UKC

I've been spending a lot of time at a Manchester bouldering wall this winter, and I'm getting bored. The growing issue for me is that all the problems at e.g. V3/4 are black holds, V4/5 pink and the next one up are reds. The holds are very generic - the blacks are crimpy, pinks open handed and the reds some sort of bubbly pockety thing. We all know about the purples. There's almost zero variety within each grade and that quickly gets boring. I know there might be a commercial imperative to do this, as the walls need masses of people through the door to survive and that's obviously essential. I also appreciate that these easily confused masses need quick and easy differentiation so they can follow the blobs. However, when you're an ageing hero of trad like me, I wonder how effective it is in terms of training. I don't want to have to be climbing V6 at the wall to get better at pockety bubbly stuff which might hit me in the face at V4 in real life, 10ft above my last crap wires.

The kilter/moon/splatter boards are a million times more interesting, enjoyable & challenging and they seem to be completely transferrable to actual climbing. Am I alone in my boredom, or will I just have to suck it up & get used to it (or spend all my time on the boards)? Can someone convince me that I'm looking at this all wrong, and that there is joy to be found in the sameness?

Are there any walls where the problems are made up of a variety of colours to construct problems, maybe denoted by tags or whatnot? I seem to think Oldham might do this in their bouldering area.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/walls+training/do_all_the_depots_have_the...?

Get new setters

Yeah there was a thread on this exact subject a while back.  And yes it is annoying.  Some walls in London seem to have switched to a individually tagged problems approach - where any grade can be made up of any hold set.  Much more sensible approach for the reasons you highlighted IMHO. 

I didn't think I would be alone on this. It'd be useful to find out if there are any walls where they use a variety of colours.

I agree. I really miss really interesting setting at lower grades.

At Sheffield Depot I use the circuit board to train strength and endurance. In between I occasionally use the set problems to gauge how getting stronger enables me to do harder problems, however some resets are harder and some easier. I miss Broughton with its subtle food features etc which trained good technique more than coloured blobs seem to be able to

Seems silly to me to use the same type of holds repeatedly for the same grade problems, especially if each colour is ass distinctive and limited as you describe. Would it be so much of a problem if pockety purples became a hard circuit instead of an easy one, but slopey yellows were now easier? Sure, you'd need to consult a notice board or whatever to find out which circuits were in your target range, but how hard is that? And surely the advantage of variety within your range would more than be worth it.

I'd have a word with the staff and make your case for more variety at each grade over time.

Agreed, I tend todo that now too. You can still get a taste of Broughton at Glossop Leisure Centre. No two holds are the same and the footwork often needs to be very subtle.

I will ask them about it next time, but with an almost corporate identity these days, I doubt the Depot will change anything if it's getting the numbers in through the door. My counter argumernt will be that a greater variety in each grade range will bring more people in because we won't all be getting bored.

We have three Depots in Leeds.  The setting and holds in Pudsey are similar to Manchester and Sheffield.  Armley is very different.  It has lots of large, modern comp style holds (even for the easy Whites).  Personally I find the grading harder and less enjoyable and I have friends who feel the same.  But some people love the style . So I’d be careful what you wish for

Another of the local Leeds walls (Last Sun Dance) uses a mixture of colours (and therefore hold types) across the grades, with starting tags indicating the V grade.  I like this but the setting and grading can still be a little inconsistent - the same as anywhere.

I think it’s great that there are so many walls to visit.  There’s plenty of variety to be had.

We should climb together again sometime to see how effective this training malarkey has been.

My problem with them, and most lead walls now, is that they're all much the same and I get easily bored by them. OK 'natural' feel panels  have their limitations but everywhere looks the same. New Leeds Wall for example; all very swish, wide variety of holds but somehow less interesting than the old one . fewer grooves, corners, real roofs etc. 

Having bouldered at one of the best indoor walls in northern Italy... I'm currently very thankful for the quality of some of the newer UK bouldering walls! My local wall here is really good quality, and when I think of walls that used to serve this area 10 or 15 years ago, walls are tending to get better and better in my view.

I definitely think there is an issue with setting low grade problems, though, and that this is very common. VB to V4 tend to be set soft; a big part of this is that there are far too many jugs. This tends to mean dull problems that teach very little. Whereas outside, a thin grit V2 can put up a good fight, even if you've just done a V6 around the corner.

But, occasionally, even so, there is something wonderful: thin, balancy, technical, a good crimp, and then suddenly dynamic, before a sketchy finish! More please

We were loving lancaster wall but same there too.

Its now come to that time of year where we have been quite a few times. And now as you said its getting boring. 

It needs spicing up a bit plus they really need a full reset there. Its now looking likewe might be doing alternate walls in Blackburn or Walton summit its that stale.

Shame really! Come on guys lets vary it a bit!

