UKC

I stumbled across this sharing of experiences of being smacked, in light of the decision in Wales, and found it quite heart string tugging.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/lifestyle/family-relationships/my-parents-smacked...

Psychology studies seem to agree that it either makes a child more aggressive, or more anxious, where it has a negative outcome,  with 'seemingly no to little harm' being the best outcome, rather than something actually beneficial.

Why should people be free to inflict pain on children when they are (rightly) not allowed to on non-consenting adults?

Long overdue.

I was caned countless times at school. Never did me any harm. I just hate authority 🙂

I disagree. All of our kids have occasionally had a clip, whereas my nephew didn’t. 
Our kids are all ok yet he clips his mother when he doesn’t get his way. This is a small case study mind.

Congratulations.  Based on your limited experience you extrapolate to everyone else.  And how do you know your kids are "ok"?

I went to a supposed Christian school where "the strap" the "ruler" and "the cane" were common punishments for kids as young as six.  

People like you with the moronic "never did me any harm" bullshit make me sick.  Treat an animal like that and it'd quite rightly get taken off you.

So how f*cked up are you? I've got a mate who endured being educated at the hands of the christian brothers, now a fervent atheist but not much harm otherwise. Another mate went to one of those hippy schools where there's no discipline and few boundaries, he absolutely couldn't cope with real life post school and reckoned it was a pretty common experience amongst his peers who seemed to be hit disproportionately hard with MH issues, addiction problems and suicide.

Childhood's tough and should go some way to preparing you for adult life, which is also tough. Most kids seem to thrive on firm boundaries and lots of love.

I think you need separate the occasional belting, from an environment of underlying violence. As I've already said, I got done at school numerous times, but it was a bit of game to me at the time, see how far I could push them. This was 1971 to 8 btw

I'm a non violent or  not overly aggressive person like every other UKCer. Never hit the wife or 3 children, won't see me for dust if any yoboery kicks off near me.

Maybe I had masochistic tendencies as a boy due to lack of available teenage girls?

Naturally a difficult topic because childcare is so personal to everyone. Everyone will have their own memories of being a child, seeing how other children were raised, and also maybe raising their own.

For example, I was occasionally smacked as a child. It's a big ask to think that my parents, who cared for me a huge amount, should have been arrested and possibly had me taken away from them because of how they brought me up.

Presumably there's some pretty strong evidence that smacking isn't an effective way of managing behaviour. If there was more of an effort to communicate that compelling evidence, and explain the evidence around the results of other methods then maybe more people against criminalisation would be convinced.  

Personally not sure where I stand. 

Why the hell would you ever hit a kid? Surely it's a complete parenting fail if you've come to a point where your only behavioural tool left is smacking them?

My Dad only had to shout and I'd instantly stop/comply, the contrast with his generally calm and loving self seemed to be enough.

My mum used to smack us, my dad didn't. 

I listened to my dad and respected him. I went to him for advice and help with all sorts of things.

I avoided my mum and would never have gone to her if I had any problems. No trust or closeness there.

Smacking taught me never to own up to anything I did wrong, it taught me to lie convincingly to get out of trouble. It didn't teach me how to own up to any wrongdoing and to deal with it in any constructive way.

Aww, I don't know. Just brought this up with the wife and kids (16 and 12) and it sparked about 30 seconds of debate followed by 5 minutes of tw*ting each other with dog toys amid much laughter. Then it went a bit far and I now have a dead leg.

Maybe this is entirely dysfunctional but it works for us

Different strokes and all that. My Mum used to hit me, I can only remember my Dad doing it once. I love them both dearly and we're very close. Worth noting, my mum's never hit her grand kids and would be horrified at the thought. Times change.

Hah! I think that's a bit different from "Do what I say or I'll hit you", or "You did something I don't like so I'm going to hit you". 

I don't think I ever got hit as a kid. I remember once getting the "Wait 'til your dad gets home" thing from my mum but then my dad got home he couldn't bring himself to do it.

I was a good kid really, despite on many occasions causing my parents considerable trouble, you just don't think things through as well when you're a kid do you, which is fair enough, you're only a kid

Imagine if, in the discussion surrounding the treatment of women, someone had written:

"I think you need to separate the occasional groping, from an environment of underlying sexual violence". 

It's all part of the same spectrum of behaviour.

My childhood was not happy so I'm biased, but it makes me sad that people think that any sort of violence perpetrated by adults against kids is OK. It's also makes a nonsense of trying to teach kids that violence isn't the solution to a problem.

