UKC

Over 60's recovery

I was 60 last November. And im starting to struggle to recover from training sessions and from my job, which is very physical.

Any tips or advice from the over 60's on how you manage your recovery.

Last year I was probably the fittest I've ever been but I trained solid for months. 

Guess it just gets harder 

In reply to TreeclimbingRob:

Eat more protein. A mate of mine is a professional cycling coach and discussed with me the body's need for extra protein to aid recovery. Can't remember the percentages as we age but at a point it needs something mad like an extra 30% more of the stuff to aid repair and recovery.

In reply to TreeclimbingRob:

There is an increasing amount being written about training and performance for older male climbers e.g. https://latticetraining.com/2019/04/15/training-lessons-from-the-over-50s/ and https://www.climbing.com/skills/getting-older-heres-what-coach-says-to-do-t... .

I'm not a training expert by any means, but my understanding is that when someone is struggling to recover from training then the usual advice will be one (or more) of the following: 1) reduce training volume, 2) reduce training intensity, and 3) improve recovery practices. Lots of things fall under 3) including making sure you get enough good quality sleep, eating enough protein and other nutrients, and stress management. For example, low vitamin D can reduce muscle recovery, and it is common for people in the UK to have low vitamin D levels during winter, so if you aren't supplementing vitamin D then that could be something to look into. Similarly, if you aren't eating at least 2g protein per kg of body weight daily then that could be something to improve see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4924200/#:~:text=Protein%20Req.... .

In reply to TreeclimbingRob:

I wish you all the best and hope you find what works for you to maximise your recovery.

It does get harder. Aged 60 I could cycle with my 50 year old friend pretty evenly matched.

Aged 70 with him at 60 I have not got a chance of keeping up on multi day rides. And yes, I have tried.

In reply to TreeclimbingRob:

Have a read of Fast after 50, by Joe Friel.

In reply to TreeclimbingRob:

I also turned 60 in November. I joined a gym in October, something I never thought I'd do, and am going regularly and enjoying it. Gains in terms of strength, added muscle and fat reduction are much, much slower than any time I have trained in the past, including a spell I had in my mid 40s.  FWIW I go two or three times a week and totally destroy myself, usually 30 mins warm up and cool down on a bike or treadmill with HIIT once a week and the rest is pumping iron. I couldn't do it every day, but probably could every other day, for now. I'm definitely feeling generally better just now than I did say a year ago. It helps that I'm not working, if I was I doubt I'd have the energy to do it to the same intensity.

As far as recovery goes, I find added protein, in the form of whey powder if necessary, I try to get c.150g per day in me. Getting enough quality sleep is also key. I've also cut down on alcohol, stopped caffeine after mid morning and I drink more water.

I used to have a very physical job, one I returned to for five weeks early last year and it wiped me out, there is no way I could sustain it now and I'm still pretty fit.

In reply to TreeclimbingRob:

OP be very very careful, as it sounds like you are approaching the point where an injury is possible / likely, and at 60+, injuries are very hard to come back from.

Personally, I suggest stopping 'training' and just maintain your health and thus your ability to climb at all.

In reply to TreeclimbingRob:

I found this guy has had some useful information but unfortunately, you have to sit through quite a bit of stuff that isn't.

https://www.youtube.com/@HT-Physio

In reply to TreeclimbingRob:

Having just turned 60, I don't think I've noticed recovery taking much longer. It is just that managing injuries is forcing me to take more days off than I need to recover.

In reply to TreeclimbingRob:

Magnesium supplement is meant to help. No idea if true but isn’t going to do any harm.

In reply to TreeclimbingRob:

I'm 67 and cycle and climb. I try and do a couple of interval training sessions a week on the bike plus lots of z2 and at the moment am also doing 3 indoor sessions a week. The "fast after 50" guy recommends that us oldies continue to do high intensity stuff if safe to do so. I have found I need more rest than I used to .. a power nap after lunch helps I use a HRM and can tell when I need to rest based on HR response. Interestingly I've just discovered indoor climbing is like an interval session with HR getting into z3  .. I had always thought of climbing as strength based and a rest from cardio workouts .. this assumption was proved wrong when I wore the hrm when indoor climbing, and therefor discovered I was overdoing the Z3 stuff when combined with interval training on the bike. 

