UKC

Checkout Andy's Instagram feed before buying, you might be into his values or then again not!

I hope Peter Hook and the rest of the lads from Joy Division don't find out...

Then again, what's the point in only reading things you agree with all the time?

Oh sure, but there are lots of things I'm challenged by that I'm interested in reading about. I'm not sure that the Philosophy according to Andy Kirkpatrick is particularly high on that list when compared to, say, Milton Friedman. (Sorry Andy - I loved Cold Wars but this stuff just doesn't float my boat).

Hooky seems like the odd court battle!

Is this new material from Andy or a re-selection of old?

A work in progress like everyones elses's I'd assume. 

D

You can call it what you want, but I wouldn't want a bean of mine going his way. 

Serious question: What is it that you object to? I glance at his blog sometimes and have read a couple of his books. He seems reasonably ok to me.

I'm sure Ian can answer for himself, but for me a low point was Andy's retweeting of a Canadian internet shock-jock who claimed that Black Mirror and Rogue One were ruined and would be failures because there were too many black and Asian people in them. I've asked him whether he agrees with this argument many times, for which I've been called a troll, a concentration camp guard, etc, but the best he has come up with is "I like this edgy humour".

His blog post saying that women had to get used to being cat-called when they were out running as it was just part of the human condition was another all time high.

He'll probably be along in a moment to call me a cultural Marxist or a postmodern puritan, or whatever phrase he's learnt off the internet this week.

So no, not a bean, and not a bean to Montane either as long as they've got him on their books (which is a shame as their gear is good!).

Edit: I like his writing on climbing and his gear stuff is often really useful, even tho big mountains aren't my thing.

His Instagram account is not in the same vein.

It is political and not nuanced. Alt Right perhaps? Not Left, not anywhere near. Or PC? Forget it.

I read what Andy KP posts on facebook and for what it's worth I think he's still worth a read. His departures into the political (or perhaps cultural; there seems to be little separation) are sometimes alarming; there have been a number of times I've spotted something he's posted, thought 'Oh no Andy, please don't become that guy', had a read of whatever he's linked to and realised that it's never as radical as it seems, it's never as simple as it seems and that often it makes more sense (not just emotionally but logically) than the 'party line'. I've seen and read plenty of stuff he's posted that I've disagreed with but I can usually see where (in my eyes) he's got the wrong end of a stick.

If Andy KP wanted to be the darling of the climbing world, he could. All he'd have to do is write nice blogs about how he's so impressed by women climbing big walls and how he recycles his teabags. Instead he writes blogs asking why so few women are climbing big walls when they had Lynn Hill to show them the way and about how to tinker with your petrol stove to make it work better at altitude. Maybe it's that tinkerers brain, his interest in really understanding how (and indeed if) something works that makes him objectionable to people who simply accept that it is so and clap along.

(Not in any way saying that Kenny or Ian fall into this category, as per his post Kenny obviously has his own reasons for objecting to KP. Having not seen either of the things he mentions I can't comment.)

If KP wanted to appeal to the alt right, the gun-toters, the military-worshippers (for financial gain, fame, because it'd be there for the taking) he could do that too, by towing their line. 

To anyone wondering whether to dismiss KP as a peddler of offensive pictures and shocking views, have a read of his stuff-a good read, not just a flick through-and decide for yourselves. And then read the comments on his Instagram (he get's into some good arguments). I'd second Ian's advice that you check out his Insta feed before you buy. I do think KP misses the mark sometimes (and then by miles) but I don't find it horrifying enough to dismiss everything else.

R

P.S. I still think The Usual Suspects is a good movie though, even though it has Kevin Spacey in it.

Ha just saw on fb that in the about me section he has put 'Highly functioning narcissist, multi award winning stud & bighead'

I also remember the tagline from somewhere 'Hulls second best climber'

Rumour has it that Unknown Pleasures will be a users guide to winding up UKC.

Good post, and I agree that a lot of what Andy says deserves more than just a knee jerk reaction. He thinks about what he posts and is good at arguing his case.

Equally, a lot of it is serious, next level bullshit deserving of nothing more than ridicule. He has also been known to get quite antagonistic and even nasty when criticised.

Well, a list of good films not involving pederasts, misogynists, abusers and other low lifes would be a short one. I thought Suspects was overrated, but Spacey's history does lend a whole new level of irony to Se7en, a far better film.