If you made a mistake at work, do you think it would be cool if your boss brought in someone three times your size to give you a belt? Would that be a constructive learning experience for you? 

Edit: Maggot, this isn't a personal rant at you dude, sorry. It's an emotive subject for me.

I guess Stanley must have beaten Boris on a daily basis.

I was physically beaten at school with a shoe and other objects (for talking to someone next to me, daydreaming, and staringout of the window), not gently or once or twice but with many hard painful blows. It had a bad effect on me and I think no good effect. I came to hate those teachers and ultimately school became a bad place for me. Other teachers were wise and taught me a lot

It's no joke. And rightly banned IMO

An occasional clip doesnt do any harm, maybe some of the arrogant attitudes on here wouldnt be as nasty if they were brought up like most of us...too many people try to push their idea as right on here, nobodys right, we are all the same , stop being arrogant and trying to bully people into thinking your way

Do you hit your wife if she misbehaves?

Rob is right and the idea that it is OK to hit children when quite rightly we can't do the same to adults is simply wrong in many peoples eyes...

There’s certainly plenty of evidence that, harm aside, punishment and fear are very poor learning aids compared with the reinforcement of good behaviour.

Mainly though, I think the legislation is tackling the problem that if you allow for smacking, somewhere there is a blurry legal boundary between “the odd clip” and what is undeniably physical abuse. Some grim situations can be argued to fall under “reasonable punishment”.

Most of the people on this thread saying “it never did me no harm” are probably right. But loving, supportive parents who gave “the odd clip” aren’t really the primary target of the legislation. At the end of the day, “did no harm” and “turned out okay” aren’t exactly compelling arguments in favour of something that at the other end of the spectrum can and does cause people serious and lasting harm. 

My parents smacked me and I don't think it made any difference - it would have been just as likely a deterrent if they'd shouted or punished me in another way I think. No harm done in my case. 

But times change and I just don't think it's necessary. We've never smacked our children or dog and I don't feel there'll ever be a time when we need to now. Interestingly my Dad will sometimes smack his other grandchildren but never ours; he must realise, even though we've not said anything, that it wouldn't be acceptable.

Only in self defence.

Ah thats why boris wont own up to anything lol,we got hidings for being little bas@rds as kids and our parents have our upmost respect and love.

I only ever smacked my children once or twice in their lives. In all cases it was not painful, it was just that I had run out of other options and this was the last means I could think of to get across the point that whatever they were doing was REALLY dangerous and must stop NOW (e.g. sticking things into electrical sockets in a house where the sockets were not child proof, cutting electrical leads with their toy scissors, deciding that they had to go and play in the water when there was a rip current that made it difficult for me to stand....)

Sometimes it is impossible to reason with a toddler in full tantrum mode!

Smacking children as a normal means of education is plain wrong and should be banned, in particular by anyone else but parents. I was still smacked at school by teachers close to retirement age who had started their careers in the Third Reich, I know exactly what to make of this. AFAIU smacking in schools was illegal in Germany already back then.

That is not even funny.

CB

I remember asking my mum about this when I was about 8. I said that I'd noticed we didn't get smacked on the legs anymore when we were naughty. She explained that she'd realised it wasn't right and also that as we got bigger she thought one day we'd hit her back.

Actually this reminds me of something else: our parents smacked us, and us children fought each other often - sometimes quite nasty physical fights. Whereas my children (not smacked) don't really fight each other at all, at the same age. They might shove a bit every now and then but they don't fight like we did. That's something else I think is based on the fact that we don't smack.

To those responders vehemently against any form of physical punishment for your kids, Just how do you discipline them effectively when they've been little shits? Asking this from the point of view of a grandparent whose daughter is a single parent and is having a hell of a time keeping her two in check. The obvious things like switching off the internet and TV don't seem to have much of an effect.   

When they were toddlers: naughty step (sometimes had to carry them there of course)

Early years: threat of a behaviour chart which would get sent to Santa at Christmas to show whether they'd been naughty or nice - usually with a reward for good behaviour

Later primary school: no TV / screen time, cancel playdates, serious talk with us both about behaviour

Older: no idea yet. Hopefully someone will advise me!

Same, though what's that got to do with the OP

youtube.com/watch?v=j9coCbo7Wso&

I'm no expert but I'm the parent of an 8 year old and the step parent of a 15 year old.

We always worked on the basis of talking to them and having consequences directly coming from the problem.