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

I can understand the possibility of the need for more protein/essential amino acids; but what if these older people are starting to develop other problems, such as renal failure, where too much protein in the diet is likely to make the renal failure worse. 

In reply to UKB Shark:

Magnesium has a bunch of potentially beneficial effects, including reducing blood pressure, assisting sleep, and reducing spasms in tired muscles (which is part of how it helps sleep). There is some evidence that it may boost exercise performance. Given that it contributes to sleepiness best to take it in the evening. Many types of oral magnesium supplements can cause bowel unhappiness in some people, so best to choose the type with care and start cautious on the dose -- or just get it through the skin via gels, sprays, or old-fashioned magnesium bath salts. Personally I take oral magnesium supplements daily.

In reply to TreeclimbingRob:

Thanks for everyone's replies.

Some great advice. My job as a tree surgeon helps but it also tires me out. I only work 3 days a week but some days are brutal. 

I probably need to up my protein on my hard training or work days. 

I've started weight training but not too often.  I'm an ex racing cyclist so still ride a few times a week. I need a 9 day week really 😃

In reply to SXPembs:

Sleep is an issue with me as is stress over the last few months.

Both have a serious effect on recovery but I'm sure I've been struggling with recovery for quite a while.

My workload is going to get more manageable soon so hopefully that will help. 

In reply to PaulW:

Haha, I know that feeling

Are u still climbing regularly? 

I went to the Alps last year for the first time and now I'm hooked. But time is against me now.

In reply to veteye:

Eat more fibre too?

In reply to TreeclimbingRob:

Retirement helps.

In reply to earlsdonwhu:

As long as you can resist not doing too much.

In reply to TreeclimbingRob:

I'm afraid I'm not 60, so I can't relate to your exact situation, but recovery from training is a huge deal. Training itself provides the signal, but recovery is where you get stronger. You of course know that though, hence your question.

Nailing diet and rest has been huge for myself (40 this year). I just don't recover the same way from anything physical anymore. I have had to put real effort into sorting out my diet, which involved cutting out sugar and fat and increasing protein especially. Moving away from very processed foods has been a big one and generally an area where alot of gold can be mined - the book ultra processed people has really helped me.

Sleep has been a real bugger as work (mental) stress has been awful and stopping me from sleep. In your case reducing physical stress may be an area to investigate. Ultimately stress is stress and all detrimental. I know it will be difficult as it's your livelihood, but your body can only sustain so much systemic fatigue before you will effectively be smoked and any workout will cease to be productive. 

As far as the physical training goes, climbing is a strength sport and to improve strength, you need to train maximally and with high quality. If you're pre-fatigued or under-fuelled it just won't be productive. Any tinkering you can do on these things will yield dividends!

Best of luck with it.

In reply to SXPembs:

“cause bowel unhappiness in some people,”

Seconded: I’ve not found out if magnesium works or not because of that particular side effect..

In reply to TreeclimbingRob:

I’d say prioritise recovery then fit all your training around that. Max effort but perhaps shorter sessions. 

In reply to carr0t:

That's interesting. I didn't really notice any need to hold back until I reached fifty. I think I trained hardest and peaked for sport climbing at about 47 or 48. But maybe it's just that I wasn't trying hard enough when younger. As I said earlier, the difference since then I have noticed is in managing niggling injuries rather than recovery as such and maybe dropped a letter grade over my 50's.

I'd love to be as young as 40 and in my prime again!

In reply to TreeclimbingRob:

It's bit like the Doctor's Oath - "First do no Harm"

at 60, you are training to up your climbing grade?  Is that correct?

If so, what sort of training are you doing?

In reply to kaiser:

Sorry, but this is pure defeatism. I´m 64, came back from a serious disc prolapse 3 years ago, refused surgery and forced myself to walk (painfully) 100m more each day; now back to being just as strong as I was before the injury and continuing to train (running, core, hangboarding, stamina interval training on auto belay etc). Sure, I can´t climb/train 6 days a week any more, but I´m certainly not just "maintaining my ability to be able to climb at all". Best onsight lead in the last 40 years E2; gonna get that E3 this summer.

In reply to TreeclimbingRob:

IMHO, stress will eat everything else for breakfast.

This time last year I was stressed due to work and my training took a nose dive. I was still trying to do everything but not only did I plateau, I actually got less fit! Was exhausted a lot of the time. Sort that ASAP (easier said than done)!