Big bouldering walls these days tend to reset sections at a time (fairly regularly) rather than the whole wall at once. This means that a change in circuit colour would require a pretty massive reset and mean the wall being closed for a significant chunk of time. 

Modern walls are great in some ways and naff in others. I see it as a tool, nothing stopping me making my own routes for variety. Or adapting hard (for me) problems with a different coloured foot hold or something. 

I agree with the OP that it a shame you can end up climbing on similar holds if you stick to the circuits. I also agree with the OP that the Kilter is mega!

As you mentioned Manchester, the new(ish) Rock Over in Sharston takes the approach you're asking for (using a mix of holds for each circuit and marking them with tags). Maybe that's how it works at all of their locations, I'm not sure.

Personally, I can see why single coloured circuits have taken off. I'm pretty bad at committing to a problem and working on it, so I generally prefer to whizz around a circuit at around the difficulty I can either just about flash or take a couple of goes on. Maybe it's just my poor observation skills but when I'm relying on tiny, curled-up tags in a dimly lit corner, I find it really frustrating trying to follow a circuit without missing half the problems. Much quicker and easier to blast around all the Oranges. So it does have benefits for some groups of experienced climbers, not just beginners.

Awesome Walls, my main venue, just moved to using the Griptonite app, and I can see that the map on that, which is really pretty good, might make following a tagged circuit easier.

Presumably the real solution would be for hold manufacturers to produce mixed sets of holds (or for walls to buy them if they're already being produced). Maybe I'm missing a good reason for having all holds of a certain colour be a similar style, it would seem to make more sense for route setting but it does seem counter-productive for the main way they're used at most bouldering walls. This complaint has come up several times before.

City Bloc in Leeds has the same approach. As does Onyx in Blackburn - which based on my two visits, is a haven for lovers of crimpy technical problems - mercifully little jumping between volumes and wrestling giant blobs. 

I don't really think "modern bouldering walls" are the issue - some walls have used specific colours / hold sets for certain grade ranges for decades. I guess it just seems more systemic now due to chains like the Depot being so prevalent.

Blochaus in Manchester use various hold sets and use tags for the grades. Setting is very different to the depot so if you are getting bored at the Manchester Depot it might be worth trying as a change? 

Really, what else can you ask for? Lancaster Wall have a very large space with probably approaching 200 problems. They also have a woody, a circuit board, a Kilter Board, a traverse wall and a mini-gym. And they reset parts every week or fortnight - certainly very regularly. I think there are things that would fit my personal preferences better, but I've no doubt at all that it's one of the best bouldering walls in the UK and probably happily within the top 100 in Europe, maybe even top 50. I think if you're bored it's probably a problem with your approach, not the wall. As an aside, I got outside today and Sunday, and will probably get outside climbing again this week. So... ...?

Hi there, Boulder UK in Preston and Eden Rock in Carlisle. Both have graded circuits made up of a variety of colours with the grade and the starting holds marked at the bottom of each route.

I’m an old stick in the mud, so quite like following a classic black crimp fest around a centre. However, none of it is as bad the climbing walls in the states where you follow coloured insulation tape.

It is a big problem at the Depot (and presumably other walls with the same system but I climb regularly at the Depot so am much more aware of it). Having the same holds that you use, over and over, for the same grade circuits really limits the style of problems they can set. And it's boring - I know the red and purple holds too well by now! I definitely prefer the walls that tag their problems with grades rather than using colour circuits - they feel much less stale! 

Can definitely second Moose's suggestion of a trip to Onyx. They reset in sections and mix up the holds so there's much more variety throughout the grade ranges. Well, unless you want dual-tex parkour problems, bat hangs and the like...

Given that these days all holds come in all colours, then we just need the Depot to buy some more red holds from a different manufacturer.   Then we can have the best of both worlds, different hold types and a coloured circuit!

Totally agree with you, at a lower grade (due to lack of fitness, strength and talent) at MCR Depot, the blues are nearly all nice big holds, but the next colour up - black - is very tweaky on the fingers. Until I get some ability and finger strength back (hopefully), I'd like some harder problems with the blue holds.

Not been for a little while but at Rock-Over (Strangeways), they always used coloured discs by the starting holds to indicate the grade and although each problem would be a single colour, it could be any colour so hold types and route styles were well mixed across the grades.

I'll be going back there once my Depot multi-pass runs out.

But most of all, I miss Broughton, which was so much better at being decent training for real rock - but then that's not what bouldering walls are for anymore.

Not local to you at all but interesting case in point is alien bloc in Edinburgh. They have a grade range for each colour with overlap meaning you get a variety. I personally really like this (didn't at first but do now), especially how it stops you getting hung up on grades. Also they're adept at the art of  'easy but interesting' problem setting. Disclaimer - I only go bouldering about once a month, max v5 & haven't read the full thread (sorry!)

White Spider down here has just made the change to tagged grades rather than the previous coloured circuits. https://www.instagram.com/p/C12FurbtZAO/?igsh=cWd0MDl2b3hwcWV5

I think this will be the norm for most walls eventually as it makes things more interesting for setters and climbers.