So, if my 8 year old doesn't want to go to bed at bed time then I'll say "Okay but if you mess about then we're not going to have time for a story" and "Well if it takes this long for you to get to bed then we'll have to start going to bed much early in future". They're not threats or punishments, they are just the consequences that flow from them messing about.

Same with things like not eating your tea. "Okay but there's nothing else", or "You're obviously not hungry because of the treats we had earlier so we probably won't be having treats in future".

With both of them when younger this doesn't always work, there have been many occasions when I've had to physically hold them or move them (not hit them) for their own safety when it's imperative to do something quickly (small child trying to jump into too hot bath, small child trying to run into a road etc). 

We always talk things through with them when they've done something. Sometimes they've done something and they don't understand why it might be wrong, sometimes they are just being little shits. Either way they need talking to.

My 8 year old is pretty well behaved, the 15 year old is pretty good also but we went through some pretty difficult times around the start of puberty. Talking to her really worked, she really hated talking things through, she was just a rebel without a cause and if I'd acted the evil step dad then I'd fill the role of the thing to push against. 

Also _listen_ to them. Sometimes the parent isn't always right, or you can meet them halfway.

All this is a long term project though and even with the best intentions things can go wrong, not all kids are the same, circumstances can vary and parents can be stressed and exhausted. My ex did once hit my step daughter in frustration which didn't go too well as said daughter immediately just hit her back. 

It isn't easy and, whatever you do as a parent, someone else will tell you you are wrong.  I've avoided hitting my offspring so far but have come close. I'm not sure that shouting at them was much better. I may fail in the future and I wouldn't be too hard on those that lose it occasionally especially if they're on their own and lack immediate support. It takes a village.

How to discipline? Plan in advance rather than when you're at your whits end. Think of what is going to make a metaphorical impact on the child, this will differ from child to child. Give advanced warning of what will happen if the unwanted behaviour persists.  Follow through any threats: be consistent. Talk and listen to them. This is all easy to write but much harder to implement.

Other cultures do seem to manage without hitting their kids and find it a bit weird that it is still considered acceptable by many in the UK. 

all this sanctimony about smacking.  But you're all just ignoring what can be even more destructive, the harm done by other children/juveniles in the way of causing long term harm.  Or teachers who don't smack but punish you in other ways for things you didn't do.  I can still feel upset about the latter even though it happened the year Dr Who was first broadcast - accused of cheating in a test.

Couldn't give a toss about being beaten but the harm done by bullies and unfair teachers sticks

Damn, I always looked forward to going to Wales..

You seem to be conflating a lot of different issues here tbh.

I think most of us against hitting children come from the starting point that you cannot inflict pain as punishment on another adult and expect to get away with it so why should it be acceptable to do the same to children.

Of course you may think it is ok to hit other adults if they have misbehaved in your eyes and if so then perhaps this would make more sense if you think hitting children is fine....and if you do we then get onto what is an acceptable level of 'violence' as to be any sort of punishment it is going to have to 'hurt' somewhat or else it is pointless.

I suppose the answer is that different people are hurt by different things

I had an experience like that, when I was 8. Still remember it clearly.

Not sure what it has to do with smacking, mind.

Well yes hitting people is not the only form of 'hurt' someone can dish out but this doesn't make hitting children right in my eyes.

The ridiculous nature of the law as it in England is that if I slapped my wife she could quite rightly report me to the police even if I didn't physically injure her.....if I did the same to either of my two children they couldn't if I deemed it 'reasonable punishment'.

Basically adults and children should have the same level of protection from any sort of assault IMO.

There's a big difference between smacking a child as a form of discipline with force proportionate to the size of the child, and hitting a child through anger when they've pissed you off.

I was smacked numerous times on the bottom or legs as a young child but can't really recall one specific time.

There were a hanful of times when I was backhanded once or twice viciously across the face in a fit of absolute rage, accompanied by horrible words and palpable hatred. Even though those times were the exception, they are the times I remember. This venting of anger is undoubtedly more detrimental to a child than the disciplinary smacking is useful to them.

I'm not totally comfortable with the idea of a making smacking illegal, but accept it is probably the only way to remove the ambiguity of what is acceptable and what is not.

When you think about it, in adult life, using an underlying threat of violence to get people to do what we want is a terrible strategy. So why would we teach children that way, shouldn't we teach children through example?

I should add that I have no children, so perhaps have no business having too strong an opinion...

Well, it's not you that makes the law though, is it.

and your point is? 

That all you were doing is spouting your opinion - me, I'd rather follow what the law says on the matter if it came to it.