If you're stuck with your job, then some mental training on how they switch off when you're not there is useful.

Good luck.

In reply to TreeclimbingRob:

I reckon the biggest issue is motivation.  At 65 after climbing for 47 years I find U.K. climbing pretty boring as I have been too so many places. Most are now rinse and repeat.  Climbing abroad is the only inspiring target !

In reply to McHeath:

Wise words I think! I don't disagree on injury risk, but there in an argument to be made that training becomes more important as you try to maintain as much of your strength and muscle mass for as long as possible. Can't do dumb shit anymore, but the training itself surely has got to be of immense importance

In reply to TreeclimbingRob:

I agree with everyone who has mentioned the relevance of the effects of stress, be it work or private life derived. Also, it is inevitable that as we age, we collect and/or develop various injuries and impediments through mishaps or wear and tear. I've got my fair share and it would be easy to use them as an excuse for not doing what I used to do, but my climbing heroes are people like Andy Parkin and Kev Shields who haven't allowed their significant physical impediments to reduce them to punterdom or golf.

FWIW, I've got osteo-arthritis in my big toe on one foot which limits how far my toe will bend upwards and is occasionally very painful during long walks. It passes though, and I can switch off because I live for long walks so it isn't holding me back. I've got a mate who has a gammy leg from a bike accident when he was young. He can't run, do big hillwalks or ski downhill but he did cross Greenland a few years ago, on nordic skis towing a pulk. 

So I can't do one arm pull ups any more? Well that's because I'm weak and heavy, not because I'm old. Losing weight and getting strong will take much longer but it's not impossible. Or maybe it is, but not bothering to find would be very sad. 

Motivation and feeling positive are sometimes difficult but very important. Avoid negative people who says things like, "You're too old/diminishing returns/time to join the bowling club/etc. Every second you spend listening to them is a second you'll never get back.

In reply to 65:

And you're where?  Prodom?  Herodom?  Expertdom?    Superior to other climber who climb easier routes?

Silly word, silly attitude.  Disrespectful and ignorant of different peoples journeys in the mountains,

In reply to kaiser:

I'm tempted to tell you to wind your neck in but you have a point. However, I wasn't applying it to anyone in general, nor did I imply or make any assertion of my own status. FWIW, I haven't climbed in many years and when I did I very much a punter. The context was more about Andy Parkin in particular next to whom, the vast majority of us are punters. I'd have thought that was clear in my post. 

In reply to Wimlands:

Sorry to hear that. Magnesium can also be absorbed through the skin, so maybe try a magnesium gel or spray? Or just chuck a load of magnesium bath salts in some hot water then submerge some or all of yourself in it. Personally I love a hot bath with magnesium salts (aka epson salts) after a tough training session.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

The Zoe nutrition experts recently put out a podcast on additional protein in the diet. Unless you are very frail and elderly or seriously ill then if you live in the developed world you are already eating far more protein than your body requires. So what does the body do with excess ingested protein you might ask. The proteins are simply converted into carbohydrates and then burned as sugars for energy. So you might as well just be eating pasta etc. The body uses the proteins it needs and simply burns off the surplus.

In reply to Root1:

I listened to that podcast and then did my follow up research and it contradicted what the podcast said. Essentially, most 'normal' people don't need extra protein. If you're training hard, getting older (55+) and what to get hypertrophy gains then extra protein has an effect. I noticed a dramatic difference after training for a year without and then adding additional protein (when I say dramatic, I wasn't getting any real improvements and then I was). 

 

In reply to kaiser:

I had a session with Dave MacLeod discussing just this topic. Historically your advice has been the accepted wisdom (see Neil Gresham's video's and written word on the subject). However, latest research shows that what is needed is actually more power training in order to combat the effects of sarcopenia. Dave said your body will know if it's done too much and as long as you do it in control, there's little reason that you should stop. 

On a related note, gaining and retaining muscle in your late 50s into 60s will pay dividends when you inevitably get ill in your 70s/80s as muscle loss from illness is dramatic and can be irreversible. Current research says muscle mass pays a massive role in health and age predictors (and it contributes to healthy neurotransmitters and hormones etc). i.e. what you do now definitely has the capability of adding years to your life. 

I can't find the paper I studied at the time but here's something that may have references - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-38893-0

In reply to SXPembs:

Are you sure?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4455825/#:~:text=Magnesium&mda....