Some of his blog articles are quite interesting on political/philosophical matters even if I disagree with many of this arguments but his instagram feed is now probably 80% politics, and populist-right politics. He writes mini essays under a photo, and is quite prolific in his output currently. I know Andy rejects it, but UK alt-right gives a good flavour of it.

Sean, at last we agree on something (it had to happen!) although I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the rest of your post. When Andy's writing leaves climbing, I often end up upset, confused and deeply uneasy. He'd probably say that's a good thing. (You might too.)

I thought the alternate chapters on the Reticent Wall in Psychovertical were brilliant. The three chapters on the three pitches where fluffing it meant dying enthralled me. The culmination of it all, the death pitch to end all death pitches... just starting to read it, I was bricking it. And then... oh, wow!

As a climbing writer, I think he's sporadically brilliant. The rest?  I'm not so sure. But that might say more about my limitations than his abilities.

Mick

I'm interested in what he has to say about climbing, gear and his candidly expressed personal history. But in the context of political discourse, who TF is Andy Kirkpatrick? Never heard of him.

In the context of you being a political academic, (& thus assumed to have a level of insight worthy of our critical ears) I'd be interested in your opinion on why any of us should have the remotest interest in AK's political opinions, specifically in the context of him being a career mountaineer, writer and comedian rather than someone not expected to have any more a clue than the average opinionated taxi driver/man in the pub/99% of posters on this site including me (though not you).

The is sometimes a tendency for climbers who are very good at, and have gravitas, writing about climbing, to think they have the same status when writing about non climbing related subjects.

AK is hardly the first, and probably not the last, climber to fall foul of this.

Personally, I find his writing about climbing related stuff usually enjoyable and interesting. The other stuff I just ignore.

Because He uses his status as a climber to gain traction for his views on other subjects. He wouldn't have the following he does without that background.

Personally I don't buy off people whose views I really disagree with. I don't buy black diamond because of their involvement with guns, nor do I buy from needle sports because the owner is anti EU. And now Montane. There is going to be nobody left. Hey ho.

What do Black Diamond have to do with guns?

Patagonia, Arcteryx, Outdoor Research, and now Montane also are producing clothes and gear for the military which might annoy a few people.

https://brigantes.com/news/tag/tactical

"Guns" was a quick euphemism for their being acquired by Armour Holdings an American defence contractor.

Yes I know that, I'm trying to get people to identify reasons as to why AK's political views are or aren't worth a nanosecond of anyone's time, as opposed to any else. It's the equivalent of celebrities' unqualified opinions getting media exposure which confers assumed credence.  

Oddly enough, same here; the latter being a shame as it's the best shop within a 6 hour (probably more) radius. Life is not made easier by giving a f*ck.

Goucho: yep I like his writing, thought Psychovertical was brilliant, Cold Wars less so, and his climbing blog usually great. Not seen any of his alleged right-wingery, nor do I particularly want to. 

What’s the objection to Montane? Making military equipment? If so for who?

I assume because Montane sponsor Andy.

He's probably only the second best climbing pseud from Hull as well! 

Hi Ian. Just out of interest, what about food shopping? Utilities? Do you apply the same degree of ethical selection to every aspect of your life? Do you drink coffee?...

I'm not meaning to be rude, I'm just interested. I've always considered being a truly ethical consumer to be very difficult, even more so when you consider all our ethics differ.

Edit: changed the word 'moral' to 'ethic'

In reply to Tyler:

Who's branding anyone a hypocrite? Have I missed something?

Well now my reply just looks odd and lonely :-/

I deleted my reply as it was badly worded but you did seem to be trying to unpick Ian's argument. Yes, ethical shopping is hard so people should be applauded for trying even if they don't get it 100% right. Ian might drink coffee from non fair trade sources whilst boycotting BD, but why concentrate on his short comings rather than the person who does neither. It reminded me how people are always keen to point out vegetarian's inconsistencies ('but you wear leather shoes!') rather than think 'its good they are responsible for less battery farming suffering than me' (I'm not a veggie).

Hi Tyler. I think you may be reading things that don't exist between the lines. I was interested, not attempting to pick holes. However, you do raise a good point. I recognize the vegetarian parallel. Often it is a response which is unreasonable, however occasionally it is a response levelled against someone who is attempting to self aggrandise, and offered by way of returning said person to the ground. I'm not suggesting that in this case, Ian is guilty of this, I am just showing an interest in his other ethical decisions, seeing as he was on a roll of creating a list of companies he ethically objects to.