Isn't the point of this thread to discuss opinions on whether we think the law should change or not?  

If not then what are we even on this thread for?

Of course I am airing my opinion.... it's a debate.

If you disagree with the premise that having different laws with regards to what is acceptable in terms of assault based on age is ridiculous feel free to state why.

My opinion is consistent with the law.

Your opinion differs, therefor up to you to argue for the change.

I stated why I think it is wrong as you cannot use a 'reasonable punishment' excuse for hitting another adult.... but if you think it is ok to hit children then fine.... we disagree, that's it.

It is _UK_ climbing you know, the law in Scotland and in Wales (part the reason the OP started the thread) is different.

Plus, I think he is making an argument for a change, saying if you can't hit your wife then why can you hit your child?

Do you think there is any time to use "reasonable punishment" to hit another adult?

I think one difference is that adults are not normally responsible for "punishing" other adults in any form whereas parents bringing up children are expected to apply punishment or sanctions of some type from time to time.

Not entirely sure what you are asking me here but lets take a scenario (that would never happen!).... my wife spends the weekly food money on shoes ...I say it is not on as we are skint.... she does it again and I tell her again to stop and she doesn't, another pair of shoes appear.... I lose my patience and slap her a few times as 'punishment'.

This would be deemed as not lawful and rightly so IMO..... but in England you can hit children if they misbehave using the 'reasonable punishment' excuse.

Isn't that exactly what the prison system is for? (or at least part of its remit)

The state does not inflict 'violence' on criminals as punishment.... some would argue we should though!

Some countries / states still do though!

Yes but only an appointed few prescribe and overlook the punishment as a career, whereas parenting is more or less the norm for the greater part of society.

I kind of agree with you.

The education and training for being a parent is woeful for something that a large percentage of the population end up doing. You have a kid and apart from some very basic help while they are very young there's nothing in terms of how to manage behaviour.

Parents just end up treating their kids as a reflection of how their parents treated them.

you can't actually use "reasonable punishment" to allow any action towards another adult, not confiscation, detention on a naughty step or sending to a bedroom.  You can ask them to leave if you have no other responsibilities to them.

In this sense your argument with respect to adults is not comparable as parents are certainly allowed to punish their own children.

(of course punishment for toproping, disgraceful technique including but not limited to use of knee or poor belaying are exceptions that are allowable.)

That other things can be harmful, too, is an argument 'against' smacking, I think, because of how it's only ever harmful or less than harmful/softened thanks to a wider loving environment . That is, why add it to the mix among the other potential parenting mistakes when no psychology studies have found it to be beneficial?

I take my hat off to all parents, mind you, what with the responsibility of shaping another person's psyche etc...

To move beyond 'general pondering', smacking has been linked to an increased chance of developing depression, anxiety, and personality disorders.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hitting-slapping-mentaldisord-idUSBRE861...

I think wercat was making the point that smacking appears to have had no lasting detrimental effect on them, but that other punishments (which are not being made illegal) have had long-lasting psychological impact.

Maybe we need to stop thinking about how we punish kids but rather how we educate them? Belittling someone doesn't teach them how to grow as a person and not do that thing again, it just teaches them that they are worthless. Hitting them teaches them that violence is the answer etc. 

Kids will always learn, so we can teach them a positive lesson or a negative one. No one is saying that they shouldn't be restrained/ removed from a situation which is dangerous, or even from a public place if they are having a meltdown etc. But rather than punishing the meltdown, we can remove them, find out what is behind the meltdown and teach them a better way to deal with that emotion. 

Just to be clear I'm really happy that I taught in an era where corporal punishment wasn't allowed in schools.

However doesn't that wasn't that article looking at the effect of parents who went beyond smacking? And by the quote below must have been based on some Republican States in the US.

Up to half of all children may be spanked as punishment, according to researchers led by Tracie Afifi at the University of Manitoba in Winnipeg - but they wanted to look at harsher punishments, such as shoving and hitting. 

Rather strangely (to me) the UK research I've seen links an increase to those types of problems if a child has been smacked by their mother, but not by their father? 

To me, that is is thought 25% of women have been subjected to domestic violence and a similar percentage of kids have witnessed this violence is more concerning. Perhaps  a ban on smacking will help reduce this? 

It sounds good, but if you're halfway through the checkout and your kid starts playing up a sharp physical reminder might be a more efficient way of resolving the problem than "removing" them, which is not always as easy as you'd like if you're a single parent.