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Magnesium-HealthProfessional/

In reply to timparkin:

The importance of retaining muscle mass seems to be increasingly emphasised. What I would like to know is whether just being a climber and going to the wall regularly when not outside and regular hill walking is sufficient for this, or should I be doing stuff specific stuff with weights and so on?

Dave is 45 and a pro climber

The OP (remember him?) is a tree surgeon in his 60s.

Apples and Oranges

To use Dave's phrasing, it sounds very much to me like the OP's  body DOES know that it's doing too much.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Weights deffo. 

In reply to TreeclimbingRob:

If you were at your fittest last year maybe you are just over training. You don't get old overnight.

My pennyworth, at 66,is if i don't stretch, which i hate, i am a cripple the next day. 

In reply to kaiser:

He may or may not be a pro athlete but he is leading a life far removed from the average person in terms of physical demands on his body, and that's before we even discuss his age or how much energy he puts into his climbing.

Or it's telling him he needs to address his diet and resting patterns. 

Tim's post re the Zoe recommendations is spot on. The idea that we get all the protein we need from normal eating, whatever that is, is a broad generalisation which really applies to people who eat a healthy and varied diet but don't exercise/work to the levels of intensity that many climbers (and other athletes) and indeed tree surgeons do.

FWIW, I am keeping a watchful eye on how my body feels and functions, mindful of any signs that I'm overdoing the protein. For now, seeing as I am training hard (hypertrophy) three times a week on top of regular hillwalking, biking and running, I'm feeling like I need my 150g per day.

In reply to ian caton:

This. Doing a few simple sun salutes in the morning makes a huge difference to how I feel for the rest of the day. Conversely, so does not doing them, but in a negative direction. Mobility is lost very quickly if you don't challenge you body even a little.

In reply to Root1:that Zoe podcast was some of the most superficial tripe I have heard on what is normally a pretty good source of health and nutrition information. 
The same chap (Christopher Gardner) presented 2 shorts on primal/paleo and predominantly carnivorous diets that amounted to distortions of the ideas behind those approaches and ridicule.

Dr Peter Attia, another recent contributor to Zoe (on exercise and strength training to promote healthy and long old age) had a two and a half hour discussion with a researcher in this field which was totally at odds with Gardner’s complacent advice.

Don Layman sets out in that discussion from an experimental scientific perspective exactly what is wrong with the RDA protein levels, their flawed origins and their original purpose (to establish a minimum protein level to avoid large scale malnutrition in the developing world). In relation to this thread Layman explains that in particular higher protein intake is required to build/maintain muscle and especially so for the over 50’s. The body becomes significantly less able to efficiently utilise protein with age, requiring increased amounts for the same benefits.

The final highlight of the discussion was around the key fact that not all protein has the same beneficial effect. It’s really all about the 9 essential amino acids, not protein. Without getting into that the takeaway appears to be that if you obtain most of your protein from plant sources, you will need a damned sight more than 2 grams of protein per kilo of body weight to have sufficient.

In reply to TreeclimbingRob:

I’ll repeat what I said earlier, which is that climbing is primarily a cardio activity. It puts me into the tempo zone on 6a/6b indoors and threshold when 6c/7a. Ok you need strength as well but when actually climbing you are training endurance and cardio. Fast after fifty Friel finds the biggest benefits for older athletes are maintaining hit with a solid base of z2. No different to other sports

Edit: the only major differences to other ages are increased rest requirement and increased protein intake.

In reply to TreeclimbingRob:

One thing I've noted (I'm 65) but I don't think that anyone else has mentioned is that as you get older the old adage "use it or lose it" becomes very real and increasingly irreversible. Muscles that aren't exercised over a given range of motion quickly lose any strength in that range and become liable to injury. The corollary for me is that you need to mix up what you do much more. Try to modify you exercise regime to (as far as possible) use all your muscles over  their full range of motions. Particularly the antagonistics relative to your 'normal' activities. Over 60 it's time be be a 'jack of all trades rather than a master of one', at least from a training perspective.

In reply to Marek:

Agreed! I think the importance of weight training ( and I am not meaning going to the wall) is also underestimated by climbers generally. in the over 60's.

An interesing thread.