Would they prefer soldiers to be sent off to fight (or do peace keeping) with second rate clothing while us lot wear the top notch stuff to go climbing for fun? 

Ask them? I suspect the answer will be a perspective that thinks the defence industry is ethically suspect and they don't like companies that are selling themselves as outdoor/civilian making money from war/defence/the military.

Which whether I agree with or not I think is a fair and logical position to have.

AK is a great climbing writer and I would like to read this. However, £24 for 256 pages is £1 for every 10/11 pages. Ouch. Also, I am not comfortable with putting money in the direction of a someone who posts reactionary social-political rants on instagram. It's not mainly that I don't share his politics (I don't), it's that he is so lazy, semi-informed and ill-informed that it's just the parading of prejudices. I have also found him to be pretty thin-skinned and hostile to being challenged. 

Precisely! Giving troops outdated uniforms and PPE is hardly going to make the world better. I don't get the argument - even if you disagree with war, surely you want soldiers, marines etc. to have the best equipment to increase their personal survivability? 

I'd hope we're all grown up enough to appreciate individuals are multifaceted, can write good climbing books regardless of their political views and maybe we can read their concepts with a critical eye. Save boycotts for parties doing something deplorable so they have some meaning

As for the army buying climbing equipment??? they buy food, pants, petrol, pens, carpets - you're going to have to shut yourself in a cupboard and live off the mould for the rest of your life. No they buy cupboards too

Presumably such a position would extend to a boycott of climbing routes that have been established as a result of ‘war/Defence/the military’: Demo Route, Civvy Route, Leviathan, Outward Bound..?

I don’t think that either Joe Barry or Tom Patey were given to alt right leaning musings. The CCAW just weren’t into that sort of thing. 

James

Well only if you believe that every position has to be followed to its logical extreme. It's possible to extol the virtues of Norway without needing to pack up and move there.

I'm just a humble school teacher these days Stuart, but I know what you mean. I did indeed used to work for a foreign and security policy think tank, and did my PhD in security policy issues. Actually, I've got no problem with anyone giving their political/social views on any subject - I just happen to strongly disagree with Andy on most things it now sees - but its a free market of ideas. Clearly most the people who read his political stuff now, know him because of his climbing writing, but that's good, we can get trapped in our little worlds of our interests sometimes. When I used to blog regularly, and had a pretty decent readership, I knew that some people came to the blog to read about Finnish ice climbing, or winter cycling tire choice, etc. but then read my stuff on US politics or EU security policy or whatever bee was in my bonnet. It also worked the other way round though, people who had seen me commenting on something in the media in my professional field would end up commenting on the climbing post which I always thought was rather nice! 

I suspect I'll keep reading Andy's political posts, it's interesting as so few people in the UK will take a pro-Trump line for example and that has value in itself even if I totally disagree. Andy has written stuff that is against multiculturalism as an ideology (personally I think multiculturalism is a 'lived reality' and that's very different from an ideology, but that's another discussion), he thinks the elites have abandoned and look down on 'the people' including by changing the country through immigration - I think he is wrong in many respects but not all, but that's not the same as thinking he is racist (even though he has flirted with things, more I suspect to wind up what he calls the Marxist Guardian-reading multiculturalist elites), and I've hugely enjoyed his climbing writing for coming on 20 years now.

Thanks for replying Toby. Doubtless AK has seen the way this thread has panned out so it would be good if he joined in to put forward his view. Cheers S

The difference is that most climbers seem to be left-leaning, so when climbers-who-write stray into politics they make bonkers left-leaning statements that most climbers agree with. Whereas AK makes bonkers right-leaning statements which have most climbers frothing at the mouth.