On a different note, I find it really heartening to find that we can discuss this on UKC for 24 hours  without intemperate claims which equate a little slap with "beating".

I do think kids need to learn there are consequences to certain actions. I think a key point is that it the certainty of the punishment is more important than the severity. 

I got smacked two or maybe three times by my Dad. Once fairly hard after I called him a f*cking b*stard but he did apologise to me later on and said that he never wanted to hear that kind of language again (and he never did).

I think the occasional smack when a child has badly overstepped the line, and knew where the line was, is reasonable and is not abuse. Of course it has to be used sparingly and with a strong undertone of love in the family.

I remember the first (and to date, only) time I've been told to f*ck off by one of my kids. He was 12 at the time. 1) He was quite right, I was being a tw*t. 2) I was, perversely, quite proud; not only was he right, he was confident enough to tell me what he thought.

That was 30 years ago. We're still pretty close (I think!)

Maybe we should. But the discussion is about legislation against smacking, not about good parenting. We could certainly do with education on good parenting.

I wasn't expressing an opinion either way on smacking; I don't have children, so I don't have the experience to comment.

I didn't get smacked as a kid, but I was a good, quiet child from birth, apparently. I have seen some right little bastards, but, not having seen how they have been brought up, I can't really know why they are little bastards.

I only once struck my niece; a quick, two finger rap on her hand reaching into a fire. One of those occasions where verbalisation just didn't come quickly enough, but the physical action was completely instinctive and immediate.

I'm not sure your reaction would fall into the scope of any extant or proposed legislation. It's not what is being talked about. Well done anyway!

Check out the current 'fight with brother in law' thread for contrasting opinions on appropriate interpersonal violence.

Jk

Just gone back to that after leaving it unfinished,

As I see it, in broad strokes, OP had a verbal altercation with a visitor, visitor poked OP in chest, OP threw him out of the house ( physically) and you think the OP owes the visitor an apology for getting physical.

Obviously it all rotates about what you consider to be "physical".

Please note that i haven't expressed an opinion either way.

I thought that was resolved by 'physical restraint' (a headlock).

Isn't it? I struck her. Technically, that was assault. I'm sure there are absolutists who would argue I shouldn't have done what I did.

My parents were lovely but I was a little bastard through a good part of my teenage years. As a teacher, I dealt with similar kids whose parents hadn't a clue, and similar kids whose parents were as blameless as mine. In the end, I stopped making assumptions about parenting based on kids' behaviour.

My parents were teachers (Dad was a lecturer at a teacher training college by the time I came along). My aunts and uncles were teachers. My next door neighbour was a teacher. That might have some bearing on my opinion about the causes of little bastardness...

Parents can be lovely, but still not know how to bring up children. But I think some children simply 'have the devil in them'...

Some countries still behead blasphemers and stone gays too. I don't really understand your point.

Not where I live it isn’t, not for about 20 years, and I am in the UK.

But referring to the law to validate one’s opinion or to differentiate between right and wrong, dear God.

On one hand I've taught siblings where some have been model students and others have been an absolute nightmare. On the other I've looked at list of prospective year 7 students jumped to a conclusion when seeing a certain surname, and been correct about 90% of the time

Fairly common practice isn't it? Read any driving debate.

must have been about 1966 when I was ten one saturday  we were brought into a state of being respectably dressed as we were supposed to be having a family shopping trip in Newcastle (we lived in Durham).  I should say that I at ten was the eldest of 4 at that time.  I contrived to forget the fact we had decent clothes on and the shopping trip for an impulsive trip for the four of us (including a sister who was a bout 2 and a half) to Flass Vale, a wildish grassland and wooded area not far from home where I got us all to slide down a long earthy runnel repeatedly as it was good fun.  I think it was a bit muddy too.  You can imagine the state of all of us, shoes socks, clothes down to underwear when we got home to find a hue and cry about being ready to go ....

Well my father told me the error of my ways and smacked my backside and I never thought the less of him for that when I realised what I'd done that day.  Pretty par for the course in 1966 and an entirely fair cop

it's stuck in my mind partly because it seems a bit funny in retrospect but must have been somewhat stupid and thoughtless on my part which is the dominant feeling of knowing I could be a right little shit now I'm a parent

I think even in the 1960s smacking by grandparents was a definite no-no.

