/ Is Ruth Davidson the future of Scottish politics?

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estivoautumnal - on 06 Sep 2017
Or not?

Is she the best thing since sliced plain bread?

Now that the independence ship has well and truly sailed where do we (Scots) look for our political future?

Will a Scottish Corbinista revive the fortunes of the Labour party North of the border, and who will win the battle for the working class vote?

Are the Lib Dems relevant in Scottish politics now that the Scottish Torries are filling both the middle and right grounds?

Answers on a postcard please.
5
Lamb - on 06 Sep 2017
In reply to estivoautumnal:

Please tell me this is a terrible troll or do you just have the political nous of Murdo Fraser?
4
Eric9Points - on 06 Sep 2017
In reply to estivoautumnal:



> Are the Lib Dems relevant in Scottish politics now that the Scottish Torries are filling both the middle and right grounds?

The Lib Dems are an irrelevance.

The SNP are in a hard fight with the tories for the souls of the middle class. However the tories have maxed out on their Westminster seats. It is Labour who the SNP fear.
http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/brian-monteith-nicola-sturgeon-s-nightmare-scenar...

The future? Labour under Richard Leonard.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41140402
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msp1987 - on 06 Sep 2017
In reply to estivoautumnal:

Richard Leonard would be a great leader of Scottish Labour. I remember hearing him speak at various 'Socialism First' meetings during the independence referendum. He was able to give the best class based analysis on why we should remain part of the UK. Will is accent be a problem to Scottish voters? Maybe to the more 'nationalist' SNP voters but probably not to the population as a whole.

I would have liked a woman to stand for the leadership but if its between Anas Sarwar and Richard Leonard it is a no brainer.

Labour really has a chance to revive its fortunes in Scotland. By electing a leader who shares Jeremy Corbyns ideological outlook we can attempt to create a country for the many not the few.
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estivoautumnal - on 06 Sep 2017
In reply to Lamb:

> Please tell me this is a terrible troll or do you just have the political nous of Murdo Fraser?

Do you mean the Murdo Fraser who has been in office since 2001?
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Lamb - on 07 Sep 2017
In reply to estivoautumnal:

Yes indeed I do. A man with a sixteen year career in the Scottish parliament without once winning a single election.

A king of rejects I say.
The Lemming - on 07 Sep 2017
In reply to estivoautumnal:

I don't think that the Conservatives will ever do anything untoward for the Scottish people.

The Scottish have long memories and I am sure they can recall events going back beyond 30 years or so when the Conservatives were in power and how they treated those North of the border.
summo on 07 Sep 2017
In reply to estivoautumnal:

No.

The SNP have just stolen old Labour's mantra by promising to spend money on services they don't have.
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Big Ger - on 07 Sep 2017
In reply to estivoautumnal:

I think she has high potential.
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RomTheBear on 07 Sep 2017
In reply to summo:
> No.

> The SNP have just stolen old Labour's mantra by promising to spend money on services they don't have.

- The Scottish Government has, by law, to set and deliver a balanced budget each year.
- Nicola sturgeon annonced that she wanted to consider raising taxes to pay for the extra spending :
https://www.google.com.cy/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/05/nicola-sturgeon-time-is-rig...
Post edited at 08:33
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pebbles - on 07 Sep 2017
RomTheBear on 07 Sep 2017
In reply to estivoautumnal:

> Or not?

> Is she the best thing since sliced plain bread?

> Now that the independence ship has well and truly sailed where do we (Scots) look for our political future?

> Will a Scottish Corbinista revive the fortunes of the Labour party North of the border, and who will win the battle for the working class vote?

> Are the Lib Dems relevant in Scottish politics now that the Scottish Torries are filling both the middle and right grounds?

> Answers on a postcard please.

If I ever had to be forced to vote for a Tory, it'll be Ruth, and purely strategically, I'd vote for her if it was against a Corbynista.
However I'm disappointed to see that she systematically rolls over to the government of bigots in n10.
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summo on 07 Sep 2017
In reply to RomTheBear:

> - The Scottish Government has, by law, to set and deliver a balanced budget each year.

Wrong. It is allowed to borrow and does. There is a borrowing cap, with thresholds, but their borrowing is increasing.

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RomTheBear on 07 Sep 2017
In reply to summo:
> Wrong. It is allowed to borrow and does. There is a borrowing cap, with thresholds, but their borrowing is increasing.

No, what I've said is perfectly correct.