Not to mention American Beauty

It's a tricky one this one. Like many of you I don't really agree with what he says much of the time, but ironically a large point of his political ramblings are ascribed to the freedom to say what you like to whom you like. What you lot have just done is provided more fodder for the cannon. His point is that if he want's to shout from the top of a building that he's a bellend, then let him crack on - walk on by and ignore him. But I honestly don't think that's what he's trying to do. I suspect more that he is trying to provoke people into seeing that at both ends of the increasingly polarised spectrum, there seems to be a requirement to censure other peoples thoughts, rather than letting it all out and then sifting out the dross. For example when he talks about women, I don't believe it's because he wants women repressed, but that he feels there is more than a single issue at work in gender equality and that we are being daft to think otherwise. The papers and media where we get much of our information from tends to present information is such a way that they engender a feeling of us and them which is unhelpful at best and downright dangerous at worst. It allows the reader to turn of the thinking part of their brain and to be guided towards beliefs. As I said, for the most part I don't agree with what he writes, but it does force me to reassess and re-evaluate my own prejudices and that can't ba a bad thing. It's not as if he's running for May's job. And to be fair, if politicians actually expressed thier views even half as articulately as Andy does, then we'd be in a much better position.

I'm not sure that's what he's trying to do, and if he is it doesn't seem to be working very well. If you dip in every now and then and see that he's written some more poorly researched ramblings, then one isn't likely to keep reading! I guess this is 'sifting through the dross' which ends with him being ignored! 

I guess that's the problem with social media as a way of expressing thoughts - it's so utterly instant, not to mention permanent that it's a difficult sword to wield. But that he isn't just simply pumping out the latest happy go lucky picture of him summiting El Cap again at least deserves some recognition. Sure you might not agree, but that's the idea. He feels he has something to say and wants to say it and he is worried that if we carry on down the road we are on at the moment that we will all end up mute. Whether he is right is a different question. Sure, he's a climber but he's allowed opinions on other things too. For example, I take it you are similarly dismayed about Alex Honnold's support of various political causes? Or do you happen to agree so let that one slide? Maybe not as prolific but I hope you can take my point.

He thinks that the world is in danger of all the right wing ranters becoming mute? What planet is he on?

No, he thinks that the world is in danger of all the ranters becoming mute?

Personally I can feel to some extent what he's on about. Post Brexit, we've seen remainers being told to shut up - you could say that's a centerist rant. But that is just one example where the extreme views of people on both left and right, trying to suppress opinion. Look at what Trump is doing - anything that is deemed by him as damaging to his cause becomes fake news, or the person becomes a "loser". He is trying to censure people.

Been away. Haven't read all replies. Seems thread has gone a bit off topic. 

Yes I question the values of those I buy off. No apologies. I don't claim perfect knowledge sometimes I get it wrong and some times I will be hypocritical, I can live with that.

I have no issue with him voicing his opinions, whether I agree with them or not, that is entirely his prerogative (as it is mine not to read them). I take issue with many of his instagram writings being poorly based in fact, and therefore being explicitly untrue (different from having a differing opinion). His whole 'wake up sheeple' approach is another matter, and one of taste I guess.

Most climbers (with Honnold being a good example) don't really stray far from well evidenced viewpoints from what I've seen, so unless you're a climate change denier (for example), or you thought that Trump was correct in removing the protections on Bear's Ears to allow extractive industry to move in (as he has done) then there is little to disagree with.

I've seen no evidence that he cares about left wing ranters becoming mute. His whinges are exclusively about right wing positions. And the notion that ranters are becoming mute is completely absurd. Of course ranters are trying to silence others, ranters and non-ranters, that they disagree with. That is not evidence of the muting of ranters - quite the opposite.

That is your perspective as a european moderate. Take a look at some of the heat that Honnold took for expressing those views. I entirely agree, his views should not be contentious at all, but seeing as our views don't really affect american policy, they are irrelevant. On the otherhand, if you look at the type of response some of his "well evidenced viewpoints" engendered on social media, I think you'd be surprised to know that they reflected the response Andys did. I find it odd that the response here is mainly "he's a climber what would he know". That's not the response elicited by the squares on the ballot sheet - how many of you actually take the time to find out what you're voting for? Politicians hold all sorts of beliefs, some far weirder than Andys and yet we regularly vote them into power without really having the first clue about where they come from, what they believe, without ever hearing them express an opinion. They are the people we elect as morally and intellectually our superiors. I have heard far more opinions from Andy than I've heard from the strong and stable TM. And so we accept them in politics but not from the general public?

I hope you don't have a van. Have you ever seen how may transporters  and transits VW and Ford make for European armies!