It was enough to hear stern "words of advice" and see the anger on the face of my normally very kind and gentle grandmother when she caught me lighting cigarette ends with a magnifying glass (the appliance of science) and taking a puff or two on the pavement near our house at about the same age as the previous incident I described.  When they were babysitting my grandfather simply referred to putting notes in his little book to tell our parents about when they came home, though this was all a pretence and we got on really well together to the end of his life.

You can’t see the logical flaw in answering the question “should this law exist?” with “this law exists”?

It truly terrifies me that people can think laws are beyond question and that “legal vs illegal” and “right vs wrong” are the same thing. Especially given who we’ve got writing laws at the moment. 

I know quite a few situations where the law is an ass but I know a lot more where it 's close enough to being right. That's all I meant.

I wonder why I got several dislikes for that. Neighbours of my parents adopted baby twins. 13 years later, after having put their adoptive mum in hospital several times, they finally had to be taken into closed psychiatric care. I really find self defence against your children not a particularly funny issue.

CB

"find out what is behind the meltdown and teach them a better way to deal with that emotion" ?

I don't think that works with toddler tantrums!

Good. It's just wrong. If you hit your child you've failed as a parent. 

And yes it does have long term effects. My parents were loving and kind and smacking wasn't a thing. One day when I was about 7 I did something stupid and dangerous that put my life at risk. They discussed it and the solution was a smacking to teach me a lesson. Full on pants down over the knee and skelped a few times. I still remember the pain humiliation anger and disappointment at my God (dad) doing this to me. I hated him so much. It coloured my relationship with him for the rest of my life. We became distant in adult life for a long time, I think partly because of lingering resentment. When he died we had been closer for a number of years, but that anger and resentment, no matter how much I rationalise it, lingers to this day.

This really is one of those times when the 2 dislikers have to explain why.

I'm never quite sure what's worse - a cold blooded, planned, clinically executed 'chastisement' or a heat of the moment, end of tether smack.

Actually, yes I do. 

Not guilty, never pressed a dislike button yet, but the dislikes might be a reaction against your reaction to the punishment. It seems a bit unusual to me  for a person who experienced physical chastisement at an early age ( n.b. not being habitually abused and beaten) to harbour resentment at the treatment for what constitutes a lifetime. In other words, I don't think your reaction is typical of people who have been physically punished by loving parents.

Psst, don't tell anyone! And especially don't mention that there is no intermittent phase of sanity between the tantrums and the "brain closed for refurbishment" madness of puberty, else noone will have children who will pay for my pension!

CB

If you smack a child it's based on your own loss of self-control, not the child's behaviour. There are many other ways you could respond to that situation should you choose to.

We all mess up, no one holds everything together all the time.
That said though, no behaviour from a child should result in physical violence from an adult who is significantly stronger and more powerful than them. There's many ways of messing children up, and that's a really effective one.

Really? Ah, so I'm wrong, and violence towards children is OK?

No, you wanted an explanation for the dislikes you got and I offered such an explanation. I didn't expect you to like it  but there is absolutely no excuse for you to twist my words like that. 

Violence towards any other human is a bad thing generally speaking but in parenting sometimes a controlled level of physical chastisement is seen as acceptable by a large cross section of society. You are just not part of that group and your personal experience of corporal punishment seems to have had a more disturbing effect on you than it would have had on a lot of other people.

You're saying again that violence towards children is OK. And discounting personal experience to justify your position. 

. You asked for an explanation for a couple of dislikes and I offered one. i might be offering the wrong explanation but if you didn't really want to know you shouldn't have asked.

Once again, please don't twist my words. I'm not saying that violence towards children is OK per se but that a certain amount of physical chastisement ( not relentless beating and torturing) is deemed acceptable by some people  but also deemed unacceptable by another faction, of which you are a part.

i'm not discounting your personal experience at all, merely saying that your reaction to childhood punishment seems more severe than would have been the case with a lot of other people.

You are.

Ok have it your way. I was only offering a possible explanation of the dislikes you had been given.

Apparently violence towards adults is wrong,  but it's OK if it's your own children. 

In the Num Num house we always gave the children a fair trial. Usually that resulted in solitary confinement for a few months in the cellar, but occasionally, for more serious offences we electrocuted them. But we never ever smacked them.

But you were always were a namby-pamby liberal. (I'm in the Lakes nowadays, if ever you fancy getting out again pm me.)

He is not.

It is quite clear to me that he is describing the feelings of third parties within the general public.

Yes. We spoiled those kids.

Nice! I will. I walked the Cumbria Way a couple of weeks ago, in that fantastic weather, last week of winter time. Shorts and a tee shirt all the way.

so you say!!