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Polish alpinist Darek Soko?owski has established the world's second D16 dry-tool line at the steep and imposing Tomorrow's World cave in the Italian Dolomites, with an ascent of Parallel World, an extension of his unrepeated 2017 route War Without End D15+. Soko?owski opted to climb in pure Dry-Tooling Style, avoiding the use of fig-fours in order to increase the physical difficulty.
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In reply to UKC News:
Soko?owski opted to climb in pure Dry-Tooling Style, avoiding the use of fig-fours in order to increase the physical difficulty.
?? What does this really mean? That if he used fig-fours he could climb something even harder? That fig-fours are frowned upon?
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In reply to UKC News:
I'm sorry but that route is definitely not in nick!!
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In reply to SenzuBean:
Keeping it challenging I guess. I recall reading a while back on Will Gadd's blog that heel spurs on crampons were used for a while, then deemed unethical & went out of fashion.
In reply to SenzuBean:
I don't know, but I think fig 4s (and before that, heel spurs) change the difficulty so much that some people decide that going without them is a better challenge - akin in some ways to knee pads when rock climbing...
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In reply to UKC News:
But what's he done on Masson?
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In reply to UKC News:
What a crap sport
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In reply to ashtond6:
That's a bit like saying aid climbing is a crap sport. And is this because you can only climb d6 and this is ten grades above what you can manage
Post edited at 09:09
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In reply to AJM:
> I don't know, but I think fig 4s (and before that, heel spurs) change the difficulty so much that some people decide that going without them is a better challenge - akin in some ways to knee pads when rock climbing...
But fig 4's are not like heel spurs or knee pads; heel spurs and knee pads are pieces of equipment whereas a fig 4 is a climbing technique. Banning fig 4's is much more like banning Egyptians in rock climbing to make it more challenging - just seems absurdly contrived really.
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In reply to Robert Durran:
I might try not jamming the next hand crack I find and claiming a higher grade. The weird and err wonderful world of sport chipping...
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In reply to beardy mike:
> That's a bit like saying aid climbing is a crap sport. And is this because you can only climb d6 and this is ten grades above what you can manage
haha very good
I just struggle to see the objective - aid climbing gets you up things, this is just weird
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In reply to UKC News:
I am Sunday warrior at Scottish IV.5. Fig 4 is impressive, physical climbing technique that I would love to be able to do one day. Do not understand ethics of avoiding it. It is climbing move rather than a gear. Impressive climbing!
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In reply to andrzej kierzek:
I got interested in this - I mean, surely no-one would be weird enough to avoid a technique _just_ to make the climbing harder, as in Robert's "no egyptians" example?
I found this blog post, which maybe goes some way towards explaining it:
https://gaetanraymond.com/2016/02/06/dry-tooling-figure-4-yaniro/
Someone who actually knows what they're talking about can correct me if I'm misunderstanding this, but as I read it it's not just that it makes the climbing easier, it's that it makes it less varied and interesting (because you can just alternate fig fours for as long as there are pick placements rather than actually having to think about footholds, body positions and sequences) and also that it doesn't make sense if you think of dry tooling as training, because "nobody does [figure fours] in the mountains" (presumably at least partly because pulling off a figure four while wearing chonky mountaineering boots and full crampons is high-risk even by mixed climbing standards).
Post edited at 14:30
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In reply to ashtond6
Fixed it for you
> The objective is that drytool climbing gets you up things, across impressive features that most likely would only be aid climbable. The case in point is a cave which was previously only aid climbed and saw extrmely few ascents. The bolts used for protection are the original aid bolts
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In reply to beardy mike:
crap sport
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In reply to Ramblin dave:
> It's not just that it makes the climbing easier, it's that it makes it less varied and interesting...........
It could be argued that a (sub)sport that needs such contrived "rules" to make it interesting is, by it's nature, crap! On the other hand, who cares........
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In reply to beardy mike:
> The objective is that drytool climbing gets you up things, across impressive features that most likely would only be aid climbable.
By pre-drilling slots specifically for tools to fit into? Surely if you glued on some pinch grips some sport wads would get up them.