Volume 1 in East Grinstead use a tag system for grading problems.

That provides a really good variety of styles for each grade.

A set of crimpy little holds that can make a nice technical 7A in one set can be used to make a nice technical 6A in the next set.

This system enables everyone to get experience on different types of holds and setting.

CB.

It seems to me the problem is the insistence on having coloured "circuits". Just have a problem labelled with its grade at the bottom whatever the colour. Ignoring colours completely and using tags also works but is a bit messy.

Were absolutely spoilt with the number and variety of modern walls and yet, and yet they’re often not that good at training you for actual climbing.

As well as the points made, there’s a reluctance to set smaller holds, exactly what you’d meet at F4 and upwards outdoors. I get why and it probably doesn’t matter to the 50%+ who only climb indoors. The circuit board and splatter board have been rewarding lately, making up your own problems as in the olden days or trying to find a replica move.

Onyx is a decent wall for training, I felt properly worked after my one visit there (and happy take a couple of harder flashes, they must know what they’re doing after all).

Another vote for Blochaus!! To be honest, since it opened I haven't been to the Depot, I always found it crowded and the routes a bit "samey" at each grade as the OP says. Now Blochaus have switched to using all coloured holds for all grades and labelling with tags the variety has definitely improved as well.

Boulder UK & Onyx are my walls of choice. Both use a range of the hold types they have available across the grades. I can recommend them both!

Lancaster is a superb wall, no doubt. Great facilities, staff, vibe and problem setting.

My thought would be maybe keeping the same hold colour sets, just simply changing the grades that apply to them every 12 months.

So the mints became the V3-V5 set and the oranges became the V5-V7 set, for example.

This would help problems in their respective grade range becoming “samey” for want of a better word!

Not suggesting they must do it, just might help mix it up a bit. 

Blimy Glossop wall

Recall fondly trying the tufa feature on the left wall from sitting without much success

also if you close your eyes you could actually be at minus 10 😀

best £3.50 ever spent their 

Whilst this is arguably better, it does mean the wall would have to reset two entire circuits simultaneously - which isn't the way setting schedules work at most walls I've encountered, which reset everything in a certain area at a certain time. 

For sure, it's defiantly lazy hold purchases by walls. Manufacturers will supply anything in any colour! 

Gods own climbing wall. greatly missed. 

I always get bored of my local wall at this time of year (the unit) , the constant crap feet and crap holds. Sometimes I just want to pull hard on some crimps. Fortunately I have plenty of gyms within striking distance if I want a change, and we're having some pretty decent weather for outdoor bouldering this year. 

The Depots generally do one coloured circuit at a time (across the whole centre).  About once a week, stripping the entire circuit one day, washing the holds and then re-setting it another.

The Works too, and they've done what John suggests before now.  I think probably accidentally, because they seem to care more about the quality of the problems than the consistency of the grading.  (Thumbs up from me.)  A couple of times their middle of the range coloured circuits have leapfrogged each other when they've reset an easier one significantly harder than it was before, and then the following week reset the harder one a bit easier to make up for it.

There's drawbacks to however you do it. In London Mile End have recently gone to a tag system, they still have colours for the circuits but they are the tags. And they don't have grades, just easy through to extremely hard because newer wall users were finding mile end grading a bit disheartening compared to other walls they've been to

I like a mix of circuit and individual graded problems outside of the circuits. The problem you said about one style of holds per colour can be mitigated by having a big crossover

I go twice a week and partially disagree with your assessment.

Pinks are very similar as you say.

Blacks are a bit samey.

There's actually a good variety of reds.

It's a trade off, take a multipass or monthly and it makes financial sense to go to the same place, but you will get to know the holds well ........ or sod the expense and go to different walls. 

I agree, and have raised this with Steve D when I've seen him at the wall but don;t get your hopes up. The Depot "brand" has the same grade bands across sites (apart from Armley I think) so the best we can hope for is more variety of holds in each colour circuit. I agree the progression from blacks* (crimpy V3-V4) to reds (font-esque slopers V3-V5) seems a harsh transition.

Having said that, and despite climbing there a lot and knowing most of the holds inside out, there has been some really good setting recently, for example the current red set has some real head scratchers that I have really enjoyed, and they are changing two circuits a week at the moment so there is variety.

* I have never really enjoyed the black circuit as the holds are all small and sharp. This set does have some very outdoors-y style problems though.

I don't know any of the Depots, but at the walls that I've been to that suffered from the same problem, more variety within each colour would have been fine.

I don't recognise the problem with hold types, at least at the Sheffield depot. There are plenty of black problems up at the moment with slopers, jugs and pockets. I do think there are some deliberate decisions by the Depot that mean it doesn't appeal to all demographics of climber.