From the Scottish government website :

"The Scottish Government has to set and deliver a balanced budget each year."

https://beta.gov.scot/publications/scotlands-finances-key-facts-figures/

They do have limited borrowing powers, but that doesn't change their requirement to have a balanced budget.

A balanced budget means that spending and revenue must match.
Post edited at 10:38
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drunken monkey - on 07 Sep 2017
In reply to estivoautumnal:

Murdo Fraser is a complete and utter failure who's been rejected 6 times at the ballot box and only got in via the list vote.
summo on 07 Sep 2017
In reply to RomTheBear:

> No, what I've said is perfectly correct.
> They do have limited borrowing powers, but that doesn't change their requirement to have a balanced budget.
> A balanced budget means that spending and revenue must match.

But that's like saying I've balanced the budget every year, by borrowing a few billion! To anyone else balanced means you didn't need to borrow. Revenue can't included borrowing, they are totally different sources.

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tony on 07 Sep 2017
In reply to RomTheBear:

> A balanced budget means that spending and revenue must match.

But the revenue figures include an amount of borrowing. The 2017/18 budget specifies capital borrowing limits of £3 billion, with an annual cap of £450 million.

Anyway, back on topic, Ruth Davidson isn't the future of Scottish politics. She still represents the party of low tax and reduced public spending, which is some way from being in accord with the prevailing ideas in Scotland. We do, remarkably, have a government which recognises that high levels of state benefits such as free prescriptions, free dental care, no tuition fees and so do need a higher tax base. When RD opposes the proposals for increasing income tax as she surely will, she'll have to explain what cuts she needs to meet the existing tax base.

The Tory success in Scotland at the general election was remarkable, but much of it was influenced by Brexit and the SNP stance. The result of the Labour leadership election will have a part to play in the way the Tory support grows or weakens, but without another election for a few years, there's not a lot RD can do to capitalise on the general election success.
skog on 07 Sep 2017
In reply to estivoautumnal:
The Tories have only seen their current level of success in Scotland (note: that "success" is a mere 22% of the Westminster seats, and 24% of the Holyrood seats) by managing to convince large parts of the population that they are the party they need to vote for to oppose Scottish independence.

If, as you assert, "the independence ship has well and truly sailed", the Scottish Tories are well and truly f*cked.
Post edited at 11:07
RomTheBear on 07 Sep 2017
In reply to tony:

> But the revenue figures include an amount of borrowing. The 2017/18 budget specifies capital borrowing limits of £3 billion, with an annual cap of £450 million.

Net borrowing, yes.
But that's not what I've said.

> Anyway, back on topic, Ruth Davidson isn't the future of Scottish politics. She still represents the party of low tax and reduced public spending, which is some way from being in accord with the prevailing ideas in Scotland. We do, remarkably, have a government which recognises that high levels of state benefits such as free prescriptions, free dental care, no tuition fees and so do need a higher tax base. When RD opposes the proposals for increasing income tax as she surely will, she'll have to explain what cuts she needs to meet the existing tax base.

> The Tory success in Scotland at the general election was remarkable, but much of it was influenced by Brexit and the SNP stance. The result of the Labour leadership election will have a part to play in the way the Tory support grows or weakens, but without another election for a few years, there's not a lot RD can do to capitalise on the general election success.

Completely agree with all of the above.

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GRUMPY MONKEY - on 07 Sep 2017
In reply to estivoautumnal:

I think the increase in conservative representatives in Scotland was due to a number of factors: ruth is personable (but lacks substance), the farmers and fishermen in the North and South perceive the conservatives as the best party to represent their interests in a post brexit Uk, they corraled the anti independence vote and the snp always get squeezed in a general election as it's a two horse race.

I was disappointed by Ruth's cabinet visit after the election. She went to London and sought assurances that gay marriage would not be repealed in the wake of a deal with the udp. Now as a Gay woman myself I would be rioting in the streets if civil rights were repealed. However realistically this was not going to happen. As she was in favour of remaining in Europe she could have gone to the cabinet and requested concessions for scotland, or for Euro powers to be returned to Scotland etc. Which would have shown that she was working in Scotland's best interests and would have increased her support. But I think she missed the boat. If she stood as an mp rather than an msp she could go somewhere in the conservative party. But under her leadership the conservatives are a one issue party (no to independence). She focuses her attention on attacking the snp and publicity stunts rather than policy and governance.

I think Labour in Scotland is dead. The snp now occupy the centre left. I think they made some gains in the general election as coryben is more in line with the scottish traditional labour voter. But he will never win in england. With theresa may absent from the last general election, we had a one horse race and he still couldn't win.