Ranters is extreme. I was making light of the previous post. But freedom to say what you like and think what you like seems to me to be being slowly suppressed, systematically from a high level. You just have to look at some of the social media posts that come out of the two wings of politics in the UK - they are forcefully and divisively worded, presented as fact, and with little observance for the centre ground (which is most likely to be the more accurate in terms of what the truth is). They use social media to represent half truths as fact which in the long run will lead to suppression of truth as people will believe the half truths as they reflect their black or white opinions - peoples views as a result become entrenched and extreme. In the end we don't know what is fact and what is fiction and people in positions of power use that to their advantage. Maybe Andy's posts are right wing, I seem to remember reading in his own posts that he was at one point a Marxist so something has changed maybe? At anyrate I can atleast see some of his point.

Andy Kirkpatrick isn't against those people - he IS one of those people

T4 California!

But they're not owned by a military contractor to my knowledge (That's my own personal line in the sand).

But you never know for sure.

Maybe he is,  maybe he isn't. That's not what I took from it. Doesn't mean I share his views, but that's not how I read it.

I am still buying as much as possible from Needlesports specifically to annoy you.

I'm reminded of my vegetarian days. "Are they leather shoes you're wearing?" Etc.

Enjoy!

Sounds like nostalgia

This must go down as the most unsuccessful - or successful - UKC press release to date. 

I guess there's no such thing as bad publicity, will have had more views than his instagram anyway!

Well I quite like the guy he’s pretty funny and his books are entertaining and informative

Ordered a copy and looking forward to the read ! 

I wander if this discussion would be going on if Andy were to express leftist opinions. Probably not. Boycotting and punishing people just because they have different views? If you have to resort to that kind of behaviour maybe the problem isn't he, but you? I find it childish. If you don't like what he has to say don't read his stuff. Read Chomsky. It's ok. Everyone has a right to express their views. Maybe, just maybe leftist aren't so tolerant, inclusive and diverse after all, huh? I discovered this forum relatively recently and find it invaluable source of tips, information and inspiration for my own adventures and it would be sad if it were to become another eco chamber like Google and other places, infested with narrow minded leftists. Sad! Climbing/mountaineering should be about fun, learning, adventures and comradery. Let's leave it at that. Anyway I hope I haven't ruined your day with this rant and won't be accused of being a Nazi, spreading 3rd Reich heresy ????

Yours truly
Pro gun, pro life, pro Brexit, anti EU, pro Trump, pro military, pro liberty, NOT alt-right, Christian conservative, fellow climber ????

Um, I hate to point out after having done so higher up but with less assertion, Andy, supports Labour, not the right. So your self described rant is off the mark. It's only the people on this thread who are saying he's alt-right... And in my experience, right or left doesn't matter - both sides are fairly effective at shouting and trying to drown out any other opinions...

What does pro-gun and pro-military mean in a UK context?

There is nothing wrong with ethical shopping or vegetarianism as long as you do them quietly

He may well support Labour, but a lot of what he says fits more with the so-called "alt right". It's almost as though it;s possible to hold a variety of opinions that don't easily fit into a single party label...

In reply to seankenny:

It would be interesting but also none of our business. Presumably if he wanted it written on this site he would have posted it directly. 

In reply to ericinbristol:

£24 may be expensive but does seem in the normal range for climbing books   guess how it compares to other recent titles depends on the N° of pages, photos etc

and would be positively cheap for an academic book

Agreed on all counts - I'm not suggesting that AK or his publisher are doing anything unusual. It's normal for such books, it's just that in the end £24 is quite a bit of money (really not a hugely controversial thing to say). I would have preferred if my books were cheaper and understand why they were not 

In reply to ericinbristol:

As a published author, you should know that the price is not set by the author, but by the publisher. In this case, your ire should be directed at Vertebrate, not AK.

I would also have thought that a published author would know that some mass-market hardbacks will sell for less that a tenner, and others, as Doug says, will be considerably more. To be honest, I think it's a slightly surprising publishing decision by Vertebrate. They have a fine track record of publishing in what they know - climbing, walking, running, biking - but their lists don't really include authors-up-their-arses cod-politics/philosophy to any great degree, and it's not a line I would have thought would be very profitable.

There has been a misunderstanding. I am sorry if I was not clear. I hope my last post clarifies what I am saying. I did not suggest or imply that the price was set by the author. I am also fully aware of the pricing variation for types of book and market.  

I am going to archive this thread now.

Alan