I think they set problems for people who are either beginners or climbers who focus mostly on bouldering. The easier circuits require less technical ability than they do at other climbing walls, which provides a better experience for new climbers as they don't get shut down by difficult movement patterns they are not ready for yet. They expect these beginners to get stronger as their technique improves so each harder circuit requires more strength as well as more technique. Problems in the harder circuits have difficult technical moves but also require a lot of strength and power as this is what experienced boulderers want so they can train effectively. 

This all means that people with good technique who are not particularly strong often have complaints about the setting, these are usually experienced climbers who do not do much indoor bouldering. Climbers who don't do much indoor bouldering is probably not the most important demographic for an indoor bouldering wall so I wouldn't expect this to change any time soon. One option would be to make a new "techy but not powerful" circuit that would cater to experienced climbers but not put off the newer climbers who currently enjoy the easy circuits.

At Manchester MCC (Parthian) and Blochaus the problems are graded by tags so you get a mix of holds, but obviously the bouldering at both of those centres is much more limited than depot. 

Completely agree. There are (valid) reasons walls all tend to set a lot of non-technical, juggy easier problems. It doesn't suit me, but there is a rationale.

The Castle did this recently (shuffle the colours around) and it hasn't made much difference, because the circuits are spaced too far apart. For a very long time, the V1-V2 circuit was too easy for me and the V3-V4 circuit too hard, with only a few "off piste" individually graded routes in between.

Other walls either have off piste grades with individual tags, lots of very tightly spaced circuits (Arch) or circuits with wider overlapping grade ranges (Substation, some LCC walls). 

This problem at the Castle exists at higher grades as well. I have a taller friend who can "lank" past most V3-V4 problems which are therefore too easy, but the V5-V6 circuit is too hard. There's little in the sweet spot.

One thing I do like about the Unit is the overlap in circuits. Most grades have at least two circuits that cover them, so there's plenty to go at for each. There's extra overlap at the V3-V5 level which covers a huge portion of the climber base.

I believe it's still there - it's certainly on the Glossop Leisure Centre's website - £4.50/visit

If it was nearby I'd go, the sadly deceased Broughton Power was <10mins away ☹

I wonder if walls couldn't add a few intermediate Screw On Dinkies™ which could be used by the weak until their strength improves until they can finally do the problem cleanish (a SOD off tick). 

I think the structure and shape of the walls themselves at the Sheffield Depot also tend to make that a bit more difficult for the setters to do.  I was a bit disappointed when it first opened to find that they'd used their vast space to come up with something much less varied than they already had in Manchester at the time.  The three big 'islands' are all quite similar really and they have a lot of overhanging flat wall compared to the acreage of slab and vert, let alone corners, arches etc.

The creativity of the setting was distinctly 'meh' in their early days too though credit where credit is due, they've raised their game considerably since then and it's very good now.

That’s a shame. Although sounds slightly different to Lancaster where the grade bands are purposefully overlapped, which is why I think such a move there might well work. 

The Mile End solution does result in lots of slightly mindblowing sentences like “have you tried that green blue over there?” I’m still not particularly sure why they went for a colour code for difficulty rather than a number or a symbol…

I agree as you get to know the holds and what to expect. I had a discussion about the generic nature of the holds for each colour with the management at the Depot in Manchester last winter asking them if they could change the colours and grade bandings. They said it couldn’t be done as it was a corporate decision across the other centres. I think it would be interesting and challenging for the route setters as well as the centre users.

Especially with some of the incredibly gymnastic awkward low starts set on many problems. 

Perhaps there's a market for a holds lending library. Our local wall manages to borrow new sets that sit outside their normal colour coded bands.

Just use the reds for V2-V4 and the blacks for V3-V5 at the next reset.

But don’t tell anyone 

I have a bit of a rota, including Macclesfield wall and Stockpot. Adds a bit of variation. Better still head over to the Works in Sheffield.

And while they're about it: voltarol dispensers at reception in place of the hand sanitiser 

I am guessing , but they must be standardising the setting across their walls to make it more efficient in changing circuits. Keeps the costings in resetting down. A bit like Ford, you can have any colour as long as it’s black. 
 

Clever bit of productivity to run the business side. 

Yes, absolutely. Current walls and route setting are just amazingly compared with a couple of decades ago. We definitely shouldn't forget this. I think Martin doth protest too much. 

Absolutely. EVERY SINGLE WALL! 

(well, apart from The Works that just does its own thing whilst vaguely pretending to use Font grades...) 

However, it's now so widespread that it has just established a new normal. Woe betide a boulderer from London actually going climbing in Heuco Tanks!

I've not been to the Substation in years, probably since it first opened. What are the good and bad points of it?

Not sure if this has been mentioned but bring back brick edge traversing walls like Guilford or the Sobel Centre for proper fitness!

Volume 1 is a decent enough wall with some pretty engaging setting.

