UKC

There seems to be a flurry of posts from people having damp problems on UKC, and this is probably something to do with it being winter, all the windows are shut, and people are spending too long in the shower and boiling up winter type foods and pumping litres of moisture into the system, but hey what do I know?

However the approach of many is to get a "Builder" round. What the hell is a "builder", a dodgy geezer who has bought a van, and does it cheaper for cash? My Dad was a Plumber, a 5 year apprenticeship, in my circle of friends are joiners, brickies, plasterers, sparkies etc, all did 4/5 year apprenticeships and have City and Guilds.

Would not make sense if one has an issue with a property to get someone like a Surveyor round to correctly identify the problem and suggest a course of action, as opposed to the "builder" who may have no actual trade, and even if they do, it may have no relevance to the issue you are having, and will not want to come back if the work does not resolve the problem. I wonder how much it would cost to get a surveyor round and if in the long run, this would be the most cost effective solution?

In reply to Godwin:  Perhaps if the surveyor and his friends with the 5 year City and Guilds certificates had a chat before building the houses they could build them so they could be insulated and damp free at the same time? I wonder how much it would cost and if in the long run, this would be the most cost effective solution?

In reply to Godwin:

You have a point but denigrating builders is unfair. What they do is hard and skilled and potentially dangerous.

Surveyors are generalists and may be in no better position to know the cause.

In reply to wbo2:

Do modern new builds suffer with these defects, I have no idea, if so they are on a NHSBA warranty, so hopefully they will get sorted, but they are I am led to believe built to high standards governed by building regulations.

What I am asking about are the average house which is 100 to 30 years old which will have possibly not been properly maintained  and things will obviously be need of repair and replacement, and not built to modern standards.

In reply to MG:

What exactly is a "builder". There are proper trades people out there, doing good professional work, with pride in what they do. 

But getting back to the point, if not a surveyor, who exactly can one ask for professional expert unbiased advice. Houses are complex things and identifying a problem can be difficult.

In reply to Godwin:

Among them builders.

They are and causes of damp are tricky and possibly costly to identify. There are also a lot of scamish types around.

In reply to MG:

So who does one ask?

In reply to Godwin:

I'd start with someone professional (so they take liability for their advice) and experienced in identifying damp. Could be a surveyor but not the first in Google, necessarily.

In reply to MG:

But you just said "Surveyors are generalists and may be in no better position to know the cause.", which I agree with, and I have seen enough Surveyors reports to know that they are masters of taking no responsibility for anything they say.

You have no more idea than I have, who to ask.

It is really tricky, people have problems with houses and throw hundreds of pounds at it, and can seem to get nowhere.

In reply to Godwin:

If you know roughly what trade is the likely cause of the problem you're experiencing, I'd choose a specialist contractor rather than a surveyor. Select a contractor who comes recommended or who you've used before. I had a guy round at my place last week who I'd used before, covers multiple trades and who I trust 100% to do a good job and not rip me off. I've worked in the industry for almost 40 years now (on the design side) and have come across the full spectrum of contractors ranging from incredibly skilled artisans to complete chancers who were totally incompetent, just like you'd find in any other industry. Don't take a chance and choose an 'unknown' in the hope you'll save a few quid, it's simply not worth it. 

However if you really want to get a surveyor round, just phone a few and they'll tell you how much they charge. Ultimately though, you'll be relying on a contractor to do the job correctly. How will you know if that's been done unless you have a competent person supervising the works? You're going to have to trust whoever does the work so I'd go straight to that person and get them to inspect and advise, cutting out the middle man/woman and their associated fee.

In reply to Godwin:

In the first instance I'd look for a chartered building surveyor (RICS or CIOB member) who is also a chartered Building Engineer (a member of CABE). I've used a guy based around Chester a couple of times in the past relating to damp in our old house.

In reply to Godwin:

As I just explained in another post, it's even more complicated by the fact that around a third of our building stock dates to before c.1920. Most of these buildings are constructed in a fundamentally different way to modern buildings. Most building professionals, whether qualified or not, are unequipped to deal with them. There is no technical difference between the construction of Buckingham Palace and a Victorian terraced house which is unlisted.

If I owned a traditionally constructed house, I would treat it in much the same way as a listed building, that is by employing engineers, surveyors and contractors who are experienced with historic buildings and know what they're doing. I would avoid 'damp specialists' like the snake oil salesmen they are. RICS has a list of conservation accredited surveyors and theirs a similar register for structural engineers called the CARE register.

SPAB, the Socieity for the Preservation of Ancient Buildings has a wealth of resources on its website relating to common problems in traditional buildings, as well as a free advice line.

In reply to GEd_83:

This ^^

In reply to Godwin:

These Victorian properties weren't put up by Surveyors. General Builders do loads of different things, day in/out and likely come across the same problems all the time. A decent builder will likely be in a good position to tell you what the problem is and, even better, can quote you to fix it. 

