited about Callum Hawkins.
In Championship terms the Marathon would be considered a long distance event, Zatopek did the long distance Olympic treble of 5000m, 10000m and Marathon in 1952. Obviously major championships don't race beyond the marathon, but anything longer than a marathon is considered an ultra distance event.
Farah has a mix of qualities, the endurance of world class distance runner, with the finishing speed of a world class middle distance runner. Which is why he wins at 5000m and 10000m. Will be very interesting to see how he gets on at the marathon, although I'm more excited about Callum Hawkins.
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In reply to Chris the Tall:
Part of the reason for those combos being popular will be down to event scheduling in major championships.
Part of the reason for those combos being popular will be down to event scheduling in major championships.
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In reply to Michael Hood: a very large part of the reasoning for event scheduling is to make those combo's possible
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In reply to wbo:
Yes, don't think I expressed myself well. Other combos are usually more difficult because of the scheduling for the popular combos.
Yes, don't think I expressed myself well. Other combos are usually more difficult because of the scheduling for the popular combos.
In reply to The New NickB:
I am a UKAthletics qualified Middle Distance Coach.
The events that I am officially qualified (and insured) to coach range from 800 metres to Half Marathon, plus Steeplechase.
I was also a fairly successful Middle Distance runner in the late 70's/early 80's, up to and including medalling at the AAA's.
Will that do !
> Why don't you provide a reference!
I am a UKAthletics qualified Middle Distance Coach.
The events that I am officially qualified (and insured) to coach range from 800 metres to Half Marathon, plus Steeplechase.
I was also a fairly successful Middle Distance runner in the late 70's/early 80's, up to and including medalling at the AAA's.
Will that do !
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In reply to Chris the Tall:
Laura Muir is doubling 1500/5k at the World's.
Over the years I have seen this as a fairly common pairing - if you actually try running a competitive 10k (by which I mean running at a good pace - sub 30 minutes for men), particularly on the track, you'll find that psychologically it's quite a jump.
It took me 2 or 3 seasons before I could deal with a 10k track race properly, whilst 10k was easy to do on the road or country.
> Having said that my guess is that the 3 combos - 100/200, 800/1500 and 5k/10k - are far more common than any other combos, so maybe pigeon-holing as short, middle and long distance is appropriate. My apologies for my original mistake which seems to have fired off this debate !
Laura Muir is doubling 1500/5k at the World's.
Over the years I have seen this as a fairly common pairing - if you actually try running a competitive 10k (by which I mean running at a good pace - sub 30 minutes for men), particularly on the track, you'll find that psychologically it's quite a jump.
It took me 2 or 3 seasons before I could deal with a 10k track race properly, whilst 10k was easy to do on the road or country.
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In reply to fred99:
Ok, show me a more accurate source - that isn't simply your personal opinion.
> Wikipedia is not altogether renowned for complete accuracy.
Ok, show me a more accurate source - that isn't simply your personal opinion.
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In reply to fred99:
Is the IAAF authoritative enough for you?
https://www.iaaf.org/news/news/athletics-middle-distance-2016-review
Is the IAAF authoritative enough for you?
https://www.iaaf.org/news/news/athletics-middle-distance-2016-review
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In reply to Postmanpat: I have never included 5k and 10k as middle distance, and I've also got a nice collection of medals inc. 3aaa's and southerners.
Do British Athletic. really state that ? People like Peter Coe, Horwill wouldn't agree at all. There is a cross over at about 3k in how these races are run
Do British Athletic. really state that ? People like Peter Coe, Horwill wouldn't agree at all. There is a cross over at about 3k in how these races are run
In reply to wbo:
No, Fred is talking rubbish. Middle distance and distance coaches are simply referred to as endurance coaches by UKA, although clearly individual coaches will have different specialisms.
> I have never included 5k and 10k as middle distance, and I've also got a nice collection of medals inc. 3aaa's and southerners.
> Do British Athletic. really state that ? People like Peter Coe, Horwill wouldn't agree at all. There is a cross over at about 3k in how these races are run
No, Fred is talking rubbish. Middle distance and distance coaches are simply referred to as endurance coaches by UKA, although clearly individual coaches will have different specialisms.