Unfortunately, in addition to being atrocious value for money, it has the WORST attempt at grading in existence. It is probably the most useless I have ever encountered in nearly 3 decades of climbing and makes every single one of the 16 poorly graded walls (out of 17) I've climbed at in the last 18 months seem vaguely reasonable. (See my previous post about systematically poor and soft grading up to V4.) 

They just need to rip down their signage with grade ranges, stop pretending to grade problems on the TopLogger app then they'd actually be perfectly fine, in the same manner as the Climbing Hangars which have very sensibly decided to grading completely.

Lol. The old Guildford wall! That's a real blast from the past...

This is just a problem of using V grades, though, right? You use V grades because "it's just numbers so it's easier to understand for beginners", but V0 isn't actually that easy so if you want to cater to absolute beginners then you either have to grade beginner problems at things like VB-- which undermines the whole "just numbers" argument, or - as most walls do - you just pretend that V0 is a jug ladder up a slab and V1 is a jug ladder up a vertical wall.

That sounds like solid E5, may be E6. I think most people climbing at that level would want to be doing V6 indoors.

On a serious point, this kind of lament comes up on the forums now and then. Somewhere like MCR you’ve got loads of indoor options to mix it up, both in MCR itself and in neighbouring towns and cities.

Good setters can set different styles of problems using the same set of holds. Perhaps the setting isn’t great?

Agree that using different sets of holds for problems within a certain grade range makes for more variety but personally I just find it annoying having to scout around looking for the next V whatever. We have a wall in Brum which follows this approach and some people like it but I’m not a fan, though that’s partly due to so-so setting and limited wall space by modern standards. We also have a small wall which has only about 20 problems per circuit but the setting is excellent and it really isn’t an issue that they use the same holds for each circuit (although it does help that there are two circuits that cover a similar grade range). 

In summary, I can see your point but at a good wall it’s not really an issue. 

Endurance or power endurance - sure, but did you mean the woodies for strength?

Assuming Frank is referring to the Depot, he is oversimplifying. Each set of holds follows a theme to some extent but there’s a fair bit of variety within each set. Rather than mixing things up, I’d like more frequent resets (twice a week in Sheff is great, only once a week in Brum not so great, not sure about MCR) and more replacement of worn out holds. 

Mainly power endurance projecting circuits until I can link them, but also strength by working short sections of circuits that are much too hard for me, quite specific on finger strength ( which has worked surprisingly well for me) so yes I probably should spend time on the woodies too working different grips and longer moves

 > I definitely think there is an issue with setting low grade problems, though, and that this is very common. VB to V4 tend to be set soft; a big part of this is that there are far too many jugs. This tends to mean dull problems that teach very little.

Indeed, although good setters will make things interesting at all levels. The issue is that indoor walls have to be vertical or overhanging for the most part to accommodate harder problems. This means easier problems have to be unnaturally juggy.

That’s a really good point. It’s much easier to take down all the reds or whatever, mix them up and put up new ones. Otherwise at a large wall like the Depot you’d be resetting in sections. People would then be complaining that the slab / cave / vertical wall hasn’t been reset for ages. It would also cause congestion in areas which have been reset more recently. 

Conversely, knowing the holds means you can climb a bit harder. 

Like redpointing a route I guess. 

That's just a lazy excuse.....  I support proper grading for bumblies and beginners as much as anyone and yet can see trying to use Fun, VB, V0- and V0 as Rockfax once did would be absolutely OK. I've climbed many indoor V4s that would be BMC Peak definitive grit V0, and many indoor V0s that were easy fun ladders. But hey.... grades for lower grade bouldering are even worse in Font (albeit on the sandbag side).

As for Depot I tend to agree with Martin and I find it worse after a layoff, as the better variety on reds is more out of reach and the sharp edges on some blacks need care to avoid injury. I'd argue the distribution peak of indoor customers by grade ability is impacted by this and the dumb grade over-stretching at the low end. I certainly wish I could have The Climbing Station or The Unit a bit closer to home. Setting quuality, given hold types, seems good in all dedicated bouldering walls these days.

Best will in the world, I remember those, and Uxbridge as well, and even being in a generous mood they were not very good .

Proper firness....ehhh..... not so sure about that either....

Sounds like the problem isn't setting but purchasing, buying all holds of the same type in the same colour.

It makes sense from a stockholding perspective for the easier stuff (especially if you don't have lots of cave area) the jugs will always make easier problems but beyond that, there's no real reason why holds of a type should be of a colour.

Coloured circuits at a grade/grade-band are a great idea when done well.

jk

Shout out to Wolf Mountain in Wolverhampton - the venue uses holds of all colours and styles within a single grade.

The grade of the climb is denoted by colored tags on the starting holds, not by the color of the holds.

MCR is two circuits a week so same as Sheff. They have also started using Contact Holds' refurbishing service* which means some of those red font-esque slopers have a bit more bite again! Much better than binning them and buying new.