Granted, if it's something obscure causing the problem then they might not have all the answers but at the end of the day it is usually something immediately obvious that has deteriorated or been done wrong (like blocking up all the sub-floor ventilation - something you see people do regularly to 'stop drafts'). 

99/100, the builder does just fine. It's only the 1 case which you hear about, as the person doesn't know where to turn. I'd wager most homeowners on here have had a problem, called a builder, got it fixed. Bish Bash Bosh.  

In reply to PaulJepson:

The skillset of Victorian builders was different to today's. Not necessarily better, but different. Knowledge of how to use lime mortars, renders and plasters was almost totally lost in the 20th century and most modern builders don't know how to deal with buildings that are made of the stuff. In fact, they usually don't know that they don't know!

Almost every building I walk past in my neighbourhood has identifiable defects caused by the 'bish bash bosh' approach. This ranges from the uninformed (cement pointing) to the disingenuous (damp proofing). 

In reply to Godwin:

youtube.com/watch?v=rRYfcd21EVI&

If you have had proper training as you say and years of experience and take pride in your work.... you may not want to watch the above.

If I was going to call someone in I'd call in a damp expert but you can find most stuff online to fix most things to do with modern damp.

Cheers

Toby

In reply to NobleStone:

I would say your approach is the gold standard, but possibly too expensive for many people, but probably cheaper in the long run.

Maybe there is a middle path. As Fraser suggests getting a trade's person, is a good approach. However I am wary of generalists, who I suspect may use modern solutions to patch an issue, as opposed to fix the problems.

I would agree that many modern solutions are unsuitable for older properties, particularly with regards to breathability.

I think a problem with some older houses is that they just were not designed for our current lifestyle's.

In reply to Godwin:

I completely agree apart from your last point. It's self-evident that old houses were not built for current lifestyles, but I think they tend to be more adaptable in the long run than the stuff we're building now.

In reply to Godwin:

When my wife and I first saw our current house online, and then viewed it - we fell in love with it instantly and wanted to buy it. The house is old ( around 400 years give or take). Because we know nothing about old houses we decided to go with a specialist surveyor from Saffron Walden who are specialists in timber framed old and listed houses. It was expensive for a survey , the surveyor was at the property nearly a whole day (according to the previous owners) and we got a comprehensive 30 page report with photos detailing the whole house.

We read through it, skimmed over all the "issues" and bought the house.

That was ten years ago. Every single thing that has gone wrong, that has failed, that has cost us money (there has been quite a lot) is in that report, we just chose to ignore it because we were blinded by the character of the property. Learned my lesson though - a comprehensive survey done by a qualified expert is worth it's weight in gold and should rule your head. Keep your heart away from the decision process.

In reply to Godwin:

Many "builders" are actually trained in a more specific trade but can turn their hands to other things as they've had to deal with such things to get their more specific job done. The question comes as to how far you take this.

I have an acquaintance who's a "builder" but is really a roofer but I'd happily trust him to re-build brick chimney, install a partition wall, fix up small plaster work jobs or repair the odd bit of plumbing. I wouldn't however trust him to build me a full brick extension, plaster a full room or plumb in a full central heating system.

I know that he'd refuse to do these extended works beyond his remit but many others will just have a go and potentially make a mess.

In reply to Godwin:

Interestingly, it was "modern" building materials that was causing one of the problems we were experiencing. The timber frame was rotting due to dampness build up caused by concrete pebble dashed render that had been slapped directly over the lath and daub probably sometime mid 20th century. We had it all removed, and fitted savolit wood wool boards all over and then lime plastered. The building is now insulated much more and can breath properly due to the lime render. It also looks nicer and more in keeping with its original design. Still draughty though

In reply to Toby_W:

Many of the faults found by the chap in the video are in reality plain deception and fraud.

Many of the faults are exactly the same as those found in the place my sister has recently bought, it seems odd that faults such as unattached roof ties should be replicated, it's not a difficult job.

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

I don't think there's anything wrong with buying a house with your heart, provided you also use your head and ensure that the things that look likely to go wrong with it are affordable to fix or can be insured.

Buying an old house is like buying a classic car.  If you want a reliable car, buy a newish one.  But it won't bring as much enjoyment if you like driving as a thing.

In reply to Neil Williams:

I'm not convinced even that's true.  You just get different problems.

In reply to NobleStone:

Good luck finding conservation accredited surveyors, they are like hens teeth and even then I wouldn't trust all of them. I think that I have employed every conservation accredited surveyor in the north of England at one time or another it isn't a long list.

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

I think that is the thing right there. A surveyor that has a clue. I paid a grand for a full building survey for a semi in Nottingham. There was nothing of any use in it whatsoever. Loads of issues with the house, none of them raised even as possibilities, clearly didn't know much about buildings of its construction.