In reply to Marek:

Couldn't agree more. I'm 68 and would have said I was still pretty active with regular climbing and lots of cycling and mountain days out. But this winter I have added some gym sessions including taking a pretty generic 'tone' class that seems to have re-awakened lots of muscle groups obviously untouched by my normal exercise regime. I surprised at what a benefit this has been to my regular activities despite there being no obvious connection between these muscle groups and either walking, cycling or even climbing.

In reply to JimR:

Excuse my ignorance, but what does that mean in plain English? In running terms some sprint intervals as well as general endurance?

In reply to Robert Durran:

I suspect 'hit' was an autocorrect of HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training). Z2 are heart rate zones.

Forgive me if this is a bit Grandmothers and eggs as you may well already know all this, but here's an article:
https://www.runnersworld.com/uk/training/beginners/a760176/heart-rate-train...

In reply to Marek:

This - very much so! After a lifetime of outdoor sport to the age of 35 I packed it all in for family/a more sedentary life (which I thoroughly enjoyed) and when the kids got older I grabbed the chance to go do more sporty stuff and at 52 I am royally f*@ked! A very much sit-down job isn't helping but over the last year I have found that I am literally having to start from scratch with everything, a slow and steady build-up of strength, strectching, and endurance with diet change, weight-loss, and a completely different mindset. A little bit of me wishes I had not entered my early-middle years so complacently but I do know that now is the time for me to lay groundwork for a more healthy and lengthy oder-age - esp when I look at friends and colleagues and the relative state they are in.

Life is now protein, weights, cardio, gentle climbing, a lot of paddle boarding, and a stand-up desk - all of which is boring my wife to tears!

In reply to 65:

Thanks. So looks like the standard recipe of interval training plus steady endurance.

In reply to Jim Lancs:

I have discovered that my retirement lifestyle of, when home based, heading off whenever the forecast is good and then regular longer trips is incompatible with doing any regular "classes". I could easily access a gym though. Can anyone recommend such a workout I could do at my convenience since I'm sure I could benefit from it. Likewise, ideally, some sort of pilates type thing.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Yes, z2 is general endurance which should be 80% of training.

In reply to TreeclimbingRob:

Green Flag would probably help, if you can convince them that it's the car that has broken down.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Maybe find a local pilates or yoga class where you can learn the basics then do it at home, and go back when you either feel you need to progress or get potential bad habits identified. I don't know what the gym at Ratho is like or how it operates but you could go to a trainer and ask for an introduction to weight training without having to turn up to classes. It might be a good time for UKC to get Dave Mac or someone older to do an article on strength training for us oldies. 

One thing I bought from Decathlon that I quite like is a weight vest. I wear it for squats and press-ups, I look forward to the day I can use it for pull ups as well. I'm needing more weight for squats now but I can do that at the gym and I tend not to do squats to failure. A set of dumbbells would be a good investment and I'd like an incline/decline bench but I don't really have the space for one.

In reply to Robert Durran:

If you download the Gymshark app, which is free, there are loads of prebuilt workout for all sorts. Lots have videos and a set of workouts that go with them. You can also create your own workouts based on the kit that's available in the gym, or exercises you like.

In reply to dread-i:

The advantage of taking a 'class' from time to time is that you're made to do some exercises you don't 'like' and that's where I found the advantages have come over a self programmed gym session of things you like / are good at / or you believe are 'relevant'.

But the caution with any gym class or training app session, is that it needs to be appropriate for older people. I have taken heed of this physio (https://www.youtube.com/@HT-Physio) and avoided exercises that he has seen to exacerbate problems in older people. It leaves plenty of alternatives!

In reply to BRILLBRUM:

Resurrecting this thread for a moment to share how my body is out to kill me:

Caught a cold, snot and coughing, not going anywhere soon, now in to my third week.

Walked dog at the weekend, sneezed, scared dog, dog panicked and yanked lead. Threw my back out at the base.

spent the week on NSAID’s and Codeine with liberal amounts of tiger balm. It hurts to cough , sneeze, stand, laugh, anything for that matter.

A week of holding myself in the least uncomfortable position, being super tense, has now lead to whatever position/stance I’ve been compensating with giving me an aching arse cheek and left hip.

In reply to BRILLBRUM:

Yes, it can all seem a bit like Father Ted's car at times. 

Due to an enforced period of inactivity with a hamstring issue I have gone back to my rather neglected (when fully active) Bulgarian squats for my arthritic knees but this seems to have reignited my sciatica.