*you can spot the refurb-ed holds as they have the Contact Holds refurb symbol on them.

Seen a few of these, with the recycling symbol. Thought they were just made from recycled resin. It’s a great idea and the friction on them is excellent. How long it lasts, time will tell. They also seem to come in new shapes, presumably because the original holds get ground down a bit. Will put in a request for more refurbs!

I'm going to play in part.. devil's advocate. Yesterday I went to a bouldering wall I don't  use regularly (should that be "bouldering gym"?) and I can walk in and see all the VB are green and purple and V1 are black and v1-2 are red and the yellows are .. and the are ... etc.

I like that. Because I can walk in and just look and think warmup on those, climb some of them and maybe start working on one of them my son should climb one of them, and I'm only just walking in the door

(OK, maybe apart from green and purple enormous jugs ) It's possible to get a wide variety of holds in most colours so you are the victim of unimaginative route setting not colour selection, stop being purpleist!

You'd have thought that being a chain they would be able to exercise economy of scale and share hold sets between their walls. One walls' worth of spares rotated between multiple walls is far cheaper than 1 set for 1 wall.

You will soon have a choice of two Depots in MCR.

https://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/deal-struck-in-wythenshawe-for-europes-lar...

Yes, absolutely.

There is not a single wall out there using V grades that tries to grade things at V1 accurately for exactly that reason. They don't want to demoralise new climbers. 

However, that's just a cope out. Two of the really new walls I've climbed at have just abandoned any attempt at grading which works absolutely fine.

I never understood why, instead of wrestling with V0-, VB or whatever, we couldn't just use a different letter for introductory level problems, say U1 to U3, after which people can progress onto V1, V2, etc.  Then new climbers will quickly appreciate that getting up V1 or harder isn't something they should expect to be able to do straight off, and they won't need to get their heads around confusing grades.

Broughton...OMG, how good would climbing walls/climbers be if walls were more like Broughton. NB: for the younger ones out there, pretty much everybody who climbed there onsighted E5+ and 7c...in the mid 80s!!!!

So sad they went with Big Depot Manchester.

Mega Depot Manchester sounds so much better 😂

Best wall ever. Those were the days!!!

#BroughtonPower.

Ahem ...Broughton was built by Bendcrete  in 1991.Designed by Ian Dunn and Paul Ingham I think 

Designed by Geoff Hibbert

Hello there

Sorry if someone has already mentioned this but The Boardroom in Queensferry have recently changed the way they set/grade their boulders and its much better. Not too far from Manchester so thought I would mention just incase.

They've moved away from V grades, and instead have a letter system, from A to H; A being the easier, H the hardest. 
(of course, if you want to know a grade, it's now not possible, but essentially you'll kind've figure out where you sit in the new letter system once you've climbed a few)

Each climb is now individually tagged with a letter, and it has made for a great selection of styles within each letter, because they are no longer restricted to a single hold colour set per grade.

For example, they might have a B on green holds, another B on black holds, and another B on yellow holds, and all the hold sets are different so you can sample a variety of shapes and sizes. So far, for me, they've managed to keep the difficulty fairly consistent within each letter, but the style has varied loads which has been great. (For a point of reference I'm climbing from A upto E, and projecting the odd F, so i can't comment on the G or H!)

I've genuinely enjoyed bouldering alot more since they made this change so it could be an excuse to try it out if you're in that area at any point.

Have fun

It's still more complicated for the people only climbing indoors than just starting at V0 and ignoring the fact that you're out of line with outdoor grades though, isn't it. I expect the walls figure that the minority of people who boulder often outside and care about the misalignment with outdoor grades:

a) understand the grading system well enough to comprehend the difference

b) don't really have any competing walls available that do grade in line with outdoors

c) aren't going to stop climbing

Whereas new climbers who've only ever climbed indoors might actually be put off by a slightly more complex grading system, or one that seems to put their grades in a special category of "not even hard enough for the proper grading system" and not bother coming back to climbing, or to that wall.

I take your point, but I'm not sure low-grade problems "have to be" juggy. For a start, you can use volumes or larger holds to turn a vert wall into something slabbier. You can also pair good feet with poor hands and poor feet with good hands. Or, make good holds into side-pulls and undercuts... Or have good holds force you out of balance, poor holds keep you in balance. There are lots of ways of mixing things up. The biggest let down, usually, is not the jugs per se but that they are paired with enormous feet. Often, this is even the case on the slab...

There will always need to be, and should be, some "left jug, right jug" problems for absolute newbies and to accommodate for different ability and mobility levels, but it's great when you get interesting easy problems. I mean, almost everyone who visits does some of the easy problems: even if you're climbing harder, you probably warm up on easier problems. So, it's worth giving them some focus.