The media's portrayal of the election result as a vote against independence is poorly informed. The tremendous result a couple years prior was due to yes voters en mass flocking to the snp. Some have now trickled back to their previous party allegiance due to the factors mentioned above.

Regardless of the shortcomings of politicians and there parties, the election results show that there is still a significant proportion of the population who are committed to independence and who believe the snp are the only party capable of governing Scotland at the present time. After more than 10 years In government the snp are consistently winning 40-50% of the vote share. Thats pretty impressive, given that party support usually declines when in power.
rogerwebb - on 07 Sep 2017
In reply to drunken monkey:

> Murdo Fraser is a complete and utter failure who's been rejected 6 times at the ballot box and only got in via the list vote.

A bit unfair unless you are not in favour of proportional representation and consider 56 members of the Scottish Parliament to be unelected.
A number which included Nicola Sturgeon until 2007.

The list system may not be perfect but I think it is an improvement on straight first past the post.

(still not voting for him though)
tom_in_edinburgh - on 07 Sep 2017
In reply to estivoautumnal:

> Now that the independence ship has well and truly sailed where do we (Scots) look for our political future?

You wish. Everything is still in play and people are only going to get more disgusted with rule by Westminster over the next few years. Labour are incompetent and the Tories are incompetent and immoral.

The only ship that sailed this week is the unionist promise during the independence referendum of a 'Frigate Factory' on the Clyde.
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Scott K - on 08 Sep 2017
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Completely agree, the only party more incompetent are the SNP.
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gilliesp on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to estivoautumnal:

You shouldn't believe everything you get from MSM. The good ship Independence hasn't sailed anywhere far from us. Ruth is an abhorrent politician and indeed, I would suggest, person and certainly isn't the best thing since sliced anything. Sounds like your future, political or otherwise, lies with Westminster rule but for the rest of us - decent Scots in a resource rich country, neither too wee, too poor and too stupid - our destiny is embedded in an independent future. Have you read the McCrone Report? From which "document gave a highly favourable projection for the economy of an independent Scotland "...buried by the baddies until now! Sir Mervyn King, former Bank of England governer, on Newsnight commenting on our currency after independence amounting to....Nae bother, nae problem, Scotland will obviously make it. When you are enslaved and screwed over for 300 years you massa will fight dirty to keep you cos you are an asset worthy of continued bleeding!
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Dr.S at work - on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to gilliesp:

> Scotland will obviously make it. When you are enslaved and screwed over for 300 years you massa will fight dirty to
> keep you cos you are an asset worthy of continued bleeding!


I think that to compare the act of Union with the genocide of the transatlantic slave trade is slightly overegging the pudding.




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baron - on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to gilliesp:

Didn't Scots join the Union because they'd lost all their money in some dodgy land deal?
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rogerwebb - on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to gilliesp:

> but for the rest of us - decent Scots in a resource rich country, neither too wee, too poor and too stupid - our destiny is embedded in an independent future.

Are those of us who don't agree with independence not decent Scots?
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Lusk - on 09 Sep 2017
tom_in_edinburgh - on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to baron:

> Didn't Scots join the Union because they'd lost all their money in some dodgy land deal?

The English bribed Scots nobles, notably the Earl of Queensberry who had lost money on the Darien scheme to push it through. They were nearly lynched by the townspeople of Edinburgh.

What force or guile could not subdue,
Thro' many warlike ages,
Is wrought now by a coward few,
For hireling traitor's wages.
The English stell we could disdain,
Secure in valour's station;
But English gold has been our bane-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!
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Lusk - on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Who said the Scottish have got a chip on their shoulder?
You're still banging on about things that happened centuries ago.
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tom_in_edinburgh - on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to Lusk:
> You're still banging on about things that happened centuries ago.

Happened centuries ago, happened decades ago and are still happening today.

Westminster does not govern in the interests of Scotland and never has done.
Post edited at 01:05
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Dr.S at work - on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> The Anglo-Norman nobles who ruled England bribed the Anglo-Norman nobles who ruled Scotland, >notably the Earl of Queensberry who had lost money on the Darien scheme to push it through. They were >nearly lynched by the townspeople of Edinburgh.

FTFY

Certainly back at that time Westminster did not do things in the interest of England or Scotland, but for a tiny ruling elite, headed by a Scottish king.
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Jim C - on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to baron:

> Didn't Scots join the Union because they'd lost all their money in some dodgy land deal?