Edit: I mean, he didn't even notice that one of the ceilings upstairs was caving in. No problem pointing out that another ceiling had polystyrene tiles and how big a fire hazard those are, but pointing out that a ceiling was about to hit our heads was apparently too much effort.

In reply to Alkis:

This is a problem.
A surveyors report is full of caveats. ie, there maybe a Damp, get a Damp Specialist.
A Damp Speciaist, what's this a moist special person? The people I come across purporting to be specialists in damp issues, work for firms selling damp solutions, touting dodgy 10,15 or 20 year warranties, from a firm that has been trading for 1 or two years.
It seems to be the same with all other issues, the surveyor pushes away responsiblity by suggesting you find a specialist. But all "speciaists" seem to be touting a product.

Getting unbiased expert advise is very difficult.

 

In reply to Alkis:

I know a case where a surveyor didn't even identify that there was an unsupported chimney in the loft where the previous owner had remover the chimney breast in the rooms below and made no effort to remove or support the stack above. This could have been fatal if it had collapsed.

Knowing how cursory surveys are I didn't even bother getting an official one done when I bought my place, I had a relative who deals with a lot of building trades have a look at it and left it at that.

Survey reports I have seen have included statements like "gas boiler is old and should be checked by a qualified person", "windows are old and not energy efficient". Pretty obvious stuff really.

The only big unexpected issues I had were due to timber rot in the bathroom floor and the loft space above the bathroom, neither of which would have been identified as no surveyor is going to pull up the floor or crawl into the furthest corners of a small loft space.

In reply to Godwin:

Who should you call about a large chip on one's shoulder?

In reply to Godwin:

I just look at all the guys I went to school with.  The thick ones are now tradesmen / builders.  Half of them probably can't even read the building regs, let alone understand them. Doing a proper job just eats into a builder's profits therefore any corners that can be cut without the homeowner knowing about get cut.

In reply to Charlie Noakes:

The problem is having only one chip, as I have one on each shoulder, I am perfectly balanced. How many do you have?

Ex labourer and RICS Chartered surveyor here. 

Getting a chartered surveyor to investigate an issue is the safest way to identify the problem as quickly as possible and resolve it properly. If identifying the problem is outside the realms of a surveyor then they will know where to go next. 

For builders: I’ve come across proud, skilled craftsmen and I’ve come across turnaround time hero’s. All of them have their own agenda. Usually it revolves around what works they want to/can do. The surveyor is there to make sure the situation is moving to the clients agenda. 

Be wary of anyone giving you advice on the condition prior to selling you a product. Especially damp specialists that go onto recommend injected Damp proof courses.  

The people I always see complaining about caveated building surveys are the ones that ring around looking for the cheapest home buyers survey possible. Getting a surveyor in is a tick box exercise for them and it’s a race to the bottom. 

If you want reasoned and good advice do some research and find the right surveyor and pay the right money. 
 

 
 

In reply to New Max:

Why do surveyors shy away from identifying causes of damp themselves and then suggest a damp survey they must know comes with strings attached?  It happens repeatedly, similarly with timber surveys.  Surely either do it themselves, or arrange for some who is actually capable, rather than selling?

In reply to gethin_allen:

We bought the mortgage surveyor's report. I found it recently after a decade of dismantling, mending and causing new issues in the house. I enjoyed a good chuckle at it and my own naievety. In fairness he spotted most of the visible issues* but that's about as much as I can say for it, identification of the relative seriousness and probable causes was miles off. Likewise for the 'damp survey' we followed up with, a tooth sucking probe jabbing sales pitch for largely unnecessary injected DPC and some fancy plaster. Understandable in some regards given the very limited access they have but in others it was just plain sloppy.

*except just how fragile and detached the plaster was. That would have been genuinely useful information.

jk

In reply to MG:

If it's the lowest cost type of home buyers survey, the surveyor doesn't have time to access the difficult to reach places and check for root causes. A diligent surveyor should in my opinion state the causes where things are easy to see and reasonably obvious to a knowledgeable person, but they should also state when things are not obvious and need further investigation to identify the cause. Recommending a 'damp survey' by a 'damp specialist' is a bit of a cop out. I think that a surveyor should know how to investigate that themselves given more time. Ultimately it comes down to what type of survey the buyer and/or lender request and the appetite of each for balancing risk against cost. 

In reply to Jimbo C:

I agree. It's the recommending a survey they must know will be bollocks that puzzles me. It just undermines their professional reputation.

In reply to MG:

Yep. I think the surveyor should be recommending that they are employed to come back with more equipment and investigate. The knowledge that a damp specialist has is often focused on their preferred product and how to apply it as per manufacturers instructions, they won't necessarily look at the bigger picture of how moisture is entering and moving through the building.