There’s no need for parity between wall grades and rock grades whatever scale you use as they can never be the same. Just like lots of new climbers who have got fit on indoor lead walls being disappointed to find that 6b on Peak limestone is very different and at first a lot harder than 6b at AW. There are only 3 grades for indoor bouldering: easy, too hard, and challenging but doable. The colour coding or tags just help you find the most appropriate problems for your personal enjoyment and/or training goals

I was going to post about the Boardroom, so you've preempted me. I started going there on the day it opened while I was living in Coedpoeth near Wrecsam. I haven't been since they changed the circuits grades to multiple colours. I think it prob is the future for the independents, maybe the big chains will take longer, if at all. Eden Rock in Carlisle has gone down this route, and I'm gradually getting my (elderly) head around it.

I've been really impressed by how successful the Boardroom became, and how it's grown and developed. Certainly one of the best around, and unexpected for a centre on an industrial estate between Connah's Quay and Chester. Definitely worth a visit on the way to or from the mountains etc. Ian Vickers used to be a regular setter, so I assume they've kept up the high standard.

tbh, I've never had a problem with single colour circuits, for me its really about setting style and vibe, which is where the independents seem to excel. Back in Sheffield, (just my opinion), the Depot is all about burly moves for 18 year olds, the Climbing Hangar is a very crowded student union/youth club, dont go to Awesome Walls for bouldering, then over with the independents, I never get bored with the techy ClimbingWorks, and the Foundry has the sublime wave - one of the O.G pieces of bouldering real estate.

wrt brick edge cruising back in the day, wasn't it the limitations of that kind of training that led to the development of the cellar woodies and the School room and Foundry?

We tried 'Under' V grades on our old Peak Lower Grade Grit site (still viewable with a Flash browser) but it never caught on: U9~ UK 5a, down to U0  ~ UK 2a and below (typical easy technicality of a boldish mod). Also if Font was properly graded, U9 was f4C down to U0 at f1. However I really don't think such distinctions help in a modern wall indoors given the risk of falling is usually low, experience levels differ a lot and so does morphology. Hence, I think the slightly distorted range in the old Rockfax guide of fun, VB, V0-, V0 (which would be V0- in any other guidebook at that time) works well indoors. UK normalised Font is a better system but is used so badly there is no proper common understanding sub f5. I like what The Works do with a Font range though: way more honest than most walls.

Broughton used UK tech grades, and had more than 600 listed problems

I know. One of the “Broughton 4” was mine…

Seem to remember it including the resin add-on holds 32a and 32b IIRC. 

If you had 9 grades below V1, I'm not surprised it didn't catch on. I was thinking more like 3, in much the same way as scrambling grades are used.

My impression is that this problem has been realised by most walls and the smaller ones have already made the changes or always had it this way. 

SubStation Macclesfield recently switched approach to tagging (level 1-6) which has definitely improved variety of problems at each grade. 

I do find that there is sufficient overlap between 2 colour sets at Depot to give variety and in the mid grades Pink and Red cover pretty much the same range - think it's V2-5 for pink and V3-5 for red, then if you include black V2-4 there is a petty decent range of styles for the mid ability climber. 

I am certain that setters would prefer to set cool problems and then grade them later, rather than feeling constrained by having to try to stick within a range dictated by the colour.

I don’t disagree but I think my basic point is correct in most cases - anything vertical or overhanging will need to have juggy holds for the easier routes, as that’s a lot steeper than the vast majority of climbing at a similar grade outdoors. Of course juggy is a relative term - I’m thinking anything that would be described as a jug outdoors.

Branding must be a big part of the reason for companies with several walls. This has been mentioned above - can’t change at X wall because it’s the same at all the other ones. That’s important because it’s part of the brand. I can walk into any Depot, see the same colours and a similar (but not identical) set of holds and broadly know what I’m getting. Just like any other branded product.

Do people want their Diet Coke to taste different from one can to another? Perhaps some people do but most know what they are going to get and expect to get that and not something else. Coca Cola certainly don’t want their Diet Coke tasting differently. Walls don’t have to follow this approach but it makes total sense from a business perspective. Building and reinforcing brand identity. Particularly if you want to sell the business at some point…

There are supposedly 12 in Font (4,3,2,1 each subdivided with a,b,c)!! Plus ungraded even easier scramble problems below those on kids white circuits and todlers purple heart circuits. It's all fantastically equitable and welcoming on circuits, except most of the indivdual grades are wrong. I do agree though about three bands but in Font that would relate to white, easy yellow and hard yellow/easy orange.

I think this is partly the case - imagine if every wall in the same chain had different colour circuits (!!!) , but I know that LCC have off piste grading at EustonWall and circuits at their other London locations. Also, White City Bouldering and City Bouldering Aldgate are off piste grading but the former has a bias towards easier routes (it's at Westfield and attracts families) and the latter towards harder routes (it attracts office workers)

I've been to the Boardroom and enjoyed their offpiste A-H (Absolutely fine to Hard) grading. Similarly the newly opened Onyx manages to be both interesting and useful to outdoor climbers, without being constrained by colour banded grades. Nice one them.