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In reply to Postmanpat:
Not quite the perfect ending to his track career, but there is a nice symmetry to the fact that he ended with a gold and silver
Great race, thought Farah was going to get Britains umpteenth 4th place but he battled through for second place
And silver in women's relay
Not quite the perfect ending to his track career, but there is a nice symmetry to the fact that he ended with a gold and silver
Great race, thought Farah was going to get Britains umpteenth 4th place but he battled through for second place
And silver in women's relay
In reply to Postmanpat:
Wow !! Gold in the men's relay. A very bittersweet win given bolts injury - always going to be a question as to whether he would have closed the gap - but so good to beat the yanks.
Wow !! Gold in the men's relay. A very bittersweet win given bolts injury - always going to be a question as to whether he would have closed the gap - but so good to beat the yanks.
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In reply to Chris the Tall:
> always going to be a question.....
I think the time means there should (I hope) be no question over the validityPost edited at 22:17
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Amazing achievement. I don't think Bolt would have closed, but desperately sad to see it end like that for him. A demonstration of how cruel sport can be.
Usain Bolt - thanks for the memories.
Amazing achievement. I don't think Bolt would have closed, but desperately sad to see it end like that for him. A demonstration of how cruel sport can be.
Usain Bolt - thanks for the memories.
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In reply to Tyler:
Validity? Don't know about you but I was sat there after both races expecting to hear those dreaded but oh so familiar words - 'And we are just hearing that the British team have been disqualified'
Validity? Don't know about you but I was sat there after both races expecting to hear those dreaded but oh so familiar words - 'And we are just hearing that the British team have been disqualified'
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In reply to Chris the Tall: actually theres no question at all. He didn't close the gap - he got injured. Nobody pushed him, obstructed him. He didn't crash, fall over. He pushed his body too hard and it broke and he didn't close the gap.
What iffery not required as there weren't any unusual circumstances
What iffery not required as there weren't any unusual circumstances
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In reply to Chris the Tall:
Me too. Watched the replays through my fingers.
The women's 4x100 did brilliantly too. I think the future is bright for British athletics.
Have to say, it's been a strange championships but I've really enjoyed it.
> Validity? Don't know about you but I was sat there after both races expecting to hear those dreaded but oh so familiar words - 'And we are just hearing that the British team have been disqualified'
Me too. Watched the replays through my fingers.
The women's 4x100 did brilliantly too. I think the future is bright for British athletics.
Have to say, it's been a strange championships but I've really enjoyed it.
In reply to wbo:
Though a seasoned follower of football might uncharitably wonder if he took a dive to save face
> What iffery not required as there weren't any unusual circumstances
Though a seasoned follower of football might uncharitably wonder if he took a dive to save face
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In reply to nufkin:
No chance.
> Though a seasoned follower of football might uncharitably wonder if he took a dive to save face
No chance.
In reply to nufkin:
Such a thought would say far more about the football follower than it would say about the gentleman in question.
> Though a seasoned follower of football might uncharitably wonder if he took a dive to save face
Such a thought would say far more about the football follower than it would say about the gentleman in question.
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In reply to Postmanpat:
I thought the way that he dealt with the paparazzi today, that had cast aspersions on his integrity, was both immaculate and genius.
I thought the way that he dealt with the paparazzi today, that had cast aspersions on his integrity, was both immaculate and genius.
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In reply to wbo:
Retiring only from track events, he will be living in the US but still competing in marathons ( and very lucrative it will be for him too if he does well )
> Its very hard to say - Mo very much indentifies as being British, and I guess his kids would too. I wouldn't be especially surprised if he retired to Portland as he's trained there a while, and will like it, have a connection, and he's hardly the first British athlete to retire to the US (though it's usually Colorado).
Retiring only from track events, he will be living in the US but still competing in marathons ( and very lucrative it will be for him too if he does well )
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In reply to Yanis Nayu:
Good - it's much more encouraging to think he cramped up from going all-out one last time
> No chance.
Good - it's much more encouraging to think he cramped up from going all-out one last time
In reply to Dave the Rave:
What photos, where?
> I thought the way that he dealt with the paparazzi today, that had cast aspersions on his integrity, was both immaculate and genius.
What photos, where?
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In reply to Hugh J:
I'd still go with Coe for his world records and the fact that he had to beat Ovett for his medals.
> I would say Mo is without doubt the greatest British athlete of all-time and probably has had that status since August 2012.
I'd still go with Coe for his world records and the fact that he had to beat Ovett for his medals.
Post edited at 10:26
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