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In reply to HeMa:
Reads to me like they have a problem with repetitive moves caused by chipped slots so rather than stopping chipping and figuring out the most efficient way to climb rock with tools, they've banned/refused to use the moves which make it easier to use the slots.
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In reply to JHiley:
Actually in this case as far as I know they haven't drilled slots. It's very pocketed calcarious limestone on Marmolada.
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In reply to beardy mike:
Tomorrows World cave is AFAIK natural. L’Usine, that grotty cave in Scotland and numerous other places where drytooling started were party or mostly drilled. Later on drilling/chipping has been frowned upon also in the drytooling/mixed circles.
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In reply to beardy mike & HeMa:
Awesome! If fig4s are the best way to climb the rock the way it naturally presents it seems a bit nuts to rule them out.
Tho I suppose I have about as much insight as a shouty walker telling someone on FBD to just walk around the back.
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In reply to UKC News:
Don't forget "O?wiecenie" the first european D16 (in Poland) by Filip Babicz (italian/polish) one year ago... and without Figure 4...
Post edited at 18:47
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In reply to UKC News:
Is there a video of this anywhere?
In reply to Somerset swede basher:
How many people saying it's crap have tried it?
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In reply to Alex Riley:
Does it matter? Merit is in the eye of the beholder. Some achievements are only considered significant by the achiever, and that's ok.
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In reply to Robert Durran:
> It could be argued that a (sub)sport that needs such contrived "rules" to make it interesting is, by it's nature, crap! On the other hand, who cares........
Free climbing is equally contrived - one avoids yarding on gear, even if doing so would ease upward progress. Contrived challenges are the very essence of our pursuit as climbers.
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In reply to Si Witcher:
It's pretty flipping fun...
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In reply to Myr:Yes, but the level of contrivance in arbitrarily banning some movements of the body but not others is completely different to the contrivance of only pulling on the rock.
> Free climbing is equally contrived - one avoids yarding on gear, even if doing so would ease upward progress. Contrived challenges are the very essence of our pursuit as climbers.
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In reply to Robert Durran:
As I understand it, the point is that if you allow Fig 4's and Fig 9's it becomes to more or less possible to climb anything. As long as you have the grip strength to hang on you don't need foot holds, where as without you have to be able to climb it in a relatively normal fashion - the introduction of the fig 4's reduces the difficulty so much that it makes it pointless as training and as a challenge (not that I can even do a fig 4 or drytool). Fig 4's are not as useful to rock climbers so it's not a question in that version of our sport so it's hard to imagine, I guess it'd be more like deciding that using rock boots should not be allowed as it's an impure practice? Not sure what parallel to draw... as I say I don't drytool and and I'm not sure that I ever will despite this cave being 5 minutes drive from my house...
Post edited at 10:31
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In reply to Bulls Crack:
> I might try not jamming the next hand crack I find and claiming a higher grade. The weird and err wonderful world of sport chipping...
I do that anyway. Not by choice you understand, just I'm a wall bred softy and I cant jam for s***.
Does that mean I can upgrade all those old school HVS jamming cracks I failed to onsight, so I feel less of a punter?
Post edited at 11:06
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In reply to UKC News:
Fig 4 or not this is a great effort, I bet it's desperate.
Tomorrow's world is all natural placement, not drilled.
The DTS style makes it a bit harder and its in vogue now in the drytooling world as it resembles more to normal rock-climbing. Horses for course I guess.
Though pure drytooling, the way I see now, it's just training for the mountains and very good fun too. I suppose reporting this as news helps to follow a climber's trajectory, as strong drytoolers go on to do great alpine/mixed achievements (Boswell, Mercier, Ballard... to mention a few).
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In reply to Ramon Marin:
Indeed - Tom Ballard is currently on an attempt of Nanga Parbat...
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In reply to beardy mike:
> Indeed - Tom Ballard is currently on an attempt of Nanga Parbat...
With or without fig fours?
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In reply to Ramblin dave:
DTS style from the couch.
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In reply to Ramon Marin:
> Though pure drytooling, the way I see now, it's just training for the mountains and very good fun too.