My favourite is some sort of scale doesn’t matter what you call it, numbers, letters, chillis on each individual problem. Eden rock has recently done this with 1-6 and my opinion there setting has improved magnitudes since the old circuits. I do think there should be bit more than 6 categories tho, 6 imo often feels too squished. Maybe like 8ish? categories from warm up to proper nails. Hangars/depots have the right number of gradienting categorys.
 

Coloured circuits can work pretty well sometimes also but does require a much bigger hold budget to keep it interesting and I also believe every so often the colours should change around to keep it interesting. The works does style this very well and undoubtedly has some the best setting in the country. 

Also in favour of a few (depending on wall size) of next level ultra hard that stay up ages/semi permanently for us mortals to one day project individual moves and travelling wads to show their skills. Alien bloc has this on the few bosi pushers lurking around. 

I don’t really think there needs to be much of a relation to anything outdoors. Any setter or wall regular could happily provide a rough guide if a beginner was hoping to gauge a level for their first times outside. 

Each wall will always have their own vibe and style (and soft/sanbagness) and I think that’s actually a good thing. If anything that replicates various outdoor venues!, not that indoor walls even need to try to do that!

One of the things I liked about Broughton was that if you had totally mastered a "+" grade, you knew that you'd be unlikely to meet a move at that grade outside that you wouldn't be able to do.

Not remotely close to Manc. but just adding to the discussion..

When it first opened (18months ago) Friction in Gateshead used overlapping font-graded colour-consistent sets ie. yellows 6a-6b+, orange 6b-6c+, black 7a+-7c etc. Routes spread all over the centre were reset a colour at a time, twice a week in a 6-week cycle.

IMO there were advantages to being able to smash round ~20 problems 6a-6b but inevitably there were weeks when the 7a+and beyond and the 4-5+ sets were being redone, which wouldn't offer anything new for me.

Another downside was that there were loads of cool-looking holds in the upper grades that many people would never get a go on ie. blacks and pinks set above 6c+.

After maybe a year they switched to V grades (which I can take or leave, and eventually reverted) but more importantly they went to a tag colour system (located next to the griptonite tags) at the start of each problem, and setting by section. Tag colours are still a range (6b-6c, 6c+-7a) etc, but each route is graded individually.

There's maybe 12 sections, and at each reset there's 15-20 new problems from f5 all the way up to 7a/b. I hugely prefer this new way. Most importantly, the hold type variety is massive across the board; there's now 6a problems now using what were exclusively 7a and above holdsets, Nearly every regular I talk to about it prefers this system to the old.

Big Rock stopped having fixed colours for bouldering problems a few years after they opened because it was indeed too restrictive.  A given problem is always one colour (as otherwise it's a bit confusing for most) but now any colour is used at any grade and tags show what the grade is, which works far better in variety terms.  You need tags anyway to give the starting holds so this is no great overhead to either install or look for!

Unless it's changed since last winter, twas ever thus at Rock-Over near t'county jail.

Decent jamming problems (or any jamming at all really) are pretty rare.  When they are set they do tend to be laughably over-graded but I can put up with that!  A Wideboyz corner would be a great addition to any serious wall.

My pet hate is the setting of ridiculously awkward starts based on stupidly artificially placed mandatory handholds.  In fact, anything that makes a more creative sequence 'cheating'.

Not a fan of the parkour but it's fun trying to do it statically.

Ah yes, those problems where you get on then reach down to a stupid hold just above mat level ...or you could just climb it. I don't think they're meant for grumpy blokes

On the plus side my regular wall has just abandoned coloured circuits and adopted the coloured tags thing. Tons more variation on what they can set with any colour of holds. Fully approve.

The most recent black reset at Depot Manc has included a load of new black holds so maybe they have heard our whinging......

They had this at the depot on the wooden circuit, but they got rid of them all a few years ago now which was a real loss for this type of climbing....

I’m surprised nobody has mentioned the atrocious music sometimes played at modern bouldering walls. Only last week I had to suffer James Brown’s Get on Up played very loud whilst trying to complete the blue in a oner and work moves on the purple at Sheffield Depot’s circuit board; very hostile environment. They should take note of AW’s usual playlist of mellow classic rock.

I’m surprised nobody has mentioned the atrocious music sometimes played at modern bouldering walls. Only last week I had to suffer Awesome Walls dreadful Dad Rock; very hostile environment. They should take note of The Depot's playlist of James Brown classics.

Awesome Walls at Stockport should close down for numerous reasons but the soundtrack is certainly up there. Absolutely abysmal. 

Goodness me, there’s at least 6 miserable posters here with no sense of humour, flaneur excepted; brilliant!

It's always great fun to sneak onto the Wide Boy problems after they have run a teaching session

You should have gone before you went out. Or at least dug a hole.

[Selective quoting strikes again!]