Some would argue was entrapment, the English invested, then pulled the rug causing the scheme to collapse leaving them as the lender of last resort.
off-duty - on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to rogerwebb:

> Are those of us who don't agree with independence not decent Scots?

It's always (un)surprising how quickly the unpleasant nationalism that lies just below the surface slips out.
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Robert Durran - on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to off-duty:

> It's always (un)surprising how quickly the unpleasant nationalism that lies just below the surface slips out.

Yes, it is unfortunate because there is a big majority of decent nationalists whose views I can disagree with while still respecting them. This inward looking and unsavoury minority is a odds with the vision of an outward looking independent Scotland in Europe should be disowned by the SNP leadership.

As for Ruth Davidson, I think that she is, like Nicola Sturgeon, a decent person whose politics I generally don't share. Being a conservative in Scotland, she will never yield real power (and is therefore not the future of politics in Scotland), but, as a unionist rallying point, she has an important role to play in the meantime.
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rogerwebb - on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

Well put.
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tom_in_edinburgh - on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to rogerwebb:

I think Ruth Davidson is about as good as you can get as a Tory leader in Scotland. After Independence if she was leader of a right of centre party in Scotland I might even think of voting for her. But that's not where we are and we have just seen with Labour vs Scottish Labour that the Westminster party is still calling the shots and will fix things against leaders they don't like or who stray too far from the party line.

The test for Ruth Davidson will be Brexit. It is clear the Scots don't want Brexit at all never mind hard Brexit but will she be wiling to tell the Scottish Tory MPs to vote against the government when necessary to block leaving the single market and force a soft Brexit. I don't think she has the guts for it, in which case she is a waste of space as regards representing Scotland.
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rogerwebb - on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

I think you are probably right on both points but I hope you are wrong on the second.
Coel Hellier - on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> It is clear the Scots don't want Brexit at all never mind hard Brexit but will she be wiling to tell the Scottish Tory MPs to vote against the government ...

38% of Scots voted for Brexit, and thus 100% of Scottish MPs should oppose Brexit?
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gilliesp on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Tom, you are wasting your time with these arse-licking Tory trolls on here. They are biased revisionists and thankfully in a peaked minority in Scotland. Disability, bedroom tax, rape clause...they're above all that and couldn't give two hoots (being polite here) about those they've decided are beneath them ie the majority of us.
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Hyphin - on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to estivoautumnal:

Is Ruth Davidson the future of Scottish politics

F*ckin hope not.
tom_in_edinburgh - on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to Coel Hellier:

> 38% of Scots voted for Brexit, and thus 100% of Scottish MPs should oppose Brexit?

Ruth Davidson is/was a remainer and said after the election she would use Scottish Tory MPs to stop hard Brexit and force attention on trade and the economy rather than immigration. Has she got the guts to do it? It is about whether Scottish Tory MPs take their orders from Edinburgh or London.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ruth-davidson-conservatives-scottish-tory-brexit-negot...
rogerwebb - on 11 Sep 2017
In reply to gilliesp:

> Tom, you are wasting your time with these arse-licking Tory trolls on here.

Who would they be?
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fred99 - on 11 Sep 2017
In reply to Jim C:

> Some would argue was entrapment, the English invested, then pulled the rug causing the scheme to collapse leaving them as the lender of last resort.

If you look up the facts, you'll find that the opposition of Spain to someone setting up a colony in what they regarded as "their" land was somewhat pertinent.
Of course, England could have gone to war with Spain to help the Darien colonists out, but they were dying of malaria and other tropical diseases, so it wouldn't have been a particularly sensible option.
The location was a sh*thole, and is virtually uninhabited even now.
drunken monkey - on 11 Sep 2017
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Ruth Davidson is a shitebag who's changed her mind more times than the weather.

I'll maybe respect her one iota if she stands up for the people of Scotland and against Brexit
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RomTheBear on 11 Sep 2017
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> Ruth Davidson is/was a remainer and said after the election she would use Scottish Tory MPs to stop hard Brexit and force attention on trade and the economy rather than immigration. Has she got the guts to do it? It is about whether Scottish Tory MPs take their orders from Edinburgh or London.

But she'll probably never do so, and hasn't done so. She would have nothing to gain from it either, and everything to lose.
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drunken monkey - on 12 Sep 2017
In reply to Coel Hellier:

Every constituency in Scotland voted remain - therefore every MP in Scotland should represent the majority of their constituents and oppose Brexit.
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