Is this actually true, or is it evolving into a subsport in it's own right (like bouldering, or, in particular, weird indoor bouldering!).
In reply to Ramon Marin:
I would add that, as I understand it, it’s D16 because it’s longer/harder than the D15+ there, not because it’s been done DTS.
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In reply to Robert Durran:
it already has... ice world cup hardly has any ice on them ('cept for the speed). albeit in IWC fig 4s and 9s are still fair game.
In reply to beardy mike:
> As I understand it, the point is that if you allow Fig 4's and Fig 9's it becomes to more or less possible to climb anything. As long as you have the grip strength to hang on you don't need foot holds, where as without you have to be able to climb it in a relatively normal fashion - the introduction of the fig 4's reduces the difficulty so much that it makes it pointless as training and as a challenge (not that I can even do a fig 4 or drytool).
As an unfamiliar observer I might need some help understanding that. Surely to hang there from a roof and perform a fig4 you need a good incut edge facing away from the ground, either a natural in-cut pocket or a drilled slot. There must be loads of rock that doesn't have these necessary features?
Post edited at 20:36
In reply to JHiley:
I'm about as umfamiliar as you. But in this particular case, which is up the road from my house and next to which I've started developing some routes, the rock is pocketed - you can see there are great big hueco type formations all over the roof of the cave. I have zero experience of it mind. It's mentioned in a guidebook as a potential future hard sport route destination, but given that it's been sat under peoples noses for decades, if it was going to be developed... I mean it's hard to miss as you drive down the valley and god only knows enough hard climbers will have driven past on their way to the south face...
In reply to ashtond6:
So you have been aid climbing where as you would know clip sticks are frowned on and you have issues with rules in other types of climbing?
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In reply to philhilo:
I didn't realise people used clip sticks when aid climbing!
In reply to beardy mike:
I'm not doubting that the route is on natural pockets now I've been told I just don't get why dry toolers can't climb rock where it wouldn't be possible to do loads of fig-4s. I.e. doesn't have slots or lots of unusually positive pockets.
Especially since people are saying fig-4s aren't useful in the "mountains" (where is this cave again!!?) If they want to train for "the mountains" can't they just climb rock that is similar to the rock they're training for? Anyway I'm not demanding an explanation from you personally, just expressing my confusion.
In reply to Michael Gordon:
They don't as its regarded as cheating! Stiffened quickdraw is ok (ruler taped to it), 2 wires larksfooted together is ok, but 10m of clipstick is not ok. Aid routes are graded by the distance travelled on bodyweight only placements. Clipstick gets around that. Lets face it, its up to every individual what they do, pull on gear, use a clipstick, stand on a rock, get a bunk up. Kind of strange folks slagging off one sort of climbing and its 'rules' when every sort of climbing has 'rules'. I do them all so I guess I deal with a lot of 'rules'.
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In reply to JHiley:
Yes you do need good incut holes. Natural placements are a rarity, as it's normally the case is that if there's natural holds then there's a chance to be rock-climbed.
In reply to JHiley:
That would mean climbing scottish rock when they are black with axes. Not really practical unless you like a bit of abuse in these forums.
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In reply to Robert Durran:
> But fig 4's are not like heel spurs or knee pads; heel spurs and knee pads are pieces of equipment whereas a fig 4 is a climbing technique. Banning fig 4's is much more like banning Egyptians in rock climbing to make it more challenging - just seems absurdly contrived really.
Ok, so i’ve started following the Neil Gresham/Dave Mac bouldering training advice, and have banned myself from drop knees, Egyptians, turning in, straight arms, sharing etc. Starting to feel the benefit already, but equally absurd.
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
> Ok, so i’ve started following the Neil Gresham/Dave Mac bouldering training advice, and have banned myself from drop knees, Egyptians, turning in, straight arms, sharing etc. Starting to feel the benefit already, but equally absurd.
Think a key word there is 'training'.
Dry Tooling in its own right might well have started as training, but as this route demonstrates, it has now become (to some) a separate discipline.
To anyone outside of the Dry Tooling scene, it does come across as a bit weird to eliminate what are effectively rests so as to make the route harder.
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